Wrong forum.
This is general Pathfinder discussion. You want the PFS forums.
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IMO, the ban on illiterates is not so much a table disruption issue, but an in-game fluff rejection: the Pathfinder Society requires agents who can reliably report in the form of chronicles. They are an employer and, while there are certainly characters who are opportunistically there with low intelligence and no desire to read/write, these characters are able and can ostensibly handle that job duty.
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I think you guys are all ignoring the fact that the True Primitive barbarian archetype is perfectly legal in Pathfinder Society and has the explicit requirement that the barbarian will never learn to read or write.
Please consider giving the OP the due time and consideration before handing out stock responses that ignore the legitimate point(s) they themselves have taken the time to bring up.
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Please consider giving the OP the due time and consideration before handing out stock responses that ignore the legitimate point(s) they themselves have taken the time to bring up.
To be fair, there are quite a few existing threads covering this issue already. "Stock responses" may be inevitable here because this has been discussed in the past.
Thread 1
Thread 2
Thread 3
Thread 4
Just on the first page of the search.
To my knowledge there hasn't been a solid justification of why one is banned but not the other.
Venture-Captain, Netherlands
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I seem to recal reading in a previous discussion that Feral Child was banned because it explicitly call for playing a minor. While age gives no mechanical benefit for FPS characters, campaign leadership felt it was not apropriate to have someone play a minor. There are just too many scenarios that the Decemvirate would not send a child into. And too many scenarios where someone could exploit the characters age to reach certain goals. (minors in a brothel comes to mind).
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Venture-Captain, Netherlands
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Please tell me the title of this thread was intended...Yes, Yes it was.
Woran, that would actually explain a lot, though it doesnt call for a child character, Tarzan for example is a feral child raised by primates.
I just read it back in the PRD, and it does not have an actual age requirement. But the way the entry is worded it is highly suggestive of one. (youth and child are used to describe the character, no other tems).
While some people would make a Tarzan like character, adult but naive to society, a lot of other people would make a character more akin to Mowgli.I think its very fair to ban it on that grounds. Putting a child character in a lot of the situations that happen in scenarios (adult situations that a child should not be part of), is a can of worms best left closed.
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Now this thread is making me wonder what archetypes do well for a "Raised by Wolves" background that are PFS legal.
My -1 is a feral halfling. He's a summoner - his summon is an aspect of a nature spirit that found him alone in the woods as a child and took it upon herself to raise him. That said, being raised by a "wolf" that's smarter than many barbarians has its perks, like anticipating a return to society and teaching him at least the basics of reading and writing using dirt and claws instead of paper and pen :) That, and I'm pretty sure Fluffy actually does most of the reporting - she's remarkably good at paperwork after figuring out how to work a pen with her jaws and teeth.
(I am sad that from what I've read of the Unchained summoner, this isn't really possible to emulate, all of the stock forms are pure outsiders instead of this sort of more naturey fluff)
Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Now this thread is making me wonder what archetypes do well for a "Raised by Wolves" background that are PFS legal.My -1 is a feral halfling. He's a summoner - his summon is an aspect of a nature spirit that found him alone in the woods as a child and took it upon herself to raise him. That said, being raised by a "wolf" that's smarter than many barbarians has its perks, like anticipating a return to society and teaching him at least the basics of reading and writing using dirt and claws instead of paper and pen :) That, and I'm pretty sure Fluffy actually does most of the reporting - she's remarkably good at paperwork after figuring out how to work a pen with her jaws and teeth.
(I am sad that from what I've read of the Unchained summoner, this isn't really possible to emulate, all of the stock forms are pure outsiders instead of this sort of more naturey fluff)
Well kinda, but your old eidolon was also an outsider, with the new summoner, it could be an elemental or something like that.
Nothing is preventing you from having an elemental wolf like companion who just happens to be able to fly and has luxurious wind swept fur.
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I seem to recal reading in a previous discussion that Feral Child was banned because it explicitly call for playing a minor. While age gives no mechanical benefit for FPS characters, campaign leadership felt it was not apropriate to have someone play a minor. There are just too many scenarios that the Decemvirate would not send a child into. And too many scenarios where someone could exploit the characters age to reach certain goals. (minors in a brothel comes to mind).
I think you hold the Decemvirate in far too high esteem if you think they're above child endangerment.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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After reading the true primitive again, it have to admit, that the chances of me appreciating a character with this archetype at my table are quite slim.
The "I shall never ever learn the write" bit makes if even more PFS unfriendly than being raised by animals, considering that pretty much every Pathfinder has to enter the Grand Lodge in Absalon ... make this so very weird.
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I seem to recal reading in a previous discussion that Feral Child was banned because it explicitly call for playing a minor. While age gives no mechanical benefit for FPS characters, campaign leadership felt it was not apropriate to have someone play a minor. There are just too many scenarios that the Decemvirate would not send a child into. And too many scenarios where someone could exploit the characters age to reach certain goals. (minors in a brothel comes to mind).I think you hold the Decemvirate in far too high esteem if you think they're above child endangerment.
If my Lamashtan Cleric is allowed to make his Profession: Childcare rolls as day job checks, then obviously the Decemvirate is not screening candidates vigorously.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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If my Lamashtan Cleric is allowed to make his Profession: Childcare rolls as day job checks, then obviously the Decemvirate is not screening candidates vigorously.I seem to recal reading in a previous discussion that Feral Child was banned because it explicitly call for playing a minor. While age gives no mechanical benefit for FPS characters, campaign leadership felt it was not apropriate to have someone play a minor. There are just too many scenarios that the Decemvirate would not send a child into. And too many scenarios where someone could exploit the characters age to reach certain goals. (minors in a brothel comes to mind).I think you hold the Decemvirate in far too high esteem if you think they're above child endangerment.
Well, until you start to feed some of your children, to other children everything will be mostly fine ^^
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Some scenarios describe child murder, so I have my doubts that the archetype was banned for being too young. At my local store my players have become well aware of the difference between Pathfinder and the world's oldest roleplaying game in allowing children to be harmed in the narratives. During Adventurer's League play I had a bard who said the orcs would not kill a farmer's unborn child because "that doesn't happen in this world."
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So would it be fair that so far there are no reasons to not include the feral child archetype? You are not allowed to make a character below the minimum age anyway.
And considering the...other things I have seen so far, its is quite puzzling.No, I'd say that is completely unfair given the number of opinions expressing exactly the opposite in this thread.
I'll throw my hat in with them too: an illiterate shouldn't be in PFS, it does not make sense, and therefore True Primitive should be banned too.
Agreed.
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Agreed.No, I'd say that is completely unfair given the number of opinions expressing exactly the opposite in this thread.
I'll throw my hat in with them too: an illiterate shouldn't be in PFS, it does not make sense, and therefore True Primitive should be banned too.
For once, I'm with y'all. Mike should give serious consideration to banning True Primitive.
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Well, until you start to feed some of your children, to other children everything will be mostly fine ^^If my Lamashtan Cleric is allowed to make his Profession: Childcare rolls as day job checks, then obviously the Decemvirate is not screening candidates vigorously.I seem to recal reading in a previous discussion that Feral Child was banned because it explicitly call for playing a minor. While age gives no mechanical benefit for FPS characters, campaign leadership felt it was not apropriate to have someone play a minor. There are just too many scenarios that the Decemvirate would not send a child into. And too many scenarios where someone could exploit the characters age to reach certain goals. (minors in a brothel comes to mind).I think you hold the Decemvirate in far too high esteem if you think they're above child endangerment.
I spend most of my profession time instilling a sense of interspecies tolerance and acceptance.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8
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If my Lamashtan Cleric is allowed to make his Profession: Childcare rolls as day job checks, then obviously the Decemvirate is not screening candidates vigorously.I seem to recal reading in a previous discussion that Feral Child was banned because it explicitly call for playing a minor. While age gives no mechanical benefit for FPS characters, campaign leadership felt it was not apropriate to have someone play a minor. There are just too many scenarios that the Decemvirate would not send a child into. And too many scenarios where someone could exploit the characters age to reach certain goals. (minors in a brothel comes to mind).I think you hold the Decemvirate in far too high esteem if you think they're above child endangerment.
I think that it is more than a bit disingenuous to point to a choice you as a player made for your character over which neither the out of game campaign staff or the in game Decemvirate has much (if any) control as evidence of malfeasance on behalf of the Decemvirate.
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I think that it is more than a bit disingenuous to point to a choice you as a player made for your character over which neither the out of game campaign staff or the in game Decemvirate has much (if any) control as evidence of malfeasance on behalf of the Decemvirate.
Yeah, there's already more than enough malfeasance on the Decemvirate's part that they don't need us pinning PC actions on them :)
My current Decemvirate conspiracy theory is that one of them is a powerful diviner who has predicted a coming global disaster. In order to live through the event, they're building a doomsday bunker in the basement of the Grand Lodge (what we call the Dark Archive), and sending the Pathfinders out to fill their bunker with magical goodies they can use to survive the ordeal.
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I think that it is more than a bit disingenuous to point to a choice you as a player made for your character over which neither the out of game campaign staff or the in game Decemvirate has much (if any) control as evidence of malfeasance on behalf of the Decemvirate.
I run an orphanage and I have goats. There was bound to be some intersection here or there and hopefully some Satyrs along the road.
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I totally forgot that one of my most memorable runs of First Steps included a True Primitive Barbarian.
Last time I played with her she was either 3rd or 4th level, IIRC. She took trophy fetishes from all of her kills and described the important ones as part of her character introduction. I miss GMing for her =(.
If the decision comes down to removing the True Primitive from play, at least let those (few) that have one get to keep them.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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I totally forgot that one of my most memorable runs of First Steps included a True Primitive Barbarian.
Last time I played with her she was either 3rd or 4th level, IIRC. She took trophy fetishes from all of her kills and described the important ones as part of her character introduction. I miss GMing for her =(.
If the decision comes down to removing the True Primitive from play, at least let those (few) that have one get to keep them.
We have a local witch player who does pretty much the same (and adds those skulls to his staff), the RP and the mechanical aspect of the class can be separated without any problems attached. Not being mechanically able to read or write (or to learn to do so) is unlike to be a make or break a character concept.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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For once, I'm with y'all. Mike should give serious consideration to banning True Primitive.Agreed.No, I'd say that is completely unfair given the number of opinions expressing exactly the opposite in this thread.
I'll throw my hat in with them too: an illiterate shouldn't be in PFS, it does not make sense, and therefore True Primitive should be banned too.
The True Primitive is someone a lot closer to the concept of society and unlike the Feral Child DOES have experience with the concept of language and storytelling. If he can not write, he can give oral reportage with exacting detail of his voyages, his surroundings, and his companions. He understands the concepts of societies, groupings, and leadershio in human or sapient terms. Far more developed than the gatherings of apes, or the alpha-beta system of wolves and cats.
The True Primitive definitely would probably not have been trained at teh Grand Lodge, he's probably much more likely to have been Field Commisioned.
The difference seems to be, that the true primitive actively avoids adapting to civilized society:
Isolated and xenophobic tribes that dwell in areas untouched by civilization often see anything from cities and organized settlements as strange, dangerous, and decadent. They gain power from their truly primitive nature; their bodies and spirits are hardened by the wild and untainted existence far from the pathetic softness of so-called civilization. Even when forced to mingle with civilization, the true primitive stays apart in both traditions and trappings.
I find it a bit questionable, that a character like this would have willingly joined the Pathfinder Society as a full member.
And a lot of RP interactions could result in characters breaking the "don't be a jerk" rule, however I haven't actually witnessed (or even heard from ) such an event.|
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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If he can not write, he can give oral reportage with exacting detail of his voyages, his surroundings, and his companions.
Clerk: "Venture-Captain, I have the latest report from the Pathfinders sent to the Blakros Museum."
Dreng: "Very well, put it on my desk."
C: "I'm afraid I can't do that, sir."
D: "Why not?"
C: "Well... it's a singing telegram."
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If he can not write, he can give oral reportage with exacting detail of his voyages, his surroundings, and his companions.Clerk: "Venture-Captain, I have the latest report from the Pathfinders sent to the Blakros Museum."
Dreng: "Very well, put it on my desk."
C: "I'm afraid I can't do that, sir."
D: "Why not?"
C: "Well... it's a singing telegram."
*chuckle*
Remember though that many stories survived as oral tales poems and epics for thousands of years before being written down. People used to memorize virtual encyclopedias of stories poems and songs in their head. Getting an oral report probably wasn't all that unusual.