Fleet would be worth it for 10'. At +5' I just don't see it worth spending a feat on. If I'm Slow (20' base speed) it's likely that I'll have ranged weapons. Moving 20' and firing a crossbow/bow generally covers me at low levels. At higher levels I've got magic.
For running away chances are that my foes have decent speed and possibly different movement types. A Mite has a Climb speed as do many mounts employed by kobolds. My point is that running away at low levels, before movement-based magic items, is like a 50/50 shot even with a 30' base.
it is also worth noting that there are many ways to gain additional movement that are far less costly than fleet and offer much more:
- lots of dips could give you a boost to your movement speed plus a bunch of other abilities (Barbarian for fast movement + rage + rage power + ... with lots of archetype options), a level of cleric (or a druid that can get access to the Travel domain such as a wolf shaman archetype) would also give additional speed plus a bunch of other class features
Any of these options would let you get more movement plus a bunch of other abilities and still have a feat to invest (boon companion if you took a level of druid for example) or many other options.
- or you could dip into any class that would give you access to spells that would enhance your movement - Longstrider is long lasting, expeditious retreat is more movement but shorter duration (or spend your feat enhancing your UMD and pick up scrolls or a wand - I have many PFS characters that have picked up a wand of Longstrider)
- at higher levels there are items which will give you greater movement
- upgrade/enhance your armor if that is slowing you down (or take levels of fighter for armor training though that takes a while
At higher levels druids etc excel as scouts because they can wild shape into forms with additional movement options (flight speeds of 60 or 100 for example). But any character could buy a potion of fly for emergencies - not just useful for fighting flying foes but also for fleeing foes on the ground (since your fly speed is likely far faster than your running speed).
In general I don't think Fleet is a particularly good feat for PC's. It can be ok for a mount (though there are better feats for animal companions in most cases) - while movement is really helpful there are just so many other ways to achieve the same goals and many other feats that will always have utility
Also, get constant expiditious retreat for 4,000 gold (EDIT: 1,800 if you just want it at-will/command word), or 8,000-and-change, if you want to be really stylish*.
Hm. Now I know what I'm doing for that one character...
* The last link is 3rd party, and isn't really meant to show anything specific, mechanically, in this case, other than there is precedent for invisible ink magical things. :D
As a rule of thumb, though I'm not sure this is documented anywhere, it seems to me that making spells that have short durations (rounds or minutes) as constant effects is generally more unbalancing than making spells which have long durations as constant effects.
Hence doubling the price for minutes-per-day, and quadrupling the price for any spell with a duration measured in rounds.
Endure elements would be only 1,000 gold.
Also bear in mind, that's the price to buy the item.
Making it would be half of what I've listed.
(Incidentally, the boots in question cost 2,750 to make and 5,500 to buy. You'd be paying 1,000 for the longstrider, 2,500 for the skill bonus, but it does two things, so increase the lower by half, to 1,500, bumping it up to 4,000 price... with an arbitrary 1,500 added in.)
EDIT: Aaaactually, it's 3k for the longstrider (CL 3rd, not 1st, despite being a 1st-level spell {SL*CL*2k <no additional modifier for duration>}), and thus it's the skill price * 1.5 {2,500*1.5 = 2,500+1,250 = 3,750}... making the total cost 6,750... which means you're getting a discount on the boots of 1,250 gold. Go figure.
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Paizo doesn't follow their own "rules" for item creation for a reason.
Paizo doesn't follow their own "rules" for item creation for a reason.
Exept on bracers of falcon aim and slippers of feather step and my group banned those:)
The way to price a 30 ft enhancement bonus based on paizo's typical pricing is to figure out the price of a 10 ft enhancement bonus and multiply that by 9. Most equations use the square of the bonus for the price, so tripling the bonus increases the cost of the item by 3 squared=9.
I suspect that the +5 to jumps is valued at 1000 - +5 to acrobatics would be 2500, and 1000x1.5(multiple ability tax) makes the price for an enhancement bonus of 10 ft equal 4k. Thus a 30 ft bonus would be 36k.
that's the formula - but my point is that the stuff about the formulas just being a starting point
I think I made that point pretty clear with comparing the actual price of the item compared to the formula price of the item?
But...
... should probably kick in more frequently for spells that have shorter durations usually and items that would make them last longer - especially if they are "constant" effects vs command activated (and thus standard actions) triggering the spell as a spell (so a limited duration of the spell).
That... that's covered. I literally covered that. That is exactly what I talked about, by the formula.
"Constant" is 2k*CL*SL... modified by the duration of the effect.
> *4 if measured in rounds
> *2 if 1 min./level
> *1.5 if 10 min/level
> 1/2 for 24 hours or greater
Now, if you think the formula is incorrect, by all means. I don't mind that, but that isn't what you're saying. The actual things you are saying are covered by the actual formulas themselves.
i.e. even with that limitation a ring of invisibility or a ring of blinking are really really powerful and priced accordingly (though rings in general are harder to price per the rules)
For the boots the skill boost is a restricted one (i.e. just to jumping, not to all acrobatics checks) which may be why the discount.
Fair 'nough. That makes a bit of sense to me, too.
In a really weird/round about sort of way, it kind works out: the [2500/3]*1.5 ~>1250, which, when tied into the 3,000 gets to 4,250. Average that with the 6,750 price, and you get the "correct" price... heh.
Let's see if we can reverse-engineer that, actually.
1,250 v. 3,750 ~> 5k added together ~> 2,500 on average. Heh. Niiiice.
They simply didn't multiply the *1.5 effect. I'm kind of dumb for not seeing it before: they simply took the 2,500 for the skill bonus and added it to the 3,000 for the constant spell effect.
Hm... I wonder if this was just inherited from 3.5?
It's certainly interesting that they didn't even try to modify the pricing of the +5 to the skill.
I still think 4000gp for a continuous +30 enhancement bonus to movement speed is priced too low - possibly the solution is to raise the CL from 1st to something more like 9-10? that would make the item 18,000-20,000 which while high seems more reasonable for a Continuous use item. Making it a Once per day item would make it 4500-5000 which also seems more reasonable. High, but not unreasonable - it would then be a pretty good "get out of dodge" item. If you feel those prices are too high adjust the CL down a bit - but I think CL 1 for an item like this (if continuous) is too low IMHO
'Sup to you in your games! :D
Paizo doesn't follow their own "rules" for item creation for a reason.Exept on bracers of falcon aim and slippers of feather step and my group banned those:)
Heh.
The way to price a 30 ft enhancement bonus based on paizo's typical pricing is to figure out the price of a 10 ft enhancement bonus and multiply that by 9. Most equations use the square of the bonus for the price, so tripling the bonus increases the cost of the item by 3 squared=9.
I suspect that the +5 to jumps is valued at 1000 - +5 to acrobatics would be 2500, and 1000x1.5(multiple ability tax) makes the price for an enhancement bonus of 10 ft equal 4k. Thus a 30 ft bonus would be 36k.
This is... a really weird conclusion to draw. Interesting idea, but exceedingly arbitrary.
1000*1.5 = 1,500 as opposed to 2,500.
The price is 2500 because it's 5*5 (the bonus squared) *100.
The price of the continuous spell would be 3k, as noted (due to having a CL 3rd).
I mean, I see where you're coming from, but the 10 ft. bonus is literally the exact effect of the longstrider spell, verbatim. Like, word-for-word.
Ultimately, I think the one thing we can all agree on is that the formulas need to be taken with a grain of salt and a degree of trust between GM and player. Hence the suggestions in that chapter.
(Though their comparison of a sword of true strike is hilariously incorrect, but that is neither here nor there.) :D
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So you're gonna be Small sized and also slow right? Don't want to invest in Fleet? Here's some options:
1. Take ranks in Handle Animal and Ride; dominate and train an animal of Medium size that has faster move/different Movement types than your own
2. Take a class or archetype that gets an Animal Companion; follow #1
3. Take a class or archetype that grants access to a Familiar. Now you have 2 other options:
A. select a Small sized familiar and utilize Reduce Person
B. Take the Mauler Familiar archetype; by 3rd level the familiar can achieve Medium size
Alongside these options are 50 GP for a potion of Expeditious Retreat; 750 GP for a wand; (if a spellcaster) 25 GP for a scroll. There are so many ways to gain a little extra move situationally that I don't know that I'd need to spend a feat on it.
although relevant to this discussion are Horseshoes of Speed which do grant +30' to land speed and only cost 3000gp (but as they are limited to animals with 4 hooves who generally have a 50' base speed the boost while significant is proportionally less and not effecting most PC's makes them a bit less broken. But for a mount (or a centaur) they seem pretty solid. Definitely no consistency in how items are priced (and indeed slippers of feather step are ridiculously underpriced)
Hm... 10 min/lvl, 3rd CL, 1st level effect... 3k*1.5 = yeah, pretty much. They must feel the ability warrants the price tag.
Though they use haste as the base spell, they're pretty clearly based on expeditious retreat mechanics, in which case it works out swimmingly. Weird prereqs, though, yeah.
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50 GP for a potion of Expeditious Retreat
Expeditious Retreat is Personal. No potions allowed.
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50 GP for a potion of Expeditious RetreatExpeditious Retreat is Personal. No potions allowed.
Fine, fine, you're right, you're right.
An elixir of swift fleeing it is, then!
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Unfortunately, unless your goal is to outrun your companions when fleeing from a bear or something, you are usually limited to the speed of the slowest party member in your group.Honestly, 5 feet really don't matters, especially in long runs.Actually, long runs are when an extra 5 feet on your movement speed matters the most.
The key to survival lies in NOT being the slowest party member.
Definitely worth the pick for an animal companion. Gnome cavalier, level 5, with a racer archetype Giant Snapping Turtle can be moving as fast as a horse on a turtle. Combine with the taunt feat and Order of the Cockatrice for best effect.
EDIT:The above only works w/beast rider cavalier
For an actual character? Expeditious Retreat is a good scroll. Super cheap, rarely needed, with just enough duration to buy the time you need to do something more helpful. This assumes you don't already have a mount spell running (or Phantom Steed). The number of times you need to be exactly 70' away (rather than 60' from the above scroll or a double move, or further from a run action) is exceedingly rare, moreso when we discuss running with Run v. Fleet v. simply running normally or with Expeditious Retreat or on a mount.
The value of fleet is all those times where you are 5' short of being able to move into position without double moving. It's nice being able to move into flanking position without provoking and getting an attack in the same round.
The value of fleet is all those times where you are 5' short of being able to move into position without double moving. It's nice being able to move into flanking position without provoking and getting an attack in the same round.
While not wearing medium or heavy armor.
The value of fleet is all those times where you are 5' short of being able to move into position without double moving. It's nice being able to move into flanking position without provoking and getting an attack in the same round.While not wearing medium or heavy armor.
A lot of characters in medium armor already use mithral to avoid movement penalties.
The problem with Fleet isn't whether increased movement speed is useful - because it is - but rather that the bonus it gives is just too low. +5 is just significantly lower than other comparable effects. Almost everything else that modifies movement speed does so in multiples of 10, making Fleet half as substantial as the weakest effects you will ever encounter.
Why would you ever take Fleet when there are plethora of low-level spells, cheap magic items, easily accessible class features, and other effects that are at minimum twice as powerful as it? If it were +10 it still wouldn't be a great feat choice, but it would be a usable one.
"5 additional feet of base movement" really isn't worth a feat, it's more in line with "an alternative racial trait" (e.g. the "Long-Limbed" one from Horror Adventures Elves can trade their weapon familiarity for).
The Barbarian's Fast Movement might be worth a feat though.
I don't
I agree, there are too many other methods that are more effective. I usually spring for a pair a boots.
Make it +20 feet and you'd actually see it taken now and then.
Hell, even +10 would get picked occasionally.
Tribal scars raptor scale is fleet and more.
fleet, +5ft of movement in light armor.
Tribal scars +6hp, +5ft of movement always, +2 acrobatics.
yeah, 5ft of movement is maybe about half of a good feat.
Yeah, Fleet is a good effect, just not quite strong enough.
I have considered doing a fighter/barbarian that does the spring attack line of feats, and takes Fleet as every noncombat feat (except one to avoid delaying Spring-Heeled Sprint). A Barbarian 1/Fighter 6 with:
Dodge
Mobility
Shot on the Run
Spring-Heeled Style
Spring-Heeled Sprint
Fleet x4
Can move 120 feet in a round and attack once at any point in that movement. In many combat environments, you're effectively immune to non-held actions. Add in gloves of Arrow Snaring, Enlarge Person, a reach weapon and Boots of Striding and Springing, you can go 140 feet in a round, attack once at any point in that range and be very hard to pin down with anything other than readied actions and tricky geometry.
Tack on a 1 level oracle, 1 level cleric dips for Cinder Dance + Travel Domain and a wand of Expeditious Retreat, and you can be doing 240 feet of movement with an attack every round by level 11, and run at 110 miles per hour.
Damage is low, but you make up for it by being actually impossible to catch a lot of the time. Just kite people to death with a bow or pike depending on the tactical situation. It has enough drawbacks that it doesn't break the game or anything, but is weird enough that I might try to do it for fun some day.