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DAMMIT! it's under the "weapons and armor" heading:
When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a
medium or heavy load, a monk loses his AC bonus, as well
as his fast movement and flurry of blows abilities.
Yep. It's also worth noting that Ray of Enfeeblement or STR damage can really screw over monks now, especially if they are finesse based.
I'll start: Flawless Mind does not cost ki, nor do you have to pick it as a ki power. You just get it automatically.
And don't forget that just 1 level later you get DR 10/chaotic as well as the ability to recover ki at a rate of 1 ki per 10 minutes!
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Yep. It's also worth noting that Ray of Enfeeblement or STR damage can really screw over monks now, especially if they are finesse based.DAMMIT! it's under the "weapons and armor" heading:
When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a
medium or heavy load, a monk loses his AC bonus, as well
as his fast movement and flurry of blows abilities.
...
That's completely the same situation as the core monk. I'm confused.
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Yep. It's also worth noting that Ray of Enfeeblement or STR damage can really screw over monks now, especially if they are finesse based.DAMMIT! it's under the "weapons and armor" heading:
When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a
medium or heavy load, a monk loses his AC bonus, as well
as his fast movement and flurry of blows abilities....
That's completely the same situation as the core monk. I'm confused.
You're right. I forgot that the encumberance is still in the core monk armor proficiency section.
If you have both One Touch and Spin Kick, you can get past almost any kind of enemy's defenses!For those with the book, is there any ki power that doesn't expend ki?One Touch and Ki Sustenance (I think that's the name?) don't, I know. I don't have my PDF handy, so there might be others. (One Touch, by the by, is a really, really good power. Practically an auto-take once it becomes available.)
Well, you could, if they stacked, which they don't since one is a standard action and the other is a full-attack action.
Well, you could, if they stacked, which they don't since one is a standard action and the other is a full-attack action.If you have both One Touch and Spin Kick, you can get past almost any kind of enemy's defenses!For those with the book, is there any ki power that doesn't expend ki?One Touch and Ki Sustenance (I think that's the name?) don't, I know. I don't have my PDF handy, so there might be others. (One Touch, by the by, is a really, really good power. Practically an auto-take once it becomes available.)
I never said they stacked. I said if you have them both, you can get past "almost any kind of enemy's defenses." And you can, by using the one that's appropriate for the situation.
If I had thought they stacked, I might have said "If you use both One Touch and Spin Kick together, you can get past any kind of enemy's defenses" or something similar.
It's cool to see people thinking through all the different monk combos here, though. I'm hoping to see some cool ones that we never thought of!
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Wasn't the whole point of Unchained was giving up old 'sacred cows'? Would not Monks having all three good saves be an example of such a 'sacred cow'?
I don't see a problem with them having one poor save...I will admit though I like the idea of saves working like a paladin and monks getting a bonus to saves equal to Wis bonus.
Wasn't the whole point of Unchained was giving up old 'sacred cows'? Would not Monks having all three good saves be an example of such a 'sacred cow'?
I don't see a problem with them having one poor save...I will admit though I like the idea of saves working like a paladin and monks getting a bonus to saves equal to Wis bonus.
Them having all good saves wasn't just a "sacred cow" (which refers to something that is left in SOLELY because that's how it's always been, like the Lawful alignment restriction which STILL holds the class back for no reason), they were thematic, and one of the few real advantages even the Unchained Monk would have had over similar classes.
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Because Will saves are some of the most important saves you can ever make.
And because it wasn't necessary. The Unchained Monk is an improvement in many ways, yes. It's not so much of an improvement that it needed to be given a new weakness.
When you're buffing a class that is near universally regarded as weak, trading off one of its few strengths while barely improving some of its many weaknesses is not the right thing to do.
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Them having all good saves wasn't just a "sacred cow" (which refers to something that is left in SOLELY because that's how it's always been, like the Lawful alignment restriction which STILL holds the class back for no reason), they were thematic, and one of the few real advantages even the Unchained Monk would have had over similar classes.
The lawful restriction really is in the class's DNA, I would say. It makes about as much sense as the D&D alignment system does, it seems to me, which is to say "not much at all"; I'm not sure how big a restriction it is, other than for people who want to multiclass Barbarian and Monk, but I guess it would vary with how strictly people's tables treat alignments.
Well, I think there wasn't really a point to the will save change, tbh. It was an unnecessary quite unnecessary, especially now the brawler already exists to supplement the archetype.
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Yet no other class has all three good saves! Perhaps a PrC somewhere but no other class had such. Seems a lot are getting very bent out of shape, I mean Monk have a high Wisdom normally anyway so it doesn't hurt as much as for other classes.
Again though, what I would probably consider for a home game is the idea that a monk has an ability similar to Divine Grace where all saves get a bonus based on Wis bonus... that was an interesting idea.
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Sighs, well I still don't see the hullabaloo is with Will saves especially since the Unchained Monk has otherwise mostly been an overall improvement.
I must say - if they felt the need to drop one of their saves for balance reasons, I wish that they'd chosen Fort for thematic ones. (Though I'd rather they kept the saves and the d8 myself.)
Hell even Goku has failed a couple notable fort saves.
Again though, what I would probably consider for a home game is the idea that a monk has an ability similar to Divine Grace where all saves get a bonus based on Wis bonus... that was an interesting idea.
Ya, although as I mentioned when I suggested it, I think it would be advisable to also drop the good Fort save on the monk in that case.
PS - our avatars are too similar, I was confused for a moment about what "I" am saying
Yet no other class has all three good saves! Perhaps a PrC somewhere but no other class had such. Seems a lot are getting very bent out of shape, I mean Monk have a high Wisdom normally anyway so it doesn't hurt as much as for other classes.
I explained up thread why this isn't quite right.
Yes, Monks have a high Wisdom...because they suck at not getting hit if they don't. Which means they already need to pump Wisdom to shore up their main weak defense (AC, at least for Str based Monks). This takes away from their combat ability.
What lowering the Will save does is open up ANOTHER weak defense (Will saves) that is only partially plugged by the high Wis. And the Unchained class does nothing to mitigate the other weak defenses, so the Monk is weakened defensively all around.
It was just unnecessary. The Unchained Monk is stronger than the core Monk, but that puts it about on par with maybe a Ranger, who is neither in his Favored Terrain or fighting a Favored Enemy, and doesn't have an Animal Companion.
He has the same BaB, HD, and saves. He has the same minor Wis focus (except he gets less out of it than the Ranger. Or more accurately, he needs more of it to achieve the same baseline), but combat-wise gets none of the extra goodies, and Ki Powers give little in the way of the same versatility as spells.
Them having all good saves wasn't just a "sacred cow" (which refers to something that is left in SOLELY because that's how it's always been, like the Lawful alignment restriction which STILL holds the class back for no reason), they were thematic, and one of the few real advantages even the Unchained Monk would have had over similar classes.Wasn't the whole point of Unchained was giving up old 'sacred cows'? Would not Monks having all three good saves be an example of such a 'sacred cow'?
I don't see a problem with them having one poor save...I will admit though I like the idea of saves working like a paladin and monks getting a bonus to saves equal to Wis bonus.
The Unchained Monk is STILL Lawful only? Are you kidding me??? That seems entirely counter to the premise of the book.
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The Unchained Monk is STILL Lawful only? Are you kidding me??? That seems entirely counter to the premise of the book.I'm chalking it up to them keeping the new takes on alignment separate from the new takes on classes. After all, you can use one with the other to achieve what you want.
Yeah removing alignment requirements was one of the big reasons I wrote that removing alignment section. And the monk variant multiclass doesn't have a restriction on alignment either, which is cool.
Needless to say, if you are keeping alignment but want to remove only class alignment restrictions, go for it! I'm all for what makes the best story for your group.
Hmm, I hadn't seen anything on a new alignment section. That gives me hope, certainly. I was certain that the Lawful restriction was going to be gone, especially with Seifter working on it who (judging by his work on the Kineticist) would know exactly the sort of character Lawful-only Monks can restrict.
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Hmm, I hadn't seen anything on a new alignment section. That gives me hope, certainly. I was certain that the Lawful restriction was going to be gone, especially with Seifter working on it who (judging by his work on the Kineticist) would know exactly the sort of character Lawful-only Monks can restrict.
We each took the lead on different sections of the book. For instance, Jason was the lead on the new classes, and I took the lead on some of the other subsystems, so the kudos for the cool new style strikes should go to him; I love so many of the style strikes!
Also...let's just say you'll have an option for something pretty similar to Zaheer some day soon, and despite mentioning discipline several times in the description, it won't be restricted in alignment at all!
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I might consider the Unchained Monk having Will go back up to Good but only if HP is d8 not d10. That the insistence that BAB and HP match up be put aside, as that was a 'requirement' I never got that Paizo added.
I never understood why the monk got a d8 to HP in the first place.
Isn't HP supposed to represent your ability to take a hit? How do monks have less of an ability to take a hit than rangers? Or Gunslingers? (Not saying John Wayne wasn't tough, I'm asking why Bruce Lee somehow wasn't.)
Frankly, I think the d10 HP is long overdue.
(And while I also think the Will save was fine how it is, I'm sad to see that it's been the overriding focus of the thread.)
I might consider the Unchained Monk having Will go back up to Good but only if HP is d8 not d10. That the insistence that BAB and HP match up be put aside, as that was a 'requirement' I never got that Paizo added.I never understood why the monk got a d8 to HP in the first place.
Isn't HP supposed to represent your ability to take a hit? How do monks have less of an ability to take a hit than rangers? Or Gunslingers? (Not saying John Wayne wasn't tough, I'm asking why Bruce Lee somehow wasn't.)
Frankly, I think the d10 HP is long overdue.
(And while I also think the Will save was fine how it is, I'm sad to see that it's been the overriding focus of the thread.)
I suspect the reason was legacy, and similar to how the Ranger was handled in 3e and then 3.5.
The ranger had a D10 in 3e because he had a D10 in 2e. However, with nostalgia, people depowered the ranger as far as HD goes (something I NEVER thought was good) to a d8 because the Ranger had D8's (ignoring the fact that the Ranger got double D8's at first) in 1st edition.
The Monk got 2d4's in 1st edition at first level, but overall a D8 is easier to put into place the 2d4 HP. In fact, there's a LOT of the 1st edition Monk in 3e/3.5 and hence Pathfinder as opposed to the Monk (several versions) of 2e.
On the otherhand, you could see the D8 as a direct impact of 2e as ONE of the versions of the Monk in 2e was simply a modified Cleric/Priest. As such, the Monk had a D8 with that version of Monk.
Wasn't the whole point of Unchained was giving up old 'sacred cows'?No. The point was to do what the designers would do without the idea that they needed to stay compatible with 3.5.
Apparently what they would do includes dropping the good Will save progression.
This is a good thing to keep in mind. The devs could have plenty of their own sacred cows. Unchained was just breaking away from 3.x precedents.
Martial = poor will save may be one of those cows.
Wasn't the whole point of Unchained was giving up old 'sacred cows'?No. The point was to do what the designers would do without the idea that they needed to stay compatible with 3.5.
Apparently what they would do includes dropping the good Will save progression.
Thanks. I was about to make a similar post about Unchained NOT being all about killing sacred cows. I've seen that mentioned a few times, and it was never what I took from any of the descriptions of the book.
So one of the higher DCs for a Will save I can think up is a Fey bloodline Sorcerer, starting with 20 cha, lvl 20 all points to Cha, +5 inherent bonus to Cha, and a +6 Cha item. So a total Charisma of 36 for a modifier of 13.
Assume we're casting a lvl 9 spell compulsion, with +2 from Bloodine, +2 from Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus, we should have a total DC of 36.
Now we'll compare a Monk and a Cleric saving against the same effect.
Cleric is gonna get the same 36 in Wisdom though, so that's a 13. Base save of 12 + 13 (wis) + 5 Cloak of Resistance = 30. So he's gotta roll a 6 to pass the save, a 25% chance to fail.
Monk is gonna start with a Wisdom of 15. We're gonna say he only puts 2 level ups in Wisdom. It's important but not like a Cleric. Still gets +5 Inherent, and a +6 item. That's a total Wisdom of 28, for a modifier of 9. Base of 6 + 9 Wisdom + 5 Cloak of Resistance + 2 Still Mind = 22. We're only 8 points behind a Cleric who pumped all their points into Wisdom. Sure that means we need to roll a 14 to save, so a 35% success rate.
But we're more liable to have a higher Wisdom than the Fighter or Ranger (who probably went to a 14 and stopped) or a Barbarian. That's not counting that you can take Iron Will for another +2, and at that level we're rolling twice on every Will save and taking the better.
If we were, for argument sake, to do the Monk like we did the Cleric. He'll have a 36 Wisdom, he's wise as hell y'all, so his Will Save comes out to 6 + 13 + 5 + 2 = 26. He has a 50/50 shot to make that save. Not too shabby tbh
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A 50% chance to get reamed by a save or don't play for several hours is bad odds.
I'm certain that we could pump the saves higher with the right spells and what have you, I was looking more for a reasonable baseline that didn't take into account having the optimal spells on hand for defense.
I used Only in that starting with a Wisdom that's significantly lower than the Cleric you're not too far behind by comparison to what it could be. If we started at a 10, like a Fighter may very well do, we'd only reach a total Wisdom of 26 if we dropped every point from levels into it. So our numbers would be 6 + 8 + 5 + 2 = 21. That's going hard on upping your Wisdom so it catches up to the "I only put in 2 points" method that started at a 15.
If they started at a 10 and put no points in it which is common amongst my players. We'd start at 10 + 5 inherent + 6 Item for a 21. 6 + 5 + 5 + 2 = 18. You're gonna have to roll an 18 to succeed on that 36.
Now to be fair I also cranked the Save DC really high! I do not believe you will normally encounter that sort of DC vs a Dominate effect outside of a homebrew game. I don't think I've seen numbers like that in the APs I've run, but I could be forgetting something.
More reasonably you'll see casters try to start with a 16 or 18 in their dominant stat, they may take Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus based on their characters and obviously what level you may reach varies from group to group. I put things at level 20 just as a way to show what the extreme could possibly be. It gives us the highest DCs and the Highest Saves and the most stat points. It also gives us certain class features many will arguably not see.
I think a more reasonable example would be level 10. Dominate Person is available as a reasonable use of Enchantment shenanigans.
So if we take level 10, assume our Fey Sorc starts with an 18 in Cha, we'll be at 20 from levels, and for argument sake we'll have Eagele's Splendor up for a +4 enhancement bonus. So that takes us a 24 for a modifier of 7. So 10 + 5 + 7 + 2 = 24.
On the Saves side of things. Cleric is gonna have a Wisdom of 22, he'll start at 18 + 2 from lvls and +2 headband. His Save modifier will be 7 + 6 + 3 (resistance) for a total of 16. Needs to roll an 8 to succeed.
The Monk will have a Wisdom of 14 to start, first two points will go to it so 16, + 2 from a headband so a total of 18 modifier of 4. So 3 + 4 + 3 (resistance) + 2 Still Mind = 12. He needs a 12 to succeed. He's only 4 points behind the Cleric even though his Wisdom is 4 points lower and he has a Poor save.
A typical Fighter in my group would have a Wis 10. So 3 + 0 + 3 (resistance) = 6. He has to roll an 18 to make it.
Hmm, I hadn't seen anything on a new alignment section. That gives me hope, certainly. I was certain that the Lawful restriction was going to be gone, especially with Seifter working on it who (judging by his work on the Kineticist) would know exactly the sort of character Lawful-only Monks can restrict.We each took the lead on different sections of the book. For instance, Jason was the lead on the new classes, and I took the lead on some of the other subsystems, so the kudos for the cool new style strikes should go to him; I love so many of the style strikes!
Also...let's just say you'll have an option for something pretty similar to Zaheer some day soon, and despite mentioning discipline several times in the description, it won't be restricted in alignment at all!
Well, I hope that means that you went full Korra on the Kineticist.
Don't forget when Dominated if they command you to do something you wouldn't normally do, IE assault your own team, you get a new save with a +2 bonus on it.
I'm certain that we could pump the saves higher with the right spells and what have you, I was looking more for a reasonable baseline that didn't take into account having the optimal spells on hand for defense.
It's also fair to say that the baseline for a high DC for a CR 30 is 35, so the target DC of 36 is a pretty high one to be looking at in that regard.
A 50% chance to get reamed by a save or don't play for several hours is bad odds.
You can say that for a lot of classes in Pathfinder, so the Unchained Monk is hardly unique in that respect. I think it'd be a worthwhile topic for the developers how they can give an option on how to prevent such time-outs for players in some future Unchained product.
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A 50% chance to get reamed by a save or don't play for several hours is bad odds.You can say that for a lot of classes in Pathfinder, so the Unchained Monk is hardly unique in that respect. I think it'd be a worthwhile topic for the developers how they can give an option on how to prevent such time-outs for players in some future Unchained product.
You CAn say that for a lot of classes.
Previously, the Monk wasn't one of them.
Now he is.
I call that a step down.
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Them having all good saves wasn't just a "sacred cow" (which refers to something that is left in SOLELY because that's how it's always been, like the Lawful alignment restriction which STILL holds the class back for no reason), they were thematic, and one of the few real advantages even the Unchained Monk would have had over similar classes.Wasn't the whole point of Unchained was giving up old 'sacred cows'? Would not Monks having all three good saves be an example of such a 'sacred cow'?
I don't see a problem with them having one poor save...I will admit though I like the idea of saves working like a paladin and monks getting a bonus to saves equal to Wis bonus.
My first Unchained Monk is either going to be a LG, or I'm going to try and beat the new class with a ugly stick and try to make the Martial Artist archetype work (just so I can be a non lawful alignment). Going to be real difficult with the Ki Pool missing though.
Might have to jury rig them using a stamina pool for the abilities instead.
Actually one of the comparisons I should have put in there is one of the non Wisdom based casters with a good will save. For the sake of argument at level 10 a Wizard will have the base of 7, but his Wisdom will probably only be a 10 he may have it at a 12 or 14 but I don't see that too often. So base of 7 + 0 + 3 (resistance) = 10.
If we have a Monk who doesn't invest level points into Wisdom, we'll start him at 14, he'll still get his Headband of Wis + 2. So 16 Wisdom for a mod of 3. 3 + 3 + 3 (resistance) + 2 Still Mind = 11. He's still a point up at level 10.
At 20 assuming the Wizard in his Godlike Power gives himself +5 to all his stats through wishes/whatnot. He'll start at 10 Wisdom + 5 Inherent + 6 Headband of Opness = 21 Wisdom. So his Save modifier is 12 + 5 + 5 (resistance) = 22. The same number as my Monk in our previous high level example. The Monk however gets to roll twice and take the better result every time he rolls a will save.
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Most of my characters (Wizard or no) have 12 Wis, but that's not really the point regardless.
There s no way to spin this that this is not a downgrade that significantly lessens the Monk's ability to portray the strong willed, master of his own mind AND body archetype it is supposed to be.
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I cast moment of prescience[domain spell] on my cleric (he has the luck domain), even if I don't quite need it, my cleric saves right now level 16:
+26 Fort, +21 ref, +26 Will (include bonus from the feat divine protection, a cloak of resistance+5 and of course, I can reroll one saves due to the luck domain per day and have +16 bonus from moment of prescience once per day for in case of, when I roll very low.) So far didn't manage to buy inherent bonuses items due to lack of access to said items.
So I would have to roll a 9 to pass the fey sorcerer save, well assuming he isn't using one of his spell with spell perfection to double the bonuses, such as from spell focus and greater spell focus, interesting.
Yeah see I didn't use spells or feats because I didn't feel like dealing with it, and it's not like the Monk can cast them sans UMD or Multiclassing.
Except the whole point is if he's on par or even near the classes with Good will saves who don't heavily invest in Wisdom then yes he does portray the strong willed master of his mind. Getting that +2 from Still Mind helps a good deal more than people give it credit for. Being able to purge a fear effect is pretty potent stuff when you deal with fear auras from evil outsiders or dragons. Also at that super high level you're always rolling twice and taking the higher before any spells.
Yeah see I didn't use spells or feats because I didn't feel like dealing with it, and it's not like the Monk can cast them sans UMD or Multiclassing.
Except the whole point is if he's on par or even near the classes with Good will saves who don't heavily invest in Wisdom then yes he does portray the strong willed master of his mind. Getting that +2 from Still Mind helps a good deal more than people give it credit for. Being able to purge a fear effect is pretty potent stuff when you deal with fear auras from evil outsiders or dragons. Also at that super high level you're always rolling twice and taking the higher before any spells.
Because rolling twice against will saves for 10% of my career is so very useful rather than not having to have worried about that will save at all before hand.
You did some calculating on Monk will saves vs Cleric will saves, but you failed to take into account the Core Monk vs the Unchained Monk.
The Core Monk would have had a base of 12 + 9 Wisdom and + 5 cloak (to use your numbers, for a total bonus of 27 with a +2 bonus against enchantment spells and effects (which is a factor in this case) for a final saving throw of +29. This is much better odds against that DC 36 saving throw, which we already know is abnormally high (CR 30 creatures are expected to have a DC of 35 on their primary abilities). Against most things the Monk encounters? He's fairly confident in his abilities, but even up against a Demi-God like Deskari, he's got a good chance of withstanding any Will Saves Deskari might throw around.
For someone who is a "master of his mind and body" the Core Monk fulfills the mind part adequately. The Unchained Monk? Yeah, no, he's no master of his mind. He's just another schmuck that gets turned against the party and ganks the casters.
I'm trying real hard to not render judgement on the Unchained Monk without actually reading it, but the more I see about the Monk getting revealed, the more I am convinced that Paizo is unfit to handle the Monk class.
See I didn't use the core Monk since using a Cleric provides a character that will arguably be expected to have a higher Wisdom than a Monk of similar level. And again at the level we're looking at getting to roll twice on Will saves actually applies. It's why I then dropped the comparison down to level 10 as that's a level a good many more players will actually play at. It's also when Dominate Person is available for spont casters.
But a Core Monk vs Unchained Monk at level 10. They'll both have the same Wisdom we'll put them at a 14 with the +2 headband so a 16 total.
Core 7 + 3 + 3 (resistance) + 2 Still Mind = 15
Unchained 3 + 3 + 3 (resistance) + 2 Still Mind = 11
you're down 4 points from the Core Monk with similar stats. As for getting turned against the party, again when dominated you get another save with a +2 bonus when told to do something you wouldn't, so it goes to a 13 for the Unchained monk only 2 points beneath the Core monk in that instance.
If a Good Will save progression represents mental fortitude and being the master of your own mind, and the Unchained Monk can reasonably keep up with non Wisdom dependent casters such as Wizards and Sorcerers, then the system still represents that idea.
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Anyone have any ideas for what might be appropriate means of replenishing Ki in the latter case? Crits don't seem especially appropriate, mechanically or thematically, and it might even be nice to have something different than the 'dropping a foe' standby--that would be perfect for recreating the Hungry Ghost Monk archetype, but is perhaps a little strange for other monks.
When I asked Rynjin about the idea earlier, what I had in mind was:
Each morning the monk may meditate upon a concept, and fulfilling that concept during the day replenishes their spiritual reserves.