All magic weapons are automatically considered to be of masterwork quality. The enhancement bonus granted by the masterwork quality doesn't stack with the enhancement bonus provided by the weapon's magic.
Even though some types of armor and shields can be used as weapons, you can't create a masterwork version of such an item that confers an enhancement bonus on attack rolls. Instead, masterwork armor and shields have lessened armor check penalties.
its a 'Quality' of work, rather then a stack enhancement. Masterwork from Armor would be all you need, then add cost of enhancement.
You can make a masterwork item: a weapon, suit of armor, shield, or tool that conveys a bonus on its use through its exceptional craftsmanship. To create a masterwork item, you create the masterwork component as if it were a separate item in addition to the standard item. The masterwork component has its own price (300 gp for a weapon or 150 gp for a suit of armor or a shield, see Equipment for the price of other masterwork tools) and a Craft DC of 20. Once both the standard component and the masterwork component are completed, the masterwork item is finished. The cost you pay for the masterwork component is one-third of the given amount, just as it is for the cost in raw materials.
The ITEM is masterwork, not half. If half the material has/requires the quality then the item is masterwork.
Per RAW, you cannot enchant a "weapon" to be a weapon unless it's a MW weapon a priori.
Otherwise I can enchant a MW frying pan as a +1 weapon but only have to pay 50gp to make it MW instead of the normal 300gp.
I said this line, I'll say it again "A shield could be built that also acted as a magic weapon, but the cost of the enhancement bonus on attack rolls would need to be added into the cost of the shield and its enhancement bonus to AC."
Right there it states the Shield can be built that acts like a MAGIC WEAPON, at the cost that the enhancement is added to cost.
Edit: lets not even Get into Improvised weapons, as they are listed too.
Doesn't say anything about MW Shield can be enchanted as a weapon. Only that the non-MW shield can be made into a magic weapon "in its own right". I interpret this to mean "follow the rules for magic weapons" (which would require a MW weapon. MW weapon rules say +300g).
The magic weapon rules state that a weapon has to be masterwork to be enchanted. Having a masterwork shield that can't be a masterwork weapon runs into the silliness of enchanting a masterwork climbing set to hit people with.
Though those crampons do look extra pointy...
Doesn't say anything about MW Shield can be enchanted as a weapon. Only that the non-MW shield can be made into a magic weapon "in its own right". I interpret this to mean "follow the rules for magic weapons" (which would require a MW weapon. MW weapon rules say +300g).The magic weapon rules state that a weapon has to be masterwork to be enchanted. Having a masterwork shield that can't be a masterwork weapon runs into the silliness of enchanting a masterwork climbing set to hit people with.
Though those crampons do look extra pointy...
This is the point I'm trying to make. A Masterwork Frying Pan (+50g for +2 to Profession (Cook)) shouldn't be able to be enchanted as a weapon just because it has the word "masterwork" in front of it. Masterwork WEAPONS cost +300g. If you want to enchant a Magical Frying Pan to do +1 to hit and damage, you should have to pay 300g for the masterwork weapon part. Same for the shield. If you want it to be a magic weapon, it should start out as a masterwork weapon, not a masterwork armor.
I'm ok with being wrong, I just wish there was something that said "The word masterwork is all you need to enchant a weapon, therefore you can have magical weapon frying pans for +50g, magical weapon shields for +150g (that can also be used as magic armor), and magical weapons for +300g.
Doesn't say anything about MW Shield can be enchanted as a weapon. Only that the non-MW shield can be made into a magic weapon "in its own right". I interpret this to mean "follow the rules for magic weapons" (which would require a MW weapon. MW weapon rules say +300g).The magic weapon rules state that a weapon has to be masterwork to be enchanted. Having a masterwork shield that can't be a masterwork weapon runs into the silliness of enchanting a masterwork climbing set to hit people with.
Though those crampons do look extra pointy...
This is the point I'm trying to make. A Masterwork Frying Pan (+50g for +2 to Profession (Cook)) shouldn't be able to be enchanted as a weapon just because it has the word "masterwork" in front of it. Masterwork WEAPONS cost +300g. If you want to enchant a Magical Frying Pan to do +1 to hit and damage, you should have to pay 300g for the masterwork weapon part. Same for the shield. If you want it to be a magic weapon, it should start out as a masterwork weapon, not a masterwork armor.
I'm ok with being wrong, I just wish there was something that said "The word masterwork is all you need to enchant a weapon, therefore you can have magical weapon frying pans for +50g, magical weapon shields for +150g (that can also be used as magic armor), and magical weapons for +300g.
Maybe it is in the way you see masterwork. I see it as the innate quality of the item, making it better then the mashed out item.
1)A masterwork Pan gives +2 to cooking, it does not give +1 on attack rolls. However if Enchanted; give +1 then it is for +1 damage and +1 attack roll and -4 for Improvised weapons. Give it a 1d6 like a light mace and results:(1d20)-3 for 1d6+1
2)A Masterwork light Mace gets +1 on attack rolls. Enhanced it gets +1 on damage and a Total of +2 on attack.
(1d20)+1 for 1d6+1
3)Edit Shield cause: a +1/+1 Light shield: Adds +1 ac, and +1 on damage and attacks. Cost: 4180gp or 6180gp
(1d20)+1 for 1d3+1
The shield is innately used to block, but can be used to attack which negates All defense from it. You do loose the defensive purpose of the shield for a round.
In all honesty we are arguing over a few hundred gold, when we are talking about enhancements that cost several thousand to start.
Edit: If you do use the pan, call yourself the Cleric Fryer Tuck? A few laughs for a few thousand gold.
Double Edit:
Now what would be a interesting talk, is how you would calculate Enhancement cost. Would it be both of the lowest for Weapon and Armor, or the cost of the enhancement level for the specific side your getting it on. On the latter half the weapon Enhancements would be cheaper to do first then the armor. As shown above depending on when you got each it could cost 6180gp just to start by going armor then weapons. As bad as it is, I honestly think it is the better way to do it but it is going to cost you. The reason is: is if you enchant your item as is, you have to pay the accumulative cost to overwrite the enhancement it holds every time. A +5 to both would be cheaper for this: Armor, Weapon x5, Armor x4. But you'd be paying an fortune.
The shield is innately used to block, but can be used to attack which negates All defense from it. You do loose the defensive purpose of the shield for a roundExcept with the investment of a single feat it can be used as a weapon and armor in the same round. (Improved Shield Bash)
Wont deny that, but its a feat you have to burn where you could have used it elsewhere, Not all classes can afford the single feat tax. Also see my edit above for my thought on cost
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Wont deny that, but its a feat you have to burn where you could have used it elsewhere, Not all classes can afford the single feat tax. Also see my edit above for my thought on cost
True, but without it you probably aren't worried about using a shield as a weapon anyway (or at least rarely) so the weapon part of the argument doesn't really matter to you. If however you built a Warpriest around the shield bash mechanic (with some other things like Stand Still and Bodyguard and Casting) I would think it would matter to you a great deal. (And yes I have seen a players character starting down this path and theory crafted out further)
I would say pricing went shield (armor) and shield (weapon) separately. Just like you individually enchant two sides of a double weapon monk's spade (shovel) and monk's spade (bull horns) separately.
Though I saw the argument above for it being a single pool, I haven't read it closely enough to argue for or against. (I got the gist and how the price would work, but didn't understand all the reasons why at first glance)
2)A Masterwork light Mace gets +1 on attack rolls. Enhanced it gets +1 on damage and a Total of +2 on attack.
(1d20)+2 for 1d6+1
The Masterwork bonus is an enhancement bonus so it doesn't stack with the +1 of a magical weapon. A +1 light mace has +1 to hit and damage. A masterwork light mace has +1 to hit, +0 damage.
Wont deny that, but its a feat you have to burn where you could have used it elsewhere, Not all classes can afford the single feat tax. Also see my edit above for my thought on costTrue, but without it you probably aren't worried about using a shield as a weapon anyway (or at least rarely) so the weapon part of the argument doesn't really matter to you. If however you built a Warpriest around the shield bash mechanic (with some other things like Stand Still and Bodyguard and Casting) I would think it would matter to you a great deal. (And yes I have seen a players character starting down this path and theory crafted out further)
I would say pricing went shield (armor) and shield (weapon) separately. Just like you individually enchant two sides of a double weapon monk's spade (shovel) and monk's spade (bull horns) separately.
Though I saw the argument above for it being a single pool, I haven't read it closely enough to argue for or against. (I got the gist and how the price would work, but didn't understand all the reasons why at first glance)
Alas item creation alone gives me headaches some days. I could see it going both ways; being up to the DM really, but seeing as it is not a double weapon the enhancements must stack, though it is allowed different enhancements.
The Masterwork bonus is an enhancement bonus so it doesn't stack with the +1 of a magical weapon. A +1 light mace has +1 to hit and damage. A masterwork light mace has +1 to hit, +0 damage.2)A Masterwork light Mace gets +1 on attack rolls. Enhanced it gets +1 on damage and a Total of +2 on attack.
(1d20)+2 for 1d6+1
Oops math is off, My bad.
I could see it going both ways; being up to the DM really, but seeing as it is not a double weapon the enhancements must stack, though it is allowed different enhancements.
Which is the problem about Table Variance we were talking about :) IF you MIGHT get a GM that requires the MW weapon cost, you would be better off paying it than not. A GM that doesn't require it isn't going to penalize you for paying more than you "should" have just to be safe.
You can not put weapon enchants on your shield, even if you're doing Captain America. the only thing you can put on it for weapon purposes would be enhancement bonuses. And I think you'd need feats to make those enhancement bonuses work for attack and damage.
... eh?
Under shield, Heavy wooden
An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.
So why wouldn't the shield be able to take weapon enchantments if its a magic weapon in its own right?
Shields are not double weapons.
Nor are masterwork cooking pans or climbing kits.
===Aelryinth
It is a dual purpose item whose functions are separated per RAW. The point is a double weapon requires two MW costs, not one for the entire item. Each weapon of the item is treated differently.
NO, the point is that double weapons have specific rules because they are two weapons in one.
A shield is not a double weapon and has no link to those rules.
Kindly recall that all this argument about shields also applies to spiked armor.
==Aelryinth
Masterworking a shield is making it a masterwork weapon.
Masterworking a frying pan has nothing whatsoever to do with turning it into a weapon. It's not a weapon. If you turn it into a weapon, then it is not a masterwork frying pan, you've made it something else.
A shield is a weapon...every single shield. They are listed right there in martial weapons on the table.
You cut a double weapon in two, and you have two one-handed weapons. Double weapons are intended to be treated exactly as if they were two weapons, if that is not obvious.
You cut a shield in two and you have a useless piece of junk. A shield CAN be used as a weapon, but it's obviously not its primary function.
The two are not the same thing, and are not establishing a precedent.
Spikes can be added to armor. If the armor is already masterwork, you can then enhance the armor as a weapon...not the spikes. Like spikes added to a shield, it's the underlying item which is important.
There's no precedent whatsoever for having to pay double masterwork costs for the same item (and no, double weapons are NOT a precedent).
A masterwork shield is a master work shield, period. It counts as masterwork both as armor and weapon. It doesn't gain the +1 TH bonus other weapons do, as is clearly indicated by the rules that all pure masterwork weapons gain. That's the difference in the price.
I will also point out that it follows absolute precedent in pricing. All enhancement bonuses for armor cost half for armor that they do for weapons, and that includes the cost of becoming masterwork. Why? Because the bonus is that immaterial.
Since the shield never gains the enhancement bonus from becoming a masterwork weapon, paying the cost twice is immaterial, irrelevant, and clearly indicated as Not Appropriate by the rules.
I literally do not see where all this confusion is coming from. There is no line to split on a shield between weapon and armor...it always is both. It's always masterwork for both once applied, it just doesn't get the benefits of being a masterwork weapon other then you can enhance it once it is.
That's it. That's all there is to it.
===Aelryinth
Shields are not double weapons.Has anyone had any luck finding a magical shield, enchanted as a weapon, in any Pathfinder sourcebook?
I find it really strange that I can't find any, at all.
Even the existence of one would be useful.
The only magical shield as weapon I've ever seen statted out was in the Good Guys book from 3.5 - Hallowed Might? Whatever, the shields of the Asuras were statted out there as spiked shields of bashing +1 flaming.
And that's pretty much it. For some reason, you just don't see Uber Shields (+5 Bashing, +5 Defender) around anywhere...
===Aelryinth
Shields are not double weapons.Has anyone had any luck finding a magical shield, enchanted as a weapon, in any Pathfinder sourcebook?
I find it really strange that I can't find any, at all.
Even the existence of one would be useful.
Spined Shield Technically spiked, that shoots
Lion's Shield It freaking bites.
Volcanic Shield Flaming example of Weaponized Shield, literally.
There are a few that let you bullrush/charge and use a push style spell as well, But those are not what you want. Original source is the Ultimate Equipment guide.
NOTE: All specific magic shields on pages 130-133 of Ultimate Equipment guide, except avalanche shield, belligerent shield, celestial shield, dragonslayer's shield, elysian shield, living steel heavy shield, tempest shield, volcanic shield, wyrmslayer's shield, and zombie skin shield are legal for PFS play.
Negating the point, but it is a Weapon enhancement on the shield.
None of those are enchanted as weapons.
They are all shields.
I'm specifically looking for something, like, +1 Flaming/+1 Bashing Light Steel Shield, or some such.
It doesn't even have to be spiked.
How does "gaining the flaming weapon special ability when used to make shield bash attacks. " Not count? Just wondering.
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He wants to see a published weapon shield so he can see if they double the masterwork price on the shield, and lay this whole argument to rest.
==Aelryinth
He wants to see a published weapon shield so he can see if they double the masterwork price on the shield, and lay this whole argument to rest.
==Aelryinth
Then would not Volcanic Shield Which is officialy published in Ultimate Equipment, just not allowed in PFS play, Fitting?
This +1 bashing heavy steel shield burns with an internal fire upon its boss, gaining the flaming weapon special ability when used to make shield bash attacks. On command, the wielder can make the shield belch forth smoke as a smokestick, but this smoke does not impair the shield user's vision. Once per day, the wielder may cause the volcanic shield to erupt in a cascade of brimstone as the flaming hands spell.
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No. That shield has a few special qualities that make cacluating off of price impossible, since there's no gp value for dropping smokebombs and then seeing through them. It also doesn't have a weapon enhancement.
The Volcanic shield is also not a +1 bashing, +1 Flaming shield...which it would be at a minimum if it were a weapon.
==Aelryinth
Masterwork pricing aside, would enchanting a shield as a weapon and defensive gear at the same time count as a custom magic item (like combining a headband of alluring charisma and a Phylactery of Positive Channeling). Since a shield doesn't have the double quality, or clear rules for enchanting it as a weapon and a shield at the same time. If it is treated as a custom magic item it wouldn't be PFS legal.
That's a good question for the PFS boards. My gut feeling is that as a combo item, yes, it'd be custom, even without the extra cost rules.
==Aelryinth
Masterwork pricing aside, would enchanting a shield as a weapon and defensive gear at the same time count as a custom magic item (like combining a headband of alluring charisma and a Phylactery of Positive Channeling). Since a shield doesn't have the double quality, or clear rules for enchanting it as a weapon and a shield at the same time. If it is treated as a custom magic item it wouldn't be PFS legal.
No, its not custom.
You're allowed to "customize" an item by having an adamantine +3 flaming shocking scythe, or a +1 flaming shocking icy keen dwarven waraxe etc.
What you can't do is have a nine lives stealer thats anything but a +2shortsword.
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Can't believe it's gotten to this point and nobody's corrected this.
There are no such things as masterwork shield spikes, because all they do is modify the underlying weapon.
A masterwork shield is masterwork with or without spikes. You can't buy spikes and pick up a +1 TH, it's still a shield and masterwork shields don't get a bonus to hit.
A shield IS a weapon. A masterwork shield is masterwork for both purposes, defense and offense. There's no 'line' between the functions. Likewise, you never enchant shield spikes...you enchant the shield. The spikes change the shield, the shield is still what you hit with and what you enhance.
==Aelryinth
But there are such things as Masterwork Shield spikes, and they do increase the enhancement bonus to attack.
Masterwork Armor
Just as with weapons, you can purchase or craft masterwork versions of armor or shields. Such a well-made item functions like the normal version, except that its armor check penalty is lessened by 1.
The masterwork transformation spell transforms a non-masterwork weapon into a masterwork weapon. Without using magic, you can't add the masterwork quality to armor or a shield after it is created; it must be crafted as a masterwork item (see the Craft skill).
A masterwork suit of armor or shield costs an extra 150 gp over and above the normal price for that type of armor or shield.
The masterwork quality of a suit of armor or shield never provides a bonus on attack or damage rolls, even if the armor or shield is used as a weapon.
All magic armors and shields are automatically considered to be of masterwork quality.
Even though some types of armor and shields can be used as weapons, you can't create a masterwork version of such an item that confers an enhancement bonus on attack rolls. However, you can create masterwork armor spikes and shield spikes, which do confer their enhancement bonus on attack rolls to attacks made with the spikes.
If you take the Masterwork Shield Spikes, I don't see GMs having a Problem with the shield being enhanced as a weapon. At least none of the GMs in my area have that problem.
Still not sure about straight enhancement on shield with no shield spikes. I would tend to think that you should have to pay for the Masterwork Weapon property, except that the rules specifically forbid that. So Masterwork as armor alone should be enough to start enchanting as a weapon.
If you want to be safe, I'd just go the masterwork shield spikes route, unless of course you want to do bludgeoning damage, then just pay the 300 GP so that no GMs cry foul about it.
Can't believe it's gotten to this point and nobody's corrected this.
There are no such things as masterwork shield spikes, because all they do is modify the underlying weapon.
A masterwork shield is masterwork with or without spikes. You can't buy spikes and pick up a +1 TH, it's still a shield and masterwork shields don't get a bonus to hit.
A shield IS a weapon. A masterwork shield is masterwork for both purposes, defense and offense. There's no 'line' between the functions. Likewise, you never enchant shield spikes...you enchant the shield. The spikes change the shield, the shield is still what you hit with and what you enhance.
==Aelryinth
But there are such things as Masterwork Shield spikes, and they do increase the enhancement bonus to attack.
If you take the...Masterwork Armor
Just as with weapons, you can purchase or craft masterwork versions of armor or shields. Such a well-made item functions like the normal version, except that its armor check penalty is lessened by 1.
The masterwork transformation spell transforms a non-masterwork weapon into a masterwork weapon. Without using magic, you can't add the masterwork quality to armor or a shield after it is created; it must be crafted as a masterwork item (see the Craft skill).
A masterwork suit of armor or shield costs an extra 150 gp over and above the normal price for that type of armor or shield.
The masterwork quality of a suit of armor or shield never provides a bonus on attack or damage rolls, even if the armor or shield is used as a weapon.
All magic armors and shields are automatically considered to be of masterwork quality.
Even though some types of armor and shields can be used as weapons, you can't create a masterwork version of such an item that confers an enhancement bonus on attack rolls. However, you can create masterwork armor spikes and shield spikes, which do confer their enhancement bonus on attack rolls to attacks made with the spikes.
I'll concede to that point.
If you want to have spikes on shield or armor share in the enhancement bonus on the armor proper, they themselves must be masterwork.
This is, however, separate from requiring it on the armor or shield, and the shield itself, notably, can still work as a weapon without needing a second level of enhancement.
Good catch.
==Aelryinth