Roleplaying a Memorable Paladin, Not as a Restrictive / Troublesome Class but as a Great PC?


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mechaPoet wrote:

I love paladins, and I think the exemplary posts like the ones in the OP are excellent starting points for thinking about how you can play a paladin, and their rich narrative power. I've never seen examples given for other classes that are as inspiring, and I think it's because the class's abilities fuse mechanics and narrative (i.e. crunch and fluff) in an inseparable way that most other classes can't deliver. This isn't a good or bad thing either way, I think, but it does give the paladin a stronger out-of-the-box sense of identity, and so the variations from character to character can dive deeper, having started from a "deeper" point of initial character development, so to speak.

There is something that bothers me about the way paladins are discussed, though. Maybe "bothers" isn't the right word, but it is a trend I've noticed. I feel like when people talk about paladins, people tend to default to assuming paladins, even in the abstract, are men, more than other classes. I've rarely seen people talk about non-male paladins when discussing paladins generally (although I have seen paladins talked about generally with a male assumption, and you can see that in some of the posts in this thread). And I've never seen any of these great paladin stories/examples with non-male paladins. I can think of different reasons why this might be the case, so what I'm interested in is if anyone else has noticed that paladins are assumed male more than other classes? Maybe I'm just seeing it more strongly because I like paladins a lot but never play male paladins, and so conceptually it's more jarring? What do y'all think?

I think I've seen what you're talking about in some communities. I think my view may be a bit distorted since all of my paladins are fairly androgynous-to-outright-feminine dudes and most of my favorite paladin NPCs seem to tend towards female.

Wrath of the Righteous spoiler:
Irabeth Tirabade is awesome. This cannot be stressed enough.

Part of it might be that the vast majority of the knight-in-shining-armor types that get conflated with paladins have been traditionally male, with some very notable exceptions. I get a different vibe from modern paladin depictions though. Things feel more balanced.

Seelah and Alhandra pulling iconic paladin duty for their respective games haven't hurt either. :)

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Elghinn Lightbringer wrote:
mechaPoet wrote:
...I feel like when people talk about paladins, people tend to default to assuming paladins, even in the abstract, are men, more than other classes. I've rarely seen people talk about non-male paladins when discussing paladins generally (although I have seen paladins talked about generally with a male assumption, and you can see that in some of the posts in this thread). And I've never seen any of these great paladin stories/examples with non-male paladins. I can think of different reasons why this might be the case, so what I'm interested in is if anyone else has noticed that paladins are assumed male more than other classes? Maybe I'm just seeing it more strongly because I like paladins a lot but never play male paladins, and so conceptually it's more jarring? What do y'all think?

I think that has to do with the default of the English language or typically using the masculine form of words. Remember, the iconic paladin is a female. That said, I've never played a female paladin, but have played female characters before. One of my old group members played the sister of my first paladin character. She was essentially a paladin too, more of a homebrew class based on the old Solamnic Knight of the Rose from Dragonlance, but was a female nonetheless.

I tend to talk about classes in the masculine, but that's because I'm a guy. If a particular character is of a specific gender, then I use the proper gender words. While I tend to view paladins as males (because I am one - a male not a paladin, though being a paladin would be cool) I have always believed in the whole girls can do what guys can do, more or less.

I agree with you that our language tends to assume that male is default (and therefore female is variant). I can think of numerous reasons why any class in Pathfinder might be discussed with a male assumption, but that doesn't answer my question. Do you feel that paladins, more than other classes, are talked about and portrayed as male (at least on RPG messageboards)?


Haven't really noticed one way or the other, as I don't tend to check paladin threads as they are usually paladin hate ones. SO I just avoid them. I think, however, that paladins are likely referred to in the masculine more than the feminine. Whether that is more than other classes, I wouldn't know.

Sovereign Court

In my younger days, I had a hard time playing a paladin. Through high school and college I (me the gamer) was definitely chaotic good. I tried, but just couldn't get on board with the mentality needed to play someone so devoted to good and law. As I've gotten older, I've drifted a wee bit away from my chaotic side and I've embraced playing a paladin.

At some point in the last year or so I fell in love again and I realized that being a paladin is not unlike those first few weeks/months of being in love when the other person can do absolutely no wrong. That's how a paladin is for goodness and law and their god - they are so sure of that feeling that it gives them their powers and drives them to strike out in the world and do good.

There's certain situations in those early months that are cut-and-dry: you would never hurt the person you loved intentionally, you wouldn't lie to them, and you are horrified about the thought of leaving them. In the same way there are certain things about being a paladin that are cut-and-dry: you protect the innocent at all costs, have a burning desire to fight demons and undead, and you uphold your god's beliefs to the best of your ability.

In the same way, there are certain situations that can be a grey area: You might fudge the truth a wee bit about your new love's weight or looks, or you might find out that they like things you don't. That's cool, but are best worked out after discussing them. In the same way, a paladin is best when adventuring with a group but needs to discuss things with them. I.E. - I won't torture anyone, I'm not going to turn a blind eye to evil things you do, but I might wade into a grey area if it's for the greater good and there's no other way. I'm going to be steadfast about certain things but if we're in a foreign land I need to best uphold their laws as well as my god's laws.

I was pretty happy when I found out that Pathfinder dropped one of the A's of a paladin's MAD, specifically wisdom. I have a halfling shining knight paladin in PFS with a wisdom of 8 and no ranks of sense motive and only a few ranks of perception. He cheerfully fights evil and tells his party members that he won't do bad things, but sometimes Pathfinders have to and it's rare when there's someone in the party that can't bluff him.

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That's fair. I usually stay away from all the "Should my paladin have fallen?" and "My character just can't get along with the paladin!" threads myself, since I've read enough that I've formed my own opinion on how to integrate paladins into games and don't feel the need to get involved with others' specific games. Thanks for your input, even if you don't know. :)

Sovereign Court

Also, when it comes to stories about fallen paladins, Aribeth from Neverwinter is a pretty good one, especially if you play all the way through the Hordes of the Underdark expansion.


mechaPoet wrote:
That's fair. I usually stay away from all the "Should my paladin have fallen?" and "My character just can't get along with the paladin!" threads myself, since I've read enough that I've formed my own opinion on how to integrate paladins into games and don't feel the need to get involved with others' specific games. Thanks for your input, even if you don't know. :)

Sure! Had to be honest, like a paladin. :D

I formed my opinions on paladins long ago. I've played D&D/AD&D/2E/3.5E/Pathfinder fro over 30 years, and its pretty hard to sway me on my opinion on what paladins are or aren't. They're the shining ideal like they are supposed to be, but they aren't perfect, but they are striving to be.

I'm glad to see this thread is shaping out to be a good one in favor of the much maligned paladin.

Dark Archive

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One of my favorite, more remembered and tragic, example of a fallen paladin is that of Arthas Menethil from the World of Warcraft. Him being the Crown Prince of Lordaeron and Knight of the Silver Hand, the son of King Terenas Menethil II and heir to the throne who would... yet would became one of the most powerful and evil beings Azeroth would ever know.

The one I feel most towards though is the gifted sorceress Jaina Proudmoore, Arthas' lover and ally until he allowed his thirst for revenge to consider and carry out slaughtering a village so that the demon he was chasing wouldn't gain control of the people there. A woman who had to watch as the man she loved turned away from the Light, take up a cursed blade, kill his father, destroy his kingdom, and become the Lich King. One how had to face/put aside both her own sorrow and her anger towards the Horde, seeking to establish a harmonious city where all races could life together peacefully... yet betrayed time and again.


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I just have to chime in on this one! I love seeing the paladin love! Paladin through and through here. My class at heart speaking from a police officer and SWAT cop I can't help but see the paladin code in my life.

I honestly think people forget what they are seeing when they see a paladin in Golarion or any other setting.

They are seeing an individual that is lawful and good and is willing to sacrifice himself yes. All of that is true.

But they forget that he is being empowered to do good works by a GOD! He has been given the power to literally see evil and smite it. He is a light of safety. Any and all who see him know they are safe in his presence lest they have evil in their hearts.

He is literally fearless. By divine grace his ability to feel fear has been removed because he is expected to stand when others run and run towards the sounds of violence when others are running away.

His code is his greatest strength not his greatest weakness. This is the problem when you look at mechanics over the meat and bones of a character. He is not his BAB or his ability scores or class name. He is a living breathing creature that has bound himself willingly to a strict code that others couldn't hope to maintain.

I am about to play a paladin again in Wrath of the Righteous and here is my paladin's prayer. He worships 3 Gods equally.

Ragathiel bestow in me the Courage to Stand against the impossible.
Iomedae vest my Honor to resist all forms of corruption.
Sarenrae grant me the Wisdom to pierce the veil of darkness.

In my faith I gain the Conviction to stand each time I shall fall;
The Temperance to redeem or strike with absolution;
And the ability to see the Truth in all things.

Never shall innocent blood be shed, yet the blood of the wicked shall flow like a river.
I will swell the ranks of the faithful. We will be the hammer the word and the will of The Three.
I will destroy all that which is evil so that which is good may flourish.

(Edit: Yes I did steal from Boondock Saints for my prayer. I see the McManis brothers as paladins!)

I cant wait to read more amazing paladin stories!


Oh, my paladin's origin is posted in the Wrath boards if anyone would like to read it. It is very long but there was a ton of effort put into it. If anyone takes the time I hope you enjoy it!

A Righteous Path

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This is an interesting find, an article titled How to Play an Effective Paladin, which seems about right from what I can see.

Dark Archive

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Eltacolibre wrote:

It's more like people seems to think that playing a LG is against the fun of the game...which isn't true.

Anyway instead of hearing me rant about it...someone did it better:

Where have all the Lawful Good ones gone?

I would take that video seriously, but the guy makes more demeaning generalizations about Chaotic characters than every Paladin Lawful Stupid meme I've ever seen combined. There's a valid point if you really dig through it, but it was a really aggravating excavation for me.

One interesting read for aspiring Paladins is The Powder Keg of Justice. Really shows off an interesting take on the Code.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
JonathonWilder wrote:

One of my favorite, more remembered and tragic, example of a fallen paladin is that of Arthas Menethil from the World of Warcraft. Him being the Crown Prince of Lordaeron and Knight of the Silver Hand, the son of King Terenas Menethil II and heir to the throne who would... yet would became one of the most powerful and evil beings Azeroth would ever know.

The one I feel most towards though is the gifted sorceress Jaina Proudmoore, Arthas' lover and ally until he allowed his thirst for revenge to consider and carry out slaughtering a village so that the demon he was chasing wouldn't gain control of the people there. A woman who had to watch as the man she loved turned away from the Light, take up a cursed blade, kill his father, destroy his kingdom, and become the Lich King. One how had to face/put aside both her own sorrow and her anger towards the Horde, seeking to establish a harmonious city where all races could life together peacefully... yet betrayed time and again.

She's got a novel on her out now. And she's made an evolution of her own. She's not that peace seeking mage we once knew anymore, but the destruction of your city will do that to you.

Dark Archive

I actually have a set of twins, one is a Paladin and the other is an Antipaladin (I used Fire Mountain's Lord of Darkness archtype on her, so she's a LE antipaldin) who both are Hellknights in the Order of the Godclaw. Which means crazy as it is, they can work together. (Even if I just made the antipaladin a LE fighter, it would still be okay because one of the official by Paizo leaders of the Order of the Godclaw is a paladin, and the other is a LE fighter) Because while the paladin sister is overall good, enforcing the law is the most important to the Godclaw. While the antipaladin is overall evil, enforcing the law is the most important to the Godclaw.

Granted, they are NPCs but I mention them because I would love to play a Paladin who was a Hellknight with the Order of the Godclaw. I totally agree with how Paizo wants to forget that silly Paladins of Asmodeus article, but... a Paladin of the Godclaw? She's not a paladin of Asmodeus any more than she's a paladin of Sarenae.... no... she's a paladin of the Law representing ALL of the Lawful gods. That very much intrigues me. Then take the Holy Vindicator prestige class for the stigmata powers...


mechaPoet wrote:
I agree with you that our language tends to assume that male is default (and therefore female is variant). I can think of numerous reasons why any class in Pathfinder might be discussed with a male assumption, but that doesn't answer my question. Do you feel that paladins, more than other classes, are talked about and portrayed as male (at least on RPG messageboards)?

Yes - and it's almost subconscious, because there's this "paladin = Knights of the Round Table" conception. It's not entirely unfair, as the term "paladin" originally referred to Charlemagne's twelve retainers; but it colours thinking. Beyond gender, though, it also influences the thinking about paladins as a "should be portrayed."

Both 1e (Unearthed Arcana, making paladin a cavalier subclass rather than a fighter subclass) and 2e (Complete Paladin's Handbook) jumped into this portrayal with paladin zeal.

1e cavaliers had ethos restrictions including having to buy masterwork EVERYTHING, pick the most expensive options when given a choice, and upgrade armour according to its base type toward full plate (even if this meant abandoning VERY good magic armour.)

CPalH paladins had cleanliness (even to the point of "Ahem, there's SAND on my boots!") as an ethos requirement, and the entire book practically shoehorned you into reading Le Morte d'Arthur and taking notes.

And all of this was on top of an oath of charity, tithing, intolerance of evil AND "dirty tactics" (ie, almost an obligation to be lawful stupid,) and a hard limit on magic items (1 armour, 1 shield, 4 weapons not counting ammo, and 4 anything else - not negotiable.) We won't even speak of falling, and how it left you playing a 17 Charisma human fighter without the fighter's only class feature...

----

So you can sorta see where paladins got this reputation as stick-in-the-mud (and will be spending the non-tithed part of the bounty buying Turtle Wax lest the mud get stuck) lawful stupid NOT CAN HAVE FUN GUYS characters.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Elghinn Lightbringer wrote:
I never understood why there is such a hate for paladins. They are powerful, yes, but they are also the ones who are meant to throw themselves in harms way, to do all they can to ensure the good for all, protect life, help the innocent, and ensure that goodness in the world survives. My groups have never had an issue with paladins (only with who might be playing them, as they might not be up to the challenge).

It's not so hard really. We live in more cynical times, and we live in a culture that preaches self-indulgence. We find the concept of Boy Scout heroes like Clark Kent to be rather silly. Or their presence holds up a brutal mirror into what we've become, and challenges the ways we now validate ourselves.

So it's not surprising that we look for the flaw, the thing that will expose these four-color heroes for the falsities we feel they must be.


LazarX wrote:
Elghinn Lightbringer wrote:
I never understood why there is such a hate for paladins. They are powerful, yes, but they are also the ones who are meant to throw themselves in harms way, to do all they can to ensure the good for all, protect life, help the innocent, and ensure that goodness in the world survives. My groups have never had an issue with paladins (only with who might be playing them, as they might not be up to the challenge).

It's not so hard really. We live in more cynical times, and we live in a culture that preaches self-indulgence. We find the concept of Boy Scout heroes like Clark Kent to be rather silly. Or their presence holds up a brutal mirror into what we've become, and challenges the ways we now validate ourselves.

So it's not surprising that we look for the flaw, the thing that will expose these four-color heroes for the falsities we feel they must be.

History pretty much proves people weren't more moralistic and nice to each other in the past, your falling into the trap of every generation of panicking about the morality of youth whilst wearing rose tinted spectacles about what went on with past generations. Not even the knights of the round table came close to being as inhumanily good as a d&d paladin is meant to be.

Grand Lodge

Wind Chime wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Elghinn Lightbringer wrote:
I never understood why there is such a hate for paladins. They are powerful, yes, but they are also the ones who are meant to throw themselves in harms way, to do all they can to ensure the good for all, protect life, help the innocent, and ensure that goodness in the world survives. My groups have never had an issue with paladins (only with who might be playing them, as they might not be up to the challenge).

It's not so hard really. We live in more cynical times, and we live in a culture that preaches self-indulgence. We find the concept of Boy Scout heroes like Clark Kent to be rather silly. Or their presence holds up a brutal mirror into what we've become, and challenges the ways we now validate ourselves.

So it's not surprising that we look for the flaw, the thing that will expose these four-color heroes for the falsities we feel they must be.

History pretty much proves people weren't more moralistic and nice to each other in the past, your falling into the trap of every generation of panicking about the morality of youth whilst wearing rose tinted spectacles about what went on with past generations. Not even the knights of the round table came close to being as inhumanily good as a d&d paladin is meant to be.

Lancelot especially considering it was his actions which ultimaty ended Arthur's kingdom. In modern media (tv), I believe a good example of a paladin would be Arturia, also known as Saber, in the Fate/Zero series. While trying to do what is right, and the only way to get her to do something she wouldn't do was essentially force her perform the task. (I know I brought up anime, but it's really the only television I watch more than an hour of a week, so I apologize.)


Wind Chime wrote:
History pretty much proves people weren't more moralistic and nice to each other in the past, your falling into the trap of every generation of panicking about the morality of youth whilst wearing rose tinted spectacles about what went on with past generations.

Be careful of 'falling into the trap' of thinking that society never changes... there's a substantial body of evidence suggesting that people on all levels - but particularly those with more significant authority - have never been worse at policing or moderating their own behavior. My wife and I work with kids in different capacities, and the overall change in outlook and behavior even just in the last ten years is pretty stunning.

Dark Archive

LazarX wrote:
She's got a novel on her out now. And she's made an evolution of her own. She's not that peace seeking mage we once knew anymore, but the destruction of your city will do that to you.

Which is sad, more tragic then even Arthas perhaps, that Azeroth has essentially broken the one woman who was perhaps the greatest hope for those seeking peace. It both frustrates and disappoints me the writers didn't allow Jaina to keep her inner light and belief.

Jaina's Hope

This for me was one of the greatest scenes in WoW, one that I wish I could see for myself if their was a way of playing through past scenes. Yet instead of building on this, the writers squander what could have been and have Jaina lose what set her apart.

Dark Archive

Rosc wrote:
One interesting read for aspiring Paladins is The Powder Keg of Justice. Really shows off an interesting take on the Code.

That story is actually apart of my original post.


LazarX wrote:
Elghinn Lightbringer wrote:
I never understood why there is such a hate for paladins. They are powerful, yes, but they are also the ones who are meant to throw themselves in harms way, to do all they can to ensure the good for all, protect life, help the innocent, and ensure that goodness in the world survives. My groups have never had an issue with paladins (only with who might be playing them, as they might not be up to the challenge).

It's not so hard really. We live in more cynical times, and we live in a culture that preaches self-indulgence. We find the concept of Boy Scout heroes like Clark Kent to be rather silly. Or their presence holds up a brutal mirror into what we've become, and challenges the ways we now validate ourselves.

So it's not surprising that we look for the flaw, the thing that will expose these four-color heroes for the falsities we feel they must be.

And that's why paladin's are so much more needed today. Both in PF and the real world. Too much negativity, the wrong things are seen as good, etc. We are becoming a self-indulgent, debased society. But we're talking about RPing, so back to that.


Elghinn Lightbringer wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Elghinn Lightbringer wrote:
I never understood why there is such a hate for paladins. They are powerful, yes, but they are also the ones who are meant to throw themselves in harms way, to do all they can to ensure the good for all, protect life, help the innocent, and ensure that goodness in the world survives. My groups have never had an issue with paladins (only with who might be playing them, as they might not be up to the challenge).

It's not so hard really. We live in more cynical times, and we live in a culture that preaches self-indulgence. We find the concept of Boy Scout heroes like Clark Kent to be rather silly. Or their presence holds up a brutal mirror into what we've become, and challenges the ways we now validate ourselves.

So it's not surprising that we look for the flaw, the thing that will expose these four-color heroes for the falsities we feel they must be.

And that's why paladin's are so much more needed today. Both in PF and the real world. Too much negativity, the wrong things are seen as good, etc. We are becoming a self-indulgent, debased society. But we're talking about RPing, so back to that.

We always WERE a self-indulgent, debased society.

Maybe that's why the Paladin concept still has its adherents today.

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I find that I have an interesting relationship to the LG requirement of the paladin, and the code's stipulation about respecting legitimate authority. For instance, how does the ethical half of the alignment spectrum (chaos/law) figure into the capital-G Good of fighting against a status quo of injustice? To fight against and tear down an oppressive social structure is CG, right? But to fight an evil authority that is "illegitimate" seems to be implied by the paladin's code--or at least, it's specifically within their power (without losing their powers, anyway).

Both the CG and LG character oppose corruption. I guess the difference is that the CG character sees an order corrupted by evil and views that evil as inherent in the structure: a Lawful Evil system that can't really be broken down into its component alignment parts, its law and evil as inseparable, related, and self-reinforcing. Whereas the LG character sees value in lawful structure, and seeks only to purge the corrupting evil. Because I tend to classify my own D&D alignment as CG, it's interesting trying to approach the same issues (not that the issues I find important in "real life" often overlap with the issues that are important in a game of Pathfinder) from the point of view as a paladin.

For instance: how does a paladin approach systemic gender inequality? Not really a focus for your average game of Pathfinder, but certainly an issue that it's entirely possible to insert into and deal with in a game.

Dark Archive

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I have nothing against Paladins personally, and believe they offer a lot of RP opportunity, but at the same time I would never play one myself because I come from a distinctly different side of the RP world...the evil PC enthusiests camp. As a representative of a VERY different group then the ones whom have been praising the Paladins in this thread, I thought I'd give my own commentary, to provide a different sort of color to this discussion.

As the guy who's always playing the "token evil PC" in every party, you'd think I'd be a Paladin hater. You think I'd say they "ruin my fun" and "drag my PC down.." Well, I will tell you, as the guy always playing the "token evil PC", I absolutely love having a well-played paladin in the party. Not to troll or torment the Paladin player, but to shake my character out of their comfort zone and provide some unforgettable RP moments. A good, well-played Paladin will be the absolute foil to my LE decadant noble PC. He/she will challenge the way my evil PC thinks and feels purely by being themselves...will make them think...make them question...make them wonder if there is really some value to living as they do. They will make my LE corrupt noble step out of their shell of arrogance, egocentrisim and privlage and, for a breif moment in time, see the world outside of their comfort zone...and dare I say help them build their character and make it something much deeper then it was before. A Paladin in the party turns a mirror to my character's face that shows them not what they usually see...what they want to see...but the ugly, distorted, twisted visage of what they truly are...and such moments I find to be highly enjoyable from an RP and storytelling perspective. Paladins and their interactions with evil PCs like mine are some of the most rewarding to RP as they tend to deepen both my dispicable selfish SOBs and the Paladins, making both of them question their beliefs, their morals(or lack of therefore), and making both of them grow as characters and people..

A well-played Paladin, to a person like me who RPs almost excursively evil characters, isn't a party-mate to be feared or loathed, but cherished above most, if not all others, as the potential for amazing role play they present is unmatched. So to all those Paladin players out their, consider this your personal thank you from the dark side....our cookies may undoubtedly taste better, but without your shining light our black-hearted darkness would be far more boring to role play.


Choose a model for your paladin.....maybe one that you have never done before or seen anyone else try..................how about Sheriff Taylor of Mayberry from the Andy Griffith Show?

Radiant Oath

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
KenderKin wrote:
Choose a model for your paladin.....maybe one that you have never done before or seen anyone else try..................how about Sheriff Taylor of Mayberry from the Andy Griffith Show?

Seconded. My most memorable character, Sir Georg of Redcrosse, was basically St. George as played by ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER. I mostly did it on a lark as the GM established his homeland as the game's equivalent of Austria, and I know of no other Austrian I love more than he. The players LOVED it because it wasn't how they expected a paladin to talk, and later said he was the best paladin they'd ever played with, especially since I didn't get on the case of the kobold-werewolf sorcerer who wore the severed ears of slain enemies on a necklace.

There were plans for him to return in the sequel campaign as a kind of Obi-Wan Kenobi ghost for the next generation of paladins, but it kind of fizzled before it started, which was a real shame.


Takhisis wrote:

I have nothing against Paladins personally, and believe they offer a lot of RP opportunity, but at the same time I would never play one myself because I come from a distinctly different side of the RP world...the evil PC enthusiests camp. As a representative of a VERY different group then the ones whom have been praising the Paladins in this thread, I thought I'd give my own commentary, to provide a different sort of color to this discussion.

As the guy who's always playing the "token evil PC" in every party, you'd think I'd be a Paladin hater. You think I'd say they "ruin my fun" and "drag my PC down.." Well, I will tell you, as the guy always playing the "token evil PC", I absolutely love having a well-played paladin in the party. Not to troll or torment the Paladin player, but to shake my character out of their comfort zone and provide some unforgettable RP moments. A good, well-played Paladin will be the absolute foil to my LE decadant noble PC. He/she will challenge the way my evil PC thinks and feels purely by being themselves...will make them think...make them question...make them wonder if there is really some value to living as they do. They will make my LE corrupt noble step out of their shell of arrogance, egocentrisim and privlage and, for a breif moment in time, see the world outside of their comfort zone...and dare I say help them build their character and make it something much deeper then it was before. A Paladin in the party turns a mirror to my character's face that shows them not what they usually see...what they want to see...but the ugly, distorted, twisted visage of what they truly are...and such moments I find to be highly enjoyable from an RP and storytelling perspective. Paladins and their interactions with evil PCs like mine are some of the most rewarding to RP as they tend to deepen both my dispicable selfish SOBs and the Paladins, making both of them question their beliefs, their morals(or lack of therefore), and making both of them grow as characters and people..

A...

Good to hear we keep the Antipaladins on their toes.


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Incidentally, the best Paladin I have ever seen in fantasy fiction is Michael Carpenter from the Dresden Files. He is, as a friend of his puts him, "Righteous, but not self-righteous."


Yeah, he is a great inspiration. I am not very familiar with the Marvel Comics universe, but I have heard some of Captain America's incarnations were quite good too.

Grand Lodge

Great forum! I have spent most of my gaming years, when I get to play (GM all the time :-( ), as a paladin most often and perhaps a monk, though I have played every standard character at one time or another. What a great class the paladin is if played right. They are a symbol of good, a defender, an avenger and they are not made weaker by the restrictions of the class and alignment, but more interesting. It takes good role-playing to play one right with the correct interactions with the world and the restrictions placed on them. This forum link was sent to me by one of my players, who plays an assimar paladin (nimbus of light paladin) and a human witch, in our current campaign, the Carrion Crown. We near the end and she will be GMing the next campaign, Rise of the Runelords. Finally, I will get to play again. I will be playing an assimar paladin hospitaler and a dwarf monk zen archer. Gotta love the paladins!


The Shaman wrote:
Yeah, he is a great inspiration. I am not very familiar with the Marvel Comics universe, but I have heard some of Captain America's incarnations were quite good too.

The movie iteration is about as Paladin as Paladin can be, especially in Winter Soldier (which is a phenomenal movie regardless of any franchise connections).

Shadow Lodge

I like Captain Carrot Ironfoundersson myself. All he wants is to be a good copper, and for others to embrace lawfulness and compassion for each other. He is so honest that it's at times unclear whether he understands what lying is.

I used to think of Commander Vimes as a paladin, but now I'm pretty sure he's a LG inquisitor (streetwise and fights dirty). Still, a good place to mine for ideas if you're looking for a grittier, grumpier paladin.

"Beating people up in little rooms…he knew where that led. And if you did it for a good reason, you’d do it for a bad one. You couldn’t say ‘We’re the good guys’ and do bad-guy things."

"People know about you, commander. Descendant of a watchman who believed that if a corrupted court will not behead an evil king, then the watchman should do it himself [...] Sam Vimes once arrested (his boss) for treason. And Sam Vimes once arrested a dragon. Sam Vimes stopped a war between nations by arresting two high commands. He's an arresting fellow, Sam Vimes. Sam Vimes killed a werewolf with his bare hands, and carries law with him like a lamp [...] Watchmen across half the continent will say that Sam Vimes is as straight as an arrow, can't be corrupted, won't be turned, never took a bribe..."

mechaPoet wrote:
I've rarely seen people talk about non-male paladins when discussing paladins generally (although I have seen paladins talked about generally with a male assumption, and you can see that in some of the posts in this thread). And I've never seen any of these great paladin stories/examples with non-male paladins.

Let me tell you about Alejandra.

Alejandra started off as a simple fighter, but when her eldest son was sent to his death by an immoral commander, she turned to the church of Sarenrae and became a paladin. She gave up bloodletting and became a sacred shield for innocents and those doing good work in the world.

Her most dramatic act of heroism was dying not once but twice in combat with a demigod of necromancy trying to bring about the apocalypse. Gotta love Breath of Life. But for me her defining moment was when we were fighting a band of insane and bloodthirsty pirates, and they were escaping on their ship. Alejandra, having never dealt lethal damage to a living and thinking creature in the course of the game, used a magical ring to ignite the powder on the ship, killing all those on board. She fell to her knees in sorrow and begged my druid to take the ring from her, for she did not want a thing that could cause such destruction. I had to talk her out of it.


Quote:
The movie iteration is about as Paladin as Paladin can be, especially in Winter Soldier (which is a phenomenal movie regardless of any franchise connections).

I have always enjoyed the scene in the first Captain America movie where, while all of the other recruits are running away, he throws himself on a grenade he assumes to be live, to save those around him from the blast he knew would kill him. It was a test, of course, but I held that up for my son, who was 12 at the time we watched it, as a perfect example of a Paladin (which I had just started playing in our Carrion Crown campaign).

And speaking of female paladins, Feylinn is the aasimar daughter of a Cleric of Iomedae and a Knight of Ozem. She grew up in the court of Mendev, as a diplomat for the queen. When she and her fiancé, a Cavalier who came to Mendev to fight in the Worldwound, were set upon by demons, he was killed while protecting her. She vowed never to be helpless to protect herself, or those she loved, again, and prayed to Iomedae to grant her the strength and wisdom to take up her father's sword in Her name.

On her way to join her father's family in Lastwall, she got sidetracked into Ustalav with the news of an old friend's death. She fell in with a group of adventurers who also knew her old friend, and together they have uncovered a dastardly plot to release the Whispering Tyrant from his prison. Together, they hope to prevent his release. She is the first through a door into the unknown, and comes to the aid of her allies without thought of the risk to herself. She thinks highly of their cleric of Sarenrae, though he follows a different goddess, and hopes to encourage the others of their group to good and lawful behavior by her example. She despairs for one of the elven rangers, though, for he is quick to use any means necessary to accomplish their task, even if it borders on evil. Still, where there is life, there is hope. Their party leaves the relative safety of Caliphas soon, to venture into the forests and mountains in search of the Whispering Way, and Feylinn knows the Light of Iomedae will be needed. She hopes she is strong enough to face what is to come.


I think often it is a communication issue between the person playing the Paladin and the DM running the game.

Sometimes we get either a cultural or historical centric view of a paladin "is".

This is something I generically term a "concept" or an individuals subjective interpretation of "is"....

Often the paladin is subjectively understood through the modern lens of a "cop"

But they can just as easily be subjectively understood as law enforcement in a lawless land "Judge Roy Bean" type.

The problem usually comes in when one person's subjective interpretation meets a totally different understanding of what a paladin "is".....

I have zero problem with how someone wants to understand or what lens they want to view the "is" through

Scarab Sages

A short story I wrote for my Paladin of Iomedae, Sir Gabriel.

Some of the names might mean something, others might not, as this was a home-brew game set in the World Wound prior to the release of Wrath of the Righteous.

I hope you enjoy it.

Sir Gabriel's Practice


The way my paladin-playing friend always put it was that a paladin that breaks the rules for the sake of Good shouldn't fall, because that's where the Good part comes in.

While DnD 5e isn't my favorite system, I do prefer the way it handles paladin: having them take specific oaths that focus on one area of good (fighting evil, protecting the innocent, devotion to a Good god, etc.) that gets rid of all the ambiguity. I've houseruled a similar thing for PF and my players seem to enjoy that more. They can choose a way to run the paladin that never disrupts the group.

Dark Archive

Also note that D&D 5e distinctly allows non-lawful and even non-good Paladins, and while most of the oaths lean heavily towards a good alignment one of them(Vengence) works for a LN or heck, LE or possibly even NE Paladin, and another(Ancients) was practically written for the sole purpose of making the chaotic good Paladin a thing. Of course the Lawful Good Paladin is still very much catered to, as it should be, and has it's own oath, and the fluff of the Paladin class makes it so even -evil- Paladins are devoted to fighting the forces of evil, but just use -corrupt- means to do so....unless of course they are Oathbreakers, which are the 5e equivalent of Anti-Paladins/Blackguards and are Paladins who break their oath and devote themselves to serving evil rather then fighting against it.

5e's system for Paladins, while nice in some ways, is RADICALLY different from the way they where handled in any previous edition, including PF. While I think it has some merit o it, I know a lot of people who are uncomfortable with it, especially since it not only allows for, but some say encourages, non-good Paladins as the "best" oaths from a mechanical standpoint happen to be Vengeance(Oath to fight evil "by any means necessary") and Oathbreaker(anti-Paladin/Blackguard). So for a lot of people I know, the fact that there are -options- for non-good Paladis, and powerful ones at that, makes them uncomfortable with the 5e version of the class since they feel it's moving away from what a Paladin -is-....and to a large extent I agree. While I am fine with non-good and chaotic good characters with Paladin-like abilities, I feel they should be separate classes, with separate names. 3.5e handled this particularly well for "evil paladins" at least with the Blackguard prestige class(which, IMO, I wish would be ported to pathfinder). It was not a flawless execution, mind you, but it allowed for "evil paladins" who where, in fact, not Paladins, and unlike the Anti-Paladin of pathfinder catered to lawful and neutral evil as well as chaotic evil, which is something else I think is missing in PF...the LE "dark knight" kind of class that in 3.5e was filled by the Blackguard.

To me, Lawful Good is at the core of what makes a Paladin a Paladin. A Paladin is not lawful good because he is a Paladin, but rather he is a Paladin because he is lawful good. Thats how I see it anyway, and in my mind Paladins of non LG alignments should be their own classes with their own distinct names and mechanics that exemplify that particular alignment. "alignment paragon" type classes, you could call them...with the Paladin being the "paragon" of Lawful Good. Under this model the chaotic good paragon class may wind up being more rogue-ish or even bard-like as appose to the decidedly martial Paladin, getting a wide variety of skills and trickier spells along with their basic divine abilities like healing. Heck, some of these "paragon classes" may even stray so far from the Paladin is that they are fullcasters....I could, for example, see the Lawful Evil paragon class as a fullcaster with strong social skills and a focus on minions(planar binding/fiend binding, summoning magic, maybe even some necromancy?) and enchantment magic.(Dominate Person and friends)

That, to me, would be the best way to handle the whole "paladins of all alignments" idea, as appose to trying to make a class that was built to act as a paragon of lawful good bend to the ethos of other alignments. Thats just me, though...


Thought I'd post this, as Takhisis reminded me of the old Plethora of Paladin's conversion I, Bardess (another paladin lover), and my buddy Oceanshieldwolf did a while back.

Plethora of Paladin's PF Conversion

While I favor LG paladins, I agree, each alignment should have their own individual types. And with some of the new ACG hybrids out, I may go back and do some tweaking to these conversion to make them even more unique, instead of just using the paladin chassis for all of them. For example, the Warpriest would be a great chassis for the Lyan (LN). Anyways, back the LG paladins.

Sovereign Court

Anyone remember the AD&D supplement that had "paladins" of a different alignment?

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder already has options for giving Paladins more specific codes (via the deity specific codes) or oaths (archetypes such as the Oath of Charity or even Oath of Vengeance). I personally like these because it adds a bit of variation to paladin morality - how they're likely to respond in a grey area, and which quests they will pursue most enthusiastically.

Liberty's Edge

5 people marked this as a favorite.

If you want to play a paladin, absolutely required reading is Elizabeth Moon's The Deed of Paksenarrion. (which also brings the female part in.)

Kryzbyn wrote:
Play a female paladin and do something story-worthy to share with us :P

Done!

This is back in 3.5, so....

I had planned the character to be a fighter/sorcerer, and had 4 levels of fighter. We were going against a creature that had DR 10/magic, and we had no magic weapons. With a strength of 16, strongest in the party, even with a longsword, I couldn't hit it, and it had taken out our mage and priest first. In character, I said:

"Heironeous, we're going to die. I need help. Help us, and I will swear myself to your service."

Dice are rolled. 20. Confirmation roll: 20. It takes some damage. It misses me.

20. Confirmation 20. It takes more damage. It misses me again.

20. Confirmation 20. The GM says to me, "What's your Charisma again?" I tell him: 16.

"There's a burst of light from your sword, and a thunderclap, as you cleave through its neck and it dies."

When we get back to the city we reside in, I go to the temple of Heironeous, find a priest, tell him what happened, and ask what my next step is.

"You need to talk to one of our trainers, the Paladin Master."

------

Later in that campaign, I:

  • offered myself to a dying god, which revitalized him (and got my paladin access to the entire Good domain for spells)
  • saved a child who turned out to be the son of the spirit of the river of the city, and brought in his kidnapper alive
  • made a LOT of money and turned most of it into helping the poorer parts of the city
  • nearly-one-man took out an elder wyrm red dragon while the others (including a sorcerer and two priests) locked down the vampire
  • and then in the climactic battle of the campaign proceeded to take down a balor singlehandedly while the others dealt with his minions.

And everyone said my character was basically an example to follow, one of the characters ending up changing alignment from CN to CG along the way.


The Human Diversion wrote:
Anyone remember the AD&D supplement that had "paladins" of a different alignment?

Dragon Magazine #106, page 47. Takes time to download.


Chuck Norris as Walker Texas Paladin.....


Split the Alignment requirement.

Paladin be Good = how he goes about it does not matter, just as long as it is for the greater good.

Paladin be Lawful = how he goes about it does not matter, just as long as it is for the Code and Laws that he has agreed to to become a paladin. As long as he follows his code, he can even slip to neutral or evil ... but if he breaks his vows and code, he looses the paladin class.

Both of these option works really well for a paladin.

Sovereign Court

If you've ever seen A Certain Magical Index - or the spinoff anime A Certain Scientific Railgun - I think that Toma (main character in the former - secondary character in the latter) is a good example of an interesting paladin. (Not in powers - but in outlook.)


I have a belief about Paladins who act in a chaotic (Non-Lawful). Paladin of Freedom is a good take on the Chaotic Good Paladin option. So my former DM used to have a running method if the Paladin continued to act in a non-lawful but good way, he would eventually skip NG and make them respec into the Paladin of Freedom variant from Unearthed Arcana.

He also had a thing about their Patron Gods trading them off like Baseball cards. If the LG god saw the paladin acting in a chaotic way, but still adhering to good and wouldn't toe the line he would simply offer him to a CG god as a servant possibly in exchange for one of his Paladins so that the greater good was always supported but they got ride of the bad influences on their LG ranks.

Shadow Lodge

Mephron wrote:

I had planned the character to be a fighter/sorcerer, and had 4 levels of fighter. We were going against a creature that had DR 10/magic, and we had no magic weapons. With a strength of 16, strongest in the party, even with a longsword, I couldn't hit it, and it had taken out our mage and priest first. In character, I said:

"Heironeous, we're going to die. I need help. Help us, and I will swear myself to your service."

Dice are rolled. 20. Confirmation roll: 20. It takes some damage. It misses me.

20. Confirmation 20. It takes more damage. It misses me again.

20. Confirmation 20. The GM says to me, "What's your Charisma again?" I tell him: 16.

"There's a burst of light from your sword, and a thunderclap, as you cleave through its neck and it dies."

When we get back to the city we reside in, I go to the temple of Heironeous, find a priest, tell him what happened, and ask what my next step is.

"You need to talk to one of our trainers, the Paladin Master."

That's a great origin story. The dice have spoken.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I really miss the 3.5 paladins of all allignments.

Paladin of Honor, Paladin of Freedom, Paladin of Tyranny, and Paladin of Slaughter.

Paladin of Tyranny was the most fun to play, and it would fit Asmodeus paladins and Hellknights so well.

Grand Lodge

I keep waiting for alternate alignment Paladins.

All we have is the Antipaladin.

Redeemer, and Iroran Paladin at least alter the Code of Conduct.

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