some misnamed swords

[ohako]

I got to thinking about the temple sword the other day, and I remember actually seeing one at the Higgins Armor Museum (which is sadly now closed, but all their stuff is at the Worcester Art Museum, btw). Here's a picture

Nandaka

While I was there, that sword was crossed saltire with another recognizable Pathfinder weapon

Zulfiqar

So, in Pathfinder, this nandaka is called a 'temple sword' and does not have the 'can be used as a bardic instrument' language found on the totem spear. Similarly, the zulfiqar is reclassed as a 'rhoka'.

These weapon names have real-life religious meanings (referencing Hinduism and Islam), but I'd say they're on par with the 'battle aspergillum'. Is that the reason why different names were used? In subsequent printings of the APG, UE, and (hah!) the Adventurer's Armory, could we have these names used instead?

[Imbicatus]

I got to go to the Higgins about 6 years ago. I loved it. Sad to hear it closed.

[Elder Basilisk]

Note that, for the temple sword, the first bibliography entry is for a "'Nayar temple sword' of this type."

At least for the first entry, it would appear that Pathfinder is not actually using a different name from the (single) real life name. Rather, they are using one of several real life names, though apparently not the name the curator of the Higgins collection prefers.

[Corvino]

I thought this was going to be a completely different thing. I expected "they've split Bastard Swords and Longswords into two different things when really they're synonyms!". Meh - half the weapons in the game are slightly misnamed. I blame Gygax, bless his historically-inaccurate soul.

[ohako]

Elder Basilisk wrote:

Note that, for the temple sword, the first bibliography entry is for a "'Nayar temple sword' of this type."

At least for the first entry, it would appear that Pathfinder is not actually using a different name from the (single) real life name. Rather, they are using one of several real life names, though apparently not the name the curator of the Higgins collection prefers.

Fair. 'Nandaka' might easily be the name of a particular weapon, rather than a kind of weapon, and the same with 'zulfiqar'. (although it looks like artistic depictions of a zulfiqar are still just called 'zulfiqar').

You know, WAR put up an 'ask me about my drawings' thread. I'll ask him what it is.

Corvino wrote:

I thought this was going to be a completely different thing. I expected "they've split Bastard Swords and Longswords into two different things when really they're synonyms!". Meh - half the weapons in the game are slightly misnamed. I blame Gygax, bless his historically-inaccurate soul.

Yeah, except we have entries in Bestiary 4 for things like 'julunggani' and 'qallupilluk'. Pathfinder's not afraid of weird words from other languages, and honestly I think 'temple sword' does this thing an injustice.

[Gisher]

Corvino wrote:

I thought this was going to be a completely different thing. I expected "they've split Bastard Swords and Longswords into two different things when really they're synonyms!". Meh - half the weapons in the game are slightly misnamed. I blame Gygax, bless his historically-inaccurate soul.

His weapon names are historically inaccurate when it comes to Earth history. They are perfectly correct when using Oerth history. :)

[cnetarian]

Since Nandaka and Zulfiqar are both proper names of specific swords instead of types of swords I'm not certain what you asking. Zulfiqar is the double-pointed (sometimes double-bladed) sword wielded by Muhammad's son-in-law Ali, while Nandaka is the man who became a sword so that one of Vishnu's avatars could slay a demon. Both of the swords linked to seem to be ceremonial swords and are only called Nandaka and Zulfiqar in the collection because of their association with specific named swords. Are you suggesting that instead of 'longsword' the name Excalibur should be used?

[chbgraphicarts]

ohako wrote:

Zulfiqar

Uh... wow, that's... that's offensive, and I'm not even remotely Islamic.

Zulfiqar is a very-important artifact in Islam, and while it's depictions vary, it's never been referenced as serrated, unlike a Rhoka. At the worst it's depicted as looking like a pair of scissors (hello, Kill la Kill), and more usually it's depicted as a Scimitar with a bifurcated point.

And I don't even know WHERE you get the idea that Nandaka would be a Temple Sword considering I can't find even one depiction of Vishnu carrying a sword that looks even REMOTELY like a Temple Sword - like a Scimitar/Katana, yes; like a typical longsword, yes; not a bent-blade Temple Sword, though, no.

[chbgraphicarts]

Gisher wrote:

Corvino wrote:

I thought this was going to be a completely different thing. I expected "they've split Bastard Swords and Longswords into two different things when really they're synonyms!". Meh - half the weapons in the game are slightly misnamed. I blame Gygax, bless his historically-inaccurate soul.

His weapon names are historically inaccurate when it comes to Earth history. They are perfectly correct when using Oerth history. :)

The reason for the difference is that there is no real term for the style of sword used by the Celts, Anglo-Saxons, and Norse, which have noticeably long blades, yet whose grip only accommodates one hand, and no room for any others (although the other hand COULD be placed on the hilts.

They were nowhere near as short as the Roman Gladius Hispanicus, which is the prototypical Shortsword in D&D/Pathfinder.

And yet they were slightly shorter in both blade and grip than the famous "hand-and-a-half" swords of the later Medieval ages and Renaissance, which already had the nickname of "Bastard Sword".

Obviously, too, the Claymore, or Greatsword (Claymore is a bastardization of claidheamh-mor, meaning "Great Sword"), wouldn't do, since they are famously huge.

So, "longsword" became the term for those archetypical swords.

[marcryser]

If we start calling specific swords (scimitar, sabre, cutlass, hanger, etc) or worse, referencing Oakeshott's typology, then your GM will start insisting that you have weapon focus and specialization with the zweihander and, unfortunately, it doesn't apply when you are holding that brand new shiny +4 keen holy bearing sword you just picked up.

[cnetarian]

chbgraphicarts wrote:

The reason for the difference is that there is no real term for the style of sword used by the Celts, Anglo-Saxons, and Norse, which have noticeably long blades, yet whose grip only accommodates one hand, and no room for any others (although the other hand COULD be placed on the hilts.

meh, I use spatha for that type of sword, although I suppose the later examples are not properly spathae in that their blades have too much taper.

[Zelda Marie Lupescu]

Okay, that Zulfiquar is not a rhoka, at all... at best it's a crazy cross between a scimitar, a sawtooth sabre, and a rhoka. I think if you actually made that sword in Golarion, the Red Mantis assassins would take great offense and hunt you to the ends of The Great Beyond.

[chbgraphicarts]

Oh, I should probably also mention that "Longsword" also covers the Chinese Jian, the Korean Saingeom, the Japanese Tsurugi/Ken, which are basically identical to the spathae-style swords used by northern Europeans.

Dueling Swords are equivalent to the Hwandudaedo

The Flambard is the Flamberge/Flambard; a Tiny Flambard is a Kris.

The Falcata is both the Celtic Falcata and the Greek Kopis.

The Scimitar is basically every one-handed non-Katana curved blade, including those used in the Cossaks and Russian Knights, by Ottoman Turks, by Indian warriors throughout history (Shiva is often shown to hold either a Longsword or Scimitar in PF terms), and by Mongolian Warriors.

The Elven Branched-Spear is the Korean Nongseon, or Langxian in Chinese, a "thorny spear".

Tridents are trident/pitchfork weapons from all over the world, including Greece, Rome, China, Korea, India, etc. They have tons of names but are all basically identical.

The Tiger Spear is a subdivision of the Trident but its shape is fairly radically different than a typical Trident.

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Some weapons that don't have Pathfinder equivalents that would be nice:

The Khanda, which is also part of the Sikh symbol, would probably be a d8, x3 Crit, Slashing AND Bludgeoning, but can't be used for Piercing (flat tip).

The Kris. Like I said, a Tiny Flambard is mechanically a Kris, except you take a -4 to use it; it'd be nice to see a REAL Kris as an Exotic Light Weapon.

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I dislike how the Khopesh was handled in the final version, especially since it's one of my favorite swords.

It's officially a non-Monk carbon-copy of the Temple Sword in PF, but a real Khopesh would have both Trip AND Disarm - you can swipe with the inner part of the curve and hook your opponent's feat with the large hook at the tip, OR you can use the tip closer to the handle to grab your opponent's shield or weapon and wrench it from their hands. The Khopesh originally had both qualities in the 3.5-era PF Chronicles days, but lost Disarm in the transition to pure Pathfinder.