I still find it funny how the "but it influences people!" crowd never seem to inude themselves in their claims... Nope. It's always everyone else who is too stupid to separate fantasy from reality. "Porn influences people negatively... Not me, because I'm Oh-So-Enlightned, but everyone else, because they are obviously not nearly as smart as my brilliant self!".
Can we stop assuming that people are stupid? They aren't. Most of them might be uncultured, but they aren't stupid. 99% of the world can (and does) tell the difference between fantasy and reality.
I'm so f!@@ing tired of this holier-than-thou atittude...Saying porn causes body image issues and sets unrealistic expectations about sex is like saying The Matrix sets unrealistic expectations for learning kung fu and makes young martial artists feel bad about themselves because they don't look like Hollywood stars and can't dodge bullets!
And if are going to mention Japan, let's remember that even though rape is a very common theme in Japanese pornography, it's one of the nations with the lowest number of actual occurences of the crime in the world.
I posted a peer-reviewed scientific paper that disagrees with you on this very topic in this very thread.
Do you have any thing to backup your claims or is it just a gut feeling?
Tell me... What do you think is more likely? That those people were (consciously or not) speaking what matches their spiritual beliefs and whatxthey thought the scientists wanted to hear... Or that they actually measured how much satisfaction they felt and how judgemental their partners were?
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I don't see anything wrong with rape fantasies. Humans fantasize about all sorts of thing that we would hate to experience IRL. Just see how many people are excited about the idea of a zombie apocalypse. I doubt any significant number of them would actually enjoy losing their families and friends to undead cannibals..I suspect the main appeal is the total destruction of civil authority. You can pretty much do whatever you want if you're strong enough, despite all the negative connotations of the situation, it's a pretty strong power fantasy. In fact many of the antagonists, and quite a few of the protagonists are people who lose themselves into that fantasy.
some would argue that power fantasies are destructive and negative by design.
"Bah. My gut feelings and anecdotes refute your peer-reviewed science."Tell me... What do you think is more likely? That those people were (consciously or not) speaking what matches their spiritual beliefs and whatxthey thought the scientists wanted to hear... Or that they actually measured how much satisfaction they felt and how judgemental their partners were?I still find it funny how the "but it influences people!" crowd never seem to inude themselves in their claims... Nope. It's always everyone else who is too stupid to separate fantasy from reality. "Porn influences people negatively... Not me, because I'm Oh-So-Enlightned, but everyone else, because they are obviously not nearly as smart as my brilliant self!".
Can we stop assuming that people are stupid? They aren't. Most of them might be uncultured, but they aren't stupid. 99% of the world can (and does) tell the difference between fantasy and reality.
I'm so f!@@ing tired of this holier-than-thou atittude...Saying porn causes body image issues and sets unrealistic expectations about sex is like saying The Matrix sets unrealistic expectations for learning kung fu and makes young martial artists feel bad about themselves because they don't look like Hollywood stars and can't dodge bullets!
And if are going to mention Japan, let's remember that even though rape is a very common theme in Japanese pornography, it's one of the nations with the lowest number of actual occurences of the crime in the world.
I posted a peer-reviewed scientific paper that disagrees with you on this very topic in this very thread.
Do you have any thing to backup your claims or is it just a gut feeling?
I didn;'t bother to read the study in question, but unless they did some brainwave scans when people were watching porn, there is most likely enough bias that any results they got are junk. Plenty of other studies have found that surveys of how people feel are almost never honest and accurate when the thing in question is controversial.
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And yet... The japanese are still HUMANS, so for some odd reason they like sex and like pictures of sex. Who knew, right?
Indeed, porn does not cause rape. Nor does violent movies cause violent crime. The "monkey see, monkey do" crowd has very little going for it these days. The expansion of the internet into various areas of the US has correlated with falling sexual crime statistics in said areas. Interestingly enough, there is a study that says that teenagers and young adults are quite a lot safer during their sexual debuts since the internet came. It is not so odd either. Before the internet, people were put in the situation that rl interaction was needed to begin experimenting. After, they have had many more options. It also seems to be the case that watching a violent movie, one about violent sex, or the like, actually dampens the person's impulse to do such things themselves.
I think there is some truth to the "monkey see, monkey do" theory, but it doesn't apply to movies/books/etc. Rather it applies to actual human interactions.
When people think about movies/books/etc intellectually, they seem to have a harder time separating them from real world experiences than our brain has in separating them in our own lives (sounds like an odd distinction but stay with me).
This has been shown to a degree with infants. If you put an infant in the care of someone who speaks a language, the infant starts to learn it. If you put the infant in front of a TV with someone speaking a different language, they learn very little, if any, of that language. Video education can work with older children, but it requires a bit of brain development first.
Our brain is better at recognizing these false images and sorting between real and fantasy better than we give it credit. At the same time, we are heavily influenced by those around us, so if you aren't prepared to give the brain its due credit it's very easy to come to the conclusion that movies/books/etc should influence the same as interactions with people in our daily lives.
I don't disagree with you, just pointing out my theory on how that theory develops.
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It wasn't a documentary:(
But what about The Dukes of Hazard!
My god man! The cars I've wrecked trying to jump that ravine!
But I suspect the peer reviewed study is more likely to take that into account than anecdotes from random teens.
But there's not much they can do for it. Its simply a limitation on the social sciences that make the social fine but when they add science they prevaricate.
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It wasn't a documentary:(
But what about The Dukes of Hazard!
My god man! The cars I've wrecked trying to jump that ravine!
my love for that show may be why my mom didn't let me take drivers ed.
...
Stupid mom.
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It wasn't a documentary:(
But what about The Dukes of Hazard!
My god man! The cars I've wrecked trying to jump that ravine!
my love for that show may be why my mom didn't let me take drivers ed.
...
Stupid mom.
we didn't have the same mom did we? Didn't get my license until I was 24!
Yes there are barns in town, this is cow country after all :-)
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But I suspect the peer reviewed study is more likely to take that into account than anecdotes from random teens.But there's not much they can do for it. Its simply a limitation on the social sciences that make the social fine but when they add science they prevaricate.
No, but when 60% of female respondents between 16 and 20 say that their partners expect them to perform acts they don't want to and that those partners openly admit that they desire to perform those acts because they saw it in porn, and that those female respondents ultimately capitulate to those requests, then it is reasonable to conclude that porn is adversely affecting the self worth of those females.
That is all true whether you believe in science or not.
But I suspect the peer reviewed study is more likely to take that into account than anecdotes from random teens.But there's not much they can do for it. Its simply a limitation on the social sciences that make the social fine but when they add science they prevaricate.No, but when 60% of female respondents between 16 and 20 say that their partners expect them to perform acts they don't want to and that those partners openly admit that they desire to perform those acts because they saw it in porn, and that those female respondents ultimately capitulate to those requests, then it is reasonable to conclude that porn is adversely affecting the self worth of those females.
That is all true whether you believed in science or not.
that is a rather long and winding road to that conclusion, and one that is easily turned on its head-I'm sure a similar number of male respondents would not want to take their partner to a restaurant they can't afford that their partner saw got a good review on yelp, so yelp is adversely affecting the fiscal self esteem of those men.
This is missionary philosophy at its most insidious.
But I suspect the peer reviewed study is more likely to take that into account than anecdotes from random teens.But there's not much they can do for it. Its simply a limitation on the social sciences that make the social fine but when they add science they prevaricate.No, but when 60% of female respondents between 16 and 20 say that their partners expect them to perform acts they don't want to and that those partners openly admit that they desire to perform those acts because they saw it in porn, and that those female respondents ultimately capitulate to those requests, then it is reasonable to conclude that porn is adversely affecting the self worth of those females.
That is all true whether you believed in science or not.
that is a rather long and winding road to that conclusion, and one that is easily turned on its head-I'm sure a similar number of male respondents would not want to take their partner to a restaurant they can't afford that their partner saw got a good review on yelp, so yelp is adversely affecting the fiscal self esteem of those men.
Just because someone saw something in porn that they want to try doesn't mean their partner should immediately acquiesce, that they themselves are a bad partner for being curious, or that porn should be punished for providing them the idea. This is missionary philosophy at its most insidious.
This statement is the definition of male privilege. "Her not wanting to take it in three holes and the face is exactly the same as you not wanting to spend $100 on dinner."
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* Cues up bad seventies funk-jazz for Freehold.However, I don't think anyone over... I dunno... 14~15 years believes that sex is like porn...Saying porn causes body image issues and sets unrealistic expectations about sex is like saying The Matrix sets unrealistic expectations for learning kung fu and makes young martial artists feel bad about themselves because they don't look like Hollywood stars and can't dodge bullets!Just touching on this point.
I'm not disagreeing with your larger point, but mainstream pornography is part of a much larger set of societal influences that cause body image issues. It's not the main culprit - I'd not even say top five - but it's still a part of how society can influence body image.
I'm speaking only about U.S. culture, by the way; I know we have an international community here, and I don't want to speak for other parts of the world. :)
I am an adult, dammit!
Do you deliver late-night?
...
Asking for a friend...
I do indeed work the night shift.
No, no.
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It would be, if I didn't state that one DOES NOT HAVE TO ACQUIESCE TO EVERY REQUEST MADE OF THEM FOR INTIMATES in the post you replied to.
bolder and enlarged in case you missed it.
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* Cues up bad seventies funk-jazz for Freehold.However, I don't think anyone over... I dunno... 14~15 years believes that sex is like porn...Saying porn causes body image issues and sets unrealistic expectations about sex is like saying The Matrix sets unrealistic expectations for learning kung fu and makes young martial artists feel bad about themselves because they don't look like Hollywood stars and can't dodge bullets!Just touching on this point.
I'm not disagreeing with your larger point, but mainstream pornography is part of a much larger set of societal influences that cause body image issues. It's not the main culprit - I'd not even say top five - but it's still a part of how society can influence body image.
I'm speaking only about U.S. culture, by the way; I know we have an international community here, and I don't want to speak for other parts of the world. :)
I am an adult, dammit!
Do you deliver late-night?
...
Asking for a friend...
I do indeed work the night shift.
No, no.
Terry crews is hilarious.
It would take an eternity in the gym to get that body.
It would be, if I didn't state that one DOES NOT HAVE TO ACQUIESCE TO EVERY REQUEST MADE OF THEM FOR INTIMATES in the post you replied to.
bolder and enlarged in case you missed it.
Sure, saying no to spending money is exactly the same as saying no to sexual acts you don't want to perform.
Sure, saying no to spending money is exactly the same as saying no to sexual acts you don't want to perform.It would be, if I didn't state that one DOES NOT HAVE TO ACQUIESCE TO EVERY REQUEST MADE OF THEM FOR INTIMATES in the post you replied to.
bolder and enlarged in case you missed it.
i didn't say they were the same. I said your argument was poorly made and based in missionary thought.
Edit- which it may not be, but still.
i didn't say they were the same. I said your argument was poorly made and based in missionary thought.Sure, saying no to spending money is exactly the same as saying no to sexual acts you don't want to perform.It would be, if I didn't state that one DOES NOT HAVE TO ACQUIESCE TO EVERY REQUEST MADE OF THEM FOR INTIMATES in the post you replied to.
bolder and enlarged in case you missed it.
You drew the analogy, not me. You set the equivalence, not me. If you didn't believe in the statement you shouldn't have made it. You can't put your words off on to me though.
You drew the analogy, not me. You set the equivalence, not me. If you didn't believe in the statement you shouldn't have made it. You can't put your words off on to me though.i didn't say they were the same. I said your argument was poorly made and based in missionary thought.Sure, saying no to spending money is exactly the same as saying no to sexual acts you don't want to perform.It would be, if I didn't state that one DOES NOT HAVE TO ACQUIESCE TO EVERY REQUEST MADE OF THEM FOR INTIMATES in the post you replied to.
bolder and enlarged in case you missed it.
you are making less and less sense on this, at least to me. If you can rephrase so I can get another perspective, I'd appreciate it, but for now it seems we are just going to have to agree to disagree.
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* Cues up bad seventies funk-jazz for Freehold.However, I don't think anyone over... I dunno... 14~15 years believes that sex is like porn...Saying porn causes body image issues and sets unrealistic expectations about sex is like saying The Matrix sets unrealistic expectations for learning kung fu and makes young martial artists feel bad about themselves because they don't look like Hollywood stars and can't dodge bullets!Just touching on this point.
I'm not disagreeing with your larger point, but mainstream pornography is part of a much larger set of societal influences that cause body image issues. It's not the main culprit - I'd not even say top five - but it's still a part of how society can influence body image.
I'm speaking only about U.S. culture, by the way; I know we have an international community here, and I don't want to speak for other parts of the world. :)
I am an adult, dammit!
Do you deliver late-night?
...
Asking for a friend...
I do indeed work the night shift.
No, no.
Terry crews is hilarious.
It would take an eternity in the gym to get that body.
speaking of Terry Crews, watch the video for Santeria by Sublime :-) and that guy is hilarious :-)
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But I suspect the peer reviewed study is more likely to take that into account than anecdotes from random teens.But there's not much they can do for it. Its simply a limitation on the social sciences that make the social fine but when they add science they prevaricate.No, but when 60% of female respondents between 16 and 20 say that their partners expect them to perform acts they don't want to and that those partners openly admit that they desire to perform those acts because they saw it in porn, and that those female respondents ultimately capitulate to those requests, then it is reasonable to conclude that porn is adversely affecting the self worth of those females.
That is all true whether you believe in science or not.
And what percentage of respondents said they enjoyed said act and would perform it again? Or that they did not enjoy it but would perform it again because their partner did? Or said they enjoyed it but wouldn't perform it again for some reason? Or where completely ambivalent about the act afterwards?
Do you have a link to this study?
People convince their friends, family, lovers, etc to do things all the time. No one's self worth is positively or negatively affected. just because sometimes it happens in the bedroom doesn't change that. I could give you a laundry list of things I've been convinced to try in bed. Some were enjoyable, some weren't. Some will be repeated, some won't. Interestingly those sets are not the same for lot of different reasons.
lots of things I tried with my ex that will never see the inside of my bedroom again. It doesn't mean she forced me into it(although I was nervous) or was a bad person. Just that it is something that will remain between us and noone else.
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Do you have a link to this study?
I provided the link in this very thread. You are welcome to read the thread and find it.
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I thank you and Dame Lamberts for your patience, Dame Courts. This is a hot button topic,and I will endeavor to keep a cool head.
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Do you have a link to this study?I provided the link in this very thread. You are welcome to read the thread and find it.
Study you linked. For the curious.
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speaking of Terry Crews, watch the video for Santeria by Sublime :-) and that guy is hilarious :-)* Cues up bad seventies funk-jazz for Freehold.However, I don't think anyone over... I dunno... 14~15 years believes that sex is like porn...Saying porn causes body image issues and sets unrealistic expectations about sex is like saying The Matrix sets unrealistic expectations for learning kung fu and makes young martial artists feel bad about themselves because they don't look like Hollywood stars and can't dodge bullets!Just touching on this point.
I'm not disagreeing with your larger point, but mainstream pornography is part of a much larger set of societal influences that cause body image issues. It's not the main culprit - I'd not even say top five - but it's still a part of how society can influence body image.
I'm speaking only about U.S. culture, by the way; I know we have an international community here, and I don't want to speak for other parts of the world. :)
I am an adult, dammit!
Do you deliver late-night?
...
Asking for a friend...
I do indeed work the night shift.
No, no.
Terry crews is hilarious.
It would take an eternity in the gym to get that body.
Terry Crews is a priceless national treasure.
Also, this is relevant to not only the thread but our identity as gamers. (vaguely NSFW)
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you are making less and less sense on this, at least to me. If you can rephrase so I can get another perspective, I'd appreciate it, but for now it seems we are just going to have to agree to disagree.
Sure.
No, but when 60% of female respondents between 16 and 20 say that their partners expect them to perform acts they don't want to and that those partners openly admit that they desire to perform those acts because they saw it in porn, and that those female respondents ultimately capitulate to those requests, then it is reasonable to conclude that porn is adversely affecting the self worth of those females.
Which was a summation of the abstract from a peer-reviewed scientific research paper on the topic of porn and self-image. Granted, that the summation was from memory so the exact numbers may have been off.
Your response to my summation of a peer-reviewed scientific paper was
I'm sure a similar number of male respondents would not want to take their partner to a restaurant they can't afford that their partner saw got a good review on yelp, so yelp is adversely affecting the fiscal self esteem of those men.
That is called "drawing an analogy"
Analogy:A thing that is comparable to something else in significant respects
or Logic A process of arguing from similarity in known respects to similarity in other respects.
I found the analogy to be dripping with male privilege, so I stated it.
This statement is the definition of male privilege.
You seemed to think that the part of your comment which followed somehow mitigated your privileged statement.
It would be, if I didn't state that one DOES NOT HAVE TO ACQUIESCE TO EVERY REQUEST MADE OF THEM FOR INTIMATES in the post you replied to.
I disagree that that statement mitigates the privilege in the previous statement. So I made a flip comment which illustrated that the ability to "say no" doesn't change the gravity of the analogy.
Sure, saying no to spending money is exactly the same as saying no to sexual acts you don't want to perform.
You then tried to deny making the analogy at all.
i didn't say they were the same.
But your post is there clear as day where you do draw the analogy. I was kind of surprised you would try to claim that given that your statement was right there in the open for everyone to see. So I replied.
You drew the analogy, not me. You set the equivalence, not me. If you didn't believe in the statement you shouldn't have made it.
Which I think brings us all up to speed. Did this perspective help you understand where I'm coming from?
edit: fixed a quote, and some typos.
You provided a link to an abstract that doesn't contain the statistics you posted and that does not describe the methodology used.Do you have a link to this study?I provided the link in this very thread. You are welcome to read the thread and find it.
The full text is 3 clicks away. It is, regrettably, behind a pay wall.
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The full text is 3 clicks away. It is, regrettably, behind a pay wall.You provided a link to an abstract that doesn't contain the statistics you posted and that does not describe the methodology used.Do you have a link to this study?I provided the link in this very thread. You are welcome to read the thread and find it.
That is why I didn't say anything about it originally myself though when you posted it, I couldn't read it(well, refused to pay for it) It works better if you can find things people can read without committing dollars.
you are making less and less sense on this, at least to me. If you can rephrase so I can get another perspective, I'd appreciate it, but for now it seems we are just going to have to agree to disagree.Sure.
No, but when 60% of female respondents between 16 and 20 say that their partners expect them to perform acts they don't want to and that those partners openly admit that they desire to perform those acts because they saw it in porn, and that those female respondents ultimately capitulate to those requests, then it is reasonable to conclude that porn is adversely affecting the self worth of those females.Which was a summation of the abstract from a peer-reviewed scientific research paper on the topic of porn and self-image. Granted, that the summation was from memory so the exact numbers may have been off.
Your response to my summation of a peer-reviewed scientific paper was
I'm sure a similar number of male respondents would not want to take their partner to a restaurant they can't afford that their partner saw got a good review on yelp, so yelp is adversely affecting the fiscal self esteem of those men.That is called "drawing an analogy"
Analogy: A process of arguing from similarity in known respects to similarity in other respects
or Logic A process of arguing from similarity in known respects to similarity in other respects.
I found the that analogy to be dripping with male privilege, so I sated it.
This statement is the definition of male privilege.You seemed to think that the part of your comment which followed somehow mitigated your privileged statement.
It would be, if I didn't state that one DOES NOT HAVE TO ACQUIESCE TO EVERY REQUEST MADE OF THEM FOR INTIMATES in the post you replied to.I disagree that that statement mitigates the privilege in the previous statement. So I made...
taking a last stab at this then moving on.
You jump to a conclusion when you state that porn is adversely affecting the self worth of the females in the study you were talking about, as this is not only stuff from memory, but also(and correct me if I am wrong) your own statement propped upon the results of the study, not something the study stated itself(I.e. reasonable to conclude...) Moreover, this is a study that...
Krensky wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:
Krensky wrote:
Do you have a link to this study?
I provided the link in this very thread. You are welcome to read the thread and find it.
You provided a link to an abstract that doesn't contain the statistics you posted and that does not describe the methodology used.
The full text is 3 clicks away. It is, regrettably, behind a pay wall.
We have to take you at your word on. Not that you are a liar, mind, but still. As it is a study that not even you- whose argument hinges upon it- can not access, taking me to task for a statement based on equal inaccessibility(mine doesn't even exist!) is a bit much. Moreover,to slave it to an accusation of male privilege is where it goes from a bit much to the absurd. I had already pointed out that one does not (and indeed, for safetys sake alone should not) say "yes" each time they are propositioned, and took issue specifically with how the argument itself was made, as to me, it was based on an assumption and (as later revealed) memory, not that refusing to pay for an expensive dinner and refusing sex are the same thing.
That said, in those, and indeed every civilized conversation involving anything, ANY AND ALL refusal should be accepted by all parties, albeit sometimes with a heavy heart and disappointment.
That's about it from me.
Just to be clear, I'm not drawing conclusions from the study; I'm restating the conclusions of the study.
A symmetrical relationship was revealed between men and women as a result of viewing pornography, with women reporting more negative consequences, including lowered body image, partner critical of their body, increased pressure to perform acts seen in pornographic films, and less actual sex, while men reported being more critical of their partners' body and less interested in actual sex.
If you don't like the abstract then find a study that contradicts it or dig into the methods yourself. I'm not going to violate their copywrite to appease you.
But the abstract doesn't give a conclusion. It doesn't even say what the relationship is.Seriously?
Is there anyway to read that than as "as a result of viewing pornography", "women reported more negative consequences, including lowered body image, partner critical of their body, increased pressure to perform acts seen in pornographic films, and less actual sex, while men reported being more critical of their partners' body and less interested in actual sex."
What more of a conclusion or relationship do you want?
Indeed, that is the actual purpose of an abstract; to decribe what type of study was conducted and summarize the results.
Mm.
If my technobabble is up to date, Krensky has a point.
The author of the abstract described the consequences of viewing porn the women reported as negative. The consequence the men reported had no qualifier.
It says there's a symmetrical relationship, but it doesn't say what is actually related. It suggests that increased incidence of viewing porn and men being jerks is the relationship. However a symmetrical relationship does not show anything resembling causality, and in fact that term is used for things that fluctuate together and are related, but do not have a causal link.
The symmetrical relationship between the responses of men and women means they fluctuate around a common link, not in responce to each other. The common link is porn.
Ie. The study finds that the variable of "women who identify with diminished self-image" and "men who are more judgemental of their partner's appearance," and the common link between proclivity of those variabls to be true was "viewing pornography."
I have a really hard time with the claim porn reduced sex and not the reverse of lack of sex increased porn. How are they able to justify a causal relationship?
Take it as you will, thejeff... But that study honestly doesn't seem very accurate or unbiased. I don't see how it could not be.
That's a real limitation of studies that rely on what people's impressions. If a scientist said to the participants something like "watch more porn, tell me if you notice any negative effects", how do you know it was an actual increase in negative behaviors rather than an increased in observed/imagined behavior? I doubt the scientists kept tables on the sex life of the participants.
We see this kind of (often unconscious) bias all the time.
I have a really hard time with the claim porn reduced sex and not the reverse of lack of sex increased porn. How are they able to justify a causal relationship?
Without spending 40 bucks to see the actual study we may never know.