ACG Classes and Racial Spells


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I've notice that some ACG classes have racial spells listed on their customer spell lists.

For instance, Shamans have Stone Shield listed as a 1st level spell.

Do I have to be an Oread Shaman to cast this spell, or can my Dwarven Stone Spirit Shaman cast it?

Another question.
If I'm a class that casts spells from a spellbook, can I let other spellbook casters scribe/cast racial spells from my book?

Shadow Lodge

To answer your first question, if the ACG does not contain the actual spell, you must use the ARG as the source for the spell, meaning you must still abide by any restrictions set by the Additional Resources document in regards to that book.

To the second, they can copy the spell from your spellbook if and only if that spell is a legal choice for them. If they aren't of the appropriate race, that means no, unless they have a boon that says otherwise.

Liberty's Edge 2/5

Could you clarify your answer to the first question, James? If the ACG is explicitly granting a spell that was previously restricted to a race, why would the previous restriction still apply to the new class?

ARG says "Oreads have access to the following spells" and Stone Shield is on the list.

ACG says "Shamans gain access to the following spells" and Stone Shield is on the list.

In fact, the Additional Resources page says "Oread: all ... spells are legal to play." AR doesn't specifically restrict Oread spell to Oreads, the ARG does. ACG grants access to specific classes (e.g. Bloodrager and Shaman get Stone Shield).

Does this make sense, or am I missing the point?

Grand Lodge 4/5

Ron,

The clarification is whether the spell is printed in the ACG, or just the ARG, with a reference to it in the ACG.

If it is reprinted in the ACG, and doesn't include the racial limitation, then it is legal for anyone to use.

If it is only referenced in teh ACG, without having the actual spell printed in the ACG, then the spell still has the limitations on it from the ARG and Additional Resources.

So, first question:
Is the Spell Stone shield printed in the ACG in the page range of 162-199?
If, instead, the Shaman spell list just lists it with a note pointing the player to the ARG, the following Additional Resource restrictions come into play:

Quote:
Alternate racial traits, racial archetypes, racial evolutions, racial feats, and racial spells are only available for characters of the associated race.
Oreads wrote:
all alternate racial traits, favored class options, racial archetypes, racial equipment, feats, magic items, and spells are legal for play.

This section includes the earlier stated "and racially limited items, like spells, are limited to Oreads, only."

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

It's certainly possible to interpret those few racial spells as "being granted by another legal source", though.

Honestly, I'm not sure which answer is correct.

The safer bet, to avoid conservative GMs, would be to assume they are not allowed.

Liberty's Edge 1/5

My honest opinion is that, it is one hell of a stretch to think that those spells are allowed on classes from the ACG without being from a specific race, when they were not previously allowed without being a specific race, unless they are reprinted in the ACG in the spells section. And I am not, what I consider, a "conservative GM".

Liberty's Edge 2/5

I believe that the racial spells were added to certain lists simply to show that a particular racial spell that may have only been on the Cleric list, is also on the shaman list, for example. It wasn't meant to supersede the AR restrictions on the original source material... so, still XXX race only, but also available to XXX race shaman as well.

Grand Lodge 2/5

I thought those spells could be copied from others' spell books if they had obtained them from a legal source? So is this not the case?

4/5 Designer

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Fomsie wrote:
I believe that the racial spells were added to certain lists simply to show that a particular racial spell that may have only been on the Cleric list, is also on the shaman list, for example. It wasn't meant to supersede the AR restrictions on the original source material... so, still XXX race only, but also available to XXX race shaman as well.

Having worked on spell lists, I can say that this is why we added racial spells to class spell lists: to give that race more class options to use its spell. To see why it has to work that way, imagine that for some bizarre reason the Advanced Race Guide came out before the CRB, and it had a bunch of spells in it for various races with no classes that could cast those spells (since the CRB wasn't out yet). We'd then have needed to add those spells to spell lists like cleric and wizard when we printed the CRB, so that characters of those races could cast them at all!

Similarly, some of the new classes have mythic spells on their spell lists, but that doesn't mean they can cast them when they aren't mythic.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

Kk.

Thanks, Mark!

Paizo Employee 4/5 Developer

5 people marked this as a favorite.

I can confirm what Mark says above from a Pathfinder Society Organized Play campaign perspective. A spell such as stone shield is one a shaman could prepare, but only if the shaman meets the criteria established in the spell's source (i.e. Pathfinder RPG Advanced Race Guide) on the Additional Resources page; as a result, only an oread shaman could prepare and cast stone shield.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

Awesome.

Thanks for the clarification!

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

Oh! Wait a minute...

Is that what "Oread-related options" means?

There's a Season 6 Chronicle Sheet with language akin to that, and we were confused what it might mean.

We just figured it'd be explained eventually.

Paizo Employee 4/5 Developer

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Nefreet wrote:

Oh! Wait a minute...

Is that what "Oread-related options" means?

There's a Season 6 Chronicle Sheet with language akin to that, and we were confused what it might mean.

We just figured it'd be explained eventually.

Regarding that boon:
There are two such boons tied to different races that establish a closer connection with representatives of that group. At present they provide no mechanical benefits, but they allow me to introduce later boons that might interact with them (grow in power, open up some form of access, etc.) if a player has earned both.
Dark Archive

While I completely understand what the Devs are saying, wouldn't this logic mean that natural attack combat style ranger could not take the feats from the Bestiary that are on the bonus feat list for that combat style? Since on AR those feats are not listed as legal to take?

What exactly would qualify for "being granted by another legal source", if not a class feature that lists an ability from another book that you normally wouldn't be allowed to take?

5/5

Victor Zajic wrote:

While I completely understand what the Devs are saying, wouldn't this logic mean that natural attack combat style ranger could not take the feats from the Bestiary that are on the bonus feat list for that combat style? Since on AR those feats are not listed as legal to take?

No, because the language is completely different between the two option.

AR on Bestiary wrote:
Feats: none of the feats are legal for play for PCs, animal companions, or familiars unless specifically granted by another legal source;
AR on ARG wrote:
Note: Alternate racial traits, racial archetypes, racial evolutions, racial feats, and racial spells are only available for characters of the associated race.

So one tells you you can use something IF you are granted access by another legal source, in your example the APG and natural attack combat style for the ranger.

The other tells you you can use something IF you are a character of the associated race.

So both are granting conditional access to content, with vastly different conditions set to open the content up for use. Neither contradicts the other.

4/5

John Compton wrote:
Nefreet wrote:

Oh! Wait a minute...

Is that what "Oread-related options" means?

There's a Season 6 Chronicle Sheet with language akin to that, and we were confused what it might mean.

We just figured it'd be explained eventually.

** spoiler omitted **

I'm dying to see what options become available. I love Oreads and I can't wait to see what is available.

Shadow Lodge

Kevin has the right of it; the Additional Resources doc makes specific allowances for the base game to open up the feats as options, whereas it does NOT make any allowances for the base game to allow members of other races to have access to the racial spells in the ARG.

Remember, the PFS campaign rules are an extra layer on top of the standard PF rules, which means they have priority over the base PF rules. If they say you can't have a spell, then the base game can't overrule that unless the PFS rules say they can.

Dark Archive

Kevin Ingle wrote:
Victor Zajic wrote:

While I completely understand what the Devs are saying, wouldn't this logic mean that natural attack combat style ranger could not take the feats from the Bestiary that are on the bonus feat list for that combat style? Since on AR those feats are not listed as legal to take?

No, because the language is completely different between the two option.

AR on Bestiary wrote:
Feats: none of the feats are legal for play for PCs, animal companions, or familiars unless specifically granted by another legal source;
AR on ARG wrote:
Note: Alternate racial traits, racial archetypes, racial evolutions, racial feats, and racial spells are only available for characters of the associated race.

So one tells you you can use something IF you are granted access by another legal source, in your example the APG and natural attack combat style for the ranger.

The other tells you you can use something IF you are a character of the associated race.

So both are granting conditional access to content, with vastly different conditions set to open the content up for use. Neither contradicts the other.

Thanks Kevin. I had forgotten that it was a special rule for the bestiary and not a general rule in the guide to organized play.

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