Help with a Two-Weapon Fighting build...


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So to start off, besides the obvious build I'm looking for, I want to have some fun and also go 2 levels into Titan Mauler and wielding 2 Greatswords possibly... We do a 4d6 take the highest 3 for stats, came out with this for stats.. (I rolled awesome) aha, and starting at lvl 12(I expect my paladin to die soon)

18, 16, 10, 18, 12, 17. That's before race bonus, as well as another possible +1-2 or a stat from background points we do.

Unsure which would be the best route, obviously 2 levels are already decided for some point. But can't decide between Fighter or Ranger to go with the TWF part. Suggestions or help? :)

Shadow Lodge

Fighter two weapon warrior might be a good choice, it has some nice abilities that mitigate penalties.


If you are thinking about 2 Greatswords, consider the Thunder and Fang Feat. It will let you wield an Earthbreaker hammer as a 1 handed weapon and a Klar as a Light Weapon. Earthbreakers do 2d6 damage, and there is a +1 shield enchantment called Bashing, which will bump up your Shield Bash with the Klar from 1d6 to 2d6, and that is before you even start enchanting the Klar as a weapon.


I'd highly suggest you take an Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat (or racial trait, if you can get one to work for you), go pure Two-Weapon Warrior, and just use a couple Bastard Swords instead. Although they aren't 2D6, they're 1D10, they don't cost you a -2 to hit, and they scale better than D8->D6 base dice. This is primarily because you can afford a Dexterity that allows you to naturally bypass the attribute requirements.

Your attribute allocation should look something like this after racials and level-up stats:

Strength 23 (18 + 2 racial + 3 via levels)
Dexterity 17
Constitution 18
Intelligence 12
Wisdom 16
Charisma 10

That build grants a good Will Save, high amounts of to-hit and damage, plus some decent AC and durable hit points. (An extra skill point too, and no negative Charisma, but those aren't important things here.)

12th level Two-Weapon Warrior with Impact Bastard Swords (which makes them 2D8) that can full-attack for extra to-hit/damage, all the while only having a -1 to hit (which vanishes by 15th level).

Here is the feat progression, * = Bonus Feats:

1: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword)
1*: Two-Weapon Fighting
2*: Double Slice
3: Power Attack
4*: Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword)
5: Iron Will
6*: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
7: Weapon Specialization (Bastard Sword)
8*: Greater Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword)
9: Improved Critical (Bastard Sword)
10*: Greater Weapon Specialization (Bastard Sword) [Re-Trained]
11: Two-Weapon Rend
12*: Combat Reflexes
---
13: Improved Iron Will
14*: Penetrating Strike
15: Hammer the Gap
16*: Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
17: Strong Comeback
18*: Greater Penetrating Strike
19: Toughness
20*: Improved Initiative

If you get 2 Traits, take Indomitable Faith and Reactionary. For Skills, Max Perception and do whatever you want with the other 2 points you get.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

If you can afford it money-wise, take advantage of starting at level 12, get a Sun Sword and off hand a shortsword. No need for EWP, you can use short sword for weapon spec and weapon group, and you can get another sun sword at a higher level if you want to.

==Aelryinth


Darksol, rather than take Exotic Weapon Proficiency Bastard Sword, why not just be a Tengu or a Dwarf? Tengu get to use Bastard swords as a Racial Trait, and so do Dwarves, only Dwarves call their Bastard Swords Dwarven War Axes.

I do feel compelled to point out that with Thunder and Fang, your weapons do more damage than with 2 Bastard Swords.

At level 11 with the 2 weapon warrior Fighter Archetype, you may wield 2 1-handed weapons as if you were wielding a 1 handed weapon and a light weapon, and Thunder and Fang lets you wield an Earthbreaker as if it were a 1 handed weapon. You were talking about wielding 2 greatswords: how about 2 Earthbreakers?

With the Bashing Enchantment on your Klar, both your Klar and your Earthbreaker do 2d6. Plus you get an AC bonus for using a shield.


Maybe I'm missing a FAQ or something, but the Bashing enchantment doesn't affect Klar damage. Base Klar damage is not shield bash damage, they're separate weapons that also count as light spiked shields (1d4 bash damage). A +1 Bashing Klar would let you bash for 1d8 (actually, it's still up for debate whether shield spikes and bashing stack, so it could be 1d6) or "Klar" for 1d6.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Darksol, rather than take Exotic Weapon Proficiency Bastard Sword, why not just be a Tengu or a Dwarf? Tengu get to use Bastard swords as a Racial Trait, and so do Dwarves, only Dwarves call their Bastard Swords Dwarven War Axes.

I do feel compelled to point out that with Thunder and Fang, your weapons do more damage than with 2 Bastard Swords.

At level 11 with the 2 weapon warrior Fighter Archetype, you may wield 2 1-handed weapons as if you were wielding a 1 handed weapon and a light weapon, and Thunder and Fang lets you wield an Earthbreaker as if it were a 1 handed weapon. You were talking about wielding 2 greatswords: how about 2 Earthbreakers?

With the Bashing Enchantment on your Klar, both your Klar and your Earthbreaker do 2d6. Plus you get an AC bonus for using a shield.

Humans get a bonus feat (which can be used for this) and Half-Elves can choose a racial trait that grants an EWP. Although you basically get the EWP for free as either of these races, the Tengu and Dwarf don't include Strength bonuses in their racial stats, so they're not horrible, but aren't ideal either.

If you're comparing the damage dice from Earthbreakers and Klars, it's a 17.5 average damage dealt (for each combo attack hit) versus the Bastard Swords' 18 average damage dealt (for each combo attack hit). Assuming Impact/Bashing, the Bastard Swords weigh out simply due to their scaling damage progression. Before those are applied, you're comparing a 10.5 average to an 11 average, so unbuffed, the Bastard Swords still outweigh the T&F damage dice.

Additionally, Thunder and Fang require that you invest in two separate Weapon Focus feats, one for each weapon type, in order to be effective. There are feats that can be better spent elsewhere, especially when, as a Two-Weapon Warrior, you can cover both feats with a single feat slot, allowing you get more important feats (such as the specialization feats, Penetrating Strike chain, etc). If you want to make use of the Klar's Shield AC, you also have to invest in Improved Shield Bash so you can retain the AC when you make attacks with it. So that's 2 extra feats for an effective (at best) 6 Shield AC (which compared to the Dodge/Two-Weapon Shield feats, is quite the bargain).

But people don't go TWF for AC benefits. That's what Sword and Boards are for (and their damage usually sucks anyway). Players go TWF for Crit Fishing, and although Bastard Swords aren't ideal, the OP specifically wants big damage dice, and Bastard Swords scale better in damage dice than Greatswords (without implementing a painful -4 to hit, only a -1, which goes away by 15th), and it doesn't require that he dip 2 levels in a class that isn't worth it in comparison.


mplindustries wrote:
Maybe I'm missing a FAQ or something, but the Bashing enchantment doesn't affect Klar damage. Base Klar damage is not shield bash damage, they're separate weapons that also count as light spiked shields (1d4 bash damage). A +1 Bashing Klar would let you bash for 1d8 (actually, it's still up for debate whether shield spikes and bashing stack, so it could be 1d6) or "Klar" for 1d6.

A Klar is a shield. Attacking with a Klar is therefore a shield bash. Light and heavy, spiked and unspiked shields are also listed as weapons, even though attacking with them is a shield bash.

Since a Klar is a Shield, it can take the Bashing enchantment. A Klar's listed damage is 1d6. The Bashing Shield enchantment lets it inflict damage as if it were 2 sizes bigger, from 1d6 to 1d8 to 2d6.

What makes you think that a Klar is not a shield like other shields? It's in the list of shields. It has a listed damage. The description says it's a shield. It seems pretty clear to me that it is a shield with a listed AC protection and a listed damage.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
If you're comparing the damage dice from Earthbreakers and Klars, it's a 17.5 average damage dealt (for each combo attack hit) versus the Bastard Swords' 18 average damage dealt (for each combo attack hit). Assuming Impact/Bashing, the Bastard Swords weigh out simply due to their scaling damage progression. Before those are applied, you're comparing a 10.5 average to an 11 average, so unbuffed, the Bastard Swords still outweigh the T&F damage dice.

Hm, unbuffed, Klar and Earthbreaker do 10.5 damage compared with 2 bastard swords' 11. But I am thinking of buffing the Klar with the Bashing Enchantment, which raises the damage to 2d6 and the combo's damage to 4d6 for a total of 14.

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Additionally, Thunder and Fang require that you invest in two separate Weapon Focus feats, one for each weapon type, in order to be effective. There are feats that can be better spent elsewhere, especially when, as a Two-Weapon Warrior, you can cover both feats with a single feat slot, allowing you get more important feats (such as the specialization feats, Penetrating Strike chain, etc). If you want to make use of the Klar's Shield AC, you also have to invest in Improved Shield Bash so you can retain the AC when you make attacks with it. So that's 2 extra feats for an effective (at best) 6 Shield AC (which compared to the Dodge/Two-Weapon Shield feats, is quite the bargain).

Fair to say, what I'm proposing is expensive, and what I would do with the build next would be even more expensive, taking Shield Slam, Greater Bull Rush, and Paired Opportunist to create a looping AoO build.

But you are proposing 2 bastard swords which also requires some expensive trickery, maybe 11 levels in pure fighter with a very particular archetype. What I'm proposing can be accomplished by like level 3. Since the OP is talking about starting at like level 12, that may not be a problem, but it might be. What I'm losing at the cost of 2 feats, I'm gaining in character building and multiclassing flexibility.

Another, similar idea would be using a heavy spiked shield, also with the bashing enchantment in conjunction with a Pole arm via about 5 levels in Fighter with the Phalanx Soldier Archetype. The fighter might use something like Lucern Hammer and Shield, attacking different opponents at different distances, sometimes with the shield, sometimes with the reach weapon. In this case, you wouldn't even take the 2 weapon feat. Also not exactly what the OP seems to have in mind, but also pretty cool.

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
But people don't go TWF for AC benefits. hat's what Sword and Boards are for (and their damage usually sucks anyway).

To each his own, but I am demonstrating that sword and board builds do not have to have poor damage. One idea I had for incorporating a Bastard Sword into a 2wf build would be with a Tengu. I would take some levels in Monk Master of Many Styles. the 2wf combination would be Sword and Unarmed Strike. I would also take Snake Fang and get lots of attacks of opportunity, wearing Armor and Shield for an awesome AC. and awesome damage.


Well, since people have gone on about thunder and fang so much, I guess I should not feel entirely guilt about my own tangent- they have released a half decent double weapon in the simple category.

The weighted spear is just that, a spear with a hard, heavy, smashy bit on the other end. Nothing flashy, but it does give you a double weapon that can be made from special materials (which is one of the main flaws of quarterstaves), with no extra feats or race selections needed.

Just a nice little thing where you can 2hand for standard action attacks. And it also gives you options when face a skeleton's DR/bludgeoning, and such. It can also be nice compared to thunder and fang due to the fact that you do not need sperate weapon focuses and such (which is a big deal for a fighter; ranger/slayers? not so much)

Dark Archive

An important note is that unless you burn money on Effortless Lace to use on your second Bastard Sword (which may or may not be available), you're taking a -4/-4 on your attacks, vs. the -2/-2 on Thunder and Fang (unless you are TWFing with a pair Earthbreakers, then it has the same penalty).

The Two Weapon Warrior archetype eventually DOES change this... after eleven levels. I don't know how many campaigns you play in that get past that point, but I'd imagine most games don't even get that far.

Just saying that the Bastard Sword option is not really cut-and-dry better, really.


lemeres wrote:

Well, since people have gone on about thunder and fang so much, I guess I should not feel entirely guilt about my own tangent- they have released a half decent double weapon in the simple category.

The weighted spear is just that, a spear with a hard, heavy, smashy bit on the other end. Nothing flashy, but it does give you a double weapon that can be made from special materials (which is one of the main flaws of quarterstaves), with no extra feats or race selections needed.

Just a nice little thing where you can 2hand for standard action attacks. And it also gives you options when face a skeleton's DR/bludgeoning, and such. It can also be nice compared to thunder and fang due to the fact that you do not need sperate weapon focuses and such (which is a big deal for a fighter; ranger/slayers? not so much)

I don't think that in principle mentioning a double weapon is out of line for a 2wf thread.


Personally, if you want to go the route of having heavy damage like that, I would go with dual wielding 2 Keen Impacting Katanas, which would give you two 2d6(15-20/x3) as a level 20 fighter. The Impact enhancement giving them the 2d6, Keen making the 18-20 to a 15-20, and the x2 raised by Weapon Mastery. If you use the Expanded Weapons Groups, Katanas can also fall under your Weapon Training for your +4 you can get from that, plus Gloves of Dueling will get you an extra +2 from your Weapon Training for a +6 for both to hit and damage from each weapon. Of course, this requires you to be exclusively a Fighter and your weapons will cost a total of 36,000, 18k each, with these enhancements already. Also, I only considered the base Fighter, not the Two Weapon Warrior, because you can overcome most penalties as normal and get better armor, but you would still be better off with the Archetype.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
mplindustries wrote:
Maybe I'm missing a FAQ or something, but the Bashing enchantment doesn't affect Klar damage. Base Klar damage is not shield bash damage, they're separate weapons that also count as light spiked shields (1d4 bash damage). A +1 Bashing Klar would let you bash for 1d8 (actually, it's still up for debate whether shield spikes and bashing stack, so it could be 1d6) or "Klar" for 1d6.

A Klar is a shield. Attacking with a Klar is therefore a shield bash. Light and heavy, spiked and unspiked shields are also listed as weapons, even though attacking with them is a shield bash.

Since a Klar is a Shield, it can take the Bashing enchantment. A Klar's listed damage is 1d6. The Bashing Shield enchantment lets it inflict damage as if it were 2 sizes bigger, from 1d6 to 1d8 to 2d6.

What makes you think that a Klar is not a shield like other shields? It's in the list of shields. It has a listed damage. The description says it's a shield. It seems pretty clear to me that it is a shield with a listed AC protection and a listed damage.

I disagree. A Klar is a weapon that is also a spiked shield. It is not the same thing. You don't "shield bash" with a Klar--in fact, you can also shield bash with it (for normal light spiked shield damage).

Also, there was a recent FAQ that confirmed you can't stack multiple effective size changes, so, the increase from a shield spike (which the Klar absolutely is) doesn't stack with the increase from Bashing. Likewise, if weapon damage starts below 1d6, you only go up one damage value for each size increase, rather than 2. So, 1d6 going up two sizes turns to 1d8 and then 1d10, whereas 1d8 going up one size goes to 2d6.

The very best way to dual wield is with a double weapon so you're not screwed on standard actions. They're pretty much all the same. The best news is that when you wield an oversized one (via that fighter archetype), each head does more damage, but it still counts as a one-handed weapon and a light weapon for TWF purposes.


mplindustries wrote:
I disagree. A Klar is a weapon that is also a spiked shield. It is not the same thing. You don't "shield bash" with a Klar--in fact, you can also shield bash with it (for normal light spiked shield damage).

Okay, you disagree.

But a heavy spiked shield is also a weapon that is also a shield. All shields are in fact weapons that are also in fact shields. I think that because both heavy and light, spiked and unspiked shields are on the weapons lists. That's why I think all shields are weapons that are also shields. Why do you think the Klar is different? The Klar is on the Armor and Shields list as a shield. That's why I think it's a shield: why don't you? When you bash with a light, unspiked shield, it does 1d3, like it says on the weapon list. Bashing with a light spiked shield or a heavy unspiked shield does 1d4. Bashing with a heavy spiked shield or a klar does 1d6. I think this because it says it's a shield, and attacking with a shield is called bashing. The damage any given shield does when you bash with it is given on the weapon list.

Quote us the rules you found that demonstrates that Klars are treated differently from other shields.


mplindustries wrote:
Also, there was a recent FAQ that confirmed you can't stack multiple effective size changes, so, the increase from a shield spike (which the Klar absolutely is) doesn't stack with the increase from Bashing. Likewise, if weapon damage starts below 1d6, you only go up one damage value for each size increase, rather than 2. So, 1d6 going up two sizes turns to 1d8 and then 1d10, whereas 1d8 going up one size goes to 2d6.

Can you link that FAQ?


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
mplindustries wrote:
I disagree. A Klar is a weapon that is also a spiked shield. It is not the same thing. You don't "shield bash" with a Klar--in fact, you can also shield bash with it (for normal light spiked shield damage).

Okay, you disagree.

But a heavy spiked shield is also a weapon that is also a shield. All shields are in fact weapons that are also in fact shields. I think that because both heavy and light, spiked and unspiked shields are on the weapons lists. That's why I think all shields are weapons that are also shields. Why do you think the Klar is different? The Klar is on the Armor and Shields list as a shield. That's why I think it's a shield: why don't you? When you bash with a light, unspiked shield, it does 1d3, like it says on the weapon list. Bashing with a light spiked shield or a heavy unspiked shield does 1d4. Bashing with a heavy spiked shield or a klar does 1d6. I think this because it says it's a shield, and attacking with a shield is called bashing. The damage any given shield does when you bash with it is given on the weapon list.

Quote us the rules you found that demonstrates that Klars are treated differently from other shields.

I looked up the rule and I am mistaken. In the Inner Sea World Guide, it literally says, ""An attack with a klar is treated as an attack with shield spikes."

So, you're sort of right, that it is a bash, but since it already counts as shield spikes, it won't stack with Bashing.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
mplindustries wrote:
Also, there was a recent FAQ that confirmed you can't stack multiple effective size changes, so, the increase from a shield spike (which the Klar absolutely is) doesn't stack with the increase from Bashing. Likewise, if weapon damage starts below 1d6, you only go up one damage value for each size increase, rather than 2. So, 1d6 going up two sizes turns to 1d8 and then 1d10, whereas 1d8 going up one size goes to 2d6.
Can you link that FAQ?

Here

To quote the most relevant bits:
" If the size increases by one step, look up the original damage on the chart and increase the damage by two steps. If the initial size is Small or lower (or is treated as Small or lower) or the initial damage is 1d6 or less, instead increase the damage by one step. "

"As per the rules on size changes, size changes do not stack, so if you have multiple size changing effects (for instance an effect that increases your size by one step and another that increases your size by two steps), only the largest applies. The same is true of effective size increases (which includes “deal damage as if they were one size category larger than they actually are,” “your damage die type increases by one step,” and similar language). They don’t stack with each other, just take the biggest one. However, you can have one of each and they do work together (for example, enlarge person increasing your actual size to Large and a bashing shield increasing your shield’s effective size by two steps, for a total of 2d6 damage)."


mplindustries wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
mplindustries wrote:
I disagree. A Klar is a weapon that is also a spiked shield. It is not the same thing. You don't "shield bash" with a Klar--in fact, you can also shield bash with it (for normal light spiked shield damage).

Okay, you disagree.

But a heavy spiked shield is also a weapon that is also a shield. All shields are in fact weapons that are also in fact shields. I think that because both heavy and light, spiked and unspiked shields are on the weapons lists. That's why I think all shields are weapons that are also shields. Why do you think the Klar is different? The Klar is on the Armor and Shields list as a shield. That's why I think it's a shield: why don't you? When you bash with a light, unspiked shield, it does 1d3, like it says on the weapon list. Bashing with a light spiked shield or a heavy unspiked shield does 1d4. Bashing with a heavy spiked shield or a klar does 1d6. I think this because it says it's a shield, and attacking with a shield is called bashing. The damage any given shield does when you bash with it is given on the weapon list.

Quote us the rules you found that demonstrates that Klars are treated differently from other shields.

I looked up the rule and I am mistaken. In the Inner Sea World Guide, it literally says, ""An attack with a klar is treated as an attack with shield spikes."

So, you're sort of right, that it is a bash, but since it already counts as shield spikes, it won't stack with Bashing.

It makes more sense to use hardcover rules over non-core ones. Here's from Ultimate Equipment.

Klar wrote:
The traditional form of this tribal weapon is a short metal blade bound to the skull of a large horned lizard, but a skilled smith can craft one entirely out of metal. A traditional klar counts as a light wooden shield with armor spikes; a metal klar counts as a light steel shield with armor spikes.

So it sounds like your original assessment is correct, and since hardcover trumps non-core as far as validity is concerned, there's no reneging out of it.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

It makes more sense to use hardcover rules over non-core ones. Here's from Ultimate Equipment.

Klar wrote:
The traditional form of this tribal weapon is a short metal blade bound to the skull of a large horned lizard, but a skilled smith can craft one entirely out of metal. A traditional klar counts as a light wooden shield with armor spikes; a metal klar counts as a light steel shield with armor spikes.
So it sounds like your original assessment is correct, and since hardcover trumps non-core as far as validity is concerned, there's no reneging out of it.

While I like to be right, that actually makes less sense, because armor spikes don't normally work on shields.


mplindustries wrote:
While I like to be right, that actually makes less sense, because armor spikes don't normally work on shields.
Spiked Shield wrote:

Deadly spikes and bladed projections extend from some shields, transforming such pieces of armor into weapon in their own right. Shield spikes turn a shield into a martial piercing weapon and increase the damage dealt by a shield bash as if the shield were designed for a creature one size category larger (see "spiked light shield" and "spiked heavy shield" in the Martial Weapons table). You can't put spikes on a buckler or a tower shield. Otherwise, attacking with a spiked shield is like making a shield bash attack.

An enhancement bonus on a spiked shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but a spiked shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.

This is the same thing as Armor Spikes, just applied to shields.


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@ Darksol and mplindustries:

So, I have to admit, when I read the description of the Klar as being “a small shield with Armor Spikes,” I dismissed it, because it made no sense, and I thought if Paizo really meant that, they were being stupid.

I always saw the Klar as being a shield with an extra big spike, so it does 1d6 instead of 1d4 on a Bash, gives 1 point of AC protection, and counts as a one handed weapon when used to Bash.

But you both are bringing up this literal interpretation of the rules, and I feel forced to comply, because in truth I am all about the literal interpretation of the rules.

The Klar does not have shield spikes: it has armor spikes. So that means a wielder of a Klar will do an additional 1d6 points of damage on any successful Grapple attack, and those Armor Spikes can be used as a light, piercing weapon that does 1d6. That's what armor spikes do. But when you make an Armor Spike attack with your Klar, you are not making a Shield Bash, so you keep your Shield Bonus to AC even if you don't have the Improved Shield Bash Feat. You would only lose your shield bonus to your armor class if you were making a shield bash, and that is not what you are doing here with those Armor Spikes.

Actually, the armor spikes on one's armor would be a different weapon set than the armor spikes on the Klar, so one might make a 2 weapon attack routine with each set of spikes, one with the armor spikes on the armor, the other with the armor spikes on the shield.

You can shield bash with a Klar, and its shield bash damage is 1d6 as per the Weapons Table (what the rules say). This is the Klar's shield bash damage, not the Klar's armor spike damage as you were saying before. We know this because the Klar's listing as a weapon is as a 1 handed weapon, and an Armor Spike attack is as a light weapon. So 1d6 is the Shield Bash Damage.

There is an argument you made earlier, and I didn't address it right away partly because I only wanted to address 1 argument at a time, but also because this is an argument I particularly detest. You referred to where a spiked shield does increased damage on a shield bash as if the shield were 1 size bigger, and so the Bashing Enchantment would not stack with a spiked shield because multiple effects that increase size do not stack. Personally, I do not see how adding a spike to a shield constitutes any kind of size increase, and I do not believe that any reasonable interpretation of Spiked Shield could conclude that the Bashing Enchantment would not work normally on the shield on account of size increase rules. In other words, I think this interpretation is stupid.

But that doesn't mean that it's wrong. By the literal interpretation of the RAW, you have a point, which is why I particularly detest this interpretation. If it were simply demonstrably wrong, I could just explain why and be done with it.

I still believe it to be a false interpretation, though, and I would like to explain why. You are allowed to rack up multiple plusses on the same thing as long as they come from multiple sources. So just as you could get an AC bonus from Armor, but not 2 sets of armor, a Shield, but not 2 shields, and ONE Ring of Protection, so you can grow to larger size and do extra damage, like with the Enlarge Person spell, and you can have some kind of magical momentum-enhancing thing put on your shield that make you inflict damage as if you were 1 size bigger: the Bashing Enchantment. Having a spike put on your shield that makes it do more damage, the same amount more damage as if you were 1 size bigger, conceptually seems like a 3rd very different source, and I really do believe that they should stack regularly.

However, as you both pointed out, the Klar is not a Spiked Shield! A Klar is treated as a Light Shield with Armor Spikes, not a Light, Spiked Shield with Armor Spikes. And while it does do 1d6 piercing damage on a shield bash as a 1 handed weapon, that damage is just due to the intrinsic damage of the shield, and not some shield-spike +1 size increase. And that means that even if you were correct about other shields with spikes not benefitting fully from the Bashing Enchantment, the same cannot be said about the Klar. That is because the Klar does not have Shield Spikes: it has Armor Spikes, and that is something else entirely.

A shield can be enchanted as a weapon and/or as a shield. The Klar's Armor Spikes can enchanted as yet another weapon, which means that the Thunder and Fang warrior with his Klar can also be quite a cornucopia of weaponry, with an Alchemal Silver hammer, an adamantine klar with cold iron spikes. The hammer can get Ghost Touch, and the klar can get Brilliant Energy. You wouldn't enchant the cold iron spikes on the klar, so instead you'd enchant the ones on your armor, with Speed....


Scott Wilhelm wrote:

@ Darksol and mplindustries:

So, I have to admit, when I read the description of the Klar as being “a small shield with Armor Spikes,” I dismissed it, because it made no sense, and I thought if Paizo really meant that, they were being stupid.

I always saw the Klar as being a shield with an extra big spike, so it does 1d6 instead of 1d4 on a Bash, gives 1 point of AC protection, and counts as a one handed weapon when used to Bash.

But you both are bringing up this literal interpretation of the rules, and I feel forced to comply, because in truth I am all about the literal interpretation of the rules.

The Klar does not have shield spikes: it has armor spikes. So that means a wielder of a Klar will do an additional 1d6 points of damage on any successful Grapple attack, and those Armor Spikes can be used as a light, piercing weapon that does 1d6. That's what armor spikes do. But when you make an Armor Spike attack with your Klar, you are not making a Shield Bash, so you keep your Shield Bonus to AC even if you don't have the Improved Shield Bash Feat. You would only lose your shield bonus to your armor class if you were making a shield bash, and that is not what you are doing here with those Armor Spikes.

Actually, the armor spikes on one's armor would be a different weapon set than the armor spikes on the Klar, so one might make a 2 weapon attack routine with each set of spikes, one with the armor spikes on the armor, the other with the armor spikes on the shield.

You can shield bash with a Klar, and its shield bash damage is 1d6 as per the Weapons Table (what the rules say). This is the Klar's shield bash damage, not the Klar's armor spike damage as you were saying before. We know this because the Klar's listing as a weapon is as a 1 handed weapon, and an Armor Spike attack is as a light weapon. So 1d6 is the Shield Bash Damage.

There is an argument you made earlier, and I didn't address it right away partly because I only wanted to address 1 argument at a time, but also because this...

The rules say that adding shield spikes increases the damage dice as if the shield was 1 size larger than its actual size (which is what translate a 1D3 to upgrade to 1D4). Bashing increases the damage dice of the shield's bash attacks as if the weapon were 2 sizes larger than its actual size (which is what translates a 1D3 to upgrade to 1D6). Whether you want them to stack or not, or how you get them to stack is irrelevant. If they are the same effect, they will not combine, end of story. The RAW is the LAW, and in any PFS game, that's what they will tell you, and they will use that same FAQ to support their ruling, and you're going to either find another way to cheese the system, or find another playstyle that you enjoy playing. Although this kicks my Ranger/Barbarian Dual Shield Dexterity Tank Damage Hybrid build in the nuts, at least I don't have to worry about getting Spiked Shields all the time to deal the big damage.

Additionally, look at how it's addressed: It says that it "counts as a light steel/wooden shield with armor spikes." By RAW, this means that you can either bash with it for 1D3 Bludgeoning damage (and lose your AC), or you can attack with it as armor spikes for 1D6 Piercing damage. One could pull some major cheese and say that you could TWF with the single Klar, but since it's not a Double weapon, nor does it have the Double property, that's far-fetched. Regardless, this ruling disregards the explanation as to why it has its own separate entry in the weapons table though, so what is up with that?

My theory? Reviewing the other half of the description says that it's "a short blade," and since (most) swords are treated as Slashing weapons, they decided to treat it as a One-handed Martial weapon instead of a Light, and they changed the damage type from Piercing to Slashing.

Although it's theoretical work, I'm certain that's the idea they had in mind when creating this item, because it's the only logical explanation I can come up with as to why it has this funky stat block that's counterintuitive to what the description actually dictates. (And since it's an age-old thing that has already been FAQ'd to oblivion and nothing has been done about it, it just turns into an "Ask your GM" situation.)


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Additionally, look at how it's addressed: It says that it "counts as a light steel/wooden shield with armor spikes." By RAW, this means that you can either bash with it for 1D3 Bludgeoning damage (and lose your AC),

You are ignoring the weapon chart

Ultimate Equipment wrote:


Light Melee Weapons Price Dmg(M) Critical Range
Spiked light shield---- +50 gp--1d4------×2------[0]

One-Handed Melee Weapons Price Dmg(M) Critical Range
Klar---------------------12gp---1d6-----×2--------------[0]
Spiked heavy shield------70gp---1d6-----×2--------------[0]

The Klar's Shield Bash Damage is 1d6 Slashing. Same as the other shields on the chart, that is the listed damage for a Shield Bash. The weapon description is important, and I am not ignoring that, but what's on the chart is RAW, too.

You are saying that 1d6 is the Armor Spike Damage: clearly not so. The rules describe Armor Spike attacks in their own place, and they are different from the Shield Bash attacks listed on the Weapons Table in Ultimate Equipment. Armor Spikes do 1d6 Piercing and are Light Weapons, the Klar does 1d6 Slashing and is a 1 handed weapon. Your assertion that a Klar's shield bash does 1d3 seems to be based on either a mistaken impression that the Klar's listing on the UE's Weapon Chart is just a repetition of Armor Spike Damage or perhaps based on the assumption that the description of the weapon lets you ignore its listing on the Weapons chart, and I don't see how that is defensible by RAW.

Meanwhile, the fact that the weapon description says it counts as a light shield with armor spikes rather than as a light, spiked shield means that it is not benefitting from some kind of spike-induced virtual size increase and therefore does get its damage increased from 1d6 to 2d6 by the Bashing Enchantment.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Additionally, look at how it's addressed: It says that it "counts as a light steel/wooden shield with armor spikes." By RAW, this means that you can either bash with it for 1D3 Bludgeoning damage (and lose your AC),

You are ignoring the weapon chart

Ultimate Equipment wrote:


Light Melee Weapons Price Dmg(M) Critical Range
Spiked light shield---- +50 gp--1d4------×2------[0]

One-Handed Melee Weapons Price Dmg(M) Critical Range
Klar---------------------12gp---1d6-----×2--------------[0]
Spiked heavy shield------70gp---1d6-----×2--------------[0]

The Klar's Shield Bash Damage is 1d6 Slashing. Same as the other shields on the chart, that is the listed damage for a Shield Bash. The weapon description is important, and I am not ignoring that, but what's on the chart is RAW, too.

You are saying that 1d6 is the Armor Spike Damage: clearly not so. The rules describe Armor Spike attacks in their own place, and they are different from the Shield Bash attacks listed on the Weapons Table in Ultimate Equipment. Armor Spikes do 1d6 Piercing and are Light Weapons, the Klar does 1d6 Slashing and is a 1 handed weapon. Your assertion that a Klar's shield bash does 1d3 seems to be based on either a mistaken impression that the Klar's listing on the UE's Weapon Chart is just a repetition of Armor Spike Damage or perhaps based on the assumption that the description of the weapon lets you ignore its listing on the Weapons chart, and I don't see how that is defensible by RAW.

Meanwhile, the fact that the weapon description says it counts as a light shield with armor spikes rather than as a light, spiked shield means that it is not benefitting from some kind of spike-induced virtual size increase and therefore does get its damage increased from 1d6 to 2d6 by the Bashing Enchantment.

You are way off the mark here. I'm not comparing Light/Heavy Shields, I said Wooden/Steel, which denotes material used. That has nothing to do with the factor that whether it's made of steel or wood, it's still a light shield. You can't make a Klar as a Heavy Shield, period.

And you're adding additional benefits to the Klar that aren't there by RAW. "Light Steel/Wooden Shield" does not translate to having Spikes just because the description mentions that Armor Spikes come with it. Last I checked, Armor Spikes apply to Armor, Shield Spikes apply to Shields, and there is no mix-matching allowed between the two. This is about as silly and out-of-place as putting Shield Spikes on Armor and saying "My Armor Spikes deal 1D8!" Even if that was the case, it's 1D4 as a Light Spiked Shield, which means at best with Bashing stacking (which it doesn't as per the FAQ), it deals 1D8, not the 2D6 you're asking for it to do.

Whatever the case, this is highly off-topic, and I can't make this any more simple than what I have. If you think you can get away with that sort of munchkinry, then play a PFS game where you pull that same exact combination, and see what happens. I'd also go ahead and go ask James Jacobs/Mark Seifter as to how a Klar is to be ran, I guarantee you they're going to say the same things I've said.


The Klar is a confusing mess, can we all agree on that?

There are lots of options about what a Klar actually does or how it works, but the one thing I can say for sure is that there is 100% no way a Bashing Klar could deal 2d6 damage.

Here the possbilities:
1) The 1d6 is the Klar's weapon damage and it can also bash for normal bashing damage
2) The 1d6 is the Klar's "bash" attack, and attacking with a Klar is exactly like attacking with a shield spike as in the ISWG
3) The 1d6 is the Klar's "bash" attack, and the ISWG was mistaken/overwritten and it does not count as a spiked shield

If #1 is true then the Bashing enchantment would alter normal light shield bashing damage, which is 1d3. Upgrading two steps makes it 1d6. Lame. If the shield also counts as spiked, well, it doesn't matter because shield spikes and bashing definitively don't stack with the new FAQ.

If #2 i true, then there is a special effect going on that lets the Klar's shield spike boost its bash damage by two steps instead of one. In this case, the Bashing enchantment wouldn't stack with the shield spikes and it would deal 1d6, just like any other light shield.

If #3 is true (and I absolutely do not believe it is, but, I'm putting it here anyway for the sake of argument), and the Bashing enchant can someone affect the 1d6 Klar damage because the Klar's bash is 1d6 and doesn't, somehow, count as being larger thanks to spikes of any kind, you still only go up to 1d10. By the new FAQ rules, when you gain sizes, if the initial damage is 1d6 or less, you only increase damage by a single die size each increase, rather than two. So, 1d6 -> 1d8 -> 1d10.

In the end, this thread is not about using the Klar, it's about dual wielding, and I still say that the very best way to dual wield is with a double weapon, no question.


People are messing up the die size increase. bashing goes up two sized. so that is three steps up the list since it start at 1d6 so 1d6 -> 1d8, and then you apply the second increase which does the full bonus since it's bigger than 1d6 so 1d8 -> 2d6


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
You can't make a Klar as a Heavy Shield, period.

I am doing no such thing. My arguments have nothing to do with whether a Klar is heavy or light.

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
you're adding additional benefits to the Klar that aren't there by RAW.

I am doing no such thing. Every benefit I am backing I am backing with RAW.

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
"Light Steel/Wooden Shield" does not translate to having Spikes

No, but but having armor spikes does mean that it has armor spikes.

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
does not translate to having Spikes just because the description mentions that Armor Spikes come with it.

Yes, it does! When the description of the thing says it has the thing, then it has the thing! What do you think the rules are for?! The rules say Klars have Armor Spikes, so they do!

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Last I checked, Armor Spikes apply to Armor, Shield Spikes apply to Shields, and there is no mix-matching allowed between the two. This is about as silly and out-of-place as putting Shield Spikes on Armor and saying "My Armor Spikes deal 1D8!"

I agree with you here! It sure is silly, but it is what the rules say. This is some stupid, stinky, RAW cheese. I said as much before.

I wrote:
In other words, I think this interpretation is stupid.

But you are the one who cut the cheese first when you argued by RAW putting spikes on a shield effectively increased the size of the shield, and so the Bashing Enchantment is less effective on spiked shields and Klars. Then you did it again by quoting the description of the Klar as being "a light shield with armor spikes," trying to argue that the shield bashing damage of the Klar as listed on the weapons chart is somehow invalid even though it is in the very same book you are getting your evidence from.

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
there's no reneging out of it.
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
I'd also go ahead and go ask James Jacobs/Mark Seifter as to how a Klar is to be ran, I guarantee you they're going to say the same things I've said.

I think that asking for an FAQ, erratum, or Official Rules Post is an excellent idea.

Saying that adding spikes to a shield makes the shield bigger and won't stack with the Bashing Enchantment is asinine, but defensible by RAW, and an official rules post is called for.

Saying that a Klar is a shield with spikes but is not a spiked shield is asinine, but it is defensible by RAW, and an official rules post is called for.

I wrote:
it has armor spikes. So that means... those Armor Spikes can be used as a light, piercing weapon that does 1d6. That's what armor spikes do. But when you make an Armor Spike attack with your Klar, you are not making a Shield Bash, so you keep your Shield Bonus to AC even if you don't have the Improved Shield Bash Feat. You would only lose your shield bonus to your armor class if you were making a shield bash, and that is not what you are doing here with those Armor Spikes.

Saying that you can use the spikes on your one-handed shield to make light weapon armor spike attacks and keep your shield bonus to AC is asinine, but defensible by RAW.

You might recall you advanced this same argument.

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
By RAW, this means that you can either bash with it for 1D3 Bludgeoning damage (and lose your AC), or you can attack with it as armor spikes for 1D6 Piercing damage. One could pull some major cheese and say that you could TWF with the single Klar,

I might be

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
way off the mark here

, but in your last post, you have misattributed an argument to me, called me a munchkin, and threatened to call the cops (Mark Seifter and Jame Jacobs) on me. This tells me you are out of real arguments to make, and are sliding toward strawmanning, ad hominem, and accusations of cheating.

I don't think you've done those things yet: I just want to give the argument a chance to stay civil.

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Whatever the case, this is highly off-topic,

Then stop trying to discredit my excellent advice about how to configure a 2 weapon melee character with RAW arguments that don't stand up to RAW.


Chess Pwn wrote:
People are messing up the die size increase. bashing goes up two sized. so that is three steps up the list since it start at 1d6 so 1d6 -> 1d8, and then you apply the second increase which does the full bonus since it's bigger than 1d6 so 1d8 -> 2d6

If that's the case, they're probably going to need to add another FAQ explaining the previous one.


mplindustries wrote:
I can say for sure is that there is 100% no way a Bashing Klar could deal 2d6 damage.

I take issue with your saying there is no way for a Bashing Klar to deal 2d6 damage.

I have indeed spelled out many ways that a Bashing Klar does deal 2d6 damage. It's one thing to dislike my arguments, even hate them, but you sort of sound like you are pretending my arguments don't even exist. You can't be serious. It would be quite offensive if you were serious.

mplindustries wrote:
In the end, this thread is not about using the Klar, it's about dual wielding,

Fair to say. It was not my intention to make this a thread about the Klar, only to offer Thunder and Fang as an awesome way to make a 2wf build. For my part, I am only defending my advice from attackers, and some of these attacks are bordering on the personal.

mplindustries wrote:
I still say that the very best way to dual wield is with a double weapon, no question.

That sounds like something that someone who is "for sure... 100% no way" ever wrong would say.

I would say that there are lots of ways to go 2 weapon that all have a variety of advantages and awesome effects, and many people have many good reasons for taking any of them. Darksol's advice for 2 Bastard Swords is the most like what the OP was looking for, 2 Greatswords. Darksol would be sacrificing a little damage/attack for a much higher attack roll. My advice of Thunder and Fang offers greater damage, higher AC, a segue into a Bull Rush/Shield Bash Build, and can be taken up at lower levels, but it is very expensive in terms of feats, depends for effectiveness on special enchantments, and anyway the OP is already staring at like level 12. For your part, there are a lot of really cool double weapons. Dire Flails and Hooked Hammers come to mind. The Urgosh is interesting. There were 2 in 3.5 that I always admired: the Gythka and the Gyrspike. But how about that Meteor Hammer? Super cool!

But maybe not quite as cool as a tripping, 2 weapon build where you use a Warhammer and a Sickle for your Trip Weapon. It's not optimized, but you're using a Hammer and a Sickle. You're the Soviet Union!


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
mplindustries wrote:
I can say for sure is that there is 100% no way a Bashing Klar could deal 2d6 damage.

I take issue with your saying there is no way for a Bashing Klar to deal 2d6 damage.

I have indeed spelled out many ways that a Bashing Klar does deal 2d6 damage. It's one thing to dislike my arguments, even hate them, but you sort of sound like you are pretending my arguments don't even exist. You can't be serious. It would be quite offensive if you were serious.

Your argument was one I directly addressed with possibility #3. I suggested that even if shield spikes and bashing stacked (they don't, but even if they did) or if the Klar's base slam was somehow 1d6 (it's not, but again, if it was), it still wouldn't go to 2d6 because the original damage was 1d6. Someone else disagrees with that and that's fine, but I did address the possibility.

Your argument seems to be, "it should be this way, so it is!" I really can't follow how you could possibly justify 1d6 being the base slam.

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
I would say that there are lots of ways to go 2 weapon that all have a variety of advantages and awesome effects, and many people have many good reasons for taking any of them. Darksol's advice for 2 Bastard Swords is the most like what the OP was looking for, 2 Greatswords.

Two Greatswords would deal 2d6 at a total -6 to hit. Two Bastard Swords would deal 1d10 at a total -4.

Using a large Double Sword, however would be 2d6 at -4, and allow you to use it two-handed any time you're attacking without making a full attack.

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Darksol would be sacrificing a little damage/attack for a much higher attack roll.

An oversized Double sword sacrifices no damage and has the same penalties.

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
My advice of Thunder and Fang offers greater damage, higher AC, a segue into a Bull Rush/Shield Bash Build, and can be taken up at lower levels, but it is very expensive in terms of feats, depends for effectiveness on special enchantments, and anyway the OP is already staring at like level 12.

And carries rule ambiguities that will cause you nothing but trouble. For example, I would never allow Klars to use the Shield Slam feat, since as far as I could tell, you're not shield bashing with a Klar at all.

And yeah, it eats tons of feats.

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

For your part, there are a lot of really cool double weapons. Dire Flails and Hooked Hammers come to mind. The Urgosh is interesting. There were 2 in 3.5 that I always admired: the Gythka and the Gyrspike. But how about that Meteor Hammer? Super cool!

Coolness is kind of irrelevant to me. Hook Hammers and Dire flails strike me as ridiculous. I basically assumed you'd be using a Double Sword or Double Axe (which are both also silly, but less so).

Double Weapons are objectively better because you get the benefits of dual wielding when you want them and the benefits of a two-handed weapon when you want those instead.

Dark Archive

A double weapon is a 2H weapon. There's no way to use an over-sized one without a dip in the Fighter archetype or having Powerful Build or something to that effect.


mplindustries wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
People are messing up the die size increase. bashing goes up two sized. so that is three steps up the list since it start at 1d6 so 1d6 -> 1d8, and then you apply the second increase which does the full bonus since it's bigger than 1d6 so 1d8 -> 2d6
If that's the case, they're probably going to need to add another FAQ explaining the previous one.

Here Mark says that yes, this is how it works. Each size increase is applied separately, thus if the first increase takes it above 1d6 then the next one goes up 2 steps instead of 1.

Grand Lodge

Kukuris Yo...cause Crit fishing is a Career path!


Seranov wrote:
A double weapon is a 2H weapon. There's no way to use an over-sized one without a dip in the Fighter archetype or having Powerful Build or something to that effect.

Yeah, that was the point. Use the Titan Fighter Archetype (the very same one that would allow dual wielding Greatswords).


Yes, they do have to deal with the item type, because it makes a difference. Light/Heavy determines damage dice, because Light shields are (mathematically speaking) 1 size difference from Heavies. Spiked Heavy Shields equal the Klar entry's damage, which cannot be the case because Klars aren't Heavy Shields (which are a base of 1D4 without spikes), and Spiked Shields are automatically Piercing damage. Even Armor Spikes are Piercing. So why the @*$& is the Klar entry Slashing damage if it's supposed to function as either a Spiked Light Shield or Armor Spikes?!

I can sit there and say a Wizard has the Spells class feature, but that doesn't mean he automatically casts 9th level spells, which is what you're essentially proposing. He needs to have the Character Levels, Intelligence, and Caster Levels to back it up, and you're not providing the proper numbers (or source of said numbers) that equal the sum needed. To be more accurate to the situation here, you're trying to stack Intelligence Headbands to get the 19 Intelligence needed to cast 9th level spells.

So you agree it's cheese. If it's cheese, chances are, it's not intended. And if it's not intended, then it should not be happening at all. Which means your argument becomes invalid and therefore loses. I'm glad you essentially conceded right there.

mplindustries gave an official Paizo FAQ about damage dice and size/effective size scaling, and that FAQ (, which was written up by the Devs themselves,) says you can't stack size bonuses or effective size bonuses with themselves, regardless of where the source of these things come from. You're the one sitting there saying the FAQ is a bunch of bull$#!^, even though it's an official Paizo rules source (and is used to clarify rules that are unclear, whereas Errata change rules entirely).

Lastly, you're taking my stance way out of proportion. I'm not "calling the cops" on you (makes no sense, you don't get in trouble for asking the Devs a question), strawmanning, or anything of that sort. I'm proposing a challenge for you to hold up: If your interpretation was in fact correct, and that Klars do 1D6 unaltered Shield Bashes, then let's see it in PFS action. Let's pitch that idea at the Devs in their respective "Ask me" threads, and see if that's what they really intended for the Klar to do. You said it yourself you want something official (which you decided to ignore an official Paizo FAQ, and that's as official as it gets), so put it out on the field and see how it goes, because if PFS vetoes it, you can be sure that the Paizo Devs agree with it, and there you have it, conclusive proof as to how it's supposed to be ran.

Spoiler Alert: PFS (which is a strict interpretation of RAW/RAI directly from the Devs themselves), and by extrapolation, the Devs, would say the Klar works differently from your interpretation.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Spoiler Alert: PFS (which is a strict interpretation of RAW/RAI directly from the Devs themselves), and by extrapolation, the Devs, would say the Klar works differently from your interpretation.

Was this a link? It doesn't seem to go anywhere.


mplindustries wrote:
Your argument seems to be, "it should be this way, so it is!"

Admittedly, there has been a bit of it-should-be-this-way in my argument, but I'm not relying on that. Everything about what I say about how the Klar performs is backed by RAW.

mplindustries wrote:
I really can't follow how you could possibly justify 1d6 being the base slam.

You can argue against it, and indeed you have. I will address and defeat those arguments again in a following post.

This is the second time you have made a comment that suggests you are completely dismissive of my position, and it is starting to make me think that you are impervious to facts and evidence.

Still giving you the benefit of the doubt--that you earnestly would like to understand my perspective and that saying you "can't follow" my position is not just another expression of disrespect, I will outline my position.

Here it is: 2d6, justified.

The Klar is on the list with the other shields under the heading "Shields," so it's a shield.

An Attack with a shield is called a Shield Bash, so an attack with a Klar is a Shield Bash.

The listed damage for that Klar shield bash is 1d6.

The Bashing Enchantment increases the Shield bash damage of the Klar by 2 size catagories, 1 size bump increases it from 1d6 to 1d8, the other from 1d8 to 2d6.

Can you follow that?


mplindustries wrote:
carries rule ambiguities that will cause you nothing but trouble. For example, I would never allow Klars to use the Shield Slam feat, since as far as I could tell, you're not shield bashing with a Klar at all.

Not really, what I'm saying is pretty cut-and-dried, and your counter-arguments have been withering away under the light of casual scrutiny. Don't get me wrong: I've been learning things by arguing with you and Darksol, but I have clearly demonstrated that the Klar performs exactly the way I said it does even in the face of your spirited arguments. My advice is perfectly square with the RAW, and no PFS player should have trouble bringing a character based on this idea to any PFS table.

You've said that a Klar is not a shield, but Ultimate Equipment lists it on the list with other shields, and the description of the weapon clearly states that it is a shield.

You've said that the Klar is a Spiked Shield, and the extra damage of a spiked shield is due to an effective size increase, which will not stack with the effective size increases granted by the Bashing Enchantment. Admittedly, I do have a big problem with that interpretation of Shield Spikes, which you could criticize as a way-it-should-be argument, but that doesn't even matter for the Klar.

That's because the Klar is not a spiked shield. The description of the Klar in Ultimate Equipment is that it counts as “a light shield with armor spikes.” That makes it not a spiked shield by RAW. Shield Spikes are a specific thing. Armor Spikes are a specific thing. Armor Spikes are a different specific thing from Shield Spikes. And that means that a Klar is a different specific thing from a spiked shield.

Now it's your turn to say "it should be this way, so it is!" And I would be sympathetic to that. But the RAW, however unusually-worded, is not ambiguous at all. It doesn't say it's “a light, spiked shield.” It doesn't say it's “a light shield with spikes.” It says it's a “light shield with armor spikes, and that makes it specifically not a spiked shield, so that 1d6 is NOT the result of some spiked-induced virtual size increase. And that means that that Shield Bash Damage does indeed go up 2 sizes from 1d6.

You claim that that 2 size increase only raises to 1d10. Even if you are right, that leaves the Bashing-enchanted Klar still quite formidable, but my understanding of the weapon size increase rules, reinforced by reviewing your link to the FAQ, and supported by the opinions of Chess Pwn and Mark Seifter the developer--thank you for that link, Chess Pwn--is that a 2-step damage increase from 1d6 brings the damage up to 2d6.

It has been said that since the Klar counts as a light shield, its shield bash damage is 1d3 bludgeoning, but that flatly contradicts its listing on the weapons table. If it does count as a shield, and UE says that it does, then its shield bash damage is given on the Weapons Table. That is where you put the Shield Bash Damage of Shields. You need to provide explicit and compelling evidence to demonstrate that only the Klar among all other shields does not have its Shield Bash Damage listed on the weapons table. And so far, you haven't.

Let's follow this argument from a Klar "counts as a light shield."

Core Rulebook wrote:
Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a light shield. See “shield, light” on Table: Weapons for the damage dealt by a shield bash.

So the Klar counts as a Light Shield. The rules for Light Shields say to look at the Table for the Shield Bash Damage. See "Klar" on Table: Weapons for the damage dealt by a Klar bash. Spoiler Alert: it does 1d6.

It has been said that the 1d6 damage given for the Klar is really for those Armor Spikes, but that is clearly false. Armor Spikes are their own weapon, and attacks made with Armor Spikes are described in their own place. And a quick look at the description of Armor Spikes compared with the Klar clearly shows the difference. They are both martial weapons that do 1d6, but Armor Spikes are light, piercing weapons, and a Klar is a one-handed slashing weapon. The Klar's normal attack is clearly something different from an Armor Spike Attack: a shield bash.

Sovereign Court

I agree with Scott Wilhelm's interpretation. Therefore a spiked bashing klar would go from 2d6 to the next one (3d6 or 3d8; can't remember)

I don't have a problem accepting that it's better at bashing. Look at its shape compared to a regular shield. Mind you it counts as a one handed bash not light bash so you need something else to lessen the -4 penalty.

Any ideas how? I wanna make this....


Adding shield spikes to your Bashing Klar to raise your damage further is not clearly defensible by RAW. I like it, and I think you should be able to do it, but I can't recommend it. To get up to more size damage, you need to grow bigger for real, like with Enlarge Person or Righteous Might.

If you take the Thunder and Fang Feat, the Klar will count as a Light Weapon, and the Earthbreaker Hammer will count as a 1 handed weapon, and your penalties will be back down to -2/-2.

Human: I will call mine Maxwell MacKenzie
1Fighter1: weapon focus Earthbreaker and Klar, 2 Weapon.
2F2: Thunder and Fang

Boom. His Earthbreaker will be Alchemal Silver. There is a Beatles song called "Maxwell's Silver Hammer."

3F2Ranger1: Freebooter, Power Attack
4F2R2: Shield Slam

Whenever you Shield Bash someone, you get a free Bull Rush. Since Shield Slam is a Ranger Bonus Feat, you don't need to take Improved Shield Bash first, and with Thunder and Fang, you don't lose your Shield bonus to AC when you Bash with the Klar.

5F2R2Inquisitor1: Improved Bull Rush

Now he will be called Father Maxwell MacKenzie. There is another Beatles song called Father MacKenzie.

6F2R2I2
7F2R2I3: Greater Bull Rush, Paired Opportunist, Solo Tactics

With Greater Bull Rush, whenever you Shield Bash-Bull Rush someone, all your allies that also threaten him will get Attacks of Opportunity. With Paired Opportunist, you will get the Attack of Opportunity, too. Normally, all your allies also have to take the same Teamwork Feat like Paired Opportunist for you enjoy it, but the Inquisitor Ability Solo Tactics gets around that.

8F2R2I4
9F2R2I5: Bane, Combat Reflexes

The AoO party can go on and on! All your allies get the AoO. You get the AoO, too. Your Attack of Opportunity is another Shield Bash, followed by another Great Bull Rush, then you get another Attack of Opportunity! Another Shield Bash...

It requires some forethought in battlefield positioning and queuing if not all your allies have Combat Reflexes, too, but check out the hotness!


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
mplindustries wrote:
Your argument seems to be, "it should be this way, so it is!"

Admittedly, there has been a bit of it-should-be-this-way in my argument, but I'm not relying on that. Everything about what I say about how the Klar performs is backed by RAW.

mplindustries wrote:
I really can't follow how you could possibly justify 1d6 being the base slam.

You can argue against it, and indeed you have. I will address and defeat those arguments again in a following post.

This is the second time you have made a comment that suggests you are completely dismissive of my position, and it is starting to make me think that you are impervious to facts and evidence.

Still giving you the benefit of the doubt--that you earnestly would like to understand my perspective and that saying you "can't follow" my position is not just another expression of disrespect, I will outline my position.

Here it is: 2d6, justified.

The Klar is on the list with the other shields under the heading "Shields," so it's a shield.

An Attack with a shield is called a Shield Bash, so an attack with a Klar is a Shield Bash.

The listed damage for that Klar shield bash is 1d6.

The Bashing Enchantment increases the Shield bash damage of the Klar by 2 size catagories, 1 size bump increases it from 1d6 to 1d8, the other from 1d8 to 2d6.

Can you follow that?

If a Klar's damage entry is supposed to be a Spiked Shield Bash, it's supposed to deal Piercing Damage, because every sort of spike in the game, whether it's Armor Spikes, Shield Spikes, or Trap Spikes, deal Piercing Damage. The Klar should be no exception to that rule, and yet it's listed as Slashing. By this logic, I could create a Spiked Pit trap with Legos and have the trap deal Bludgeoning Damage instead, but I'm sure you and I know that is ridiculous on multiple levels.

But again, if it's supposed to be a Spiked Shield Bash from a Light Spiked Shield, as the item description says, the damage dice scale follows incorrectly, especially when a Light Spiked Shield is already listed at 1D4. It also contradicts the factor that if it were to be a Shield Bash, from a Light Spiked Shield, that the Klar entry would be listed as a Light Weapon, not a One-Handed Weapon.

So when we take your interpretation, these two factors aren't resolved, and it results in either the item description being incorrect or the weapon entry being incorrect. Since you seem to be the expert on this, I'm sure you can point out which that is.

For the record, according to the books, this is what a traditional Klar looks like.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
a Klar's damage entry is supposed to be a Spiked Shield Bash, it's supposed to deal Piercing Damage... The Klar should be no exception to that rule... the damage dice scale follows incorrectly,

Citation, please.


Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

I agree with Scott Wilhelm's interpretation. Therefore a spiked bashing klar would go from 2d6 to the next one (3d6 or 3d8; can't remember)

I don't have a problem accepting that it's better at bashing. Look at its shape compared to a regular shield. Mind you it counts as a one handed bash not light bash so you need something else to lessen the -4 penalty.

Any ideas how? I wanna make this....

Another way you could go with this is with the Phalanx Soldier Fighter Archetype. At level 3 Fighter, Phalanx Soldiers can wield pole arm and shield, treating the pole arm as a 1 handed weapon. You wouldn't usually be 2 weapon fighting per se. You would be attacking with Reach, and if anyone got inside the reach of your Lucerne Hammer or Horsechopper, you could use your Klar to Shield Slam them back into the range of your Hammer. You could also use Great Cleave with your Klar and/or pole arm, smashing and skewering everyone within 10'.

At level 5 Fighter, Phalanx Soldiers can ready a Brace weapon as an Immediate Action. Combined maybe with something like the Antagonize Feat or a Bard who is good with the insults, Double Damage can be the new word of the day...


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
a Klar's damage entry is supposed to be a Spiked Shield Bash, it's supposed to deal Piercing Damage... The Klar should be no exception to that rule... the damage dice scale follows incorrectly,
Citation, please.

We already gave you an official citation for something previously, and you disregarded it and essentially said that it's bull$#!^. If I gave you another one, you'd do the same thing, and this would circle ad nauseum, because it's not the way you want it to be. To that end, the effort needed to fulfill your request would be in vain, meaning the request itself becomes futile.

Sovereign Court

I'd like to see this official citation please. I promise I won't say it's BS if it's official. Thanks. (no sarcasm here; I'm really considering a build with this)

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Um, look up the rules for armor spikes.

Changes the damage to piercing, and one size increase.

Effectively, a spiked shield is a different animal then a shield, and the 'no-stacking' size increase rules should not apply. It's akin to not letting a battle axe get a virtual size increase because it's a size up from a hand axe.

A spiked shield and a shield are actually two different weapons, and so the stacking rules shouldn't apply. That might not be 'official', of course.

THAT SAID...a Klar does 1d6 slashing. That's not light spiked shield damage, which is d4.

Since Bashing only works on a shield bash (and a Klar using the d6 blade is not a shield bash), the Bashing enhancement will do NOTHING for the d6 weapon. It'll enhance the spiked shield and a true shield bash to d8 as appropriate, I believe.

It will have no effect on the d6 slashing blade whatsoever.

A klar is basically a d6 slashing weapon stuck onto a d4 spiked light shield. Using the slashing weapon is not a shield bash. You can shield bash with the Klar, in which case you do d4 piercing.

==Aelryinth


Aelryinth wrote:

Um, look up the rules for armor spikes.

Changes the damage to piercing, and one size increase.

Um, no it doesn't. You made that up. These are the rules for armor spikes.

Armor Spikes wrote:
Armor spikes deal extra piercing damage (see “spiked armor” on Table: Weapons) on a successful grapple attack. The spikes count as a martial weapon. If you are not proficient with them, you take a –4 penalty on grapple checks when you try to use them. You can also make a regular melee attack (or off-hand attack) with the spikes, and they count as a light weapon in this case. (You can't also make an attack with armor spikes if you have already made an attack with another off-hand weapon, and vice versa.) An enhancement bonus to a suit of armor does not improve the spikes' effectiveness, but the spikes can be made into magic weapons in their own right.

There's nothing about changing damage or size in the description of Armor Spikes.

Do your homework next time.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
We already gave you an official citation for something previously, and you disregarded it and essentially said that it's bull$#!^.

You've got it backwards. I'm the one who's brought the more evidence. You are the one who's been trying to dismiss it as BS.

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
The Klar should be no exception to that rule, and yet it's listed as Slashing. By this logic, I could create a Spiked Pit trap with Legos and have the trap deal Bludgeoning Damage instead, but I'm sure you and I know that is ridiculous on multiple levels.

Do you know what that is there? That's you arguing with no rules-based evidence at all, trying to dismiss what I said as BS-cheese.

I've been sympathetic. And while I have used the that's-BS argument, I haven't been relying on it, because I was always well-aware of your ability to answer with

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
The RAW is the LAW, and in any PFS game, that's what they will tell you, and they will use that same FAQ to support their ruling,

You've lost the moral authority to dismiss my arguments as cheese.

I've seen your evidence and weighed it, and I've used your evidence for arguments of my own. I haven't disregarded your arguments. What I've done is crushed them under a mountain of my own evidence.

You're being the one who's been trying to ignore the arguments and dismiss them as "bul$#!^."

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
So you agree it's cheese. If it's cheese, chances are, it's not intended. And if it's not intended, then it should not be happening at all.

But you can't. Do you know why?

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
The RAW is the LAW, and in any PFS game, that's what they will tell you, and they will use that same FAQ to support their ruling,

You've lost the moral authority to dismiss my arguments as cheese.

So far as we have been able to get Mark's opinion, he has backed my position, but honestly, getting his opinion isn't good enough. We would need something official to change the rules, because the rules are clear, and unless he is officially changing the rules, he's just bringing another opinion.

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
The RAW is the LAW, and in any PFS game, that's what they will tell you, and they will use that same FAQ to support their ruling,

That applies to the developers as well. They have to follow the rules just like everybody else. The difference is that they can rewrite the rules.

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
and this would circle ad nauseum, because it's not the way you want it to be. To that end, the effort needed to fulfill your request would be in vain, meaning the request itself becomes futile.

You're right about that. As long as I keep being right and proving it, you will get nowhere until you find some other rule, official rules post, FAQ, or erratum that backs your point further. Or until you do what you said you would do and try to get the developers to change the rules.

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