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This question is very important I feel for any player and DM considering having a Paladin in the campaign, and is one I have considered often. One quote I found that resonates well with why I see the Paladin as a wonderful class... but I want to see what the rest of you think on the subject.
Found here by KRyan
Paladin as an Example
Consider this story from the Giant in the Playground forum:
Due to setting off a trap, my paladin/crusader and some his comrades were trapped in a solid wall of force that was filling up with a mist that was causing us drowning checks. Our DM was being nice and making it a flat DC 16 fort check instead of a steadily rising con Check, and it took two failure to drop us unconscious.
Through trial and experimentation, we discovered that my crusaders Foehammer and Mountain Hammer maneuvers would crack the shell long enough to get one person out. So, every turn, I cracked the wall, and one person would squeeze through the opening. First out was the wizard, who had failed two saves and had to be thrown. Then the cleric, to whom the same thing had happened. Because they were lying there inert, I sent the monk (trained in heal) out there to help them. At this point, the fighter who was in there, helping me, dropped unconscious due to failed saves. The DM was not being nice to me…I made save after save trying to figure out a way to strike the wall and hurl the fighter out. It ended in me managing to put the fellow on my shoulder, slam the wall with a warhammer, and toss him out. The round I did that in, I got my first failed fort save, upon which my DM said I could feel my lungs filling with water. Still, I was able to hurl my friend out of the wall of death and pick up the gear I’d dropped. Armed and ready, I make my next fort save.
Nat 1. I drop unconscious. IRL, the group panics. And I mean they PANIC. I have been playing the laid-back moral compass of the group…My paladin didn’t police, but he was kind and noble and to many of them, a bit of an innocent…he was a farm-raised boy and it reflected in the way he treated things and people. They didn’t want him dead. Well, the rogue did, but that’s because the player hates me IRL (he’s the person my inevitable conflict thread was about). The swashbuckler’s player almost started crying. And then we switched to the portion of the party that was pursuing a hag coven.
I sat back and actually smiled, because you know what? How much of a better death can a Paladin 5/Crusader 1 with an utter devotion to his friends and his god ask for? I saved every single person in that orb with my conviction and devotion to my god, hurling a fully armored fighter to safety with my lungs filled with water before giving in.
[the paladin’s player steps outside for a break, and returns to discover the party found a way to save him.]
While the cleric and monk and wizard are all thanking me, we hear the swashbuckler’s character scream in the distance. Having recently regained consciousness, I hit myself with lay on hands, charges of a cure mod wand, and start running. The cleric catches up to me and says
Cleric: “Haven’t you done enough heroics for the day?”
Paladin, stonefaced, with water dripping off his face and still coughing up liquid as he runs: “Nope. Paladin.”
That “Nope. Paladin,” to me captures everything a Paladin should be. A Paladin isn’t about forcing his comrades to conform to his oaths; he is not an evangelist or demagogue. He is an example. An example of everything Law and Good can do for the world. He can respect allies who use other methods to achieve Good; he can respect allies for whom Good isn’t their first goal in life so long as they are not Evil. But for himself, he is the unrelenting, unwavering bastion of Good. He tells you he is coming, he plays with all his cards on the table, and he never, ever quits.
And ultimately, Paladins are not beholden to any organization, faith, or even god: they may join with others that they find like-minded, they may worship those deities they think are going to achieve the most Good, but ultimately they answer to Goodness itself. If they discover corruption within their church, or secret evils in their god’s plan, they are beholden to leave that church, forsake that god, and continue to pursue Good.
Paladins and Faith
That’s the ideal, anyway. That is what a well-played Paladin should strive for: and he should not, at least initially, have attained it. A Paladin is only interesting if he falters, second-guesses himself, and so on. To bring up another quote:
Book: I've been out of the abbey two days. I've beaten a lawman senseless. Fallen in with criminals. I watched the captain shoot the man I swore to protect. And I'm not even sure if I think he was wrong.
Inara: [softly] Shepherd...
Book: I believe I just... I think I'm on the wrong ship.
Inara: Maybe. Or maybe you're exactly where you ought to be.
That’s pretty much how your Paladin should be on a bad day. And if he’s doing things right, there will be bad days.
Paladins and Falling
There are a lot of ways to handle Falling. Personally, I tend to abolish it from the mechanics entirely: a Fall occurs only when narratively appropriate, and this is done in consultation with the Paladin’s player. A Fallen Paladin is always picked up by some other great power, typically the Evil that corrupted him.
But that’s not the only approach. Another that I rather like, though it’s never happened in one of my own games, is Falling as going-for-broke. The Paladin is, by definition, holding himself back, and Falls when he stops doing so: but when he does, he is a terrible thing to behold.
For example, another Giant in the Playground post. A cult was unleashing a vile plague, they had captured the head cultist and needed to know where the ritual was to be completed, but could not get it out of him, not even when they began to use torture and the paladin stormed out. When he returned and found they still had not gotten the information, he took over the interrogation:
Cultist:
"Ha! I know who you are, Sir Peter Fairgrave; kingdom breaker, runaway child, father slayer. You can't threaten me: I know what you are. Your order, your God won't allow you to lay your hands on me, otherwise you'll fall, and you won't be able to help a soul."
Sir Peter:
sighs "You seem to be under the misconception about what I am, what I do. I am a paladin, that is true; but as a paladin I don't fear falling... I look forward to it."
The cultist shot a nervous look at the rest of the party, we were all looking at each other, not sure what was about to happen. The cultist opened his mouth to speak, but Sir Peter cut him off.
Sir Peter:
"As a paladin, I walk on a razor's edge. Not between good and evil, I could never be something like you, but between "law" and "justice". The "law" I follow doesn't permit me to harm you, but I could be "justified" in anything I did to you in order to save innocent lives. ANYTHING!"
"You don't know what it is like to be me. You don't know the pain of having to store all your anger, all your fury, all your sense of justice, and hold it inside you, all day every day for the rest of your life. Doing the right thing doesn't mean I get to stop all evil, I just get to trim it when it becomes overgrown. The path I walk is not about vengeance, or what's right; it's about moderation in the face of power, restraint and compassion for scum like you.
"This is why paladins don't fear falling. We don't spend all day looking for ways to prevent ourselves from doing evil and giving in to the darkness -- we actively seek it out. Every time we face evil, we ask ourselves, 'Is this the threat that I'm going to give it all up for? Is this what I am going to give up my ability to help others in the future, in order to bring it down now. Is this the evil that I am willing to forsake my God and my power to stop?!'".
At this point, he stands up suddenly and swings his arm against the chair he was sitting on. Sending it flying and shattered against a wall, he then kicks over the chair the cultist was sitting on, he leaps and straddles his chest, flinging him about for a few seconds in pure rage, before calming once more.
He looks the cultist straight in the face, both their noses just inches from each other.
"What you should be asking yourself now, what you really need to be thinking about, is: 'Is what I'm doing something that will make this guy want to fall?' Because you should know that once I fall, all those rules which protect you from me are gone. No longer will I be able to be stopped by you, or by my order, or by my God. If I give everything, and I mean give everything, I will never stop. If you escape me today, I will hunt you down and grab you into the pits of hell myself. Even if that means that I have to invoke the wrath of every demon in creation, just so they throw open a pit and drag me down where I stand, because when they do drag me down, I will make sure that my fists are wrapped firmly around your ankles and you go down with me. I want you to listen to me now, and I mean really listen, because Hell truly hath no fury like a paladin scorned."
"So I ask you, one last time: tell me where the other rituals are being held, or I swear to all on high that I will fall, and fall hard, just so I can show you what it is that paladin truly keeps his code in order to hold back..."
At this point the player, Chris, just stops talking and looks at us. We are all kind of stunned by his speech, naturally.
He just picks up a D20, looks at the DM and says "I wish to roll intimidate."
The key is that Falling is not a trap and it is not a punishment for bad roleplaying. The Fall is a narrative construct that is supposed to be the height of drama. It needs to accomplish something big: stripping a PC of his ability to do anything does not accomplish that. This is one of the biggest failings in 3.5, in my opinion, and you should talk to your DM about how to rectify that.
Speaking of your DM...
My last piece of advice is, make sure your DM is on-board with this. A lot of DMs have very narrow pre-conceived ideas of what makes a Paladin. Some DMs won’t let you avoid being a stick-in-the-mud. I’d strongly recommend avoiding the Paladin class with such DMs. Actually, I’d probably avoid their games entirely, personally.
I've read this before, and enjoy it each time it reappears.
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indeed. There are some people that here that would rather devote their time and games into ways to force the paladin fall, just to see him fall. IDK why. Paladins can make amazing PCs, and memorable ones at that. Hell, my very first character was a paladin, and me and my friends still remember to this day things that happened with him.
Did someone summon a paladin?
I've never really played a paladin proper, but it's one of my favorite concepts. I've had a particular idea banging in my head for months now.
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Usually the most rewarding class to play, imho, RP wise.
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I've always wanted to play a Paladin, but never gotten around to it. I feel like I could do it really well, and enjoy it, but I don't want to deal with the early eye rolls.
I've felt that the key to playing a good paladin (learned from my players) is to make a character, complete with traits, flaws, goals, etc., who also happens to be a Paladin. Once you have a living, breathing character, you can play the game in such a way that you aren't defined by your mechanical choices, and it becomes more interesting for everyone involved.
I've played some LG characters (I tend to go all across the spectrum; I've played a CE character in an otherwise Good/Neutral party as well) but I've never had the opportunity to play a Paladin. This post really makes me want to play a Paladin.
And you can make awesome speeches by mashing strange things together....
"Listen people living as foes. Maybe. it's not too late; to learn how to love, and forget how to hate; Mental wounds not healing; Living a bitter shame. Turn away and embrace redemption; rise above the noise and confusion; take a look at the truth beyond the illusion. I see a blind man, a mad man yet I hear the voices of redemption, I can hear them say...'Come back my wayward son, for there'll be peace when you are done, lay your weary head to rest; don't you cry no more."
Ozzy Osborn's crazy train
Kansas carry on my wayward son
I think the main way a GM can make a Paladin worth playing is to allow the Paladin fail sometimes. Let them have moments of weakness without using the fall-hammer. A Paladin should only fall when they've done something truly unforgivable, and even then give them a chance to atone for it if their Paladin really wants to try and make up for it.
holy hell was that last bit intense. love it!
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It's more like people seems to think that playing a LG is against the fun of the game...which isn't true.
Anyway instead of hearing me rant about it...someone did it better:
Ah yes, Noah is a great guy though I do worry about him a bit. That video is a good one, I also liked their video "Thou Shalt Not F@$% With the Lady of Pain".
-----------------------------------So does anyone have advice for playing a Paladin or does the quote in my original post say everything that is needed to be said? This is in the Advise area, and while I am glad to see others in agreement in what I posted I would like to see others add to it.
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Did someone summon a paladin?
Yes, JonathonWilder did. That's why I'm here. :D
I've read that Giant's in the Playground entry before. THAT, and what is also said in the quotes of the OP is EXACTLY what a paladin is all about. And that's how I've always played them. They aren't Lawful stupid, or stupidly good. They aren't forcing friends or allies to be exactly like him/herself. They are a shining example to all, living their life the way they do (as shown in the OP) regardless of who or what is around them.
My first PC was a paladin, Odorian Lightbringer (my avatar's father) back in 2E. He was good friends and partners with a LG elf Rgr/Clr, NG human Wiz (Wu jen), and CG halfling (kender) Rog. The wizard had a faerie dragon familiar which made him a bit of a trickster. He got along well with the halfling (kender). The elf was a bit stuffy, and was always about the animals (and he had many).
We were a strange looking crew, but we saved the world on numerous occasions. I never tried to convert them, though the elf was the same religion as me. I simply served my companions, lived my life in obedience to the edicts of good and law. But one has to remember, Law is tempered by good (which is compassion) which is the over-riding aspect of a paladin. If you want a strict law-biter, then go LN. Law without Good (compassion, kindness, etc.) isn't a paladin. He's Judge Dredd - law incarnate.
I never understood why there is such a hate for paladins. They are powerful, yes, but they are also the ones who are meant to throw themselves in harms way, to do all they can to ensure the good for all, protect life, help the innocent, and ensure that goodness in the world survives. My groups have never had an issue with paladins (only with who might be playing them, as they might not be up to the challenge).
Paladins are great for RPing, and make great leaders if they are played right, by allowing their allies to use their strengths as often as possible. "Nope! Paladin!" That sums things up, as does the whole Fallen Paladin entry too. Paladins are willing to do all they can to keep goodness alive in the world (which isn't a bad thing). And yes, like in the OP Fallen Paladin section, they should not be afraid of falling, because if they are doing it right, there may indeed be a time that they deem a threat just too great that they need to throw everything at it to defeat it, including their life, code, etc., for the greater good. But then, if he's doing it all for the greater good, isn't he fallowing his code, as long as he doesn't do something blatantly evil?
Case in point. My paladin and his crew were on a world saving mission, and to succeed, he had to make a pact with a LE evil female githyanki (OGL) knight, because they needed the help of her legion. They fulfilled their common task, and because of my paladin's example and willingness to put all on the line for the greater good, that knight (who had been wanting to flee the control of the githyanki lichqueen goddess) eventually shifted alignment to LN, and eventually LG, and brought with her a bunch of her legion who also joined her in creating a new knighthood on the Material Plane, both in honor of my character's deeds and to serve the greater good themselves. And with his help (and that of my god) they were able to sever their ties to their lichqueen goddess and become free.
That's what a paladin does. Does what is right, regardless of consequences. Making mistakes and failing from time to time as a paladin does not equate to falling. He is still a mortal being, has flaws, good days, and bad days, can be tempted, can make poor choices, but that does not mean he falls. If he fixes those mistakes, then that's part of his code.
I've always been a paladin at heart. Even when I've played a NG or CG character, I've tried to be heroic when the need is required, drawing upon my paladin's heart to guide me. But that's what a paladin is, an exemplar, someone to strive to be like on the Good end of the alignment spectrum - kind, compassionate, etc., while striving to maintain the law. For example, a paladin catches a kid stealing, he can either hand the kid to the authorities, or, give him a lecture about doing good, give him a silver, and go with him to pay for for what he had stolen. Example, example, example, in both word and actions.
"PALADIN!"
OK, that was a lot of text, but I said what I wanted to say. Paladins will always be my favorite, prefered class, even though I've only ever played two of them (class-wise). Though, many of my characters have had paladin-esque qualities, which is the purpose of paladin's being a round, to be an example of how others should act for the good of the world.
One more thing, and I going to throw this out there. If you come here to spread your "paladin hate" ideologies, don't. Go away and find some other thread. Thankyou!
We have plenty of paladin hate threads on the forums, so let's keep this one a "paladin love" thread.
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Thing about Lawful good is too many people see it as goodie two shoes.
For me
Lawful means I like order and structure in my life
Good means I put others before myself
nothing in that says I have to be a douch
Nothing says I can't be a curmudgeon who complains about it all the time, or a fatalist who knows he's fighting a loosing battle but fights it anyway.
nothing says I can't be a layed back slacker who rises to the occasion when called upon.
"We live as though the world was as it should be
to show it what it can be"
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Good to see your reply Elghinn, I thought for certain you would have something to add to this thread. Though we have never roleplayed together I have come to respect you and have always felt your demeanor was much like that of a Paladin, at least how I have often considered them.
Well, as lame as it may sound, I try to live my life as much as a paladin would. I pretty much follow your OP when I've played one, and in my daily life.
Thing about Lawful good is too many people see it as goodie two shoes.
For me
Lawful means I like order and structure in my life
Good means I put others before myselfnothing in that says I have to be a douch
Nothing says I can't be a curmudgeon who complains about it all the time, or a fatalist who knows he's fighting a loosing battle but fights it anyway.
nothing says I can't be a layed back slacker who rises to the occasion when called upon.
"We live as though the world was as it should be
to show it what it can be"
What he said!
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I've always wanted to play a Paladin, but never gotten around to it. I feel like I could do it really well, and enjoy it, but I don't want to deal with the early eye rolls.
I've felt that the key to playing a good paladin (learned from my players) is to make a character, complete with traits, flaws, goals, etc., who also happens to be a Paladin. Once you have a living, breathing character, you can play the game in such a way that you aren't defined by your mechanical choices, and it becomes more interesting for everyone involved.
I think the main way a GM can make a Paladin worth playing is to allow the Paladin fail sometimes. Let them have moments of weakness without using the fall-hammer. A Paladin should only fall when they've done something truly unforgivable, and even then give them a chance to atone for it if their Paladin really wants to try and make up for it.
indeed. There are some people that here that would rather devote their time and games into ways to force the paladin fall, just to see him fall. IDK why. Paladins can make amazing PCs, and memorable ones at that. Hell, my very first character was a paladin, and me and my friends still remember to this day things that happened with him.
Just want to second these fine gentlemen's comments.
It's peculiar how brutally unimaginative people who set down to play a 'fantasy roleplaying' game can be, and the Paladin just draws out the worst of it. There are enormously diverse character possibilities within (Lawful Good + basic code of honor) unless a GM is a complete tool. Among other things, the basic premise that Good > Lawful when trying to obey the code should be pretty obvious for a class that gets Smite Evil and not Smite Chaotic, but I guess some people have an agenda or something.
One of my favorite Paladins was a dexterity-based Sufi mystic type who used Dervish Dance and a level of Sohei to flurry with a scimitar while casting Vanish and Mirror Image with Unsanctioned Knowledge. His personality was meditative, unassuming and potentially even somewhat dangerously detached. His feelings towards evil were more puzzled and sympathetic than wrathful - even if he had a very clear understanding that it was his divine purpose to ruthlessly slice the unrepentantly evil into bloody shreds, with all the efficiency that high initiative and a flurry of smiting allows.
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I love the paladin, it's one of my favorite classes. And I'll agree that the paladin doesn't have to be the "good for the good god" type. But honestly, think that the " good for the good god" attitude is just right every now and then.
I remember fondly playing an elven paladin in a friend's homebrew. Strait laced, stone cold, no fun. Didn't like variations from the norm, didn't abide by the slightest unlawful action. Didn't like the party, he was doing it all at his princess's command. However, when push came to shove, he was there for them. When it came time to run, he held the doorway so the others could escape. He took not one, but two fireballs to the face just to buy the others some time. And he died the way I always envisioned him. A hero.
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It's peculiar how brutally unimaginative people who set down to play a 'fantasy roleplaying' game can be
I've always attributed this to the fact that people with rich inner lives usually also have a big imagination, but not necessarily the skill to be able to communicate this outwardly. Hence the interest in playing a fantasy game. For all they know, they're playing a completely different game than the one the other players observe.
On topic; Ive yet to play a paladin, but this thread is making it very tempting. It would definitely be a welcome change from all the materialistic goofballs I usually tend to play.
-sigh-
So my current GM is convinced Paladins can't commit unlawful acts. (He's a bit inexperienced with Pathfinder but is a well meaning and nice guy all around.) How do I convince him that my grumpy old Paladin can break the rules once in awhile?
Show him the code. It states a paladin cannot commit evil acts, but the only thing it says about law is about respecting (not necessarily obeying) legitimate authority. She can't just ignore the noble police force, but she can make allowances on occasion. And if she doesn't see the authority as legitimate, she's not bound at all.
Oh, and it also says "Lawful Good". If he's resistant on that, show him this.
-sigh-
So my current GM is convinced Paladins can't commit unlawful acts. (He's a bit inexperienced with Pathfinder but is a well meaning and nice guy all around.) How do I convince him that my grumpy old Paladin can break the rules once in awhile?
Show him the code. It states a paladin cannot commit evil acts, but the only thing it says about law is about respecting (not necessarily obeying) legitimate authority. She can't just ignore the noble police force, but she can make allowances on occasion. And if she doesn't see the authority as legitimate, she's not bound at all.
Oh, and it also says "Lawful Good". If he's resistant on that, show him this.
I would also like to note that unlawful and unconventional are two different things. Honestly would suggest picking up the comic Pathfinder Origins: Kyra for a good example of that, as well as another great paladin story.
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Fun Paladin play rule number one: don't tell them you're a paladin.
Don't call yourself a paladin.
Maybe play one who isn't even aware he's a paladin.
Be humble. Do good. Lead by example but don't preach.
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Here is some food for thought when considering what kind of person would be a paladin.
I don't think most people completely digest how something like detecting evil at will can affect someone. I do not see how it could not fundamentally change how a person views reality.
Furthermore, despite what initial presumptions might tell you, detecting evil at will does not make the world more black and white; the actual mechanics of it lead to the opposite conclusion. People forget that detect evil gives false positives on people with actively evil intentions at the moment. Non-evil clerics of evil gods detect as evil, too. Places that evil creatures or magic went through recently will detect as evil. Add those in to the people that actually ARE evil, and detect evil will ping a LOT.
The issue becomes even more complicated the other way. Evil humanoids and such that are 4 HD or below don't detect as evil either, and that group likely makes up the majority of evil creatures on Golarion. Alignment masking magic isn't exactly hard to come across either.
Imagine seeing the presence of evil wherever you go, knowing that there is actually MORE evil that you can't see. You can't even fully trust what you can see, but you are nevertheless constantly reminded that evil is there.
Now, imagine a person that knows all this and keeps going anyways.
-sigh-
So my current GM is convinced Paladins can't commit unlawful acts. (He's a bit inexperienced with Pathfinder but is a well meaning and nice guy all around.) How do I convince him that my grumpy old Paladin can break the rules once in awhile?
Remember, paladins by the PF definition should not consciously do evil, but would only fall from chaotic acts if they are massive enough to warrant an alignment shift - which is to say, a pretty huge life change, like, say, rejecting the order or country you previously served. I think you can make the case that should the rules go against what a paladin thinks is good, it is the rules that should bend. Society needs rules, but they are made to guide and protect people. This is why rules are valuable - because they serve people, not the other way around. If they do not, well, change the rules.
Also, which rules, exactly? Lawful characters have a code, but it isn't always society's code. Lawful does not even mean law-abiding - take Vito Corleone from the Godfather, he is very honorable and with strict views about what is right and what is wrong. A paladin in Cheliax or Nidal may well have to break the local laws, because they conflict with what s/he fervently believes to be right. On Golarion, there are actual gods whose rules and decrees a paladin has to oppose.
-sigh-
So my current GM is convinced Paladins can't commit unlawful acts. (He's a bit inexperienced with Pathfinder but is a well meaning and nice guy all around.) How do I convince him that my grumpy old Paladin can break the rules once in awhile?
Just did that! In fact disobeyed a direct order. My friend had charged bravely into overwhelming odds and I could not let him go alone to die while I waited in safety 300 yards away.
No way! Not on my watch!
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A paladin is someone that despite everything, works towards a brighter tomorrow,
A paladin is someone that would rather capture those bandits, and try to redeem them than out right slay them.
A paladin is someone that would willingly give his life to save that random kid on the street
A paladin is someone that puts EVERYONE before themselves,
A paladin is someone that is the light that stands before the darkness, even if they are the only light there.
A paladin is someone that cannot abide evil acts
A paladin is someone with desires and problems, but puts those away for a greater purpose and cause.
A paladin is someone that would spend all of his "free time" helping the goodly folk, (IE, showing them how to build houses, helping them with said building, feeding them)
A paladin is someone who is his gods Sword, when evil needs smiting, you call a paladin.
A paladin is someone who preaches his view to his friends and others
A paladin is someone who believes in the good of man at all times, yet knows most will fall short.
A paladin is someone who does what they do not for praise, personal gain, esteem, rank or other personal desire, They do it because it's the bloody right thing to do.
A paladin is someone who does not expect to be called a hero, or savior for what they do, and if called a villain, would do it anyway because it is right.
A paladin is someone who is the hope of humanity, they are the light of good.
A paladin is someone who has problems, and fights those problems every day
A paladin is someone that has short comings, and failings, but rises above them not because they want to, but because they have to.
A paladin is someone that puts aside themselves and their life, so that they can better anothers.
A paladin is someone who is all this, and yet so much more.
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Amen brother!
Though preaching to friends, doesn't necessarily mean jamming down their throats! At time perhaps, but primarily through their examples. They also know how to prioritize what is the more urgent evil. But, on their way to get the BBEG, they would likely give a hand to someone in immediate need, then go get the bad guy.
It really comes down to the idea that a paladin is just your normal guy (a farm boy, son of lord, street urchin risen to city protector) who has failings, problems, even additions, but is always trying (may not always succeed) to do the right thing, for the good of all.
On the Lawful Good aspect. As has been said, LG is not necessarily law-abiding, but living according the laws of a goodly land, his god, or the dictates of his conscience. Willing to go against an established law/gov't to pursue a higher law of common good, justice, fairness, equity (not necessarily equality), all within the governance of goodness and righteousness.
As I said before, LN is the ardent law enforcer, without compassion, etc. LG is law, tempered by compassion, fairness for circumstance, erring on the side of leniency, punishment according to the circumstance vs. carte blanch punishment, etc. They realize that "man is not made for the laws" but that "laws are made for man" to help them become better, change, and enhance society.
As to the Paladin COde, all it says is he can't perform an EVIL act. Doesn't mean he can't lean towards a chaotic or unorthodox things along the Law/Chaos axis on occasion. A single act, even a few or many minor acts that are stringently tied to Lawful wouldn't necessarily shift his alignment. Big/major acts, after a number of them, would do so. We need to take a more real world look at the alignment shifts thing. I consider myself LG in general, devout, and try to do good things. However, I have my own flaws and problems, and work to overcome them, "repent" of things that I've done wrong, but always trying to be better. That's what paladins do. Keep going, keep trying to be and do better, try to be an example to others by word and deed, and help those around them to better the world at large. When the need arises, they pull out their sword and board, wade into the fray, crack heads, put themselves in harms way, and even sacrifice themselves to get the BBEG if necessary. But they shouldn't be seeking a glorious death outright, as they should realize that they do more good alive than dead. But if the circumstance necessitates it, they willingly (or even begrudgingly, as not everyone wants to die) step in and give their lives for the cause of good.
The reason I love paladins is because I've always loved the hero trope, the one who fights against all odds to make the world better, destroy evil, and bring light again to the world. That's probably why I see people like Capt. John Sheridan (B5), Aragon (LOTR), Capt. America, Superman, etc as the guys who emulate the qualities of what a paladin is and can become.
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I love paladins, and I think the exemplary posts like the ones in the OP are excellent starting points for thinking about how you can play a paladin, and their rich narrative power. I've never seen examples given for other classes that are as inspiring, and I think it's because the class's abilities fuse mechanics and narrative (i.e. crunch and fluff) in an inseparable way that most other classes can't deliver. This isn't a good or bad thing either way, I think, but it does give the paladin a stronger out-of-the-box sense of identity, and so the variations from character to character can dive deeper, having started from a "deeper" point of initial character development, so to speak.
There is something that bothers me about the way paladins are discussed, though. Maybe "bothers" isn't the right word, but it is a trend I've noticed. I feel like when people talk about paladins, people tend to default to assuming paladins, even in the abstract, are men, more than other classes. I've rarely seen people talk about non-male paladins when discussing paladins generally (although I have seen paladins talked about generally with a male assumption, and you can see that in some of the posts in this thread). And I've never seen any of these great paladin stories/examples with non-male paladins. I can think of different reasons why this might be the case, so what I'm interested in is if anyone else has noticed that paladins are assumed male more than other classes? Maybe I'm just seeing it more strongly because I like paladins a lot but never play male paladins, and so conceptually it's more jarring? What do y'all think?
Probably a mix of a bunch of different things.
Play a female paladin and do something story-worthy to share with us :P
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Here is some food for thought when considering what kind of person would be a paladin.
I don't think most people completely digest how something like detecting evil at will can affect someone. I do not see how it could not fundamentally change how a person views reality.
Furthermore, despite what initial presumptions might tell you, detecting evil at will does not make the world more black and white; the actual mechanics of it lead to the opposite conclusion. People forget that detect evil gives false positives on people with actively evil intentions at the moment. Non-evil clerics of evil gods detect as evil, too. Places that evil creatures or magic went through recently will detect as evil. Add those in to the people that actually ARE evil, and detect evil will ping a LOT.
The issue becomes even more complicated the other way. Evil humanoids and such that are 4 HD or below don't detect as evil either, and that group likely makes up the majority of evil creatures on Golarion. Alignment masking magic isn't exactly hard to come across either.
Imagine seeing the presence of evil wherever you go, knowing that there is actually MORE evil that you can't see. You can't even fully trust what you can see, but you are nevertheless constantly reminded that evil is there.
Now, imagine a person that knows all this and keeps going anyways.
I, in my capacity as an Archpaladin, applaud this assessment!
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Probably a mix of a bunch of different things.
Play a female paladin and do something story-worthy to share with us :P
Working on it in PFS! I did get to give a pretty great speech in Decline of Glory to a corrupt official, and even saved his life from an evil that he (maybe? It's been a while) was responsible for.
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It feels like I've finally come home. :)
...I feel like when people talk about paladins, people tend to default to assuming paladins, even in the abstract, are men, more than other classes. I've rarely seen people talk about non-male paladins when discussing paladins generally (although I have seen paladins talked about generally with a male assumption, and you can see that in some of the posts in this thread). And I've never seen any of these great paladin stories/examples with non-male paladins. I can think of different reasons why this might be the case, so what I'm interested in is if anyone else has noticed that paladins are assumed male more than other classes? Maybe I'm just seeing it more strongly because I like paladins a lot but never play male paladins, and so conceptually it's more jarring? What do y'all think?
I think that has to do with the default of the English language or typically using the masculine form of words. Remember, the iconic paladin is a female. That said, I've never played a female paladin, but have played female characters before. One of my old group members played the sister of my first paladin character. She was essentially a paladin too, more of a homebrew class based on the old Solamnic Knight of the Rose from Dragonlance, but was a female nonetheless.
I tend to talk about classes in the masculine, but that's because I'm a guy. If a particular character is of a specific gender, then I use the proper gender words. While I tend to view paladins as males (because I am one - a male not a paladin, though being a paladin would be cool) I have always believed in the whole girls can do what guys can do, more or less.
With my old paladin character and his sister, they are the two heroes that my novel is focused on. Each leads their own small group of adventurers to fulfill a greater quest that can't be completed without their individual groups succeeding at their individual tasks. While the guy who played my sister wasn't the best RPer in the group, everyone deferred to him as the paladin in the group, the obvious leader, and he grew a lot as a player from the experience. He also had to deal with things a bit differently as a female too.
While the class may be the same, I think each gender can have its own challenges too. What those challenges can be is up to the GM of course. I think most gamers are pretty open minded when it comes to what gender can play what class, and have few hang ups with females found in what may generally be seen as a male role.
That's my 2 cp.
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There was this Neutral wizard, absolutely cynical, travelling with a mostly good party. Eventually, the paladin started getting to her, all through leading by example, not through preaching directly to her. She really started to want to believe in the ideals the paladin stood for, and came to see him a symbol of good and hope that the world(which she saw as a "Sick Sad World") desperately needed.
But she still lacked the faith that those ideals could survive on their own in such a world. She started going about in secret to watch his back and clean up loose ends that she believed would wind up getting him killed. She dirtied her hands handling matters she believed the paladin couldn't, or more importantly, shouldn't. She became more and more devoted to the task of protecting him both as a person and as a symbol that couldn't afford to be sullied by what she considered necessary evils.
When the party left enemies alive, she murdered any who she believed might come looking for revenge on the paladin. If she found out about a problem that could even slightly put the paladin at risk of breaking his code, she would either cut through the problem with brutal efficiency or guide the party away from ever seeing it, consequences for anyone else be damned.
She covered her tracks well, and kept it up for a long time. But while she started off believing whole-heartedly that she was doing what was right, the guilt just started to pile up. While the paladin was sleeping the sleep of the just, she was getting anything but. Eventually the rest of the party started to notice her cracking up, and it all came out in the open when she tearfully confessed(in a church of the god she had come to believe in but whose tenets she could not find the faith to truly follow) everything she had done and why to the paladin she had turned into a sort of idol. He was horrified by what had been done for his sake and in his name, and saddened by who had done it. The wizard is full-on weeping at this point, not even daring to ask for the forgiveness she believes she doesn't deserve. The paladin(AND THE PLAYER) is shedding Manly Tears as he hugs her, forgives her without any hesitation, and then gently places her under arrest. THE DAMN GM IS TEARING UP AT THIS POINT.
The party is shocked when they learn the details in-character, and a good chunk of the campaign after that was dedicated towards the wizard's trial(with the paladin and most of the party serving on her defense) and her long and arduous parole(under the paladin's watchful eye) and struggle towards redemption. She eventually made it to NG.
The paladin and wizard were married by the end of the campaign, but that was an even longer and bumpier road.