The real challenge will be getting your average group of Pathfinder players to role play ancient Greek sexual mores, where most the accepted forms of sex were between man and wife and mature man and adolescent boy.
Like Socrates and Alcibiades or Achilleus and Patroclus. I don't like your chances.Eh, it was a little more complex than that, but, yeah - it was fairly different than today.
There was no real concept of "homosexuality" vs. "heterosexuality"; rather, things weren't cut-and-dry at all, and from what archaeologists have gathered, bisexuality was so commonplace that it wasn't even given a title at all - it was just assumed that men and women had sexual partners of both genders throughout their lives, especially men (vs the modern view where women are the more sexually liberated).
The only real taboos for the Greeks were maternal/paternal incest and bestiality.
I feel like I shouldn't even have to mention necrophilia, but for those dingbats who would ask - yes, okay, necrophilia was also taboo.
So three things were off limits: parents, animals, and dead things.
I agree with most of what you say.
The Greeks, and Romans I believe, defined sexuality more by the role played during sex than the gender of the participants.
As Cleanthes says- " So, if the erastes and the eromenos were discrete about their relationship (which didn't, btw, require them to hide the fact of the relationship), had an exclusive relationship over a long term, and kept up the appropriate appearances concerning who was desiring what, the relationship might not only not do any harm to the standing of either party, it could actually make them objects of public approval."
I would add that the older man, the erastes, had to play the male role in sex and the relationship had to cease at the "appropriate time, when the eromenos grew too old.
But other homosexual relationships were considered eccentric at best, eg between two fully adult men, especially on the part of the one who played the feminine role in sex, a kinaidos, which was a disgrace.
If all this interests anyone [except Cleanthes, who I suspect knows it all] Foucault's History of Sexuality can be consulted. Its excellent imho, as are most books by Foucault.
Glad to help, let us know how it goes.
Wow wasn't expecting so much feedback thank you all
And I wasn't expecting to be discussing Foucault on a Pathfinder forum. :O
I am no expert, but the antique era had a very different view on morality and personal honour than more recent societies. Perhaps one of the sages here could elaborate?
I am sure what you say is true Sissyl. But my knowledge is not extensive enough to answer your question anything like fully.
In Homer, which was written around 800BC about events [if they happened at all]400 years previously, the view is taken that one of the greatest things you can achieve in life is fame, as that is the only kind of immortality available. I guess some people think like that now.
Another thing which is true of the writings of Assyrian and Egyptian rulers,or on their behalf, [long before classic era Greece] is a seemingly megalomaniacal lack of modesty. Modesty seems to have been invented later.
Another thing you find, and its true of writings of only a couple of centuries ago if that, is a degree of racism and sexism that would seem comical now. Plato thought that it was wrong to enslave Greeks, but it was OK to enslave other scum. That was an enlightened view on slavery for the time.
When you see historical dramas where the people are very like people today, if its from long ago at least, its totally crap in terms of accuracy.
Persons interested could look at Nietzsche's Birth of Tragedy and On the Genealogy of Morals. But these books are not easy, and are controversial and tendentious.
They'd have to be younger. If I recall correctly, they stop being eligible targets once the beard starts growing in. Beards are about as much an item to a Greek hero as they were to a proper dwarf.The real challenge will be getting your average group of Pathfinder players to role play ancient Greek sexual mores, where most the accepted forms of sex were between man and wife and mature man and adolescent boy.
Like Socrates and Alcibiades or Achilleus and Patroclus. I don't like your chances.It should be noted that the boys who participated, or were made to participate in man-boy love affiars were essentially ruined for life as far as their participation in society goes.
The classical greeks did not stone men for homosexual relations, but saw them as one man yielding his power to another. This would change considerably after the Classical period.
[Warning: I teach a university course on this material, so I could get really pedantic. I'm going to try to control myself.]
It's a bit more complicated than this, though you're right that the Greek homoerotic relationship was typically not between equals; there'd be an older male (the "erastes", or lover) who was expected to be sexually attracted to the younger male (the "eromenos", or beloved), who was expected *not* to be sexually attracted to the erastes. Also, the Classical Athenians made several distinctions that shaped how they reacted to various relationships. Age was important; younger boys were not appropriate targets for "legitimate" eros, though exactly what constitutes "too young" is a bit controversial. James Davidson, one of the foremost scholars on the topic, asserts that to be legitimate targets, young men needed to be about what we would consider 18. (The ancients didn't track birthdays like we do; it's complicated :-p)
Adolescence hit later in the ancient world. It's the same dynamic that now has girls menstruating years earlier than they used to.
But you're right that hair growth was an important marker.
The real challenge will be getting your average group of Pathfinder players to role play ancient Greek sexual mores, where most the accepted forms of sex were between man and wife and mature man and adolescent boy.
Like Socrates and Alcibiades or Achilleus and Patroclus. I don't like your chances.In the epic of Troy, Achillies gets into a funk over a Trojan priestess that was given to Ajax as a spoil of war. He refuses to get into the fight again until his eromeno, Patroclus gets killed wearing his armor into battle.
As Hector would find out the hard way, he took the loss rather personally.
Actually, the Classical Greeks who thought Achilles and Patroklos were lovers argued about which was erastes and which eromenos. They wanted to make the more stereotypically manly Achilles the erastes, but they were confronted by the clear statement in the Ililad that Patroklos was the older of the pair, and so would be expected to be the erastes. Different ancient authors handled the situation in opposite ways.
The real challenge will be getting your average group of Pathfinder players to role play ancient Greek sexual mores, where most the accepted forms of sex were between man and wife and mature man and adolescent boy.
Like Socrates and Alcibiades or Achilleus and Patroclus. I don't like your chances.Eh, it was a little more complex than that, but, yeah - it was fairly different than today.
There was no real concept of "homosexuality" vs. "heterosexuality"; rather, things weren't cut-and-dry at all, and from what archaeologists have gathered, bisexuality was so commonplace that it wasn't even given a title at all - it was just assumed that men and women had sexual partners of both genders throughout their lives, especially men (vs the modern view where women are the more sexually liberated).
The only real taboos for the Greeks were maternal/paternal incest and bestiality.
I feel like I shouldn't even have to mention necrophilia, but for those dingbats who would ask - yes, okay, necrophilia was also taboo.
So three things were off limits: parents, animals, and dead things.
I agree with most of what you say.
The Greeks, and Romans I believe, defined sexuality more by the role played during sex than the gender of the participants.
As Cleanthes says- " So, if the erastes and the eromenos were discrete about their relationship (which didn't, btw, require them to hide the fact of the relationship), had an exclusive relationship over a long term, and kept up the appropriate appearances concerning who was desiring what, the relationship might not only not do any harm to the standing of either party, it could actually make them objects of public approval."
I would add that the older man, the erastes, had to play the male role in sex and the relationship had to cease at the "appropriate time, when the eromenos grew too old.
But other homosexual relationships were considered eccentric at best, eg between two fully adult men,...
The two men were expected to end their *sexual* relationship once the eromenos got old enough, but that didn't mean their *relationship* ended, and in fact there were celebrated cases of erastes-eromenos pairings that remained close for decades. Though who knows whether they were still having sex or not? Or whether the older male was always the penetrator? We don't even know for sure that that's what happened when they were still expected to be sexually active. There's what the ideal model suggests, and there's what actually happened, and we don't know much about the latter.
Also, w/ respect to Foucault, his work on ancient sexuality is largely (and avowedly) derivative on K.J. Dover's _Greek Homosexuality_. And more recently, James Davidson's _Courtesans and Fishcakes_ and _The Greeks and Greek Love_ have challenged a lot of Dover's/Foucault's interpretation, especially about the connection between masculinity and penetration. Worth a look if you're into this material.
The best reference for all your mythological requirements.
Barbarian (e.g., Herakles)
Bard (e.g., Orpheus)
Brawler (e.g., Polydeukes the boxer; generally I think the brawler class would be best used to make a pankriatist, far more over the monk)
Druid (e.g., Proteus)
Cavalier (e.g., Kastor the horse-tamer)
Fighter (e.g., most of the cast of the Iliad)
Oracle (e.g., Oracle of Delphi)
Ranger (e.g., Orion, with his animal companion Sirius)
Rogue (e.g., Perseus -- he uses sleight of hand to steal the Gray Sisters' eye and stealth to kill Medusa)
Slayer (e.g., perhaps, Theseus)
Witch (e.g., Medea or Kirke)
I mostly agree, but I'd actually suggest a lot of barbarians in e.g. the Iliad. Mechanically, the class is an excellent fit for guys like Achilles and Hector, and thematically, rage not only occupies a large place in general, it also plays a major role in Homer's descriptions of particular duels and battles.
In fact, I think barbarian is generally a great class for a whole lot of heroes out of Greek myth.
You can always fluff some of the spellcasting as, if divine gifts granted by deities (which certainly abounded), mastery of certain mysteries or ancient "science." Spell choice matters too and may have to be paid attention to.
As for spellcasters, while the myths do tend to favor the he-man martial types, I think that for PCs there's room to fit them in, particularly as far as the cults go.
Also as foreigners. Greek mythology includes myths about the peoples surrounding Greece, too, and not infrequently they ascribed magic powers to such peoples.
But really, that part depends more on what the OP and group want, because both 'PC spellcasters' and 'no PC spellcasters' can be made to fit into such a setting.
If you want the setting to have room for PC magicians, it's not too hard to fit an 'Ethiopian' mystic, Egyptian priest or Persian mage, or indeed, quite fully Greek Dionysian bard into mythic Greece.
If you want to have a party of he-man spear-shakers, it's not hard to leave those things out either, or relegate them to NPCs and foes.
I mostly agree, but I'd actually suggest a lot of barbarians in e.g. the Iliad. Mechanically, the class is an excellent fit for guys like Achilles and Hector, and thematically, rage not only occupies a large place in general, it also plays a major role in Homer's descriptions of particular duels and battles.Barbarian (e.g., Herakles)
Bard (e.g., Orpheus)
Brawler (e.g., Polydeukes the boxer; generally I think the brawler class would be best used to make a pankriatist, far more over the monk)
Druid (e.g., Proteus)
Cavalier (e.g., Kastor the horse-tamer)
Fighter (e.g., most of the cast of the Iliad)
Oracle (e.g., Oracle of Delphi)
Ranger (e.g., Orion, with his animal companion Sirius)
Rogue (e.g., Perseus -- he uses sleight of hand to steal the Gray Sisters' eye and stealth to kill Medusa)
Slayer (e.g., perhaps, Theseus)
Witch (e.g., Medea or Kirke)
I'd actually argue that Achilles, Hector, and Diomedes are Fighters.
Odysseus ESPECIALLY is either a Cavalier or Tactician Fighter.
Ajax, however, is pretty much without-a-doubt a Barbarian.
The Oracle of Delphi is arguably a Cleric.
TIRESEUS on the other hand, is DEFINITELY an Oracle (poor, poor Tiresius).
Circe is not a basic Witch, though her mother by some accounts is Hekate; Circe is rightly either a Wizard, Sorcerer, or Arcanist. Either way, she has a Bonded Object (a Wand).
The Telchines were Wizards, or Warpriests (forgepriests), or... y'know, since their are 4 of them, you could probably make the argument that they're each a different mage class and be done with it, although Forgepriest really does suit 'em well.
Medea could either be a Witch or a Shaman.
There's also:
Alchemist (Asclepius, esp. the Chirurgeon Archetype)
Monk (Atalanta, especially due to her extreme speed)
Cavalier (Alexander the Great, Bucephalus being his Mount)
Paladin (Cadmus, who slew the Dragon)
If we're getting into deities:
Skald (Dionysus)
Bloodrager (Ares)
I kind of like Ajax as an Unbreakable Fighter.
Speaking of skalds and Dionysus, the skald class would be perfect for representing maenads.
I kind of like Ajax as an Unbreakable Fighter.
Speaking of skalds and Dionysus, the skald class would be perfect for representing maenads.
See, though, ACHILLES is an Unbreakable Fighter, kinda by his very definition.
Ajax was a bit more... um...
AJAX SMAAASH!!!
Which kinda goes better with the whole Barbarian thing.
Ajax, or Aais, was a warrior who excelled in defence as I recall. That does not sound like a barbarian to me. But its a very long time since I read the Illiad.
Ajax, or Aais, was a warrior who excelled in defence as I recall. That does not sound like a barbarian to me. But its a very long time since I read the Illiad.
Barbarians can have fantastic defense, though. It's not what you usually THINK of for Defense, but they can.
Also, Invulnerable Rager gives them serious DR and they can have Energy Resistance, as well.
The nice thing about the phrase "e.g.," (exempli gratia) is that it means "for example" and that my providing one example does not exempt other examples from being out there. :) And good examples y'all have indeed provided; I love seeing them--just want to be clear I was by no means suggesting what I had provided were the ONLY possible interpretations or examples. :)
I will also stand by my guess that the Oracle of Delphi (the one I'm particularly thinking of is the one from the Oedipus Cycle) would best be created in Pathfinder as oracle, in particular with the Tongues curse and probably the Time mystery. Unless there's stories about Delphic oracles wandering around in metal armor smiting undead that I'm unaware of, I don't see the templar/hospitaler-inspired cleric working for most of the priests (or other divinely gifted creatures, heroes, and villains) described in Ancient Greek lore. Tiresias is a better example of a perhaps more of a "PC" or active "NPC" type though (blind curse, probably Time mystery again, though maybe Lore or Ancestor, depending).
I think something that one should keep in mind for a greek-inspired campaign is the concept of prophecy.
See, though, ACHILLES is an Unbreakable Fighter, kinda by his very definition.Ajax was a bit more... um...
AJAX SMAAASH!!!
Which kinda goes better with the whole Barbarian thing.
He was very strong, and among his memorable feats are fighting a whole day without dropping of exhaustion. He is not recorded as sustaining any wounds. He was well-regarded for his wisdom in battle. So, I'd go with some kind of shield- and Cleave-based unbreakable fighter. He is sort of plausible as an urban barbarian, but he would have to very high level to avoid becoming fatigued.
I'm noticing a lack of Artificer or Engineer type suggestions such as Daedalus. He or someone much like him built Talos, the first and greatest iron golem. He was kind of made of bronze, so either the storyteller was not privy to the secrets of the Artificers, or he was magically strengthened.
In Greek mythology, Talos or Talon was a giant man of bronze who protected Europa in Crete from pirates and invaders. He circled the island's shores three times daily. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talos
I'm noticing a lack of Artificer or Engineer type suggestions such as Daedalus. He or someone much like him built Talos, the first and greatest iron golem. He was kind of made of bronze, so either the storyteller was not privy to the secrets of the Artificers, or he was magically strengthened.
In Greek mythology, Talos or Talon was a giant man of bronze who protected Europa in Crete from pirates and invaders. He circled the island's shores three times daily. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talos
Talos, as I recall, was created by Hephaestus himself.
Daedalus is definitely something to be considered, but he's... weird, though - Artificer doesn't exist in basic Pathfinder, so it's kinda hard to say EXACTLY what he'd be.
In terms of game mechanics, Daedalus would probably be an Investigator with Master Craftsman, especially if he took the Applied Engineering Talent.
You might also want to check out Relics & Rituals: Olympus. I've looked at the book before, and it looks like a great resource to reference.
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/1318/Relics--Rituals-Olympus?term=relic s+%26+Rituals%3A+&it=1
Yes, seriously, this book is awesome! I by chance, stumbled across it when I was working at a hobby shop when I was a kid. If you want a campaign very specific, to Ancient Greek lore, it's the book you want.
I know that you initially just posted for feedback but I'm curious what races you will be allowing in your campaign, DarkxInitiative?
Well I need input on classes would be allowed how they would be allowed like how would wizards work? Or would smaller crossbows have been invented yet and yes I know of scorpions.
How much is Greek Myth going to flavor your campanign?
Delphic oracles did nothing but sit around and prosephy. (Which ironically, is the one thing absent from most Pathfinder Oracles)The nice thing about the phrase "e.g.," (exempli gratia) is that it means "for example" and that my providing one example does not exempt other examples from being out there. :) And good examples y'all have indeed provided; I love seeing them--just want to be clear I was by no means suggesting what I had provided were the ONLY possible interpretations or examples. :)
I will also stand by my guess that the Oracle of Delphi (the one I'm particularly thinking of is the one from the Oedipus Cycle) would best be created in Pathfinder as oracle, in particular with the Tongues curse and probably the Time mystery. Unless there's stories about Delphic oracles wandering around in metal armor smiting undead that I'm unaware of, I don't see the templar/hospitaler-inspired cleric working for most of the priests (or other divinely gifted creatures, heroes, and villains) described in Ancient Greek lore. Tiresias is a better example of a perhaps more of a "PC" or active "NPC" type though (blind curse, probably Time mystery again, though maybe Lore or Ancestor, depending).
Most prophetic spells (e.g., augury) in PF are on the cleric spell list, which oracles use. A cleric or oracle could do those things; I just think oracle has the better flavor of the two. An NPC using their abilities largely to cast those spells particular over and over for a donation doesn't seem inappropriate. Although I revise my earlier statement... I think the Lore mystery is probably better.
Ancient Greek priests also had other duties but they were the usual, boring, ministering to people sort of stuff that usually don't make it into tales of adventure.
Most NPC "oracles" would just be adepts, experts, or even commoners with a unique ability to cast augury 6/day as a spell-like ability. That's probably not so relevant to PCs. It's enough to establish that oracles are somewhat consistent with the tropes of Greek myth. A member of the oracle class is just the adventuring version of that, in much the same way Indiana Jones is the adventuring version of an archaeologist.