| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Hi there,
Im about to starter WotW and haven't seen any threads like this one. Basically what i seek is the things that you changed to make AP work better as well as thing you in retrospect should have changed.
Thanks for your input
Well part of the reason you haven't seen the thread, may be because it wasnt needed?
I think many many of the things that would get said are due to play style of each party and GM, which in turn means it would be useless information from group to group the majority of the time. Like for us, we were running an extra person in the party so most of the encounters were rather easy. It wasn't a problem due to the AP, but one of us not playing the AP as intended. The encounters needed to be "buffed" a bit to compensate for the larger party. But that would be common practice/a necessity for any adventure with a larger than intended party.
The AP was very solidly written (at least the 3 I played through before RL interfered with our groups gaming in general). If you are new to GM'ing you may want to look into do's/dont's for new GM's to get an idea of what it expect in general. If you are experienced at the game, my suggestion would be to read the adventure through at least once, and definitely at least the first two books, as I believe the second has information pertinent to the first book of the adventure (and might help the big picture on your end).
It really depends upon whether your players have a brain or not. The group I am in are just starting Book 6, and we did a lot that the AP as written wasn't ready for. Unfortunately we have a new GM, so there was a lot that he wasn't ready for either. Before you start each each book, you need to read it thoroughly and keep in mind what your players do, and what the AP says happens.
We had cases where the AP said this happens at this time to surprise us, but we had thoroughly explored the area, so there shouldn't have been a surprise. (The critter that has been living for years in an area, isn't discovered by the party that explores they area, because it is supposed to surprise the party later.)
A lot of the AP is written as if the players are idiots, and won't do anything to prepare. Other parts are written as if the PCs will automatically do this, even though it is pretty stupid. So you as the GM have to be willing to handle things on the fly.
One thing I don't like was the plague being released against everyone. I understand the antagonist don't really like those in charge, but I would expect for LE bad guys to not commit what seems like a chaotic act to me. It also assumes they don't have any friends or relatives still alive that could be harmed by this. I don't write out relatives normally when I make a background story, but I still assume I have somebody that is alive that is important to me. If I run it the players will have to make a deliberate attempt to spread it to everyone.
Hi there,
Im about to starter WotW and haven't seen any threads like this one. Basically what i seek is the things that you changed to make AP work better as well as thing you in retrospect should have changed.
Thanks for your input
Greetings. I've many suggestions for you. Please, emphasize the plots and elements you find problematics and you would wish to change.
I've made a bunch of the characters in the story into women. Coming from the great diversity in Paizo's product the huge sausagefest that is Way of the Wicked kinda caught me off guard.
I've made a bunch of the characters in the story into women. Coming from the great diversity in Paizo's product the huge sausagefest that is Way of the Wicked kinda caught me off guard.
I don't concur with your considerations. I believe Way of the wicked has got a good ratio. My consideration is however on the passive role of the female characters. As such, i've creater and introduced early on another "long term enemy". On book 1, however, the situation is actually full of man since the places are: a prison, a viking ship and a castle of soldiers
WoTW is 3rd party. It is not Paizo.
That having been said I'm having fun running it so far.
My group is starting on book 2.
Words of advice:
The authors have not thought of everything (not that I expected them to...).
Give all the enemies full HP.
If you allow a group greater than 4, add (way) more enemies.
If your group is smart, they will out-think a few of the encounters.
Prepare to think on your feet. Some of the encounters are written to go a certain way. There isn't any consideration for different scenarios, so be ready for wrenches to be thrown in to the mix.
I recommend, especially with this story because of the evil alignments, you should SERIOUSLY enforce RP consequences for in-game blunders/choices.
That will probably be the most challenge to your group overall, in interaction with each other and the NPCs on your group's side. Remember they are E V I L. Remember any time they've shown weakness and to whom.
USE IT.
Just my 2 cp.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I've made a bunch of the characters in the story into women. Coming from the great diversity in Paizo's product the huge sausagefest that is Way of the Wicked kinda caught me off guard.I don't concur with your considerations. I believe Way of the wicked has got a good ratio. My consideration is however on the passive role of the female characters. As such, i've creater and introduced early on another "long term enemy". On book 1, however, the situation is actually full of man since the places are: a prison, a viking ship and a castle of soldiers
I've only GM'd through book 1 so far so I can't speak for the later books, but I can assure you that if Paizo had written it there would be female guards in Branderscar and female captains in Balentyne. For sure, it wouldn't be written so that the only female characters your party is expected to speak to are a sexy seducer devil and a sexy seducer witch.
You'll be happy to know in book 2 some of the main protagonists are female. Alot of the members of various "adventurer" enemies the PCs have to fight are women.
The leader of the other knot is female, btw. She was introduced in book one. She is not a tart.
She used a spell not her "charms" to get into the prison. Any male could have done that so I don't find it all that seductive. Now of course nobody who can change shape at will is likely to change into a normal looking person so it makes sense for her change to be aesthetic. I know if I could change my general appearance I would look better than average.
And I dont think Paizo would have neccesarily had any female guards at at all. Maybe the guy transporting the PC's would have been a female however. Women are not generally known as pirate captains so it would have been a good chance to do something different.
I do think she needs more personality though, but I think I can take care of that as a GM, or at least I will try.
I've only GM'd through book 1 so far so I can't speak for the later books, but I can assure you that if Paizo had written it there would be female guards in Branderscar and female captains in Balentyne. For sure, it wouldn't be written so that the only female characters your party is expected to speak to are a sexy seducer devil and a sexy seducer witch.I've made a bunch of the characters in the story into women. Coming from the great diversity in Paizo's product the huge sausagefest that is Way of the Wicked kinda caught me off guard.I don't concur with your considerations. I believe Way of the wicked has got a good ratio. My consideration is however on the passive role of the female characters. As such, i've creater and introduced early on another "long term enemy". On book 1, however, the situation is actually full of man since the places are: a prison, a viking ship and a castle of soldiers
I will concur that Book 1 is not well written on that front (I, as example, made Tiadora pretend to be a weeping daughter of one of the older pcs. It was memorable). However, I found difficult in the environment of the book to justify a better proportion in a military environment such Balentire or a Viking ship. If you wanna a better proportion, i suggest for the next book the following.
1-make the nuns of Cinthya Cereste a more active side (pcs have to get there do gain better intel of the horn, and if they do to much asmodean things, then the saint herself may rise to face them). the saint may lead with sir Richard the last attack
2-make the Lillend be the leader of the green banner
3-make the baron of vandermir either the baroness or enphatize the role of lady Marsten in her quest to control the commerc of all the borderlands.
4-shift Ezra the wraith with sympathetic crazy witchfire with wraith like proprieties that can made people will of wisp's. she could be "Ezralda, the bright death"
Women are not generally known as pirate captains so it would have been a good chance to do something different.
Uhh... The most successful pirate ever was a woman. There are plenty of other examples as well. Being outside the law and traditional roles, the profession was pretty open to any women that were good with a sword (which, despite the modern narrative, was quite a few).
So, i'll now say something about things to change for way of the wicked. I'll not put a spoiler tag since i believe this is a GM topic.
Book 1
1 - Make Thorn's Contract a bidding one, with powers analogue to a Geas/Quest. Now pcs cannot directly hurt or attack each other, nor they can separate more than x miles without prior notification (this will immediatly set up a climate of reverence/hate towards their patron)
2 - possibly skip the nine lessons, but instead have them show their skill in a similar quest, like taking something from the cripts of Variston with the surprise of sir Balin prisoner inside those. the reward for this should be proper equipment and intelligence for their own scene - the cloistered situation of book 1 its too strong otherwise.
3 - introduce, aside of Tiadora, other Npcs that can work as Thorn's middle tier minions and can become interesting contacts for the next books, maybe located in different cities.
4 - Allow, at your disception, a few sidequests in the north under Sakkaroth direction - this allows your players to get neat gear and introduces the factions of sakkaroth army, like the polar bears of the ice trolls or similar strange beings.
5 - About Balentyne, use the materials for book 7 and then simply let your players enjoy the sandbox. if you wish to do something extra, you can have them suggested to "create" an emergency to move away from the keep a good chunk of the personnel - like, for example, a zombie dragon whose corpse was found in the north with the instrument needed to make it an 1-shot undead horror - if it attacks a village next to balentine, i can well see the captain send like 40 troops and the wizard with the fireballs to face the beast, leaving Balentyne severely weakened.
Tomorrow i shall say something about book 2
At the moment I'm DMing book 1. What's wrong with the subsystem for minions in book 2? I've read through it and it doesn't seem bad at a glance.
|
I've only GM'd through book 1 so far so I can't speak for the later books, but I can assure you that if Paizo had written it there would be female guards in Branderscar and female captains in Balentyne. For sure, it wouldn't be written so that the only female characters your party is expected to speak to are a sexy seducer devil and a sexy seducer witch.I've made a bunch of the characters in the story into women. Coming from the great diversity in Paizo's product the huge sausagefest that is Way of the Wicked kinda caught me off guard.I don't concur with your considerations. I believe Way of the wicked has got a good ratio. My consideration is however on the passive role of the female characters. As such, i've creater and introduced early on another "long term enemy". On book 1, however, the situation is actually full of man since the places are: a prison, a viking ship and a castle of soldiers
Yeah, this has been a major problem for me when running book 1. It's really jarring after running so much PFS to find the utter lack of female NPCs in the adventure.
Women mentioned in Book 1 (and the Aldencross section of Book 7):
- Tiadora - handmaiden devil npc
- Elise Zadaria - winter witch, head of rival group
- Mama Giuseppe - old woman who makes soup for the guards
- Kathryn Mott - wife of the one watch captain, sleeping with another watch captain on the side
- Alicia - wife of the owner of the Lord's Dalliance
- Actors in the play
- Prostitutes in the Lord's Dalliance
- Giggling Jenny - a fae prankster at the graveyard
Out of all of these, the only one who is a major NPC is Tiadora, and she's only relevant for the first act. (She's in the second act too, but she plays a small role.) Elise plays a role in Book 2, but her time here is mostly left as a plot hook for the GM to fill.
Mama Giuseppe and Kathryn Mott are both interesting in the fact that you can use them to get at the important people, but they themselves aren't important. Alicia and Giggling Jenny are barely mentioned. The book goes out of it's way to mention that the women actors are very unusual in the country.
The entire premise of this adventure path hinges on the idea that Talingarde is a good country. Obvious sexism doesn't just sour the experience for some players and make others feel unwelcome, it hurts the idea that this country is supposed to be good and that the PCs are evil.
(And this isn't even touching the anti-gay line in Book 7.)
That being said, the social aspects of Talingarde are really my only big problem with Way of the Wicked. The adventure is well-written otherwise. And it's simple enough for me to change those aspects to what I want. (I've been switching the gender of some of my NPCs based on the gender of appropriate pawns for them - thus why both Joseph-calls-fire-from-water and White Tusk became female for me.)
I can't say it makes much sense to have women working in prisons. As far as I know we don't have too many of those in real life either.
I can definitely see how this could be problematic in Fort Balentyne though since over there we shouldn't see any bias against women. The promotion ladder at the fort is meritocracy style, so the only "in universe" explanation would be that no women had the opportunity to show their merit or didn't have it. Though I guess another explanation would be that the Paladin leader guy didn't want any lustful acts or sexual tensions inside his fort, which would be a realistic consequence of a mixed sex installation.
Book 2 has a lot of female NPCs though when you you begin meeting adventuring parties.
|
|
I can't say it makes much sense to have women working in prisons. As far as I know we don't have too many of those in real life either.
I can definitely see how this could be problematic in Fort Balentyne though since over there we shouldn't see any bias against women. The promotion ladder at the fort is meritocracy style, so the only "in universe" explanation would be that no women had the opportunity to show their merit or didn't have it. Though I guess another explanation would be that the Paladin leader guy didn't want any lustful acts or sexual tensions inside his fort, which would be a realistic consequence of a mixed sex installation.
Book 2 has a lot of female NPCs though when you you begin meeting adventuring parties.
Yeah, I'm not as worried as much about Branderscar - there's only two named NPCs, and it's easy enough to call out some of the prison guards as women. (It's especially weird that there would be no women guards if there were women PCs to be guarded, but it's easy enough to describe some of the guards as women.)
You can have lustful acts and sexual tension in an all-male fort too. And in reality, a strong leader should be able to deal with those problems. The only problem I could see would be sleeping quarters for the different genders, and it's easy enough to draw a dividing wall so that they are in different rooms. I've been a part of Boy Scout camp staffs that have been able to deal with romantic situations with fair amounts of competence. Portraying Balentyne as not being able to deal with that either paints them as sexist or not competent, neither of which I want to do as both cheapen the PCs victory.
The entire premise of this adventure path hinges on the idea that Talingarde is a good country. Obvious sexism doesn't just sour the experience for some players and make others feel unwelcome, it hurts the idea that this country is supposed to be good and that the PCs are evil.
I disagree. I think the entire premise is that Talingarde is a bigoted, misogynistic, single religion tyranny....masquerading as a "good" country.
You know, like most of medieval Europe.
In this vein, it may be the clear intention to use women (so to speak) to illustrate this.
|
|
But if Talingarde isn't actually good, what's the point? Players get opportunity after opportunity to defeat evil or otherwise hugely flawed evil organizations - including entire countries. The Adventure Path is billed on the fact that we're an evil group taking down a good country. Why cheapen that by having the good country turn out to be pretty s&!#ty? Let the players be evil to the fullest extent.
Besides, I see no reason to base things on medieval Europe when we can get a better story by changing things.
Guys, i would like to suggest to avoid this topic from now on. this is a post about what should be changed of Wotw in game terms, not about the lack of female compelling characters in those books. However, since this topic seems to inspire interest, i will say something about it.
1) Wotw was written with the idea of a group of evil people acting through revenge and causing widespread destruction. I believe that, for this first reason, the presence of females and children was kept low in order to allow this feeling without any moral backlash - it's the typical "mook effect", that identifies the enemy as a phalanx of lone, non binded subjects that we are "allowed to kill" - like goblins, bugbears, and such.
2) The lack of females is also due to the proporsion that would have worked in a medieval country which Talingarde is heavily inspired. This is not due to cultural facts (i don't think people of Talingarde follow aristotelism) unless they get it from the asmodean phylosophy, which is somewhat against women, but probably due to the reality that, without a proper training regime and a proper culture, men are way more "useful" in the battlefield due to their strenght and relative lesser importance that women. This is either due to respect towards the female gender or due to a sense of possession from the head males towards their females.
3) I also believe that the writer wished to avoid the many possible implications of evil people and captives. Rape, slavery, mutilations are concrete possibilites in this campaign and yet the writer tries to avoid them both intentionally and throught a certain way of writing. I proof is that, during the Aldercross attack of the bugbears, it is not written what should happen if the Pcs go pillaging with the horde. This works also during book 3 and book 4: the pcs kills angels, but defenseless people are killed by their monstrous goons.
Now, about by experience as a Dm. i have a 5/6 persons group, 1 woman and 5 men that play 4 males and 2 females. While roleplaying, i've seen things ... like torture, mutilations, a witch eating many children and lots of rape. I allowed this without emphazing such aspects.
OK, here are my ideas
- Increase the level of opponents by at least one level, and give monsters the advanced template (or increase their number)
- Give your npc's some magic items, like magical armour and weapons. Many high level characters don't have this basic thing (at least to book three)
- expand characters that are mentioned. For example the warrior nuns in book two who never turn up.
- give the npc's a voice. in other words have them speak. For example in the first book I redesigned the fighter (sir balin) at the end of the maze to be a 4th level paladin/3nd level inquistor. The party was third level at this point (I made the test the cardinal gave them into a graduation exercise) and this was a boss fight. The party had 6 characters, an alchemist, an antipaladin, an inquisitor, a sorcereress, an ageis (psionic character) and a rogue. It was a long, memorable fight with the knight calling out to his god, declarative statements about destroying evil and so on.
- use the rules. A simple thing but a lot of gm's do go to common denominator when using npc's. the redesigned balin above used dazzling display to shake his opponents. Then he laid about him like the wrath of god.
I hope this helps.
BTW I played talengard as a lawful good tyranny. complacent, corrupt to an extent and sliding into lawful neutral territory.
I have added some more devilish politicing, as at least one PC serves the Whore queens rather than Asmodeus directly I have replaced the contract devil with a servant of Ardad Lili who is keen to ensure that her chosen ones overthrow talingarde not Thorne , so that she gets the credit. To that end I have added another devil who is responsible for Thorne all of them working for the Pit Fiend who is Asmodeu's viceroy for this realm.
I am also doing some stuff with the prehistory of Talingarde , the Nameless tyrant, previous devilish attempts to take over and a whole series of wars which have gradually left Mitra and Asmodeus as the contenders for control of this land with other forces of good and evil sidelined by earlier defeats. The whole thing is a contest with rules for what the direct agents of the gods can and cannot do , with Mitra currently in the ascendent thus allowing for his angels to do more
Also a whole bunch of potential side quests for interesting loot and lore. Some of which follow up PC backstories. I'll probably be tieing the Medusa to Ardad Lili some lamia and a good goddess who has been knocked out of the running for control of the lnad