greeting fellow players and dms alike, I am currently playing in a mummies mask game and one of the players is playing an oracle with the dual cursed archtype the issue I need advice on is how the misfortune class ability works because our issue is he can use it on everyone allies and enemies and because of the reading of it is forcing the dm who normaly hides his roles to reveal all his roles so the player can decide if hes gonna misfortune it or not and since the class feature it doesnt say a limit on how many times it can be used.
HELP?
First off, the word you are looking for is "rolls".
As for the question, the player is using Misfortune properly (as long as he is using it on an individual creature only once per day) and there is no issue other than the GM not liking it. If the GM would prefer, he can keep his rolls hidden and allow the player to use Misfortune after he declares a success or failure. Assuming the player is capable of basic arithmetic this won't cause any difference in the potency and is generally a good house rule to go by just to help keep the game flowing.
Sounds like the Dual-Cursed Oracle's Misfortune Revelation is being used Rules As Written. It is indeed very powerful, and in most situations more powerful than the Misfortune Witch Hex that has the same name but is unrelated.
One house rule that I saw in a PbP was to change the Revelation to work the same way as the Witch Hex. The purpose of this was to avoid the need for back-and-forth to allow it to work in the PbP (the Misfortune Revelation is activated as an Immediate action, whereas the Misfortune Witch Hex isn't, and is far more automated), although I've also seen a different PbP that used the Misfortune Revelation Rules As Written without too much trouble (although It contributed to making the PbP thread a bit weird to read, although it was pretty awesome overall).
thank you idk why i was dumb and misspelling rolls der also that seems insanely over powered we will probably home rule a nerf for our game
It is very powerful, yes. At least it isn't Slumber.
Iz is an useful ability, but limited (to one manipulation per victim). Since we all roll in the open, things move along at the same speed as usual.
The thing about it is that changing a single roll can be a life-saver, but it might not. It is also an immediate action, so limited to one target per round. This in turn means that the ability is the better, the less enemies are around, best would be one BBEG.
On the other hand, when you get swarmed by eight fighters (or insert mob of your preference) about your own level (give or take a few between them), it is irrelevant.
I am the DM in the original posters game.
I find the ability way OP for the balancing cost it supposedly has. Especially at 1st level.
At 1st level, an Oracle only needs to affect ONE creature ONE time for it to nerf that enemy with the action economy of other party members wailing away on it/them as well. Unless the enemy is EXTREMELY lucky. And with the scaling of party action DPR, it will only get worse as the levels go up.
But let that slide for now. Let's talk about BALANCE. For every benefit, there should be a corresponding cost that balances in proportion, right? So the Oracle has to take an extra curse, right?
Legalistic.
So if I want there to be an actual "price" for having the benefit of forcing a reroll at-will on every enemy one time a day, I now must work into the AP a reason for him to take or volunteer an "oath" that he must follow.
Because if I do not work in a "price" for this ability, then he gets that ability scot-free, he will not have paid a corresponding disadvantage or "price" for it at all.
(I knew there was a reason why I said, "no Oracles" in our other game...)
I am going to have one ruling that goes against RAW on this -- cannot be used on Skill checks. Those are the only rolls I make that for gameflow and flavor I want to keep hidden to prevent metagaming.
Example: I roll Perception for the PC's trying to detect traps, because a failed roll would be perceived as success until the trap is sprung. If that roll is in the open, they know they failed and may decide to take a different action they would not have normally done. Or Appraise. They do not know if their appraisal of that gem for 75gp is correct or not until they try to sell. For other skills like Climb, they would know (and it would be obvious) when they fail, so they roll that check.
I really do not think anyone would ever "waste" this ability on a skill checks anyways....
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He's an oracle. He could never touch misfortune or even the entire dual-cursed archetype and he'd still be ridiculously powerful.
The fact is that he is contributing to the party (good!) in a way that doesn't make anybody else feel useless (better!) and that's not a problem. If you don't want to let him use the ability exactly how it's supposed to work, that's your prerogative, but he's not really doing anything wrong.
Never said "wrong."
At this point, I am allowing it (basically) RAW.
Just going to need to do some DM-fu to balance it with an oath, that's all.
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For my oracle with misfortune, I just tell the GM in advance, "I save Misfortune for the natural '1' my party member rolls each day. If they roll less than a 10 on a Will or Fort save, I will likewise use misfortune. Finally, any time you would say 'critical threat' I will use Misfortune against the enemy in question." That way, my GM can do all the hidden rolls they like, and just let me know when I have burned off my Misfortune on any given target.
It also helps game flow as 75% of all my Misfortune rolls are auto-consumed by my GM.
Edit: Also, the true cost of misfortune comes with the class abilities Dual Cursed replaces, along with the revelation cost itself.
Example: Heavens Oracle cannot take both Awesome Display and Misfortune at level 1, without burning a feat, AND the Dual Cursed Oracle takes away the level 2 bonus spell (Color Spray) AND the Dual Cursed archetype takes away the class skills specific to the revelation.
The second curse is just de-icing on the cake.
^This is actually a really good suggestion for streamlining use of Misfortune, especially for PbP. Favorited.
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Legalistic is a cheesy curse. In our games we have agreed not to use it.
Never said "wrong."
At this point, I am allowing it (basically) RAW.
Just going to need to do some DM-fu to balance it with an oath, that's all.
Misfortune (Ex): At 1st level, as an immediate action, you can force a creature within 30 feet to reroll any one d20 roll that it has just made before the results of the roll are revealed. The creature must take the result of the reroll, even if it’s worse than the original roll. Once a creature has suffered from your misfortune, it cannot be the target of this revelation again for 1 day.
I just wanted to mention since it hasn't been said yet.
Keep in mind using this is an Immediate Action on top of only being able to be used once per target that day.
Plus the second curse (which never gets better than the start).
Side Note: Even with using Legalistic as the second curse isn't easy. The curse says;
Whenever you break your word (either purposefully or unintentionally), you become sickened for 24 hours or until you meet your obligation, whichever comes first.
So no "oath" or anything for the bad to kick in.
If the Oracle in question says they will do something they have to or else become Sickened (which sucks).
The vow (what you are calling an oath) is only to the oracle himself to aid him in completing what he promised to do.
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an understanding of what my players want to bring to the table before it is brought to the table
that sounds like crazy talk
A wild necromancer appears!
So, one of the biggest problems, in my opinion, with the Dual Cursed Archetype is that there are too many curses now that, even without advancing at all, are too easy to circumvent the penalties (Legalistic, Tongues [especially if you are using background skills]) or they are more of a benefit than a curse right from level 1 (Im looking at you Deep One).
As others have stated, you do lose all the bonus class skills, which can hurt, as the oracle class skill list was balanced around having extra skills from your Mystery. You also are forced to replace your first 3 bonus spells (given they are 2 good and one mediocre spells), which depending on your Mystery can be good or bad (For Time for example, the first 3 spells are easily the worst on the bonus spell list, but then again time loses out on 4 amazing class skills).
But yes, things like Misfortune + Ill Omen + Bestow Curse can just wreck boss type encounters. That feels really bad when you get to a boss and you have a Time Oracle that always acts in the surprise round, gets to roll 3x for initiative and take the best, then opens with Quickened Piercing Ill Omen, Reach Greater Bestow Curse (which the boss has to save 3x against) and can reroll either of his rolls to overcome SR (and of course he is using Dweomer Essence as part of both spells and probably has at least Spell Penetration). Now your boss is sitting there with a -8 to basically everything, and is easy fodder for the rest of the party or the Oracle to Save or Lose him next turn.
That's why I like the idea of using Dual Cursed not with weak curses, but with nasty ones, and in order to fuel Oracle's Curse. Covetous + Burned Hands bestows -6 to attack rolls, and -2 on most other rolls for a second level spell.
Isn't Legalistic intended for tieflings ?
Then play an Elder Mythos Cultist...
Never said "wrong."
At this point, I am allowing it (basically) RAW.
Just going to need to do some DM-fu to balance it with an oath, that's all.
Why don't you just tell him to take a different curse that's not Legalistic? If you tell him straight up that you don't want to have to deal with the extra work that Legalistic places upon you, then just ask him nicely to take another curse.
Of course, stuff like Tongues or Haunted aren't particularly harrowing curses, but at the very least you don't have to do any extra work on your part.
Isn't Legalistic intended for tieflings ?
"Though these features are particularly suitable for tieflings, GMs can permit characters of other races with appropriate backstories or worldviews to gain them as well." It's designed with Tieflings in mind, but it isn't a hard constraint.
I'll be frank, my dual cursed oracle just doesn't use that stuff. It also states "before the results of the roll are revealed" so, frankly, you can just tell him "decide if he's going to use it" without revealing the roll, if it's one you usually roll in private. (I took dual cursed for fluff, not for the other stuff.)
I think it means before the in-character outcome is revealed. If an 11 fail or not isn't something you get to know, but it doesn't mean you have to blindly guess at a roll you hadn't seen. Although the dual-cursed oracle getting to see it isn't the same as the whole party, maybe not even getting to know what the roll is for. But the default is that you get to see almost all the rolls, hiding is forlack of a better word a house rule.