Would you let a Player Play This?


Advice


I am running a game currently and gave my players the opportunity to play some NPCs that I had created for my campaign world. One of them I have a player that has taken a liking to it. He wanted to switch characters anyway and is currently wondering if he can just take over playing this NPC as his character. From a roleplaying perspective I have no problem with it and think it could work fairly well. I am, however, concerned about it from a mechanical (pun intended) perspective.

The character he was playing is a Gnomish Cleric whose town was overran by a necromancer and turned most of his brethren to undead. In a last ditch effort to try to save himself from impending doom he asked his god to spare his soul. To do so his god transferred his soul to the nearest receptical which was a Graven Guardian that was set to stand watch in his shrine room. So basically, this character is a 5th level Gnomish Cleric Lifespark Template applied to a Graven Guardian. He is in a party of other level 8 (or at least CR8) NPCs. In the hands of a PC, I'm not sure if the Template applied to the base Golem and given class levels is too powerful or not. I'm probably going to make a separate post on it.

The PCs are on the cusp of turning 9th level so I would have the option of either having the character start as CR8 or 9 (basically, whether he would gain another cleric level or not). I think that the character would be fairly close to a level 9 character but he has some features that could cause problems for me as a GM. I also don't want it to feel overpowered from the perspective of the other players, either. To be fair none of the other players got to come in playing anything with a Template, HD from an odd race or anything special like that so if I do allow it then I am likely to start him off nerfed in comparison to the rest of the party.

Off the top of my head there is DR 5/Adamantine, SR, Fast Healing 5 and Construct immunities that could quickly become an issue. Some of the Construct immunities aren't a major issue due to him also having the Lifespark Template and allowing certain spells to access him again.

I already told the player that I would consider it but I have already made some house rules considering the character. For one I would now allow a Construct to also wear armor. However, I would allow him to benefit from enhancement bonuses to his armor as if enchanting armor. This would be similar to how Warforged worked in Eberron. So he could use things like Bracers of Armor but not Full Plate armor. He already has a fairly high AC.

I am inclined to allow him to play the character but I think I may have to make some more rulings on things and try to clear up as much as I can before giving him the go ahead. I think I will also need to talk to the other players to make sure they are ok with it as well. I've never had a player use a character like this and hope I haven't missed any of the pitfalls. I also am not certain how I am going to handle certain things.

Any suggestions? Anyone think I should outright disallow it?


It sounds really awesome, and I would love the opportunity to both DM with and play as this character.

It does seem slightly overpowered, but the fact that he can't benefit from any spell that allows spell resistance, with the exception of a few necromancy ones, and can't be healed with positive energy would help balance it.

How do the other players feel about allowing this?

Are they going to demand their own power suits?


Ask your other players. Your players' opinions of his power level versus theirs may or may not have any basis in reality, and in my opinion, it's likely to be player sentiment that disrupts the game, not DR and fast healing. If the SR seems important (that is, do you run a lot of casters?), probably drop it a few notches. The price of having a spirit and all that, or whatever.

The part that gets me is that you'd end up with a 6 HD Guardian with 5 HD of Cleric. Even ignoring Construct Immunities and whatnot, that's a guy who's going to be 2 levels ahead of the rest of the party in terms of HD, saves, BAB and skills. No bueno.

I'd chop a couple cleric levels off and see if the player still wants to play it.


My suggestion would be to try an keep the 'fluff' you have established for this NPC, but alter some of the crunch to keep it more balanced. Still have it be a gnome cleric in a construct body, but make the body more equivalent to a typical PC race. There are a few construct options out there (you mentioned Warforged from Eberron, I'm sure converting those would be easy and have been done many times.)

Basically, the concept is cool, and having your player want to take over an existing NPC is cool, but don't get hung up on the numbers and mechanics you have used for the NPC when you go to conveting it into a character for a player.


No, this is way too powerful for a PC. If someone else in the group got to be this and I was just some regular elf or human or something, I'd be very frustrated.

DR, SR, Fast Healing, and Immunities are crazy, but you're also forgetting that you can't balance a party with "CR." CR is how hard they are to fight. A Graven Guardian is CR 5, for example, but they have 6d10 hit dice. A plain graven guardian next to a 5th level Fighter blows the fighter away.

What domains does the Guardian have? Some of those are really strong, especially on top of 5 Cleric levels.

Scarab Sages

This sort of question is really best answered in the specific context of this player, your group, you, and your game, rather than asking the Internet to rule on a situation it's blind to the specifics of.

That said, I would err on the side of trying something novel.

Remember, kids: In the real world, there are no rules - only facts!


It's fine. If anything he's weaker than he'd be if he were a 9th level cleric with 5th level spells.

Fast Healing is a non-issue. It's too slow to make a huge difference in a fight, and realistically all it's going to do is save you a tiny amount of pocket change on cure wands- something that would otherwise be annoying for this character, as a construct.

The SR is minor. It's a static SR 16 that will never improve, and PC-side SR has the downside of "protecting" you from friendly spells as well.

Your characters are at the level where stoneskin is a fairly common thing. His DR is weaker than stoneskin, but doesn't have a damage cap. Furthermore, DR/adamantine is penetrated by any weapon with an enhancement bonus of +4 or higher, meaning in the long run it'll be protecting him against some of the damage from mook attacks and none of the damage from big threatening bruisers and BBEGs. Plus it's not Hardness, so it does nothing at all against magic damage.

His saves are going to be identical. A Cleric 5/Construct 6 has +6/+3/+6 saves. A Cleric 9 has +6/+3/+6 saves.

He also has no constitution modifier, which means his hitpoints are going to fail to scale appropriately. If anything you'll need to toss him a buff and make options to increase his hitpoints to level appropriate values a reality.


Talk to your party, see how they feel about this. And give them available options to play with as well.

Some people from what I have read consider the human or dwarf as the baseline of what is an acceptable power range for a player. That Aasimar and Tieflings are too powerful due to them blowing the human and dwarf out of the water in terms of racial power.

But if the CR of the Guardian is 5 so shouldn't it be a CR 5/Gnome cleric 3 or 4. Fluff it as him losing access to some of his divine powers due to the loss of his physical body. Use the CR buy off presented in the monsters as pc section allowing him to buy off CR down to CR 2 at levels 8 11 14 so when he hits 15 he would be Cr 2/Gnome Cleric 13 or something. (New to PF so that CR thing is new to me)


Lifespark grants constructs the mental ability scores normally denied nonliving creatures. As an NPC, I'm guessing that the GM didn't toss him anything lower than a 10 (it says to roll 3d6). He probably just kept the cleric's mentals.

6 levels of Fighter grants 4 bonus feats, Weapon Training, Armor Training, and Bravery +2. Better if you do some archetypes.

6 "levels" of construct grants a slam attack, SR, DR 5/ad, Fast Healing 5, SR 16 (works on a roll of 7 or less against equal level enemies, and only gets worse), a free +1 Keen weapon, Haste 1/day, and like one other thing.

Taking straight up levels of Figher on an appropriately statted level 5 cleric would be a lot more powerful than a slew of defensive abilities and one SLA. In practice he'll end up with a tank who doesn't hurt that much, and whose casting is closer to Paladin than Cleric.

One of his domains must be Artifice for fast healing 5, I haven't spotted what the other is.

I still don't like some PCs having straight up more HD/Levels than others.

Edit: Yep, his HP still sucks. Good catch Aratrok.


Adding class levels to creatures functions differently. The first class level you add to a creature increases its CR by 1 and modifies its ability scores. Thereafter either a class level or two class levels increases the creature's CR, depending on whether that class fits the creature's pre-existing role. But after you have as many class levels as your original CR, each class level increases CR by 1 no matter whether it's key or not. For more information read the Bestiary chapter on advancing monsters by class levels.

For example, adding Barbarian levels to an ogre is a key class, so each level increases its CR by 1. But adding cleric levels to a construct built for smashing with no spellcasting to speak of isn't key, so two levels increases CR by 1.

So a Graven Guardian/Cleric 1 is CR 6, a GG/Cleric 3 is CR 7, and a GG/Cleric 5 is CR 8. But a GG/Cleric 6 is CR 9, and a GG/Cleric 7 is CR 10.

It's also worth noting that, while it isn't a rule, it's an assumption in baselines that having PC WBL increases CR by 1. An NPC Wizard 5 is CR 4, while a PC Wizard 5 is CR 5, the only difference being that the PC Wizard has more funds. If you run with this assumption, a Graven Guardian with 5 cleric levels and PC wealth would be CR 9 (and fit into a party of 9th level characters).

This works pretty well, but you'll probably need to figure out a way to give him some more hitpoints later, since constructs don't have a Constitution modifier to increase for more hitpoints like everyone else (Lifespark grants mental ability scores, but not a Constitution score).

@Pardieu:
Side note, but Aasimar and Tieflings are not apperciably better than other PC races. They're slightly stronger, but the biggest difference that makes is at really low levels where a lot of your power comes from your ability modifiers and they have a slight advantage. The difference is vanishingly small after a few levels (and dwarves are probably overall superior to them anyway due to their save bonuses and options like Steel Soul and Glory of Old).


If your players are okay with it, that's what matters, IMO. Check with them.

This sounds like a cool campaign.


I would be receptive to just about anything as a DM, though most of those particularly receptive times were in solo campaigns where I didn't have to worry about any of the other players being irritated about the OP nature of the other player.

I suggest that everyone in the game be given an opportunity to play something really "cool".

As far as a group game goes, I suggest keeping everyone on the same page.....


Based on using the CR guidelines and rules, you're okay with a GG/Cleric 5. If the party was APL 16/CR 16, would you also think a GG 5/Wizard 20 is balanced with them? GG is CR 5, 20 non-key levels is 10 CR, that makes him CR 15, PC wealth is +1.

Meanwhile, the Human Wizard 16 in the party is also CR 16.

Grand Lodge

Instead of a "switch", just have the player take control.

Note to the player, that the NPC he now controls will never level.

Basically, he has his new RP opportunity, and doesn't have a new advantage over everyone else.

This also keeps his current PC in the game, and if this construct becomes a problem, you can easily phase it out, without disrupting the game.


Aratrok: You hit the nail on the head for how I calculated his CR. Pathfinder doesn't have ECL like 3.x did but it comes out about the same.

I did not give him PC wealth by level. He is well below that. However, also note that he does get that free +1 Keen weapon which gives a significant boost to WBL if you consider that "wealth".

To answer a few questions that were brought up: I do not plan on making an adjustment to allow him to get hitpoints more easily. If he wants more hitpoints he can take Toughness. If that isn't enough, well, tough (heh... punny). Seriously, he is getting a boon early on by having more than average HP. Sure it doesn't scale, but that is one of the losses I think he still has to deal with. He can still get Toughness and Favored Class bonuses. His DR and Fast Healing should be a decent proxy for the difference.

It is true that SR doesn't scale and we are at the level now where it is beginning to become meaningless and perhaps even a hindrance.

The domains I gave him are Artifice and Community. They seemed closest to the Gnome Crafting god that he worships (a homebrew deity).

His mental stats are the same as when he was in a living Gnomish body. However, to be fair I didn't dump his physical stats. He had functional adventurer stats prior to his change. He still probably came out ahead, though.

Inlaa: Thank you. I have fun running it and my players seem to enjoy it. My son talks to me all the time about it. :)

Jaunt: To answer your question I would think that the CR rules do break down in later levels. My personal opinion on the matter is that the character's Graven Guardian hit dice and abilities are worth about 2.5 levels at any level. To er on the side of caution I should probably make them worth about 3 levels and have the character start a level behind the party. That is a pretty big drawback to being a full caster.

So, no. I would not scale it like that because I do not believe that is balanced.

BBT: I think you are an Evil aligned DM. ;) I wouldn't deny him leveling his character. I am really just trying to judge how much his Graven Guardian is worth.


Jaunt wrote:

Based on using the CR guidelines and rules, you're okay with a GG/Cleric 5. If the party was APL 16/CR 16, would you also think a GG 5/Wizard 20 is balanced with them? GG is CR 5, 20 non-key levels is 10 CR, that makes him CR 15, PC wealth is +1.

Meanwhile, the Human Wizard 16 in the party is also CR 16.

You should go back and read the post. A GG5/Wizard 20 would be CR 23. CR 24 if he were a PC.

@Lune
Low hitpoints is a long term problem that won't crop up for a few levels, but something you'd want to be aware of. For example, a melee cleric at 9th level can be expected to have around 70 hitpoints, and a Graven Guardian with 5 Cleric levels has 75. But 5 levels later, the Graven Guardian cleric still has 98 hitpoints, while a 14th level cleric would be sitting at around 120 (assuming he's conservative and doesn't invest more than a 14 in Con including items). At 20th, he's in the ball park of 210-250, while the Graven Guardian has just under 150 even if he takes toughness and is so fragile he buckles under most attacks quite easily.


The general consensus seems to be to let him play it. There is some disagreement with how much is Graven Guardian abilities are worth. I take a moderate view of this.

The immunities are a double edged sword. They actually rule out a lot of buffs which significantly hamper the character. Being a Cleric who isn't able to cast as high of level of spells as she should be for his APL he isn't going to be casting many spells offensively. His summons are too far behind to matter. That leaves buffs and he is immune to many of them. He could cast them on his party but that leaves him fairly lackluster. It is true they help against enemy abilities, but to me it seems almost even. Then when you consider the mental spells still affecting him at a -2 Save ... it could honestly make him a liability.

His HP are slightly ahead currently but will quickly begin lagging behind. Overall this seems balanced to me but he is front loaded.

SR is a non-issue.

The combination of DR/Adamantine and Fast Healing 5 do seem rather powerful to me. The character does run around with a Shield Other ring that he hands out so this is a fairly powerful ability. It is like giving fast healing to a Life Oracle with the Life Link ability... but only for one person.

The free +1 Keen weapon would be better on a full BAB class or a character fully devoted to melee combat. Still, he is no slouch in combat. In fact, I spent some of the WBL to improve the weapon and gave it Throwing. But for a Cleric who cannot buff himself to become as powerful as a front line Fighter ... this will quickly become a non-issue.

Same with Haste. It is self only and he doesn't get as much benefit of it as he would if he were a full Fighter.


I always miss the part about reaching the original CR in levels. Alas.

My point is that CR breaks down horrifically as a balancing mechanism, even if I illustrated it poorly. There are a number of monsters I wouldn't want to give a PC control of with the ability to purchase 2 levels per level thereafter.

If I were a player, I'd be worrying more about the precedent being set than the actual effectiveness of the character. I'll reiterate the talk to your group advice.


I'll give a bit more information here:
The character currently has 96 HP.
A standing AC of 23.
Attack bonus is: +14/+9 for 1d4+4 Damage, 19-20/x4

Feats:
Toughness, Improved Initiative, Groundling, Scribe Scroll, Deific Obedience, Skill Focus: Knowledge (Religion)

He has one level into the Exalted PrC.

Currently I allowed the character to keep the Gnome Magic racial ability due to the nature of his creation. I may remove that for the player.

Another thing to note is he gains a 30ft movement speed even though I kept him small. I could change that too.

Some of his other gear:
+1 Arrow Catching Heavy Steel Shield
A Ring of Friend Shield
+1 Burrowing Bracers of Armor (I might allow this to work more like a Docent for a Warforged)
Ring of Summoning Affinity (Agathion)

Silver Crusade

Dave Justus wrote:

My suggestion would be to try an keep the 'fluff' you have established for this NPC, but alter some of the crunch to keep it more balanced. Still have it be a gnome cleric in a construct body, but make the body more equivalent to a typical PC race. There are a few construct options out there (you mentioned Warforged from Eberron, I'm sure converting those would be easy and have been done many times.)

Basically, the concept is cool, and having your player want to take over an existing NPC is cool, but don't get hung up on the numbers and mechanics you have used for the NPC when you go to conveting it into a character for a player.

wyrwood might be better


Aratrok: I think you have the HP wrong.

I also should note that my original post was wrong. I had forgot I also gave him 1 level of Exalted thus bumping his CR up higher than the rest of the party. I should probably resolve this. But with his current state he has the following:

10 (small construct)
5 (favored class)
12 (toughness)
8 (max starting first level)
25 (average rounded up HP for d8 x5)
36 (average rounded up HP for d10 x6)
-----
96HP

Did I do something incorrectly?

Grand Lodge

I wouldn't disallow him leveling his PC, just not the new Golem PC he is now controlling.

Think of it, like having a Wizard build a Golem.

The Wizard gains levels, and whatnot, but the Golem remains the same.

This is basically the player's new pet Golem.

Now, he controls two players.


I was under the assumption his spirit was in a normally sized graven guardian. Medium constructs get 20 bonus hitpoints, so

20 Base (Medium Construct)
6*5.5 -> 33 (d10 hit dice)
5*4.5 -> 22.5 (d8 hit dice)

Total 75 hitpoints. The first level of a class added to a monster doesn't get a maximized hit die. I didn't include a favored class bonus because those aren't always spent on hitpoints, it's just an option. I also didn't know he had toughness (you mentioned that if he wanted more hitpoints he could take toughness, so I assumed he didn't have it yet).

You usually use the average on hit dice unless you're rolling them. AFAIK Pathfinder Society uses average +.5 to make PCs slightly more durable.


BBT: Nah, I wouldn't let him have 2 characters. He would get this character or some other new character he would make.

Aratrok: Gnome sized Graven Guardian. ;)
In this case it shouldn't be considered a "monster" but rather just an NPC. Important named NPCs in my setting follow the same rules as characters. I'm not letting him get the d10 at full HP though, he gets his class hit dice at full HP. In this case I think that favored class might better be spent on HP because that is his best (and one of only 2) option at increasing his HP beyond leveling. And yes, I use the same system for HP as PFS.

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