Warsighted Ancient Lorekeeper of Life... Broken Cheese?


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In another thread involving having a caster that is also good at combat and healing, someone recommended the above saying it was broken cheese. How is this combo broken and how is it cheesy?

Scarab Sages

I wouldn't necessarily say it was broken, but it is a way to get a bit of everything in one package.

Warsighted gets you access to many combat feats on the fly.
Ancient Lorekeeper gets you a few arcane spells on your list, replacing mystery spells.
Life Mystery gets you the Life Link revelation for strong healing ability.
Elf lets you abuse the favoured class bonus to power up a revelation.
Take Extra Revelation feats to make up for the revelations you're giving up for Warsighted.
Oracle is a 3/4 BAB class, and Elf gives you proficiency in longsword, rapier and longbow.

It is undoubtedly a strong package.

Quenly is an ancient lorekeeper Dark Tapestry Oracle.

At 4th level, fully buffed (troglodyte form, bull's strength and divine favour+fates favoured) he gets 3 natural attacks at +10 to hit, for 1d4+7 damage each (well, usually one of the claws is at +9 because of a buckler). He won't always have all the buffs up when every fight breaks out, but he's got enough spells and many forms uses to be able to do so on an average adventuring day and it's often a case of balancing buffing time against attacking. I don't like to spend more than one round buffing.

So far the only very difficult scenario was a dungeon module where I went in with a slightly underpowered 4 person party. Quenly wound up being the tank and the main damage dealer, and it wasn't enough. We bailed (but at least we lived).


Uh, it's not. Warsighted is actually kind of crappy. It's vastly more powerful to be a Spirit Guide than being Warsighted because spells and supernatural powers will always, unfortunately, be more powerful than feats. Ancient Lorekeeper is ok, but if you want wizard spells on an otherwise (mostly) divine caster, I'd suggest a Shaman using their Wandering Hex on the Lore Spirit's Arcane Enlightenment Hex.


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I posted that because its a combo that overshadows so many other classes, prestige classes, and such that makes credible attempts to do similar things. This one character can literally do everything in the whole of the game and do it reasonably well. Admitey not everything at one time but can certainly switch roles fast. For example, a mystic theurge is a valid prestige class and is awesome to play right. Well why would I ever try to play that and suffer through multiclassing or use SLA cheese to speed my progression up when just qualify for ancient lore keeper somehow(racial heritage anyone) and now your a mystic theurge in practice but keep the class features of an oracle. So your a little better than mystic theurge so what?

Well wait now because we still have mysteries and revelations. Remember all we needed for ancient lore keeper was to be elf, half elf, or heritaged; guess what their favored class bonus is? Add 50% to your effective oracle level for one revelation of choice. Most revelations gain little from this as they don't scale to infinity but a few do. The super pet, some armor bonuses, and life oracles channel energy. That's right boys and girls you have a mystic theurge that has 50% better healing than almost any class/race in the game. I admit that dedicated healer builds that put resources into healing will close and perhaps surpass that gap but a plain old cleric or paladin is completely outclassed.

So why war sighted? Life mystery is solid but frankly most of its revelations are junk or not vital to make it work. I'm of the opinion that you only need channeling and life bond with maybe combat healer. So trading in junk revelations for the ability to swap combat feats on the fly to match the situation seems perfectly viable to me. If one wants to shoot you can be competent on the fly, if you need to use reach tactics you got combat reflexes, and so on and on. In fact combat reflexes and bodyguard are my favorite...

I like aid another action as a spellcaster just because I like conserving my resources when things are under control. So I can do so with 1) adopted and helpful traits (+4), 2) bodyguard (thx war sighted), 3) gloves of arcane striking (+1-5), 4) benelovant(+1-5), and other stuff means your putting a cavalier to shame in this department.

One more thing, divine protection. That's right boys and girls we have on top of all that a character that has saves that paladin like. I'm not going to say that this is broken but it takes a character with one good save and makes them have no weakness whatsoever. A 30 charisma at level 20 isn't unreasonable or unattainable, and that's a beautiful +10 to all saves. Better win initiative cause that's the only way to compete.

So of the basic roles in pathfinder we have skills, arcane casting, divine casting, healing, mouth skills, trapfinding (debatable), ranged attacks, and melee fighting. The proposed oracle has melee or archery combat, both casting, mouth,healing and maybe skills covered. If trapfinding trait is allowed we can cover that too. If it were not for simple action economy of one character versus an entire encounter this oracle could handle everything.


Several of the moves like the super pet or the SLA cheese are no longer in the game. And the body guard trick is not really boosted by the class. Because if you invest 1 trait and 2 magic items 1 feat is not Big on top. Sure it have the potential to be good, at most stuff, but it is gonna outshine non of the good options.


Cap. Darling wrote:
Several of the moves like the super pet or the SLA cheese are no longer in the game. And the body guard trick is not really boosted by the class. Because if you invest 1 trait and 2 magic items 1 feat is not Big on top. Sure it have the potential to be good, at most stuff, but it is gonna outshine non of the good options.

Straight classed oracles don't need any SLA's so are unaffected by the recent change and there hasn't been any amendment to super-powering revelations except in PFS. Even then the limitation is your AC cannot have more HD than your level +1 which is still a pretty big advancement. My current Emerald Spire PFS Oracle has just hit level 12 and his AC has an effective level of 16.


But one thing bodyguard did gain was gloves of arcane striking(+1-5) because you could cast arcane spells and you didn't have to take the feat because of warisghted. Not the best thing you could do but it's just another thing you can do that you did better than the guy who was built for it.


As far as this particular combination goes Warsighted is pretty terrible. You can give up 4 of your revelations for some feats, not thanks, I would much rather take Spirit Guide for access to a wide variety of extra spells known, hexes and special abilities.


Renegadeshepherd wrote:
This one character can literally do everything in the whole of the game and do it reasonably well. Admitey not everything at one time but can certainly switch roles fast. For example, a mystic theurge is a valid prestige class and is awesome to play right.

Ooh, I have to disagree with you there. Mystic Theurges are pretty terrible until the end game, and not worth copying for the most part. But again, Ancient Lorekeeper isn't even the best at doing this. Straight up base Shaman does, using their wandering hex on Lore's Arcane Enlightenment. Bards, Druids, Shamans, and Witches already have a combined Arcane/Divine list and Samsarans can use the Bard/Witch list to get those spells on other arcane casters. Oh, and of course there are two other tricks anyone with decent charisma can use:

1) Wear a Mnemonic Vestment and carry scrolls or a spellbook with the off-class spells you want. UMD the vestment to trick it into thinking the spell is on your list

2) Carry a Page of Spell Knowledge and UMD it into thinking it's on your list.

The fact that the spells are higher level makes most of them no longer worth having. By the time I could get a great arcane spell like, say, Black Tentacles, I could have Greater Command anyway. What spells are you looking to get, exactly?

Renegadeshepherd wrote:
Well why would I ever try to play that and suffer through multiclassing or use SLA cheese to speed my progression up when just qualify for ancient lore keeper somehow(racial heritage anyone) and now your a mystic theurge in practice but keep the class features of an oracle. So your a little better than mystic theurge so what?

You wouldn't suffer through those (and SLA tricks don't work anymore) because Mystic Theurge sucks and is not worth it.

Renegadeshepherd wrote:
So why war sighted? Life mystery is solid but frankly most of its revelations are junk or not vital to make it work. I'm of the opinion that you only need channeling and life bond with maybe combat healer.

The core trifecta is Channel, Life Link, and Energy Body.

Combat Healer is ok, Spirit Boost is ok, and Lifesense is nice if you get to that level, but it's ok, because instead of trading your Revelations for something crappy like Combat Feats, you should be trading them for something AWESOME like a fluctuating list of extra spells known each day, some spirit powers (perhaps ANOTHER Channel) and hexes via the Spirit Guide archetype, which is unquestionably the strongest Oracle archetype in the game.

Renegadeshepherd wrote:
So trading in junk revelations for the ability to swap combat feats on the fly to match the situation seems perfectly viable to me. If one wants to shoot you can be competent on the fly, if you need to use reach tactics you got combat reflexes, and so on and on. In fact combat reflexes and bodyguard are my favorite...

You could, uh, just take those as actual feats. I wouldn't, of course--if I were trying to play healer, I'd have Fey Foundling, Selective Channel, and Quick Channel, but if I were going for something else, yeah, just take the feats.

If you're looking for melee power, you almost certainly want to be a Lunar Oracle for the shapeshifting, since polymorphing into a form with lots of natural attacks is almost always the best way to fight.

Renegadeshepherd wrote:
3) gloves of arcane striking (+1-5)

You have no arcane caster level, so even if you could get Arcane Strike, these do nothing for you.

Renegadeshepherd wrote:
But one thing bodyguard did gain was gloves of arcane striking(+1-5) because you could cast arcane spells and you didn't have to take the feat because of warisghted. Not the best thing you could do but it's just another thing you can do that you did better than the guy who was built for it.

You can't cast arcane spells, you cast divine spells. You just move some arcane spells to your divine list.

Scarab Sages

Regarding Ancient Lorekeeper...

mplindustries wrote:


The fact that the spells are higher level makes most of them no longer worth having. By the time I could get a great arcane spell like, say, Black Tentacles, I could have Greater Command anyway. What spells are you looking to get, exactly?

For myself, I'll be choosing the Shadow line of spells. Shadow Conjuration as a level 5 spell, and Shadow Evocation as a level 6. The higher spell level isn't much of a disadvantage since it affects save DC. There's another thread somewhere here that demonstrates that the higher level of the Shadow spells offsets the second saving throw that will normally apply to resolve the Shadow element.

My other Lorekeeper spells will include Vanish (has already saved my hide once, well worth a second level slot), false life and displacement.


Quenly wrote:

Regarding Ancient Lorekeeper...

mplindustries wrote:


The fact that the spells are higher level makes most of them no longer worth having. By the time I could get a great arcane spell like, say, Black Tentacles, I could have Greater Command anyway. What spells are you looking to get, exactly?

For myself, I'll be choosing the Shadow line of spells. Shadow Conjuration as a level 5 spell, and Shadow Evocation as a level 6. The higher spell level isn't much of a disadvantage since it affects save DC. There's another thread somewhere here that demonstrates that the higher level of the Shadow spells offsets the second saving throw that will normally apply to resolve the Shadow element.

My other Lorekeeper spells will include Vanish (has already saved my hide once, well worth a second level slot), false life and displacement.

Yeah, those are really good choices. But like I said, I could get those via other means--Ancient Lorekeeper is not the only way, or even the best way.


Couldn't a Naga aspirant do this concept pretty well also?


Renegadeshepherd wrote:
But one thing bodyguard did gain was gloves of arcane striking(+1-5) because you could cast arcane spells and you didn't have to take the feat because of warisghted. Not the best thing you could do but it's just another thing you can do that you did better than the guy who was built for it.

Og Nice trick. This means that every arcane Spell caster is better than the cavalier not just the anciennitet lorekeeper. And you May risk some saying that the oracle cast divine spells even if it can steal some from the wizard list.

But it is a Nice trick i will buy some floves like that to my kensai buddy:)


Just dotting so I can read this later.


Well cap you merely traded in combat reflexes or bodyguard (situational) for buying arcane strike one way or another. Personally I wouldn't go down this route but it's an option.


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Cap. Darling wrote:
super pet or the SLA cheese are no longer in the game.

They killed boosting an animal companion giving revealation with FCB? When was that?


Renegadeshepherd wrote:
Well cap you merely traded in combat reflexes or bodyguard (situational) for buying arcane strike one way or another. Personally I wouldn't go down this route but it's an option.

I dont see it being that great when the warsigthed Can flex in 3 feats but on a guy that already use bodyguard and is a arcane caster.


deuxhero wrote:
Cap. Darling wrote:
super pet or the SLA cheese are no longer in the game.
They killed boosting an animal companion giving revealation with FCB? When was that?

They didn't kill it, PFS introduced a change. Your animal companion is now limited to a maximum number of HD equal to your level+1. This is a PFS specific change and has no effect on the wider game. It was done by message board post from John Compton. I believe it was supposed to make its way into the FAQ but never has although it was posted over a year ago.

You can find the ruling HERE


andreww wrote:
deuxhero wrote:
Cap. Darling wrote:
super pet or the SLA cheese are no longer in the game.
They killed boosting an animal companion giving revealation with FCB? When was that?

They didn't kill it, PFS introduced a change. Your animal companion is now limited to a maximum number of HD equal to your level+1. This is a PFS specific change and has no effect on the wider game. It was done by message board post from John Compton. I believe it was supposed to make its way into the FAQ but never has although it was posted over a year ago.

You can find the ruling HERE

I seem to remember some dev, i think Jason, saying that the character level was the hard cap for effective druid level but it may just be wishfull thinking.

Grand Lodge

The cap is a PFS-only ruling.

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