[Unchained] "Unchained Summoner" vs "APG Summoner" FIGHT!


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

251 to 300 of 401 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | next > last >>

Scythia wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
One thing I have noticed is that the new monk and rogue are being discussed more like what they are which would be "house rule suggestions", but people tend to be up in arms about this summoner/eidolon as if it is some type of official errata that has to be played. Why is that?
I suspect alot of people think that PFS is going to switch completely to the new version.

My inclination is they are right. They are awfully tight-lipped which, to me, indicates a nerf on the horizon.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

BigDTBone wrote:
Scythia wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
One thing I have noticed is that the new monk and rogue are being discussed more like what they are which would be "house rule suggestions", but people tend to be up in arms about this summoner/eidolon as if it is some type of official errata that has to be played. Why is that?
I suspect alot of people think that PFS is going to switch completely to the new version.
My inclination is they are right. They are awfully tight-lipped which, to me, indicates a nerf on the horizon.

Or ... it could mean an internal debate is still ongoing.

Don't try to read too much into what is going on.


Lord Fyre wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:
Scythia wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
One thing I have noticed is that the new monk and rogue are being discussed more like what they are which would be "house rule suggestions", but people tend to be up in arms about this summoner/eidolon as if it is some type of official errata that has to be played. Why is that?
I suspect alot of people think that PFS is going to switch completely to the new version.
My inclination is they are right. They are awfully tight-lipped which, to me, indicates a nerf on the horizon.

Or ... it could mean an internal debate is still ongoing.

Don't try to read too much into what is going on.

In the PFS unchained thread John (I think) mentioned they had made their decisions already and that was more than a week ago. Remember that though the content in this book is new and rare for us, the publishers of said book have had the completed content for months.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Scythia wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
One thing I have noticed is that the new monk and rogue are being discussed more like what they are which would be "house rule suggestions", but people tend to be up in arms about this summoner/eidolon as if it is some type of official errata that has to be played. Why is that?
I suspect alot of people think that PFS is going to switch completely to the new version.

I don't see that happening since the Unchained book is not even official rules, but just official suggestions, but I do see your point.


wraithstrike wrote:
Scythia wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
One thing I have noticed is that the new monk and rogue are being discussed more like what they are which would be "house rule suggestions", but people tend to be up in arms about this summoner/eidolon as if it is some type of official errata that has to be played. Why is that?
I suspect alot of people think that PFS is going to switch completely to the new version.
I don't see that happening since the Unchained book is not even official rules, but just official suggestions, but I do see your point.

I could see PFS making all new summoners unchained summoners and allowing all current summoners the option to retrain to the unchained summoner for free.

I wonder if PFS would allow an unchained sythesist summoner?


Balkin wrote:

I must admit, I was stunned when I realized just how bad the spell list has been torn up. From level 0 to level 6, 39 spells have been removed, and SIX new ones added. Another 39'ish spells have been pushed up a level, and SIX of those have been pushed up TWO levels!

For example, "Haste and Slow" used to be available at 4th level (2nd level spells), and in "Unchained" they are not available until 7th level (3rd level spells).

Eidolon's weren't nerfed quite as badly as the spell list, but they're effectiveness is still reduced. I compared my current Eidolon as is to what he would be if I rebuilt him under the new rules. After all is said and done I figure his combat effectiveness would drop 30-40%. That's very quick rough calculations, but it's not good.

That said, the idea of sub-type's of Eidolons is indeed intriguing. I like the large variety of options available in "Unchained". I just don't like how badly they've killed the class in other ways.

Also, for what it's worth, after a quick read through the Barbarian and Rogue rebuilds look solid. I can't speak for the new Monk since I don't play one, but hopefully it's on par with the Barbie and Rogue!

Anyway, I do believe I will continue to use the APG Summoner, thanks.

This might have been covered in the five pages of other posts, but I wanted to note that the spell list has not been reduced as dramatically as Balkin seems to think. The summoner spell list contains this phrasing:

Summoner Spell List wrote:
Because they aren’t always allowed for every type of character, spells from Pathfinder RPG Advanced Race Guide, Pathfinder RPG Monster Codex, and Pathfinder RPG Mythic Adventures aren’t included in these lists. Such spells are cast at the levels indicated in those sources.

Adding to that, because the roleplaying game series is setting agnostic, Unchained won't list spells from the various Golarion softcovers - I believe those spells should still be added to the unchained summoner spell list as normal.

Taking that into account, after comparing to the old class I found that the summoner spell list actually grew a bit. Near as I can tell they've lost zero spells in the turnover, and gained seven new spells - the six cloud spells (Obscuring Mist up to Acid Fog) and Invisibility Sphere.

However I will say that a large number of spells have had their spell level increased by one. If you find that the new eidolon is too limiting but think the old summoner spell list was problematic, you could probably make a fine compromise by using the Unchained summoner spell list and the old summoner eidolon mechanics.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Am I really the only person who has posted complete "unchained summoner versus summoner" builds in this thread? I'm surprised they haven't generated more discussion.


5 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Many people don't have the book yet, since it's only out for suscribers.


Ravingdork wrote:
Am I really the only person who has posted complete "unchained summoner versus summoner" builds in this thread? I'm surprised they haven't generated more discussion.

I think you are so far. I actually meant to go over the builds you made to see how much of a difference it is.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Ravingdork wrote:
Am I really the only person who has posted complete "unchained summoner versus summoner" builds in this thread? I'm surprised they haven't generated more discussion.

Access to the material is a significant barrier in your topic.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If nothing else, I would have thought they'd be talking about some of the new stuff shown on the character sheet. Seems like those people without access are clamoring for more info wherever they can get it. You'd think a completed build would provide a lot of insight into the new material.

Dark Archive

You know, something in my gut is telling me that the Unchained Summoner is going to remain an optional choice in PFS, but won't become the new standard. It just seems like too much of a book burden to require the Unchained book for a single class. One could say the same of the Magus, Gunslinger and Ninja/Samurai variants, but they never had a previous incarnation in an older book that suddenly became locked off, requiring people to buy new content if they want to roll up a new character of their favorite class.

Plus, I'm getting more of a home brew vibe. Our friendly neighborhood developers actively encouraging we monkey around with the new book to suit our particular needs. PFS, meanwhile, is a fairly unchanging universal ruleset.

I could be wrong. Paizo could lean in the favor of change and make the switch. Either way, I don't think it's all that bad. Even the lower Evo point system may have been needed; my own level 6 Eidolon is capable of outperforming almost any PC in rogue related skills, flies as well as an air elemental, and still has the points to spare for being a powerful melee combatant with one of the highest ACs at the table, all while taking incredibly suboptimal feats. And I'm not even using racials or feats to boost her pool.

Just as long as the Eidolon subtypes don't pit a straight jacket on roleplaying options (and I doubt it will) things should be fine.


Remember that the PFS guys and the Game Design guys, though they work for the same company, are definitely not the same people and make their decisions mostly independently. Seifter recommending you pick and choose what you do or do not want to use in Unchained does not necessarily represent the Official Stance of All Paizo Employees Forever.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Elandral wrote:
Could some one with the book answer a few questions for me . Dose the unchained summoner eidolon get feats , stat increase's, skills as they level like the regular summoner eidolon dose ?

Yes, just like any other character that increases in character level. None of that has gone away for any of the unchained! classes, save those that trade feat progression for variant multi-classing.


Ravingdork wrote:
If nothing else, I would have thought they'd be talking about some of the new stuff shown on the character sheet. Seems like those people without access are clamoring for more info wherever they can get it. You'd think a completed build would provide a lot of insight into the new material.

Right, there in lies the catch 22. People who *don't* have access to the material *can't* make a completed build to analyze.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Rosc wrote:

You know, something in my gut is telling me that the Unchained Summoner is going to remain an optional choice in PFS, but won't become the new standard. It just seems like too much of a book burden to require the Unchained book for a single class. One could say the same of the Magus, Gunslinger and Ninja/Samurai variants, but they never had a previous incarnation in an older book that suddenly became locked off, requiring people to buy new content if they want to roll up a new character of their favorite class.

Plus, I'm getting more of a home brew vibe. Our friendly neighborhood developers actively encouraging we monkey around with the new book to suit our particular needs. PFS, meanwhile, is a fairly unchanging universal ruleset.

I could be wrong. Paizo could lean in the favor of change and make the switch. Either way, I don't think it's all that bad. Even the lower Evo point system may have been needed; my own level 6 Eidolon is capable of outperforming almost any PC in rogue related skills, flies as well as an air elemental, and still has the points to spare for being a powerful melee combatant with one of the highest ACs at the table, all while taking incredibly suboptimal feats. And I'm not even using racials or feats to boost her pool.

Just as long as the Eidolon subtypes don't pit a straight jacket on roleplaying options (and I doubt it will) things should be fine.

The original Summoner was always very problematic for PFS. The eidolon system represents the two biggest problems PFS faces: variance and complexity. Each Eidolon was potentially different from others in it's specific capability, and there was a better than average chance that a detailed accounting of it's stats might be required to find something amiss.

So, if there's a simpler option, in terms of both construction and limited expectation (to say nothing of weakened spell access), I have the feeling they will jump on it.


Yeah, flagrantly incorrect Summoners that would take ages to properly review and take away from the experience of the table were always big problems in PFS. I can see the old one getting banned in favor of the new for that reason.


LazarX wrote:
Elandral wrote:
Could some one with the book answer a few questions for me . Dose the unchained summoner eidolon get feats , stat increase's, skills as they level like the regular summoner eidolon dose ?
Yes, just like any other character that increases in character level. None of that has gone away for any of the unchained! classes, save those that trade feat progression for variant multi-classing.

Hey, the eidolon can take Multiclass feats too.

A way to get spells, sneak attack, etc.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
BigDTBone wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
If nothing else, I would have thought they'd be talking about some of the new stuff shown on the character sheet. Seems like those people without access are clamoring for more info wherever they can get it. You'd think a completed build would provide a lot of insight into the new material.
Right, there in lies the catch 22. People who *don't* have access to the material *can't* make a completed build to analyze.

Hence why I provided them a completed build...to analyze!

I believe someone even asked for just that in the beginning of the thread.

Sovereign Court

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Well got the book today and all I can say about it:

You are still the angel summoner, actually nowadays, quite literally since you can make your eidolon an angel. Now just watch out for your BMX bandit buddy.


I checked the eidolons out and the unchained one was noticeably weaker, but it was not weak to the point of "don't even bother". I don't have the book so I don't know how much my imagination would be limited.


I've always held the believe that the summoner is meant to be a rogue/bard analogue that can fit a number of roles when played appropriately. So my question is basically this: Is there any reason for those of us who play flavorful or support eidolons to get this book (or use the unchained summoner) at all?

In an Unchained summoner thread a while back it was brought up that eidolons are pretty much straight-up funneled into tank-monster multiattack melee builds due to the ridiculous and extreme costs of terrible 1/day spell-like abilities. Am I accurate in saying that it sounds like that problem is still there?

I'm a bit confused too, because it sounds like there's far less EP to go around (meaning less variety) and more "if you choose this outsider type, you get one X ability to go with it"? Is it just as hard, harder, or the same (re: hard) to play a non-DPS eidolon? I guess I'm also wondering if that's even a concern of anyone - design or gamer - at all.

Dark Archive

xeose4 wrote:

I've always held the believe that the summoner is meant to be a rogue/bard analogue that can fit a number of roles when played appropriately. So my question is basically this: Is there any reason for those of us who play flavorful or support eidolons to get this book (or use the unchained summoner) at all?

In an Unchained summoner thread a while back it was brought up that eidolons are pretty much straight-up funneled into tank-monster multiattack melee builds due to the ridiculous and extreme costs of terrible 1/day spell-like abilities. Am I accurate in saying that it sounds like that problem is still there?

Multiattack pouncebeasts are a popular way to go, but hardly the only one. I've only seen two or three other Eidolons in my PFS play, and the closest I've seen so far is my own. And she's a skill focused pile of claws without pounce, I only went that way to avoid the feat cost of weapon proficiency.

On that note, I see it as a Quadrant. Multiple attacks versus one big attack, and weapons versus natural weapons. Grappling Serpents have their own little subcatagory. Granted, the multiarmed "Kali" builds aren't PFS legal.

But with the loss of points and the addition of subtypes, I'm thinking that you'll see more 2handed weapon Eidolons, since swinging a 2handed weapon around is the lest feat intensive fighting style in the game, so just about anything should be able to do it. The free evolutions of the new types will open the door for a lot of interesting tricks, I'm sure, and we'll actually see MORE support-oriented Eidolons because of the strange new things they'll have built in. (I hear Angel types have Lay on Hands)


Ravingdork wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
If nothing else, I would have thought they'd be talking about some of the new stuff shown on the character sheet. Seems like those people without access are clamoring for more info wherever they can get it. You'd think a completed build would provide a lot of insight into the new material.
Right, there in lies the catch 22. People who *don't* have access to the material *can't* make a completed build to analyze.
Hence why I provided them a completed build...to analyze!

For some the analyzation is very easy and by that quick: Is the new eidolon less broken than the old eidolon? Yes? So the changes were successful. Once I have the book I can analyze further if it was successful enough to allow the class.

I guess it still has the failsafe of "if the eidolon is temporary down I can start using my strongest ability, the summoning SLA".


BretI wrote:
I think it sets a bad precedent. Nerf a class that is too easy to create a good build in rather than making it easier to create an effective character in the other classes.

There are differences between building a good character vs being overpowered. When someone can take a well built summoner and can solo every encounter in a pre-published adventure, there's a problem. I'm all for raising the floor, but the summoner didn't just raise the floor, it raised the ceiling. The ceiling is already pretty high with a number of characters unable to reach it. If a new class raises the ceiling even higher, than it's time to look at what is most enjoyable for the people at the table. For every group I've played in (including PFS) it's been judged everyone enjoys themselves more without the summoner. If the APG Summoner doesn't affect the enjoyment everyone has at your table, there's no need to use the Unchained one. For those of us who opted not to play the Summoner, we now have access to all of the flavour and fun mechanics at hopefully a power level that allows us to enjoy it.

Soilent wrote:
I already have house rules limiting things like pounce abuse. But Unchained just flat out seems unfair.

If you're able to bring the summoner down to what your table considers a reasonable level by implementing a couple of houserules, there's no need to ban it. For us there was so much we felt was fundamentally wrong with the class that it was easier to simply ban it. The gunslinger was initially put in the "too powerful" basket, however I've since been looking at it more closely to see if judicious removal of a couple of options would bring it down to more reasonable levels.

Scythia wrote:
I suspect alot of people think that PFS is going to switch completely to the new version.

Areas I've played in have already self-banned it. I've heard it said "it is considered impolite to bring a summoner to the table". Of course, this is a self-imposed rule the experienced players put onto themselves. I'd hope making the Unchained Summoner legal would encourage more people to play summoners and for there to be less grumbling when they do so.

Ravingdork wrote:
If nothing else, I would have thought they'd be talking about some of the new stuff shown on the character sheet. Seems like those people without access are clamoring for more info wherever they can get it. You'd think a completed build would provide a lot of insight into the new material.

I'm sorry if I missed it. But could you post a link to the other thread? I haven't found it.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Ravingdork wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
If nothing else, I would have thought they'd be talking about some of the new stuff shown on the character sheet. Seems like those people without access are clamoring for more info wherever they can get it. You'd think a completed build would provide a lot of insight into the new material.
Right, there in lies the catch 22. People who *don't* have access to the material *can't* make a completed build to analyze.

Hence why I provided them a completed build...to analyze!

I believe someone even asked for just that in the beginning of the thread.

There's really not much to analyze here though?

I mean, you have a bunch of evolutions on there, but we know what those are. Sure, some prices might bounce around (I note a lack of Pounce and assume that's why), but those are minor details. What we don't know are the packages of the new ones. And while we can sit back and probably puzzle out one specific package from your build, it's a pain to do and still gives us what, 1/12th of the picture at best (assuming all of the Elementals are the same barring different elements and probably different movement benefits).


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
John Lynch 106 wrote:
I'm sorry if I missed it. But could you post a link to the other thread? I haven't found it.

The links should be in one my earlier post in this thread. [link]

kestral287 wrote:

There's really not much to analyze here though?

I mean, you have a bunch of evolutions on there, but we know what those are. Sure, some prices might bounce around (I note a lack of Pounce and assume that's why), but those are minor details. What we don't know are the packages of the new ones. And while we can sit back and probably puzzle out one specific package from your build, it's a pain to do and still gives us what, 1/12th of the picture at best (assuming all of the Elementals are the same barring different elements and probably different movement benefits).

The evolution prices didn't actually change all that much from what I an tell at a glance. The eidolon doesn't have pounce because that's only available to quadruped base forms; it's using the serpentine base form.


Ravingdork wrote:
There wasn't much wrong with the original spell list. A few amateur GMs just didn't know how to handle it and decided to raise hell about it long enough for the developers to take note.

I have to agree. I've discussed this exact premise before. While I do agree early game and low power games the summoner has a higher floor. Mid game + and high power games the summoner is no better than any L9 spell classes, in fact it's often a mediocre choice. In most cases I'd play a druid or hunter over a summoner. Also they really only get a few spells know per level, I don't get the OMG spells thing because that's all the summoner gets spell wise.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I think part of the problem there was that the summoner's spellcasting prowess was meant to be closer to a bard or inquisitor than a sorcerer or oracle, an extremely nice extra feature but not really his primary focus. Unfortunately, because of the custom spell list the summoner was closer to a "concealed 9th level caster" and frequently gained extremely potent spells one or even two levels before classes that are more heavily focused on sheer spellcasting power, like the sorcerer.

The unchained summoner's spell list has been altered significantly in that many spells have gained a level increase, meaning he gains spells more slowly (no Haste on level 4 etc). However he hasn't actually lost anything off his spell list, he can still cast all the same spells.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Kudaku wrote:
However he hasn't actually lost anything off his spell list, he can still cast all the same spells.

I did not see create demiplane or its lesser counterpart on there. I was really disappointed about that.


Ravingdork wrote:
Kudaku wrote:
However he hasn't actually lost anything off his spell list, he can still cast all the same spells.
I did not see create demiplane or its lesser counterpart on there. I was really disappointed about that.

Create Demiplane (Lesser) is on the list. Create Demiplane is not though, wonder how I miss that? I'll recheck the 5th and 6th level spell lists.


Kudaku wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Kudaku wrote:
However he hasn't actually lost anything off his spell list, he can still cast all the same spells.
I did not see create demiplane or its lesser counterpart on there. I was really disappointed about that.
Create Demiplane (Lesser) is on the list. Create Demiplane is not though, wonder how I miss that? I'll recheck the 5th and 6th level spell lists.

Aand time to eat some crow. I was rather tired when I read through the spell list earlier and I accidentally stopped reading at spell level 4 instead of spell level 6. I was completely wrong, there are a number of spells missing from the original summoner list. On first skim I noticed

- Simulacrum
-Antipathy
-Charm Monster, Mass
-Discern Location
-Dominate Monster
-Energy Siege Shot
-Hostile Juxtaposition (Greater)
-Incendiary Cloud
-Magnetic Field

were all missing. There's probably more.


Yeah, the only one of those I would expect the Summoner to be able to cast is Incendiary Cloud and even then it isn't incredibly necessary for the Summoner to have.


Onyxlion wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
There wasn't much wrong with the original spell list. A few amateur GMs just didn't know how to handle it and decided to raise hell about it long enough for the developers to take note.
I have to agree. I've discussed this exact premise before. While I do agree early game and low power games the summoner has a higher floor. Mid game + and high power games the summoner is no better than any L9 spell classes, in fact it's often a mediocre choice. In most cases I'd play a druid or hunter over a summoner. Also they really only get a few spells know per level, I don't get the OMG spells thing because that's all the summoner gets spell wise.

Are you only going by how things go in your games or from other people also to include forum members?

I will also ask you the same question I asked Ravingdork earlier. How would you propose these GM's stop the eidolon/summoner combo from hijacking their games?


wraithstrike wrote:
I will also ask you the same question I asked Ravingdork earlier. How would you propose these GM's stop the eidolon/summoner combo from hijacking their games?

I know it's impolite to answer a question with a question, but how does that happen?

When someone in my group finally wanted to play a Summoner, I was all ready for it to be like the highway bill just got passed, steam roller inbound.

It wasn't like that at all, in fact it was underwhelming. The Inquisitor and the Monk did better damage.


Scythia wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
I will also ask you the same question I asked Ravingdork earlier. How would you propose these GM's stop the eidolon/summoner combo from hijacking their games?

I know it's impolite to answer a question with a question, but how does that happen?

When someone in my group finally wanted to play a Summoner, I was all ready for it to be like the highway bill just got passed, steam roller inbound.

It wasn't like that at all, in fact it was underwhelming. The Inquisitor and the Monk did better damage.

How does what happen? Do you mean how does the summoner/eidolon combo take over games?


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I think I just have one very important question.

Even with the nerfs is the Summoner still a good class?

Previously the class was too good at simultaneously being a competent control caster (best kind) while also being a strong beat stick.

At this point how strong is it? In order of power

Hunter > Magus > Inquisitor > Bard

Where does it fit in?


Scythia wrote:
how does [a summoner/eidolon combo hijack games]?

Assuming my clarification above is correct, I don't know how it happens. I don't know if there's magic items or non-APG material they're using. But I have seen an eidolon/summoner solo entire adventures before. I've also seen someone come to their very first game of Pathfinder and (without reading guides online but simply using the SRD) came with a summoner that was pretty damn good and effective.


Ravingdork wrote:
Alright, alright, alright. I've done it. I've statted out an Unchained Summoner. Please, by all means, pit it against a normal summoner

Here's some analysis:

  • Unchained summoner has traded +1 to hit for +4 AC, +1 touch AC, +6 flat-footed AC>
  • Unchained summoner has 18 more hit points.
  • Has +8, +4 and +6 to saving throws.
  • Unchained summoner has DR.
  • Unchained summoner has 3 less castings of the summon spell-like ability. Has summon monster VIII rather than summon nature's ally VIII.
  • Unchained summoner has -3 to concentration checks.
  • Unchained summoner has 1 less spell across all spell levels.
  • Unchained summoner has haste as a 3rd level spell, greater invisiblity as 4th level.
  • Unchained summoner has the same number of feats.
I'm going to stop there. Different spells were chosen, different feats were chosen and different magic items were chosen. While you might have been compelled to choose different spells (changed spell list) there's no real indication there as to why you chose different feats and magic items. As such it's not really a like for like comparison.

The eidolon also doesn't seem to be statted with power attack in the unchained version while it seems to be in the APG version. So again not a like for like comparison.


John Lynch 106 wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Alright, alright, alright. I've done it. I've statted out an Unchained Summoner. Please, by all means, pit it against a normal summoner

Here's some analysis:

  • Unchained summoner has traded +1 to hit for +4 AC, +1 touch AC, +6 flat-footed AC>
  • Unchained summoner has 18 more hit points.
  • Has +8, +4 and +6 to saving throws.
  • Unchained summoner has DR.
  • Unchained summoner has 3 less castings of the summon spell-like ability. Has summon monster VIII rather than summon nature's ally VIII.
  • Unchained summoner has -3 to concentration checks.
  • Unchained summoner has 1 less spell across all spell levels.
  • Unchained summoner has haste as a 3rd level spell, greater invisiblity as 4th level.
  • Unchained summoner has the same number of feats.
I'm going to stop there. Different spells were chosen, different feats were chosen and different magic items were chosen. While you might have been compelled to choose different spells (changed spell list) there's no real indication there as to why you chose different feats and magic items. As such it's not really a like for like comparison.

The eidolon also doesn't seem to be statted with power attack in the unchained version while it seems to be in the APG version. So again not a like for like comparison.

Thanks for the breakdown. Yeah if the builds are not trying to duplicate the same thing then it is not a valid comparison. I agree with you.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Yep. All I did was make an unchained summoner character (the first one on these boards as far as I know) for people to analyze as best they could. I'm leaving it to you guys to compare something to it. That way, quality control of the comparison is in your court (FYI, my character used the parameters as set forth in my Crazy Character Emporium).

I went ahead and posted some of my other summoner characters as well, thinking it might be at least a little helpful, but as I said in the original post, they're hardly direct comparisons.


I was the one championing this to my group because most of the ideas seemed good. I knew that they would change the eidolon (though not THAT much) but after seeing what they did the spell list in addition to that... I will not be bringing this back up to my group and just hope that they forget that it exists and I certainly won't be buying it. To make the monk better they have to balance it by making it weaker in some ways, but they just rip the guts out of the summoner and leave it quivering on the floor
If I seem to be over reacting it's because summoner was my favorite class and if this version makes it into my group I'll never make one again and that makes me sad.


Korthis wrote:
If I seem to be over reacting it's because summoner was my favorite class and if this version makes it into my group I'll never make one again and that makes me sad.

Why? It's still a very good class.


Rhedyn wrote:
Korthis wrote:
If I seem to be over reacting it's because summoner was my favorite class and if this version makes it into my group I'll never make one again and that makes me sad.
Why? It's still a very good class.

I'm not so sure about that. When I ran the old summoner in a game with semi-optimized characters I had a lot of trouble staying relevant. The character's spellcasting wasn't good enough to compete with the party wizard, and the eidolon (with tons of buffs) had terrible saves and had trouble hitting the things that the paladin was demolishing. The character didn't really have any one thing that he was good at that other party members couldn't do better.

I'm worried that if I tried running the new summoner in a party simmilar to that one that I would simply feel useless.

Sovereign Court

2 people marked this as a favorite.

The summoner is still a very solid class , reading the book, it has simply been toned down to expected power levels at certain levels. You can still summon monster SLA all day, eventually cast Gate as usual, your eidolon is still a decent combatant. Now I suppose if your problem is I used to one shot the boss now I have to take 2 rounds...well then can't help you there.


It's sub par. If I want a caster with a pet I'm now FAR weaker than the other options (caster with a pet- druid/ few spells and melee with a pet -Hunter/ranger).
They took away the customizability of the eidolon, which while necessary at some tables was not necessary as a whole and could have been fixed without breaking it completely. By forcing a chassis AND lowering evo points the few choices that you do have are pigeonholed into the must haves leaving an illusion of choice but no real choice. By weakening the spell list and having even less spell castings you force the summoner to either stand there the majority of the time or jump into melee, even less options.


Eltacolibre wrote:
The summoner is still a very solid class , reading the book, it has simply been toned down to expected power levels at certain levels. You can still summon monster SLA all day, eventually cast Gate as usual, your eidolon is still a decent combatant. Now I suppose if your problem is I used to one shot the boss now I have to take 2 rounds...well then can't help you there.

Personally, I always *hated* the SLA and Gate abilities that the summoner had. If I was using them, it meant I wasn't doing what I wanted to be doing: interacting with my eidolon. I kinda wish that those abilities had been nerfed or taken away instead.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Eltacolibre wrote:
The summoner is still a very solid class , reading the book, it has simply been toned down to expected power levels at certain levels. You can still summon monster SLA all day, eventually cast Gate as usual, your eidolon is still a decent combatant. Now I suppose if your problem is I used to one shot the boss now I have to take 2 rounds...well then can't help you there.

Can't people say a class/whatever is good enough without that kind of silly high horse attitude?


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Matrix Dragon wrote:
Eltacolibre wrote:
The summoner is still a very solid class , reading the book, it has simply been toned down to expected power levels at certain levels. You can still summon monster SLA all day, eventually cast Gate as usual, your eidolon is still a decent combatant. Now I suppose if your problem is I used to one shot the boss now I have to take 2 rounds...well then can't help you there.
Personally, I always *hated* the SLA and Gate abilities that the summoner had. If I was using them, it meant I wasn't doing what I wanted to be doing: interacting with my eidolon. I kinda wish that those abilities had been nerfed or taken away instead.

Spirit Summoner?

Edit: There's also Blood God Disciple, but, a) racial, b) ehhhhh.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Cross-posted from another thread:

Ravingdork wrote:
claudekennilol wrote:
What makes you think that "increase the damage die by one step" increase a 1d10 attack a 1d12 and not to 2d8 like every other damage die increase in the game?

The summoner's Improved Damage entry clearly states "your damage die type increases by one step"

The only die TYPES in the game are the d4, d6, d8, d10 (and d%), d12, and d20.

EDIT: Looking at it again, they changed the verbiage of the eidolon's Improved Damage evolution in Unchained, removing exactly one word.

Improved Damage (Ex): One of the eidolon's natural attacks is particularly deadly. Select one natural attack form and increase the damage die type by one step. This evolution can be selected more than once. Its effects do not stack. Each time an eidolon selects this evolution, it applies to a different natural attack.

And now the FAQ entry for completeness' sake...

Size increases and effective size increases: How does damage work if I have various effects that change my actual size, my effective size, and my damage dice?
As per the rules on size changes, size changes do not stack, so if you have multiple size changing effects (for instance an effect that increases your size by one step and another that increases your size by two steps), only the largest applies. The same is true of effective size increases (which includes “deal damage as if they were one size category larger than they actually are,” “your damage die type increases by one step,” and similar language). They don’t stack with each other, just take the biggest one. However, you can have one of each and they do work together (for example, enlarge person increasing your actual size to Large and a bashing shield increasing your shield’s effective size by two steps, for a total of 2d6 damage).

So yeah, they totally nerfed the eidolon BIG time.

Make of that what you will!

251 to 300 of 401 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / General Discussion / [Unchained] "Unchained Summoner" vs "APG Summoner" FIGHT! All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.