| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Skills getting refined was one of the biggest things I wanted to see in Unchained, how did they do?
What does the consolidated list look like? What about the expanded one with background skills?
I've also heard about these things called skill unlocks, my guess is that they work like skill tricks once you hit a certain number of ranks. Are they any good?
|
Consolidated Skill List:
Acrobatics
Athletics
Finesse
Influence
Nature
Perception
Performance
Religion
Society
Spellcraft
Stealth
Survival
Suggestion: Halve all skill points from class and INT (round down)
New Skills:
Artistry (INT)
Lore (INT)
Background Skills
Appraise
Artistry
Craft
Handle Animal
Knowledge (engineering)
Knowledge (geography)
Knowledge (history)
Knowledge (nobility)
Linguistics
Lore
Perform
Profession
Sleight of Hand
Suggestion: +2 skill points per level for background skills only
Are there broken down lists of how these are consolidated, or do they have their own lists of DCs and various checks?
Are there any skills whose ability switched to something else?
How does spellcraft work with knowledge arcana? Is spellcrafting actually just a check like concentration?
|
I love the background skills approach. If i understand well Joe Farmer fighter with 7 Int used to be able to just take one rank (let's say he took climb).
Now regardless of his low Int he gets two additional ranks in background skills. Now he can plow his fields (profession farmer) and repair his cow fences (profession carpenter)
Great great great addition to the game. Bards will now get sicker via versatile performance as they can use these two bonus points for perform...
Hmm... I might tweak the number of skill points, but seems like a decent change... On a different note... Linguistics is considered a background skill? Hah! I'm taking that one every single time!
I'm more interested in the consolidated skills.
I am curious whether or not there is a new character sheet that exists for it.
I'd also like a clarification of the consolidated skills, also...what are the 'skill groups', if you can list/explain them?
|
Your consolidated skills are:
- Acrobatics (Dex) - Folds Acrobatics (except for jumping), Escape Artist, Fly, and Ride.
- Athletics (Str) - Folds Acrobatics (when jumping), Climb, and Swim.
- Finesse (Dex, trained only) - Folds Disable Device and Sleight of Hand.
- Influence (Cha) - Folds Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate.
- Nature (Int, trained only) - Folds Handle Animal, Knowledge (Dungeoneering), Knowledge (Geography), and Knowledge (Nature).
- Perception (Wis) - Folds Perception and Sense Motive.
- Performance (Cha) - Folds Disguise and Perform.
- Religion (Int, trained only) - Folds Knowledge (Planes) and Knowledge (Religion).
- Society (Int, trained only) - Folds Knowledge (History), Knowledge (Local), Knowledge (Nobility), and Linguistics.
- Spellcraft (Int, trained only) - Folds Knowledge (Arcana), Spellcraft, and Use Magic Device.
- Stealth (Dex) - Has not changed.
- Survival (Wis) - Folds Heal and Survival.
Appraise, Craft, Knowledge (Engineering), and Profession disappear when you use the consolidated skills.
And finesse included Use Rope!!!!!!
One can only dream.
Thanks for the breakdown.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think the consolidated system is interesting, but maybe a little bit too consolidated for my tastes. Rather than implement all of it, I think I'm going to use the Background skill system but adapt in Athletics and Performance from Consolidated. Disguise makes sense for an actor, and combining climb and swim makes them less underwhelming.
On the flip side, Joe Farmer Fighter looks like he needs a 14 Int before he can put ranks in any of the primary skills beyond Perception.
I see why the 'halve all skills from class and INT' is there-- don't want the classes getting all of the skills all of the time-- but it'll have some repercussions.
That's only if you use Consolidated Skills. It's pretty unlikely that any given table would use that AND Background Skills since they work at cross-purposes.
*skill list*
Wait, wait, wait...
Hold on...
Let me get this straight.
UMD works off int now...
What. Really?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I remember seeing something about an automatic progression skill system with specializations on down the line. Could we get a bit more preview on that system?
Skill Groups
You pick a few groups of skills depending on your class. You count has having 1/2 your level ranks in every skill in those groups.Then you pick a number of specialized skills based on your Int modifier and for those skills you are considered to have your level in Ranks. If a skill is a class skill you still get the +3
So for example Joe the Fighter with 10 Int he gets 2 Groups at 1st level and 1 specialized skill
For Groups he takes; Physical (Acrobatics, Climb, Escape Artist, Fly, Ride, Swim) and Thieving (Disable Device, Disguise, Sleight of Hand,
Stealth, Use Magic Device) His is considered to have 1/2 his level ranks in every single one of those skills.
For his one Specialize Skill he takes Intimidate. He is considered to have his Level in ranks in that.
Any Skill that is inclass for a Fighter gets +3
Every Even level he gets a new Specialty Skill
at 10th level he gets a new Group
So at 20th level (assuming no intelligence increase) he'll have 3 groups of skills all considered to be 10 ranks, and 11 Specialty Skills all considered to have 20 Ranks
Skill Groups also has a sidebar on how to integrate this system with Background skills or the Consolidated skills if you want to use those as well
|
I remember seeing something about an automatic progression skill system with specializations on down the line. Could we get a bit more preview on that system?Skill Groups
You pick a few groups of skills depending on your class. You count has having 1/2 your level ranks in every skill in those groups.
Then you pick a number of specialized skills based on your Int modifier and for those skills you are considered to have your level in Ranks. If a skill is a class skill you still get the +3So for example Joe the Fighter with 10 Int he gets 2 Groups at 1st level and 1 specialized skill
For Groups he takes; Physical (Acrobatics, Climb, Escape Artist, Fly, Ride, Swim) and Thieving (Disable Device, Disguise, Sleight of Hand,
Stealth, Use Magic Device) His is considered to have 1/2 his level ranks in every single one of those skills.For his one Specialize Skill he takes Intimidate. He is considered to have his Level in ranks in that.
Any Skill that is inclass for a Fighter gets +3
Every Even level he gets a new Specialty Skill
at 10th level he gets a new Group
So at 20th level (assuming no intelligence increase) he'll have 3 groups of skills all considered to be 10 ranks, and 11 Specialty Skills all considered to have 20 Ranks
Well less level by level flexibility, but wow that's a lot more skill points than normal (220+ vs 20).
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
It makes the math and keeping track of things easier.
I was afraid it was going to limit the amount of skills people would be using, but this is probably my favorite of the new skill systems yet.So what bonus does having a 8/6/4/2+int change in that formula or anything at all?
How many Skill Points you had under the old system determines how many Skill groups you get and how quickly you get more. Int influences how many specialized skills you get (You get 1/2 your Int bonus as extra specialties).
For Example
Rogue (8+skills) will start with 3 groups and end up with 5 by level 20,
Bard (6+skills) starts with 3 and ends with 4
Barbarian (4+skills) starts with 2 and ends with 4
and Fighter (2+skills) Starts with 2 and ends with 3
Considering there is only 6 skill groups the Rogue ends up being able to do a little bit of pretty much everything
On the Int Bonus, it adds to your Specialized Skills. Regardless of Class any characters with the same Int. are going to have the same number of Specialty skills.
Compaired to Joe the Fighter, Sid the Wizard (2+skill) will start with 2 Groups(We'll say Scholar and Social) like the fighter but (assuming 18 Int) gets 3 Specialized skills. (1 base + 1/2 Int Modifier as bonus). Let's say Spellcraft, Perception and Knowledge (Arcana).
He has Spellcraft and all the Knowledges under the Scholar Group already but he wants that extra in Arcana. Not much difference at 1st level but becomes pretty big as the game progresses
Hm, interesting.
So far, I like this option, it seems to suit skill-monkey lovers like me, at least from what you've described.
What can you tell us about the specific skill groups?
You've said there are 6; so 4 of them are:
Physical (Acrobatics, Climb, Escape Artist, Fly, Ride, Swim)
Scholar
Social
Thieving (Disable Device, Disguise, Sleight of Hand, Stealth, Use Magic Device)
Can you tell us what the others are and what skills are grouped within all of them?
Can you explain how the class skill ranks convert? Obviously, a Rogue can't get 8 Skill Groups if there's only 6.
Aaaaggggghhhhh! The 29th can't get here fast enough for me!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
There is a chart. Shows how many groups you get depending on your level and how many skill points your class used to get.
Groups are
Natural
Perceptive
Physical
Scholarly
Social
Thievery
Some have more skills than others (Perceptive only gets 2 skills; Perception and Sense Motive) so some groups are gonna get grabbed as the "More bang for your Buck" choice
Hm. So, presumably Scholarly has the knowledge and magic skills, Social the interactive ones and Natural the survival & KN: nature style ones (or, perhaps, all the ones listed under Nature in the 'consolidated skills' list).
So, take a skill heavy group and make Perception (comment by my husband: THE most overused skill in the game) one of your specialties?
Given the comment that you still get the +3 to class Skills, I presume they still exist, but that there's no restriction on the groups you can take.
Still interested.
Hm. So, presumably Scholarly has the knowledge and magic skills, Social the interactive ones and Natural the survival & KN: nature style ones (or, perhaps, all the ones listed under Nature in the 'consolidated skills' list).
So, take a skill heavy group and make Perception (comment by my husband: THE most overused skill in the game) one of your specialties?
Given the comment that you still get the +3 to class Skills, I presume they still exist, but that there's no restriction on the groups you can take.
Still interested.
Specialty grants 1/2 max ranks, groups grants 1/2 max as well, and they stack. So you have to take Perceptive for full Perception.
Specialty grants 1/2 max ranks, groups grants 1/2 max as well, and they stack. So you have to take Perceptive for full Perception.Hm. So, presumably Scholarly has the knowledge and magic skills, Social the interactive ones and Natural the survival & KN: nature style ones (or, perhaps, all the ones listed under Nature in the 'consolidated skills' list).
So, take a skill heavy group and make Perception (comment by my husband: THE most overused skill in the game) one of your specialties?
Given the comment that you still get the +3 to class Skills, I presume they still exist, but that there's no restriction on the groups you can take.
Still interested.
Ah. Still, CAN you take a specialty skill you don't have the Group Skill for?
Specialty grants 1/2 max ranks, groups grants 1/2 max as well, and they stack. So you have to take Perceptive for full Perception.Hm. So, presumably Scholarly has the knowledge and magic skills, Social the interactive ones and Natural the survival & KN: nature style ones (or, perhaps, all the ones listed under Nature in the 'consolidated skills' list).
So, take a skill heavy group and make Perception (comment by my husband: THE most overused skill in the game) one of your specialties?
Given the comment that you still get the +3 to class Skills, I presume they still exist, but that there's no restriction on the groups you can take.
Still interested.
Ah. Still, CAN you take a specialty skill you don't have the Group Skill for?
Yes
it's like Mark said
Specialty outside of Group you know = 1/2 your level in ranks
Specialty inside a Group you know = Your Level in Ranks.
I had it wrong earlier with Joe. (comes from skimming PDF instead of having actual book in my hands)
OK, one more question: Does every class gain new Groups at 10th, or does it vary by class? From your example, it looks like the Rogue and the Barbarian each got 1 more group than the others you listed.
OK, one more question: Does every class gain new Groups at 10th, or does it vary by class? From your example, it looks like the Rogue and the Barbarian each got 1 more group than the others you listed.
4 skill and 8 skill classes get a new group at 8th and 18th while the 2 and 6 skill classes only get a new group at 10th.
If you multiclass you use the Lowest Skill class to determine how many groups you get, but you don't loose a group if you have too many.
They give an example of a 6th level rogue (3 Groups) taking levels in Druid (normally 2 groups at 7th) He stays at 3 groups. He doesn't get a 4th group until 18th, when a Druid would get it.
Had he stayed pure rogue he would get the 4th group at 8th
OK, one more question: Does every class gain new Groups at 10th, or does it vary by class? From your example, it looks like the Rogue and the Barbarian each got 1 more group than the others you listed.
4 skill and 8 skill classes get a new group at 8th and 18th while the 2 and 6 skill classes only get a new group at 10th.
If you multiclass you use the Lowest Skill class to determine how many groups you get, but you don't loose a group if you have too many.
They give an example of a 6th level rogue (3 Groups) taking levels in Druid (normally 2 groups at 7th) He stays at 3 groups. He doesn't get a 4th group until 18th, when a Druid would get it.
Had he stayed pure rogue he would get the 4th group at 8th
Thank you. I'll have to wait until I get the book to get all the details, but so far, I like how this seems to be shaking out.
Weird, though: 4 & 8 grouped together, then 2 & 6. You'd think it would go 2 & 4, 6 & 8.
I loathe consolidated skills. If I was going to do anything, I would split some of the current ones back up.
The only ones I like are Athletics & Influence. I'd used Athletics in the past and I think combining Bluff, Diplomacy, & Intimidate makes sense.
OK, one more question: Does every class gain new Groups at 10th, or does it vary by class? From your example, it looks like the Rogue and the Barbarian each got 1 more group than the others you listed.4 skill and 8 skill classes get a new group at 8th and 18th while the 2 and 6 skill classes only get a new group at 10th.
Huh? Why does the guys with 4 skills get more skill groups than the ones with 6 skill points? Shouldn't the latter be more skilled than the former?
I loathe consolidated skills. If I was going to do anything, I would split some of the current ones back up.
I support this.
TO make skills valuable you force characters to make choices on which ones are valuable.
Then you give the Rogue more skill points then anyone and anything, so he can take ALL the valuable skills.
To stop high INT shenanigans, put Int caps on non-class skills you can acquire. Stops the 32 Int wizard from grabbing a bunch of non-class skills, and lets him focus on the Craft/Profession/Knowledge skills which are the standard forte of the smart, high level wizard. If he wants to be non-conventional, make him pay for it.
Skills should be valuable. They aren't valuable if its easy for everyone to get anything.
That was the beauty of cross-class skills from 3E. You had to pay to get things that weren't natural for your class. Rogues, with the broadest skill list, never had to pay that price, and had the most skills out of that list. Nobody could rival them in breadth.
And of course, the big thing with skills is that skill Ranks need to be more important then skill Bonus. The Unlocks seem to be based on Ranks, which is good. Skills have been needing things like this for a long time.
==Aelryinth
Huh. The athletics grouping is one of the ones I'd more split.I loathe consolidated skills. If I was going to do anything, I would split some of the current ones back up.The only ones I like are Athletics & Influence. I'd used Athletics in the past and I think combining Bluff, Diplomacy, & Intimidate makes sense.
That's the fun of options; you can split skills, I can combine them. If I'm playing in a game you run with those rules, I'll follow them, and if you played in mine I'd expect you to use my version. We're both right in our own worlds/versions.
I loathe consolidated skills. If I was going to do anything, I would split some of the current ones back up.I support this.
TO make skills valuable you force characters to make choices on which ones are valuable.
Then you give the Rogue more skill points then anyone and anything, so he can take ALL the valuable skills.
To stop high INT shenanigans, put Int caps on non-class skills you can acquire. Stops the 32 Int wizard from grabbing a bunch of non-class skills, and lets him focus on the Craft/Profession/Knowledge skills which are the standard forte of the smart, high level wizard. If he wants to be non-conventional, make him pay for it.
Skills should be valuable. They aren't valuable if its easy for everyone to get anything.
That was the beauty of cross-class skills from 3E. You had to pay to get things that weren't natural for your class. Rogues, with the broadest skill list, never had to pay that price, and had the most skills out of that list. Nobody could rival them in breadth.
And of course, the big thing with skills is that skill Ranks need to be more important then skill Bonus. The Unlocks seem to be based on Ranks, which is good. Skills have been needing things like this for a long time.
==Aelryinth
Whereas I *hated* the cross-class double cost. I understand the logic behind it...your job (class) requires specific skills that you concentrate on, to the exclusion of others, so it takes more effort to learn them. I just believe that Pathfinder's +3 reflects that better...you've trained so long in your class skills that they're second nature to you, background info you can access easily, so while the cross-class skills may take the same effort, you'll never have the same instinctual understanding of them.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The problem is that you take another class, you pick up the class skills bonus free forever. IT's like a bunch of free skill focuses, no matter when you assign the skill points.
Whereas cross-class skills cost depended on what class you were in when you took the skills. It was always double cost. And that cost was the key part. level 20, get 10 ranks in stealth or 20 ranks in knowledge (Nature)? Make them pay, make them realize skills are valuable.
It is why rogues and fighters look so pale next to magical classes. They get all their unique stuff and magic, and fighters and rogues get feats and skills, which every class gets and believes they should get more of. Only the other classes get feats which only their classes can take, and fighters and rogues generally don't (as Extra Talent can be taken by other classes).
To make skills valuable, they have to have a price, and the trend has been to reduce the price, not increase it.
Ergo, skill guys have less and less use in this system.
==Aelryinth
So, where Craft(Alchemy) and Craft(Poison) enters in the consolidated skill list?
Edit: quoted the wrong post; meant to quote Metal Sonic
From what I've seen so far: Appraise, Craft, Knowledge (Engineering), and Profession disappear when you use the consolidated skills, though you can use them as Background Skills if you still want them.
So, where Craft(Alchemy) and Craft(Poison) enters in the consolidated skill list?
Most likely into "Spellcraft" and "Nature" respectively.
Thanks. I'm gonna start soon a campaing based on Iron Gods, so I have to need the following skill.
Technology (Int): Folds Craft (Mechanical) and Knowledge (Engineering).
Huh? Why does the guys with 4 skills get more skill groups than the ones with 6 skill points? Shouldn't the latter be more skilled than the former?OK, one more question: Does every class gain new Groups at 10th, or does it vary by class? From your example, it looks like the Rogue and the Barbarian each got 1 more group than the others you listed.4 skill and 8 skill classes get a new group at 8th and 18th while the 2 and 6 skill classes only get a new group at 10th.
What was left out is that the 2 and 4 skill classes start with 2 groups each and the 6 and 8 skill classes start with 3 groups each, so the 6 skill classes are ahead of the 4 skill classes for 15 out of 20 levels and even for the remaining 5.
The problem is that you take another class, you pick up the class skills bonus free forever. IT's like a bunch of free skill focuses, no matter when you assign the skill points.
Whereas cross-class skills cost depended on what class you were in when you took the skills. It was always double cost. And that cost was the key part. level 20, get 10 ranks in stealth or 20 ranks in knowledge (Nature)? Make them pay, make them realize skills are valuable.
It is why rogues and fighters look so pale next to magical classes. They get all their unique stuff and magic, and fighters and rogues get feats and skills, which every class gets and believes they should get more of. Only the other classes get feats which only their classes can take, and fighters and rogues generally don't (as Extra Talent can be taken by other classes).
To make skills valuable, they have to have a price, and the trend has been to reduce the price, not increase it.
Ergo, skill guys have less and less use in this system.
==Aelryinth
Interesting point: I suspect that part of the issue is (as per a different thread) the removal of the training requirement. When you auto-level during an adventure (as per most d20 games currently) it is a bit hard to justify the +3 suddenly appearing. I'm almost tempted to say multi-class requires training in the new class.
Thanks. I'm gonna start soon a campaing based on Iron Gods, so I have to need the following skill.
Technology (Int): Folds Craft (Mechanical) and Knowledge (Engineering).
I would recommend calling it Mechanics and have it include Disable Device, Craft (Traps), and actually have a skill dedicated to controlling and fixing vehicles.
So I look at the consolidated list and I realize that they did what I was trying to do on my own a while back.
I never got around to actually finishing my system though.
You know I really like the condensed skill list. It seems much easier in play and solves the problem of certain skills that rarely get used. But on the other hand it's a pretty big overhaul to the system (every trait and feat needs to get updated to refer to the new skill or you need to have a translation list) and the class abilities (such as a bard's well versed) also need to be updated or swapped out.
I'd love this skill system if it was built into the core game, but as a hot-pluggable ability not so much (at least based on descriptions here for it). That said I really like the background skills as a sneaky way of giving everyone 2 extra skill points without letting them load up even more on the "good" skills. I'll definitely be implementing that.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm more of a fan that consolidating skills is a feat a character should take.
IMC, it's a fighter technique. A Mundane (no-magic) fighter who takes Skill Focus (Athletics) as a Training Technique groups all skill points invested in those skills (Climb, Swim, Jump, Acrobatics) into one skill, saving skill points (max = level, of course!).
It's a backhanded way of leveraging skill points that only Rogues can also use.
He can do the same with Smithing skills, Command Skills (Diplomacy/Intimidate), Student of War (Prof/Solider, Knowledge (history)), and Monster Lore (Consolidates skill points for knowledge checks about monsters, but must have at least one point in each skill being folded in), and so forth.
He also adds his Expertise to Int-based checks of many types as he levels...he's just that good that he can indeed play chess with an archmage.
==Aelryinth