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See I didn't use the core Monk since using a Cleric provides a character that will arguably be expected to have a higher Wisdom than a Monk of similar level. And again at the level we're looking at getting to roll twice on Will saves actually applies. It's why I then dropped the comparison down to level 10 as that's a level a good many more players will actually play at. It's also when Dominate Person is available for spont casters.
But a Core Monk vs Unchained Monk at level 10. They'll both have the same Wisdom we'll put them at a 14 with the +2 headband so a 16 total.
Core 7 + 3 + 3 (resistance) + 2 Still Mind = 15
Unchained 3 + 3 + 3 (resistance) + 2 Still Mind = 11
you're down 4 points from the Core Monk with similar stats. As for getting turned against the party, again when dominated you get another save with a +2 bonus when told to do something you wouldn't, so it goes to a 13 for the Unchained monk only 2 points beneath the Core monk in that instance.
If a Good Will save progression represents mental fortitude and being the master of your own mind, and the Unchained Monk can reasonably keep up with non Wisdom dependent casters such as Wizards and Sorcerers, then the system still represents that idea.
No it does not, because the Monk's training makes him the master of his mind. The wisdom score of the Monk is not an aspect of his training, but an aspect of the person.
The UC Monk *class* is supposed to have great mental fortitude. But the UC Monk *class* does not do this. The UC Monk *class* is no more mentally impregnable than the Fighter, or Ranger or Rogue. They all have the same Will save (poor) so they are all as mentally susceptible as the other. The only difference is the actually person who takes up said training.
Someone who has the potential to be a Cleric will find himself just as mentally strong whether he's a Rogue or Fighter or Unchained Monk. But if he undergoes training that actually strengthens his mind (like becoming a Cleric with good Will saves) then he will find his mind stronger than if he had done something else.
The Individual is providing the strength to the Unchained Monk's Will save, not the Unchained Monk itself.
Hell, the Unchained Monk, all things being equal between the two (magic items, stats etc.) is only marginally more effective at resisting mental attacks than the bloody Commoner NPC Class and that's B&&$#%+$!
How the hell can Paizo sit there and be proud of this class when it is only slightly more mentally resilient than some guy who works in a farmer's field all damned day considering the inspiration and flavor the class is designed around? They can't. It's a bloody embarrassment and they should be ashamed of themselves.
[Edit] Added "UC" where appropriate to distinguish between the Monk and the Unchained Monk.
I'm confused so in the instance where it's about on par with an equal level Wizard before spells come into effect that's unimpressive and meh. But because it's save is 2 points higher vs effects that would seize control of his mind, Still Mind that thing that represents their mental training, it's a huge deal?
I mean I guess we're also ignoring that the Monk while having the poor base save in common with the Commoner gets a d10 not a d6, full bab not 1/2, good fort and ref saves, and is basically an unmitigated badass.
If the swashbuckler was any indication, the devs do not value saves as much as forum goers.
I'm confused so in the instance where it's about on par with an equal level Wizard before spells come into effect that's unimpressive and meh. But because it's save is 2 points higher vs effects that would seize control of his mind, Still Mind that thing that represents their mental training, it's a huge deal?
I mean I guess we're also ignoring that the Monk while having the poor base save in common with the Commoner gets a d10 not a d6, full bab not 1/2, good fort and ref saves, and is basically an unmitigated badass.
Core Rules Monk, Wizard, Cleric, Druid etc. are all classes that represent intense mental training or aptitude. This is reflected in them having good Will saves. The skills required for their lifestyle mandates their mind be stronger and more impervious than others. This is common amongst *all* practitioners of this lifestyle. Being a Cleric, or a Monk makes you undergo training or dogma or what have you that strengthens your mind.
This is irrespective of whatever mental capability the individual has. It doesn't matter whether or not the person has a Wisdom of 7 or a Wisdom of 37, the training undergone by these classes means their minds will be more defensively powerful than if they hadn't undergone that training.
The Unchained Monk makes this a joke.
If you take someone with straight 10s in all of their ability scores and put them into each class, you will see how the training and capabilities of the class reflects in their saving throws.
An Unchained Monk will have +2 on Will saves and the ability to re-roll Will saves at 19th level over that of a Commoner.
Quite literally the worst class in the game, the Commoner is about on par with an Unchained Monk of equal level when it comes to Will saves. The mental fortitude of the Unchained Monk is simply not relevant.
However, the Core Rules Monk is a different story. You take a blank slate, as above (10s in all stats) and put the Core Rules Monk on it, it will be much more improved over that of the Commoner NPC class. No one would look at the Core Monk and say, "Eh... he's not that much better than the guy who picks my cotton."
The Unchained Monk is only marginally more effective at resisting mind control than an NPC Peasant of the same level.
The Unchained Monk is not a master of his mind. He's only slightly above a peasant in his mental fortitude.
One of the higher CR 10 will saves I saw is the Fear aura of a Crystal Dragon. DC 22, not an enchantment effect so no Still Mind. Using our lvl 10 Monks
Core has to roll a 9, modifier of 13 without Still Mind
Unchained has to roll a 13, modifier of 9 without Still Mind
But if the Core monk fails he suffers the penalty, the Unchained if he chose Diamond Mind can spend a Ki point and get rid of the fear effect.
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stuff
By your argument I can also say that the Monk is marginally better than the Barbarian, Fighter, Ranger, Rogue, Cavalier, Gunslinger, Bloodrager, Brawler, Hunter, Slayer and Swashbuckler. Because they all have poor will save progression.
Maybe I'm stingier with my per day power points than most players. I tend to only use my arcane pool on my magus, or ki points on my monk when I need them. I don't blow a point every time I flurry for that extra attack or a +4 to ac.
One of the higher CR 10 will saves I saw is the Fear aura of a Crystal Dragon. DC 22, not an enchantment effect so no Still Mind. Using our lvl 10 Monks
Core has to roll a 9, modifier of 13 without Still Mind
Unchained has to roll a 13, modifier of 9 without Still Mind
But if the Core monk fails he suffers the penalty, the Unchained if he chose Diamond Mind can spend a Ki point and get rid of the fear effect.
All things assumed the same, the What farmer peasant has the same saving throw as the Unchained Monk. Only through expending limited resources and the correct selection of a Ki power does the Unchained Monk have an improvement over that of a peasant.
If you're trying to prove that the Unchained Monk adequately fulfills the 'master of his mind' aspect that the Monk class is inspired from, you are badly failing to do so.
Again, everything you've stated only goes to show that, all things equal, the Unchained Monk is only marginally more effective at defending his mind than that of a peasant.
stuffBy your argument I can also say that the Monk is marginally better than the Barbarian, Fighter, Ranger, Rogue, Cavalier, Gunslinger, Bloodrager, Brawler, Hunter, Slayer and Swashbuckler. Because they all have poor will save progression.
With the exception of the Barbarian (who's Rage makes it harder to mess with his mind), they are, all of them equally as talented at resisting mind control as that of the common peasant.
However none of them are supposed to be master of their mind and body like a Monk is.
Many of them are supposed to be physically tough, or agile, and in doing so, they get good Fortitude or Reflex saves (maybe both). But the Monk is supposed to be physically tough, graceful and agile, and mentally resilient. The Unchained Monk is not mentally resilient. No more so than the other classes or the Commoner NPC class.
By your argument I can also say that the Monk is marginally better than the Barbarian, Fighter, Ranger, Rogue, Cavalier, Gunslinger, Bloodrager, Brawler, Hunter, Slayer and Swashbuckler. Because they all have poor will save progression.
Some of those get class features that significantly mitigate a low Will save, which is essentially what people are asking for the monk.
Swashbuckler as a decent but limited boost in Charmed Life and a stat that makes Steadfast Personality viable. The Eldritch Guardian Fighter, which I suspect will be extremely popular since it does so much and costs so little, gives Fighters a good Will vs. fear and mind-affecting. Bloodrager and especially Barbarian get huge Will boosts. A human barbarian competes for the best saves in the game.
No what I've shown is that you're attempting to disregard the entirety of a PC class and focus on one facet of it in an attempt to claim it as terrible. There's a slew of other PC classes, which tend to be heroic in nature, that all have Poor Will progressions. You're focusing on the fact that a Commoner, an NPC class that is subpar compared to EVERY PC class, shares one thing with the Monk.
The Monk still gets an innate +2 bonus to saves to the thing everyone seems to be most focused on, namely getting dominated. A single point can separate a success from a failure.
I showed that a Monk with an assumed investment. Namely a reasonable Wisdom score to fuel AC and Ki pool will have a save comparable to a Wizard or other non Wisdom based class that receives a Good Will save progression. As it happens to be your Total Modifier that you add to your die roll when making a Save your Total Modifier is what should reasonably determine whether your character has a strong will. Not just his base save.
Now if you tend to play Monks that dump Wisdom then I can see your problem, but that's a play style I don't personally subscribe too then again I always liked the Rogue even before it was Unchained.
The issues tend to arise when you attempt to compare the Monk, a Martial combatant, to a Wisdom oriented class that ALSO receives a Good Will progression. That combination alone will ensure that they will most likely outstrip the Monk. I would expect a Cleric or Druid to have a higher Will save modifier than a Core Monk simply due to the Cleric being more heavily focused on the stat for casting.
The point wasn't to compare the Unchained Monk to the Core Monk, again this is a book of OPTIONS, it was to show that looking at it objectively an Unchained Monk isn't as destitute and destroyed as people think since it can keep pace with those classes that receive a good Will base save. And will perform better than other beatsticks vs those dreaded dominates.
A 50% chance to get reamed by a save or don't play for several hours is bad odds.You can say that for a lot of classes in Pathfinder, so the Unchained Monk is hardly unique in that respect. I think it'd be a worthwhile topic for the developers how they can give an option on how to prevent such time-outs for players in some future Unchained product.
Did you just give away some future product plans? If so, I am definitely looking forward to Pathfinder Unchained 2.
By your argument I can also say that the Monk is marginally better than the Barbarian, Fighter, Ranger, Rogue, Cavalier, Gunslinger, Bloodrager, Brawler, Hunter, Slayer and Swashbuckler. Because they all have poor will save progression.Some of those get class features that significantly mitigate a low Will save, which is essentially what people are asking for the monk.
Swashbuckler as a decent but limited boost in Charmed Life and a stat that makes Steadfast Personality viable. The Eldritch Guardian Fighter, which I suspect will be extremely popular since it does so much and costs so little, gives Fighters a good Will vs. fear and mind-affecting. Bloodrager and especially Barbarian get huge Will boosts. A human barbarian competes for the best saves in the game.
Right, there are options and class features that help offset weaknesses in certain situations. Bravery helps Fighters resist Fear, Still Mind helps Monks from getting mind controlled. Everyone can take Iron Will for a +2 and show they've really trained hard to master themselves. Comparing a somewhat baseline gives at least a sort of foundation to build out from. Looking at other Martials there are things to consider there as well for our comparisons.
Bravery is always on, Eldritch Guardian Fighters wind up with a +5(?) bonus from their class feature, Barbarians/Bloodragers have to Rage for their bonuses so they'll get those a large percentage of the time, Swashbuckler's Charmed Life has a times/day limit. Some of these features cost a limited resource just like the Monk and his ki.
Maybe I'm stingier with my per day power points than most players. I tend to only use my arcane pool on my magus, or ki points on my monk when I need them. I don't blow a point every time I flurry for that extra attack or a +4 to ac.
Except the Unchained Monk requires you to use Ki to power ANY class feature that isn't Flurry or Style Strikes (which can only be used on a FLurry).
It no longer has Diamond Body for free, for example, it must use Ki to use that.
Hell, it can't even do the +4 AC thing any more unless you specifically choose that Ki power.
EVERYTHING on the Unchained Monk is tied to Ki, so unless you never want to use any of your class features besides the free TWFing, you better be shelling out those points.
It's like if the Magus suddenly had to spend a point from his Arcane Pool to use Spell Combat, and then a second point to use Spellstrike, and needed to burn a point every time he wanted to cast a spell too.
You'd blow through that thing like it wasn't there unless you wanted to be a 3/4 BaB character with no active class features.
The point about the Monk and the Will save is that Paizo, on it's basic level, went against the inspiration for the class in the first place.
You look at the inspiration for the Monk and you come across people who are the master of their own mind and body. They can pierce illusions and see what others can't. They aren't susceptible to the mental influences of other beings. They can fight off even the deadliest of poisons through the mastery of their own internal fortitude, and their supreme control over their bodies allows them to avoid impossible things.
The Unchained Monk is still capable of fighting off the deadliest of poisons and they can still avoid the fiery breath of a red dragon even if they are pinned to a rock. But if someone comes along with something that targets his mind? He's only marginally more effective against that than the Average Joe who cleans the stables.
I have an idea! Let's make a class who is all about mastery of fire! Capable of projecting and bending flames to his control to shield himself and his allies from the roaring inferno! And then, when you get the class, you realize, he has only a smidge of defense agaisnt fire (resist fire 5) and that he really isn't all that good at stopping the flames he controls from killing himself!
Sounds fun right? [/sarcasm]
A good portion of the Ki powers are pretty niche though, so they have to come up before you're spending that ki point. And that's if you don't have a party member who can handle that issue for you. If you have a cleric who can neutralize poison, unless you want Cobra Breath, you probably won't take Diamond Body.
Right, there are options and class features that help offset weaknesses in certain situations. Bravery helps Fighters resist Fear, Still Mind helps Monks from getting mind controlled. Everyone can take Iron Will for a +2 and show they've really trained hard to master themselves. Comparing a somewhat baseline gives at least a sort of foundation to build out from. Looking at other Martials there are things to consider there as well for our comparisons.
Bravery is always on, Eldritch Guardian Fighters wind up with a +5(?) bonus from their class feature, Barbarians/Bloodragers have to Rage for their bonuses so they'll get those a large percentage of the time, Swashbuckler's Charmed Life has a times/day limit. Some of these features cost a limited resource just like the Monk and his ki.
But all of those, excepting Bravery and maybe Charmed Life, are far more effective than Still Mind. If Still Mind was scaling like the Eldritch Guardian ability, I'd agree with you. The +2 is more than adequate at low levels, but really hurts at high levels, especially when your party members are a Paladins, Barbarians, Inquisitors, and the like who rarely miss a Fort or Will.
If you consider the base saves of a class to represent a character's mental fortitude, physical endurance, and agility then what do Ability scores represent to you?
Under Wisdom it states that "Wisdom describes a character's willpower, common sense, awareness, and intuition." Which is why I focused on Wisdom and overall Will save modifier not the base save.
A Commoner with incredible Will, read Wisdom, could come close or match a weak willed, again read Wisdom, Core Monk.
I'm not saying the Unchained Monk is bad, especially since I don't have it. I'm saying that giving the Monk a bad Will save is a completely unacceptable choice by Paizo. They should feel ashamed of themselves for doing so. It's an embarrassment to the inspiration of the class and to the skills of the designer that the Monk is only slightly better and Will saves than a bloody peasant.
It also further reinforces, in my mind, the belief that Paizo cannot handle the Monk. Paizo has done a lot of good for the Monk over the years, but for every step forward, they've also taken a step backward. The net result is that the Monk is in the same place it was before Paizo got a hold of it. At the bottom of the pack being ground into dust by nearly everyone else.
The Unchained Monk seems to fit right in with their motif. They offer the Monk a power up, and then kick them in the knee and send them sprawling as well. Sure, they got a power up in one area, but they got nerfed in another. Net result is the same.
Probably because there doesn't seem to be anyone on Paizo's team who has a hard on for the class like there does for the Bard or Barbarian.
Right, there are options and class features that help offset weaknesses in certain situations. Bravery helps Fighters resist Fear, Still Mind helps Monks from getting mind controlled. Everyone can take Iron Will for a +2 and show they've really trained hard to master themselves. Comparing a somewhat baseline gives at least a sort of foundation to build out from. Looking at other Martials there are things to consider there as well for our comparisons.
Bravery is always on, Eldritch Guardian Fighters wind up with a +5(?) bonus from their class feature, Barbarians/Bloodragers have to Rage for their bonuses so they'll get those a large percentage of the time, Swashbuckler's Charmed Life has a times/day limit. Some of these features cost a limited resource just like the Monk and his ki.
Wait, isn't the Monk likely to lose Still Mind in order to get a Vow like Truth, silence, etc?
I mean, he really needs Ki, those extra 10+ points are really helpful (assuming stuff like combining Truth/Silence/Celibacy).
I wish they made more varied choices for vows.
A Soihe archetype could take Chains without the Hit/AC penalty since you get the benefits while wearing medium or heavy armor.
But all of those, excepting Bravery and maybe Charmed Life, are far more effective than Still Mind. If Still Mind was scaling like the Eldritch Guardian ability, I'd agree with you. The +2 is more than adequate at low levels, but really hurts at high levels, especially when your party members are a Paladins, Barbarians, Inquisitors, and the like who rarely miss a Fort or Will.Right, there are options and class features that help offset weaknesses in certain situations. Bravery helps Fighters resist Fear, Still Mind helps Monks from getting mind controlled. Everyone can take Iron Will for a +2 and show they've really trained hard to master themselves. Comparing a somewhat baseline gives at least a sort of foundation to build out from. Looking at other Martials there are things to consider there as well for our comparisons.
Bravery is always on, Eldritch Guardian Fighters wind up with a +5(?) bonus from their class feature, Barbarians/Bloodragers have to Rage for their bonuses so they'll get those a large percentage of the time, Swashbuckler's Charmed Life has a times/day limit. Some of these features cost a limited resource just like the Monk and his ki.
Bravery and Steel Will are gained at level 2, increasing every 4 levels. So at lvl 10 it's a +3 bonus, only 1 point higher than Still Mind. Now it increases it's lead as the game continues which is a good thing, but at the same time the class that gets those features is Fighter who probably won't have as high a Wisdom score as the Monk so it may trail them. Charmed Life is pretty spectacular and on a Swashbuckler I mean I know I keep a high Dex and a high Cha, gotta have that witty banter mid combat or it's just not worth it. So Charmed Life can be pretty good, but I think that comes down to what you got for point buy or what you rolled. If all you could get is a +2 Cha bonus then it's on par with Still Mind.
If you consider the base saves of a class to represent a character's mental fortitude, physical endurance, and agility then what do Ability scores represent to you?
Under Wisdom it states that "Wisdom describes a character's willpower, common sense, awareness, and intuition." Which is why I focused on Wisdom and overall Will save modifier not the base save.
A Commoner with incredible Will, read Wisdom, could come close or match a weak willed, again read Wisdom, Core Monk.
I consider the base saves to be representative of the base class not the person taking the class.
You can't seem to separate the two in your mind and that's why you can't understand the concept. Your Wisdom score is not a product of your training as a Monk to become a master of your mind and body. Your Wisdom score is an aspect of the person undergoing the training.
Having a high wisdom score only means that you, as a person, are more likely to resist attacks on the mind. Whether that be as a Fighter, a Monk, or a peasant, it means you are more mentally resilient.
How about this. If I wanted to learn how to fight fires, be more aware about fire safety, and learn good techniques to safeguard my house, do I:
A) become a fireman
B) become a chemical engineer
C) douse my house in gasoline and throw matches at it
Now a chemical engineer may be aware about fire safety because he read up on guides to house safety and he watches programs on TV about safeguarding his house. But that doesn't make him a fireman.
Wait, which of the four of us is in love with the bard and the barbarian? This is actually the first time I've heard of that. I thought the general wisdom was that we were in love with the wizard and the arcanist?
As to the monk, if it was Reflex, then people would be complaining (rightly) that the evasion ability has become much weaker, since you get no use out of it if you fail a Reflex save. If it was Fortitude, it would be that a monk's body is perfected, a weapon, and that failed Fort saves can kill you or turn you stone. I know this because these are the discussions we had when Jason came in floating various options. We said all of these things, including the things on this thread about meditation and the mind when the option was Will. In the end, I'm glad he picked Will and not the others. Evasion still works, and the d10 hit dice means you can drop your Con and have the same number of hit points but Wisdom is still as important as ever, so mechanically I'd rather have weak Will progression and have a solid but not stellar Will instead of a horrifically low Fort (and thematically, weak Fort made the least sense of the three). So Jason definitely didn't make the decision flippantly; of all four classes, the monk took him the longest (he thought it would be the summoner) and went through the most iterations.
Except that's what Still Mind represents is your training. You keep discounting what equates to a free Iron Will in respect to enchantment effects.
The level you get Still Mind your effective base save vs enchantment effects is only 1 point behind a "good" base save. It stays 1 point behind until level 8 where the gap increases by another point. After that the gap increases sporadically sometimes it's only 2 points others it's 3 until lvl 20 when it's a 4 point difference. As people like to harp when it comes to Flawless Mind, many folks won't see beyond lvl 15ish.
And it's not that I'm misunderstanding the concept, but base save doesn't equal total modifier which is what actually matters when you make a saving throw.
I think it matters to determine though, is a 2 point difference marginal or is it a huge penalty?
Bravery and Steel Will are gained at level 2, increasing every 4 levels. So at lvl 10 it's a +3 bonus, only 1 point higher than Still Mind. Now it increases it's lead as the game continues which is a good thing, but at the same time the class that gets those features is Fighter who probably won't have as high a Wisdom score as the Monk so it may trail them. Charmed Life is pretty spectacular and on a Swashbuckler I mean I know I keep a high Dex and a high Cha, gotta have that witty banter mid combat or it's just not worth it. So Charmed Life can be pretty good, but I think that comes down to what you got for point buy or what you rolled. If all you could get is a +2 Cha bonus then it's on par with Still Mind.
I said it works well at low levels and scales poorly into the late game, which is where, unfortunately, bad saves matter most. Even staying matched with a Fighter archetype is no major prize, considering no one really accuses them of strong Will saves. Unfortunately, the way this game is designed requires either a high save or a very powerful save boost to be reasonably protected in a save at high levels. Still Mind is not such a boost.
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Wait, which of the four of us is in love with the bard and the barbarian? This is actually the first time I've heard of that. I thought the general wisdom was that we were in love with the wizard and the arcanist?
As to the monk, if it was Reflex, then people would be complaining (rightly) that the evasion ability has become much weaker, since you get no use out of it if you fail a Reflex save. If it was Fortitude, it would be that a monk's body is perfected, a weapon, and that failed Fort saves can kill you or turn you stone. I know this because these are the discussions we had when Jason came in floating various options. We said all of these things, including the things on this thread about meditation and the mind when the option was Will. In the end, I'm glad he picked Will and not the others. Evasion still works, and the d10 hit dice means you can drop your Con and have the same number of hit points but Wisdom is still as important as ever, so I'd rather have weak Will there mechanically and have a solid but not stellar Will instead of a horrifically low Fort (and thematically, weak Fort made the least sense of the three). So Jason definitely didn't make the decision flippantly; of all four classes, the monk took him the longest (he thought it would be the summoner) and went through the most iterations.
Fortitude would have made the most sense, had he thought about it.
Purity of Body and Diamond Body should have been left as-is. That makes the Monk have a poor Fort, but outright immune to the majority of non-spell induced Fortitude saves. That leaves thematics the same, and greatly softens the bow mechanically.
Reflex would have worked well too, had Evasion been removed and replaced with something else. I've never seen that as particularly core to the theme. This wold have been downright THE BEST choice for weakened save mechanically, especially if Evasion were replaced with Stalwart (which always seemed like it belonged more on the Monk than Inquisitor and Fighter anyway).
Of all the saves he could have lowered, Will makes the least sense both thematically and mechanically.
I'm actually incredibly sad it was Jason Buhlman who worked on the Monk. I had been hoping it would fall to you, as the fresh pair of eyes...Jason (and the others) already took a crack at it and failed, and they've proven repeatedly over the years that they do not recognize the problems with the class.
If you can't identify the problem, you cannot FIX the problem.
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d10 hp
full BAB *plus* an extra attack at full BAB
3 free feats at level 1 and a host of cool stuff / new options
nuff said
those who argue that meditation yields a more acute mind have either forgotten that most monks *meditating* are basically just sleeping in a fancy way, as opposed to the wizard (i.e. advanced calculus / quantum physics teacher) who gets a splitting headache daily from overheating his brain trying to unlock the secrets of the universe
clerics... well... they have faith... the kind that drives them to do everything they do, and they wield powers granted daily by the gods... so.... yeah... full of themselves to the point of bursting, thus their sense of the "self" so inflated that mental control attempts are futile...
As to the monk, if it was Reflex, then people would be complaining (rightly) that the evasion ability has become much weaker, since you get no use out of it if you fail a Reflex save. If it was Fortitude, it would be that a monk's body is perfected, a weapon, and that failed Fort saves can kill you or turn you stone. I know this because these are the discussions we had when Jason came in floating various options. We said all of these things, including the things on this thread about meditation and the mind when the option was Will. In the end, I'm glad he picked Will and not the others. Evasion still works, and the d10 hit dice means you can drop your Con and have the same number of hit points but Wisdom is still as important as ever, so mechanically I'd rather have weak Will progression and have a solid but not stellar Will instead of a horrifically low Fort (and thematically, weak Fort made the least sense of the three). So Jason definitely didn't make the decision flippantly; of all four classes, the monk took him the longest (he thought it would be the summoner) and went through the most iterations.
This occurred to me, and I do appreciate the problem. Assuming I'm someone who wouldn't mind the Monk getting boosted slightly more, would you be willing to speculate on what, in your opinion, would be a reasonable trade for restoring the high Will progression?
At level 10 you'll have 4 Ki powers. I think your rate of expenditure will be heavily decided by what powers you select. If you've picked a bunch of niche things and only spend points when you need to then your rate of expenditure will be lower than someone who spends a point every chance they get for that extra attack in a flurry.
Except that's what Still Mind represents is your training. You keep discounting what equates to a free Iron Will in respect to enchantment effects.
The level you get Still Mind your effective base save vs enchantment effects is only 1 point behind a "good" base save. It stays 1 point behind until level 8 where the gap increases by another point. After that the gap increases sporadically sometimes it's only 2 points others it's 3 until lvl 20 when it's a 4 point difference. As people like to harp when it comes to Flawless Mind, many folks won't see beyond lvl 15ish.
And it's not that I'm misunderstanding the concept, but base save doesn't equal total modifier which is what actually matters when you make a saving throw.
I think it matters to determine though, is a 2 point difference marginal or is it a huge penalty?
Still Mind does not, in anyway shape or form make up for the loss of the will save the Monk had before.
Base save is representative of the CLASS. That's the bit you can't seem to wrap your head around. It doesn't bloody matter what your wisdom score is, because your wisdom score is not what makes you a Monk.
The UC Monk class (not Wisdom score) has bad saves. The US Monk class (not Wisdom score) fails to be a master of his own mind.
The Monk class fails to adequately represent it's inspiration if it isn't a master of it's own mind.
Again. Class, not ability score. Base save = Monk training. Ability score = person. Ability score does not equal Monk training. Have you understood this yet?
The Unchained Monk is a peasant who can fight better with his fists. That's all.
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Speak for yourself. I never loved the Rogue.
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Wizards can be considered a legacy thing. I do agree that bard is a class that have received incredibly amounts of love, a perplexing thing when in the same books the rogue was marginalized. EDIT: Not that the the bard thing was bad, the result is a pretty solid class with solid archetypes (except pageant of the peacock, one of the sillies abilities ever)Wait, which of the four of us is in love with the bard and the barbarian? This is actually the first time I've heard of that. I thought the general wisdom was that we were in love with the wizard and the arcanist?
Yeah, let's ignore Pageant of the Peacock, since the design team works on the Pathfinder RPG line. But also because...yeah, PotP.
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Speak for yourself. I never loved the Rogue.I saw you look longingly at the rogue's debilitating injury ability today... don't say you didn't! why are you blushing? ;)
That's the Rogue's hotter, more intelligent twin sister, the Unchained Rogue.
...Fortitude would have made the most sense, had he thought about it.
Purity of Body and Diamond Body should have been left as-is. That makes the Monk have a poor Fort, but outright immune to the majority of non-spell induced Fortitude saves. That leaves thematics the same, and greatly softens the bow mechanically.
Reflex would have worked well too, had Evasion been removed and replaced with something else. I've never seen that as particularly core to the theme. This wold have been downright THE BEST choice for weakened save mechanically, especially if Evasion were replaced with Stalwart (which always seemed like it belonged more on the Monk than Inquisitor and...
In it's role as a melee combatant I disagree. The Monk as it's presented is more of a martial artist with a mystical bent. As combat is it's primary thing having the two saves that I would consider more militant being good makes sense to me.
If the Monk were instead presented as a mystical guru and filled a more support oriented role like the bard then absolutely. Give 'em the good Will save. I'd also probably have hit Reflex at that point and ditched evasion. Sitting still meditating or helping others reach enlightenment you're not so quick on your feet, but sitting out in those terrible freezing temperatures helping others "find" themselves made you pretty tough.
The big thing is this is a book of options, you don't like something don't use it, or change it. You want Unchained Monks with good Will saves go for it, won't affect my table. Even when the good folks at Paizo change things there are times I completely ignore them, folks keep mentioning a Crane Style/Wing/Riposte nerf can't figure out what they're talking about though.
Speak for yourself. I never loved the Rogue.I saw you look longingly at the rogue's debilitating injury ability today... don't say you didn't! why are you blushing? ;)
I'm sure he also saw that the Rogue still has only a good Reflex save.
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As to the monk, if it was Reflex, then people would be complaining (rightly) that the evasion ability has become much weaker, since you get no use out of it if you fail a Reflex save. If it was Fortitude, it would be that a monk's body is perfected, a weapon, and that failed Fort saves can kill you or turn you stone. I know this because these are the discussions we had when Jason came in floating various options. We said all of these things, including the things on this thread about meditation and the mind when the option was Will. In the end, I'm glad he picked Will and not the others. Evasion still works, and the d10 hit dice means you can drop your Con and have the same number of hit points but Wisdom is still as important as ever, so mechanically I'd rather have weak Will progression and have a solid but not stellar Will instead of a horrifically low Fort (and thematically, weak Fort made the least sense of the three). So Jason definitely didn't make the decision flippantly; of all four classes, the monk took him the longest (he thought it would be the summoner) and went through the most iterations.This occurred to me, and I do appreciate the problem. Assuming I'm someone who wouldn't mind the Monk getting boosted slightly more, would you be willing to speculate on what, in your opinion, would be a reasonable trade for restoring the high Will progression?
Your big issue if you do is going to be dippers. Instead of doing that, since we're in the mood for "Unchaining" anyways around here, you might want to go with one of my suggestions from the drawing board instead and build on Still Mind. One idea was to add more bonus and different categories it applied to every 4 levels, starting with charms and compulsions and a +2, and then picking another category and increasing the bonus by 1 every 4 levels. It's pretty complicated, though, so instead you could go with the simpler one: make Still Mind work on all mind-affecting and lower the level of Flawless Mind from 19 down to ~10. If Diamond Mind is at 10 with Still Mind on all mind-affecting, two rolls at +2 with a weak Will save is better than one roll at +0 with a strong Will save for most DCs anyway.
Wait, which of the four of us is in love with the bard and the barbarian? This is actually the first time I've heard of that. I thought the general wisdom was that we were in love with the wizard and the arcanist?
As to the monk, if it was Reflex, then people would be complaining (rightly) that the evasion ability has become much weaker, since you get no use out of it if you fail a Reflex save. If it was Fortitude, it would be that a monk's body is perfected, a weapon, and that failed Fort saves can kill you or turn you stone. I know this because these are the discussions we had when Jason came in floating various options. We said all of these things, including the things on this thread about meditation and the mind when the option was Will. In the end, I'm glad he picked Will and not the others. Evasion still works, and the d10 hit dice means you can drop your Con and have the same number of hit points but Wisdom is still as important as ever, so mechanically I'd rather have weak Will progression and have a solid but not stellar Will instead of a horrifically low Fort (and thematically, weak Fort made the least sense of the three). So Jason definitely didn't make the decision flippantly; of all four classes, the monk took him the longest (he thought it would be the summoner) and went through the most iterations.
Monks or Monkish characters, through out the years, have been shown to be bastions of mental discipline. You just don't see Monks succumbing to magic or illusions or mental domination. At least, not as often as one would see a Monk becoming drunk. Or Poisoned. Or being crushed by falling boulders. Or falling into a pit trap. Or succumbing to a disease.
Removing Fortitude and keeping Purity of Body and the like (or something similar) would have adequately represented Monks. Because some will be immune to poisons and disease (or highly resistant) and some won't because they didn't select the power.
Removing Reflex doesn't make Evasion weaker because most Monks are already dexterous. It also hurts the Monk the least because failing a Reflex save almost never results in death or loss of control. It also makes Reflex saves less of a joke to Monks. Most Rogues and Monks and other characters with high Reflex save laugh at them. Because they are already Dex prime, meaning they would probably make the save regardless, but now they only miss it on a natural one.
Removing Will saves was, hands down, the worst choice Jason could make when it came to weakening a saving throw. There is no good reasoning for making the Monk have a bad Will save.
In it's role as a melee combatant I disagree. The Monk as it's presented is more of a martial artist with a mystical bent. As combat is it's primary thing having the two saves that I would consider more militant being good makes sense to me....Fortitude would have made the most sense, had he thought about it.
Purity of Body and Diamond Body should have been left as-is. That makes the Monk have a poor Fort, but outright immune to the majority of non-spell induced Fortitude saves. That leaves thematics the same, and greatly softens the bow mechanically.
Reflex would have worked well too, had Evasion been removed and replaced with something else. I've never seen that as particularly core to the theme. This wold have been downright THE BEST choice for weakened save mechanically, especially if Evasion were replaced with Stalwart (which always seemed like it belonged more on the Monk than Inquisitor and...
In its role as a melee combatant, Reflex makes the least sense mechanically, and only tangentially makes sense thematically (they're all the same there).
Reflex saves are almost never save or lose, or even save or suck. As a melee combatant, these are your kryptonite. You ask a Rogue whether he'd give up his good Reflex save fr a good Will or Fort and he'd say "YES! DEAR GOD STOP LETTING THE WIZARD MINDF&@~ ME!"
Removing Reflex doesn't make Evasion weaker because most Monks are already dexterous. It also hurts the Monk the least because failing a Reflex save almost never results in death or loss of control. It also makes Reflex saves less of a joke to Monks. Most Rogues and Monks and other characters with high Reflex save laugh at them. Because they are already Dex prime, meaning they would probably make the save regardless, but now they only miss it on a natural one.
Removing Will saves was, hands down, the worst choice Jason could make when it came to weakening a saving throw. There is no good reasoning for making the Monk have a bad Will save.
You don't see lots of Strength>Wisdom>Dexterity monks? I've seen quite a few. I guess if you usually see monks with pretty low Wisdom, I can see why the low Will would be particularly bad in that meta.
Removing Will saves was, hands down, the worst choice Jason could make when it came to weakening a saving throw. There is no good reasoning for making the Monk have a bad Will save.
I can see where Jason was coming from on it, it's justa very saddening sort of logic.
He quite obviously was not embracing the Unchained spirit, because his logic for lowering Will was "Fort is an obvious one, Monks are tough", and then "I can't lower Reflex, that would make Evasion worse".
Therein lies his mistake. He chose which one to drop based on a class feature of the existing Monk that he was under no obligation to port over to the Unchained Monk, and used that to justify hacking the Will save off.
It was a forest for the trees scenario. "I can't lower Reflex because Evasion" only makes sense if you're tunnel visioning on making the Unchained Monk nigh identical to his Core counterpart with a few upgrades, instead of, well, Unchaining it and going for a full redesign.
It's obvious he spent a lot of time and effort on the new Summoner. A whole new spell list and something like 10-12 separate base forms, plus Evolutions.
He could have done something of that magnitude with the Monk, Rogue (to a slightly lesser extent), and Barbarian (to a much lesser extent), but alas, no.
Still Mind does not, in anyway shape or form make up for the loss of the will save the Monk had before.
Base save is representative of the CLASS. That's the bit you can't seem to wrap your head around. It doesn't bloody matter what your wisdom score is, because your wisdom score is not what makes you a Monk.
The UC Monk class (not Wisdom score) has bad saves. The US Monk class (not Wisdom score) fails to be a master of his own mind.
The Monk class fails to adequately represent it's inspiration if it isn't a master of it's own mind.
Again. Class, not ability score. Base save = Monk training. Ability score = person. Ability score does not equal Monk training. Have you understood this yet?
The Unchained Monk is a peasant who can fight better with his fists. That's all.
So Base Saves = Monk Training, Still Mind = nothing? I understand you're very passionate about the Monk, but your tone is coming across borderline rude and very hostile.
I showed you that even with a poor base save the class feature of Still Mind offsets for a good portion of a character's career having them only trail by 1 to 2 points. You stated that thanks to Still Mind a Monk is only "marginally better" than a Commoner at will saves. With that reasoning the Cleric is only "marginally better" than the Monk at will saves for a good portion of their gaming careers.
That's why I asked if a 2 point difference was marginal or catastrophic. It's either a big deal or it's not. If it's a big deal then yes trailing by a point or 2 is a problem. BUT if being ahead by a point or two means nothing then why the problem when the effective base save is only trailing by a point or two.
If that one or two point difference makes or breaks a character class or concept you can always grab Iron Will as it stacks with Still Mind and that closes the gap for even more of the game. At level 20 that means there's only a 2 point difference in effective base save between the Unchained Monk and his poor save and a Cleric with his good save.
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Removing Will saves was, hands down, the worst choice Jason could make when it came to weakening a saving throw. There is no good reasoning for making the Monk have a bad Will save.I can see where Jason was coming from on it, it's justa very saddening sort of logic.
He quite obviously was not embracing the Unchained spirit, because his logic for lowering Will was "Fort is an obvious one, Monks are tough", and then "I can't lower Reflex, that would make Evasion worse".
Therein lies his mistake. He chose which one to drop based on a class feature of the existing Monk that he was under no obligation to port over to the Unchained Monk, and used that to justify hacking the Will save off.
It was a forest for the trees scenario. "I can't lower Reflex because Evasion" only makes sense if you're tunnel visioning on making the Unchained Monk nigh identical to his Core counterpart with a few upgrades, instead of, well, Unchaining it and going for a full redesign.
It's obvious he spent a lot of time and effort on the new Summoner. A whole new spell list and something like 10-12 separate base forms, plus Evolutions.
He could have done something of that magnitude with the Monk, Rogue (to a slightly lesser extent), and Barbarian (to a much lesser extent), but alas, no.
He gave the monk more time and effort than any of the other classes (in order to do so, he assigned most of the outsider subtypes to me, as well as making a small number of new ki powers [I made ki visions, insightful wisdom, ki guardian, and qinggong power, for instance], and most of the rogue talents; also all the non-core rage powers to Logan).
I'm pretty sure that a weak Ref would have led to plenty of complaints about the monk being fast and speedy (with all that move speed) so not making sense that it has the reflexes of a commoner. Given the spirit of Unchained, anyone who does prefer a weak Ref or Fort, though, should totally go for it!
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Wait, which of the four of us is in love with the bard and the barbarian? This is actually the first time I've heard of that. I thought the general wisdom was that we were in love with the wizard and the arcanist?
As to the monk, if it was Reflex, then people would be complaining (rightly) that the evasion ability has become much weaker, since you get no use out of it if you fail a Reflex save. If it was Fortitude, it would be that a monk's body is perfected, a weapon, and that failed Fort saves can kill you or turn you stone. I know this because these are the discussions we had when Jason came in floating various options. We said all of these things, including the things on this thread about meditation and the mind when the option was Will. In the end, I'm glad he picked Will and not the others. Evasion still works, and the d10 hit dice means you can drop your Con and have the same number of hit points but Wisdom is still as important as ever, so mechanically I'd rather have weak Will progression and have a solid but not stellar Will instead of a horrifically low Fort (and thematically, weak Fort made the least sense of the three). So Jason definitely didn't make the decision flippantly; of all four classes, the monk took him the longest (he thought it would be the summoner) and went through the most iterations.
The thing is, ever since 1E, the monk has represented mental fortitude. Back in 'ye olden days', remember that the monk specifically gained an ability that gave him a 'virtual' 18 in Intelligence (and this was the days of 3d6, no rerolls, in order) against Psionic Blast and other Telepathic attacks.
Of course, with the ability score requirements (quite steep) and difficulty in play (duels to determine whether or not you could advance a level), few played a monk. "He's Got a Lot to Kick About", the Dragon Magazine article, expanded the monk by four levels, beefed him up to a d6, and revamped a number of other abilities. Plus delayed (by four levels) the whole having to fight to gain your title thing.
That class was far more playable (although it still required pretty good stat rolls . . . Str, Dex, and Wis of 15, Int 12, and Con 11, if I am remembering right) and it was the first monk class that I (personally) played when I started with D&D.
I've been through the 'death of the monk' 2nd Edition, then rejoiced when it came back near the end of 2E and shouted hallelujah when it appeared in 3E. The 3.5 version corrected a number of things, and then I switched to Pathfinder.
Don't get me wrong, Mark. I love the game. I'm not going to quit playing or buying the stuff Paizo puts out because I disagree with a few things they do with the monk. But it does seem (to me, perhaps to others) that folks in the company almost wish the monk didn't exist.
It breaks the rules and doesn't fit the mold. And you can't just put it in a single niche.
So it gets good things, and then those get 'revised' into meh things. We had this big (HUGE) blowup last year when it came down from on high that you couldn't flurry with a single weapon!
Jason reversed course on that and fixed a few problems at the time. Did it solve everything? No.
That is why we older gamers (older fans) were so excited about the Unchained Monk! We were hoping beyond hope that it would address MAD in some way, that it would fix the disconnect between moving fast (and hitting fast) and the gap between a standard attack and the (all-but-stationary) flurry of blows. That the monk, a Core Class would finally gain enough ki points in their pool to use their abilities as many rounds per day as a bard can rage or the bard can sing!
And some of those things Unchained does. Others it doesn't. But frankly, having the class give up what has been one of the CORE ABILITIES of the class since 1E to pay for a small increase in flurry (2 points), a moderate increase in standard attacks (5 points over 20 levels), and an average of 1 extra hit point per level (d10 HD vs. d8) . . . many of us are just literally face-palming.
Do they get it? we ask? And yeah, some do. Some don't. But the published version makes it look like the 'some don't' won out . . . again.
I'll play the game. I'll buy the products. But I am so disappointed in the class. That is not to say there are NO good things. There are plenty of them. Just not enough to stand out against the bad . . . or the ugly.
MA