Pornography: Destructive Entertainment? Or Good Times? Somewhere in Between?


Off-Topic Discussions

151 to 200 of 397 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | next > last >>

Freehold DM wrote:
Yuugasa wrote:
Although, if I remember right the study I linked above does contain interviews with girls who say how porn makes them think and feel about things and it's somewhat in line with my OP. (Can't remember clearly though, only read the study once a long time ago. Also, too lazy to reread!)
I'm sure the study was quite good, and moreover not only are you entitled to your opinion, I don't necessarily disagree. I was more making an observation than anything else, posting out loud.

It's all good. Looking up thread I didn't even catch your post(tired) I was just responding to a memory, not what you said. Thanks for the reassurance though=)


1 person marked this as a favorite.
BigNorseWolf wrote:

If porn gets lambasted for setting unrealistic expectations that are ultimately harmful can we level the same charge at romantic comedies?

I think a girl trading sex for pizza is a heck of a lot more realistic than finding a man that is young but has had time to amass a large amount of wealth, gets paid a lot but still has all the time in the world to hit the gym AND devote to you, handles a high stress job but doesn't lose his hair, is caring and sensitive but still knows how to fight and yet is STILL not inexplicably unmarried but also attracted to a woman only because of how special they are, not because they're beautiful.

Heck, I think guardians of the galaxy might rate as more likely than that.....

Damnit man, I can't favorite this enough. I almost want to log off and make a series of new accounts just so you can get fifteen more favorites by me for this one.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Yuugasa wrote:


I agree with this actually, I do think media can do a lot to set up expectations, influencing how we see things. Porn just has a lot of other issues too. Not that something needs to be done about either.

Maybe we just accept that what we're being sold is a fantasy, something we didn't even realize we wanted and remember not to take it seriously or judge people for wanting what they want.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Do people read studies posted in threads?

A couple interview excerpts as I am rereading now: (what the kids themselves say!)

Expectations? Boys Disagree.:

Overall, it was the young women that admitted being influenced by the physical ideals displayed in pornography. They expressed some insecurity about their own bodies and about whether they would be considered adequate in the eyes of their sexual partners. They worried that they would be compared against the physical standards of the women in pornography and that they would be found lacking. A young woman recalled a situation when she was watching a pornographic movie together with male friends:

Q: How did you feel then?

F: Well, like very unattractive...you can say that you aren’t influenced by this, but no one can resist. You do want to have these ideal bodies.

Q: Why does one think like that?

F: Well, even though I don’t think it is good looking to have huge silicone breasts, but...everyone in the movies have those and they all have shaved bodies...so, well...they have what is regarded as gorgeous bodies. (Female interview, aged 15 years)

The young men stated that they were not affected by these physical ideals. The young women, thought that the men were not willing to admit this and maintained that ‘'nobody can resist the influence of these ideals.’’ Apart from being compared in appearance, the women were also concerned that young men would expect them to act in a similar way to the women in pornographic movies. Engaging in anal sex was cited as one example of this, clearly influenced by porn, the female participants argued. A young woman related an episode when her boyfriend wanted to try anal sex:

"Well, I told him that neither I nor my girl friends want to do that [anal sex]. But because I knew that the boyfriend to one of my girlfriends also wanted to try it, I told my boyfriend to do it with him!" (Female interview, aged 19 years)

However, most of the male participants in our study did not agree with the views of the female participants. They fervently denied, both in the focus groups and in the individual interviews, that they wanted to do everything that is shown in pornographic movies. Furthermore, they asserted that sex in real life is something completely different and they can keep the two things apart from each other.

‘‘Self-Esteem is Important’’:
Even though most of the participants declared that pornography does affect everyone to some degree, especially when it comes to physical appearance and sexual performance, they argued that the majority managed to avoid becoming psychologically harmed.

In other words, they navigated successfully and the older they became, the easier this was to do. Focus groups. about pornography diminished, and its role was downplayed in the young participants’ lives; they reported that life experiences, rather than specific sexual experiences, contributed to experiences with pornography becoming more nuanced and defused. Most of our participants, regardless of gender, said that young people’s interest in pornography decreased with age: With increasing age, the curiosity

M2: I do pornography myself instead of looking at it nowadays (laughing)!

M4: Yes, that is pretty common when you get older.

Q: So you don’t look that much if you have a partner of your own?

M4: That is the way it is. (Male focus group, aged 17–20 years)

Our participants also pointed out the importance of including pornography in sex education in schools to reach those who do not have anyone else to discuss the subject with, as well as those who believe the subject is important and interesting to discuss.

Individual interviews. that their self-confidence and self-esteem increased as they grew older. In addition, they found it easier to assert their own sexual preferences and sexual desire: Our participants reported

"It is important to be able to say that I don’t want to do that! And if you don’t respect my wishes, so...well, drop off!But,also it’s important to sometimes stretch your borders and try...because then you know more about what you like and dislike." (Female interview, aged 19 years)

Our participants also described anxiety that pornography consumption could lead to abuse for some people, even though none of them declared that they were at risk of this. They told us about a small group of young people, young men in particular, who were at risk. According to descriptions from our participants, these individuals suffered from social isolation and loneliness, which, in turn, may lead to vulnerable situations:

"If you have poor self esteem...and don’t dare to date girls in real life....Then, if you are drinking beer and looking at porn instead...and get the idea that you just can go out and f*++ a girl. Then you will end up with a thick ear! (Male interview, aged 18 years)

The majority of our participants stated that they could handle the exposure to pornography satisfactorily because they have friends and close relationships with family members. In addition, they had positive life experiences that made it possible to develop good self-esteem:

"It is important to have someone to talk with...and to have a family as a support and someone in the same situation. And of the same age.... And not being alone. Friends are very important! (Male interview, aged 20 years)

Discussion Overall, the young participants seemed to enjoy talking about this subject, both in the individual interviews and in the focus groups. Initially, we believed that the interviews would provide an opportunity to talk more openly and freely about the subject. However, the topic seemed easy for participants to discuss both in the focus groups and in the interviews. Indeed, we noted a tendency for participants to speak more unreservedly in the focus groups and also for individuals to sometimes change perspective on a subject in response to comments.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Yuugasa wrote:


I agree with this actually, I do think media can do a lot to set up expectations, influencing how we see things. Porn just has a lot of other issues too. Not that something needs to be done about either.
Maybe we just accept that what we're being sold is a fantasy, something we didn't even realize we wanted and remember not to take it seriously or judge people for wanting what they want.

Am I coming off as judgey? Apologies, I am just having fun.

On a new anti-seizure medication and one of the potential side effects is insomnia. I've got it, so I'm just wiling away the long hours.

I can stop if the conversation is played out though.


Krensky wrote:
There does seem to be a shortage of snarky, minor Spanish nobility just back from campaigning...

My last attempt at a report from the trenches was cruelly lost in the swirling winds of cyberspace (tmi, I presume), so I have been content to watch other brave knights tilt against windmills.

Nowadays, I just watch porn to get ideas. They're usually harder than they look, but some of them have been quite enjoyable.


*adjusts her 'What Would Don Quixote Do?' wristband*

Liberty's Edge

Wrong Spaniard.

Although now that I'm fully awake I remember the two I was thinking of are from Italy, their boss and his bastard of a half-brother were from Spain.


[Bats dreamy Italian eyes]


[initiates pup feeding response]


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Another tidbit: (not sure what the point of this is I'm just bored=)

Three Functions:

In our study, we identified three main functions of pornography in young people’s lives. These were pornography as (a) a form of social intercourse, (b) a source of information, and (c) a stimulus for sexual arousal.

Pornography as a form of social intercourse was primarily focused on the interaction between the viewers. Pornography as a form of social intercourse. Focus groups. Looking at pornography together with friends, either on the computer or in movies on television, was a common experience, according to the focus group discussions. Sometimes these situations occurred during meetings for computer games, a so-called local area network:

M1: Half of the guys were playing games...half were looking at porn.

M7: I have never seen as much porn as then! (Male focus group, aged 17–20 years)

These situations were, for the most part, not discussed as involving sexual arousal. Instead, the young men described these shared experiences as a way of testing one’s own and others’ reactions to the actors’ and actresses’ behaviors, appearances, and bodies. The jokes, laughs, and sighs became a normative guideline for the young and perhaps sexually inexperienced viewer. This phenomenon was recognized and discussed in the female focus groups as well:

F1: They probably sit on the sofa, making fun of the women in the porn movie.

F2: Yes, (say the other girl) even if the guy hits the woman they say: ‘‘well, she likes it!’’ (Female focus group, aged 17–20 years)

Pornography as a source of information. Focus groups. The content of the pornography was usually described in both the male and female focus groups as rather violent and rough. Nevertheless, some of its substance also functioned as a source of information for the young people. The discussions illustrated that pornography as a source of information was critically reviewed by the young people. Sometimes it was perceived as a reliable source; more often, it was judged as exaggerated, distorted, or downright false:

Sure, you can get some tip-offs by pornography....But, they do it completely brutally! Ok, you can do it fast, kind of.... But in the porn-movie they do it ten times faster! (Female focus group, aged 17–20 years)

Individual interviews. acquired in different ways, depending on access to sources Information on sexuality is and consideration of what is reliable and useful, which, in turn, depends on one’s previous experience. Some of the participants explained that behaviors could be depicted in pornographic movies that they did not know about beforehand—for example, different sexual positions and techniques about how to satisfy a partner sexually:

We didn’t learn that much in school about sex education, so one has to look in porn magazines. But the only good thing is that you might learn a new way of having sex, kind of.... (Male interview, aged 18 years)

Pornography as a stimulus for sexual arousal. Focus groups.The third function of pornography was as a stimulus for sexual arousal, either alone or in the company of someone else. This was primarily described as a private activity but, all the same, a subject that was permissible to talk about in the focus groups. Overall, the young men described becoming sexually aroused by pornography more often than the young women did, and they also said that they used it for this reason. Sexuality was often described by the men as a frustrating need that had to be satisfied. In addition, the general opinion was that young men are more interested in sex (and, therefore, in pornography) than women:

M1: Well, you know...we as guys are horny all the time...

R: Is it really that way, or is it something that guys just are saying?

M1: Not all the time... M6: No, but it is not an awkward thing to say if you’re a guy...compared to if you were a girl

M2: It is a funny thing to say! (Male focus group, aged 14–16 years)

Individual interviews. more taciturn and reserved in the individual interviews. They still talked about pornography consumption without expressions of shame or guilt, however, and often described it as an easy way of getting sexually satisfied: The male participants were Sometimes I just want to get rid of the energy in my body.... And then it [porn] is a fast way of doing that! Afterwards I can do other things...go to school, exercise and so on. (Male interview, aged 15 years)

As mentioned earlier, the women in our study were generally more ambivalent regarding pornography than the men. It is important to point out that some of the young men also told us that they were not sexually excited by pornographic concurrently, said that this was expected of them as men. Thus, just as the women felt that they were pictures or films but, expected to react to pornography in a negative way, some of the men articulated the opposite:

It is humiliating...that is the way 1 see it. And when you see a porn movie with six guys and one woman.... How fun can that be? (Male interview, aged 18 years)


These are a bunch of middle class kids from Sweden btw.


Looking at various studies about pornography. There is one that shows men consume more pornography than women.

Really?

In other news men scratch their balls more often than women do.


BigNorseWolf wrote:

If porn gets lambasted for setting unrealistic expectations that are ultimately harmful can we level the same charge at romantic comedies?

I think a girl trading sex for pizza is a heck of a lot more realistic than finding a man that is young but has had time to amass a large amount of wealth, gets paid a lot but still has all the time in the world to hit the gym AND devote to you, handles a high stress job but doesn't lose his hair, is caring and sensitive but still knows how to fight and yet is STILL not inexplicably unmarried but also attracted to a woman only because of how special they are, not because they're beautiful.

Heck, I think guardians of the galaxy might rate as more likely than that.....

Isn't that basically the premise of JGL's movie Don Jon?


1 person marked this as a favorite.
BigNorseWolf wrote:

If porn gets lambasted for setting unrealistic expectations that are ultimately harmful can we level the same charge at romantic comedies?

I think a girl trading sex for pizza is a heck of a lot more realistic than finding a man that is young but has had time to amass a large amount of wealth, gets paid a lot but still has all the time in the world to hit the gym AND devote to you, handles a high stress job but doesn't lose his hair, is caring and sensitive but still knows how to fight and yet is STILL not inexplicably unmarried but also attracted to a woman only because of how special they are, not because they're beautiful.

Heck, I think guardians of the galaxy might rate as more likely than that.....

This may be one of the twenty-five bests posts I've ever read.


5 people marked this as a favorite.

Well I think I am bored of researching the effects of pornography and debating the possible effects of pornography, now what?...

...

...

...

...

...

...Opens a window to a porn site.

/endthread


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Yuugasa wrote:

Looking at various studies about pornography. There is one that shows men consume more pornography than women.

Really?

In other news men scratch their balls more often than women do.

Sometimes it's actually useful to confirm what common wisdom tells us. Sometimes it isn't actually true.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
thejeff wrote:
Yuugasa wrote:

Looking at various studies about pornography. There is one that shows men consume more pornography than women.

Really?

In other news men scratch their balls more often than women do.

Sometimes it's actually useful to confirm what common wisdom tells us. Sometimes it isn't actually true.

I once saw an article that said people who take naps are often more well rested than those who don't. True story.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Pornography and siestas, I love this thread!


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Joynt Jezebel wrote:
Tacticslion wrote:


Joynt Jezebel wrote:

Something worth noting is what the research tells you about the effect of porn on viewers.

It essentially leaves you wanting to do what you see. So if porn showing people just having sex leaves you interested in sex.

This sounds fine but one of the causes of partner rape is wanting to get the woman to do things the man has seen in porn she doesn't want to do. If you know what is in a lot of hard core porn you can easily see how this can happen.

I think it also means the law in Australia is sensible. You can show sex but not sex with violence or abuse. This is in contrast to Japan where rape is a big theme in porn and other media. Worse, rape where the woman loves it in the end.

Do you have links to this? Because such a powerful statement, if backed up by hard numbers, is a really big deal.

Note - I'm not denying or challenging this. Pornography definitively triggers the Pavalovian response, which is perfect for conditioning.

I'm just curious about sources, and how much solid evidence for "I see, must do" actually exists as a link between them in pornographic material. Is the response "Yeah, I want that kind of thing in real life!" or "Yeah, I wanna see more of that kind of thing on the tv! ... ew, never in real life!" (as I know that there are certainly elements of my own fantasy worlds that contradict my preferences in the real world).

I am going to have to withdraw my original post.

I had a look at the research. It is a mess of competing claims. One article that seemed better referenced and thorough to me is here http://www.christopherjferguson.com/pornography.pdf.
Contrary to what I thought, the rate of rape in Japan is low. And while porn became more available in the US and Australia in the 90s and 2000s the rate of rape was falling in these countries, much of the time anyway. And the availability of largely unregulated porn on the internet since the 90s hasn't resulted in rates of rape going through the roof- fortunately.
It seems porn does not cause rape. And caution is needed refering to reseach in this area. There is a mess of competing claims.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Yuugasa wrote:

Well I think I am bored of researching the effects of pornography and debating the possible effects of pornography, now what?...

...

...

...

...

...

...Opens a window to a porn site.

/endthread

Aw yeah, look at those ellipses, that's hot.

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Joynt Jezebel wrote:
Joynt Jezebel wrote:
Tacticslion wrote:


Joynt Jezebel wrote:

Something worth noting is what the research tells you about the effect of porn on viewers.

It essentially leaves you wanting to do what you see. So if porn showing people just having sex leaves you interested in sex.

This sounds fine but one of the causes of partner rape is wanting to get the woman to do things the man has seen in porn she doesn't want to do. If you know what is in a lot of hard core porn you can easily see how this can happen.

I think it also means the law in Australia is sensible. You can show sex but not sex with violence or abuse. This is in contrast to Japan where rape is a big theme in porn and other media. Worse, rape where the woman loves it in the end.

Do you have links to this? Because such a powerful statement, if backed up by hard numbers, is a really big deal.

Note - I'm not denying or challenging this. Pornography definitively triggers the Pavalovian response, which is perfect for conditioning.

I'm just curious about sources, and how much solid evidence for "I see, must do" actually exists as a link between them in pornographic material. Is the response "Yeah, I want that kind of thing in real life!" or "Yeah, I wanna see more of that kind of thing on the tv! ... ew, never in real life!" (as I know that there are certainly elements of my own fantasy worlds that contradict my preferences in the real world).

I am going to have to withdraw my original post.

I had a look at the research. It is a mess of competing claims. One article that seemed better referenced and thorough to me is here http://www.christopherjferguson.com/pornography.pdf.
Contrary to what I thought, the rate of rape in Japan is low. And while porn became more available in the US and Australia in the 90s and 2000s the rate of rape was falling in these countries, much of the time anyway. And the availability of largely unregulated porn on the internet since the 90s hasn't resulted in...

Trying to make direct comparisons between Japan and the United States is extremely complicated. On the one hand you have a polyglot mix of cultures. On the other hand you have a more or less monoculture with values very foreign to American thought and a language that does not even fully translate. Gratitude in Japanese for instance, is expressed through any of seven different words which embody varying levels of resentment. Our version simply does not translate into Japanese. And that's important because you think in your native language.

Pornography in Japan, and much of the Far East, simply does not exist in the same context as Calvinist America. Japan despite it's samurai heritage, is not a culture of guns and violence that America is. On the other hand, we'd have problems understanding the concept of a Buddhist cult that throws nerve gas into subways, because of the assumptions we make about Buddhism.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I agree with most everything you say LazarX.

It is easy to misunderstand other cultures, especially ones which don't share a history with your own.

What I mean is as an Australian, while I might misunderstand something in the USA or England, large scale misunderstanding isn't likely. Its harder to understand most European countries and somewhere like China harder still. Japan has a reputation for being absolutely incomprehensible and I find it so.

I know what you mean about Buddhism. The Buddha actually preached pacifism and peacefulness. But that does not mean every Buddhist follows this. Muay Thai is very connected with Therevada Buddhism, but is violent and in its older form very violent indeed. There are forms of Christianity, notably in the US, which are difficult to relate to anything Jesus said.

Back to rape, nobody knows how many rapes occur. We know how many are reported to the police for certain and have estimates on the number of unreported rapes. One would expect that the more shame there is in being a rape victim and the worse rape victims are treated by authorities and courts the less likely a victim will be to report a rape. I am sure that at least some countries with low rates of reported rape just have higher rates of unreported rape.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

And yet... The japanese are still HUMANS, so for some odd reason they like sex and like pictures of sex. Who knew, right?

Indeed, porn does not cause rape. Nor does violent movies cause violent crime. The "monkey see, monkey do" crowd has very little going for it these days. The expansion of the internet into various areas of the US has correlated with falling sexual crime statistics in said areas. Interestingly enough, there is a study that says that teenagers and young adults are quite a lot safer during their sexual debuts since the internet came. It is not so odd either. Before the internet, people were put in the situation that rl interaction was needed to begin experimenting. After, they have had many more options. It also seems to be the case that watching a violent movie, one about violent sex, or the like, actually dampens the person's impulse to do such things themselves.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I still find it funny how the "but it influences people!" crowd never seem to inude themselves in their claims... Nope. It's always everyone else who is too stupid to separate fantasy from reality. "Porn influences people negatively... Not me, because I'm Oh-So-Enlightned, but everyone else, because they are obviously not nearly as smart as my brilliant self!".

Can we stop assuming that people are stupid? They aren't. Most of them might be uncultured, but they aren't stupid. 99% of the world can (and does) tell the difference between fantasy and reality.

I'm so f*@@ing tired of this holier-than-thou atittude...Saying porn causes body image issues and sets unrealistic expectations about sex is like saying The Matrix sets unrealistic expectations for learning kung fu and makes young martial artists feel bad about themselves because they don't look like Hollywood stars and can't dodge bullets!

And if are going to mention Japan, let's remember that even though rape is a very common theme in Japanese pornography, it's one of the nations with the lowest number of actual occurences of the crime in the world.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Are you saying I don't know kung fu?

Silver Crusade Contributor

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Lemmy wrote:
Saying porn causes body image issues and sets unrealistic expectations about sex is like saying The Matrix sets unrealistic expectations for learning kung fu and makes young martial artists feel bad about themselves because they don't look like Hollywood stars and can't dodge bullets!

Just touching on this point.

I'm not disagreeing with your larger point, but mainstream pornography is part of a much larger set of societal influences that cause body image issues. It's not the main culprit - I'd not even say top five - but it's still a part of how society can influence body image.

I'm speaking only about U.S. culture, by the way; I know we have an international community here, and I don't want to speak for other parts of the world. :)


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Lemmy wrote:

I still find it funny how the "but it influences people!" crowd never seem to inude themselves in their claims... Nope. It's always everyone else who is too stupid to separate fantasy from reality. "Porn influences people negatively... Not me, because I'm Oh-So-Enlightned, but everyone else, because they are obviously not nearly as smart as my brilliant self!".

Can we stop assuming that people are stupid? They aren't. Most of them might be uncultured, but they aren't stupid. 99% of the world can (and does) tell the difference between fantasy and reality.

I'm so f~&!ing tired of this holier-than-thou atittude...Saying porn causes body image issues and sets unrealistic expectations about sex is like saying The Matrix sets unrealistic expectations for learning kung fu and makes young martial artists feel bad about themselves because they don't look like Hollywood stars and can't dodge bullets!

And if are going to mention Japan, let's remember that even though rape is a very common theme in Japanese pornography, it's one of the nations with the lowest number of actual occurences of the crime in the world.

I still find it funny how the "no influence" crowd pretends everything is binary: either porn causes rape, which is easily disproven, or it has no influence at all. Art and culture influence people. Porn is part of that. As are video games and comic books and everything else. It's nowhere near as simple as "can't tell fantasy from reality" and thinking you're living inside the porn movie. But that doesn't mean there's no influence in how you think about sex or women or what your wants or expectations are.

And I've never said I was immune. Nor do I recall anyone else in this thread or others on similar subjects saying that.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Kalindlara wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
Saying porn causes body image issues and sets unrealistic expectations about sex is like saying The Matrix sets unrealistic expectations for learning kung fu and makes young martial artists feel bad about themselves because they don't look like Hollywood stars and can't dodge bullets!

Just touching on this point.

I'm not disagreeing with your larger point, but mainstream pornography is part of a much larger set of societal influences that cause body image issues. It's not the main culprit - I'd not even say top five - but it's still a part of how society can influence body image.

I'm speaking only about U.S. culture, by the way; I know we have an international community here, and I don't want to speak for other parts of the world. :)

However, I don't think anyone over... I dunno... 14~15 years believes that sex is like porn (even those who never had it), in the same way that they know police work is not like they see it in Lethal Weapon movies. Most people can diferentiate reality from fiction.

And seriously... If someone has issues because fiction portrays attractive and competent characters, then that person has to grow up and learn how to deal with it, even if they will need help for that... Because what's the alternative? Have all fiction only portray characters who are completely average ot below that just so no one feels inadequate?

I've always known for a fact that I'll never be as attractive, competent, charming, smart or overall awesome as my favorite characters... Rather than make me feel bad, all that did was make me admire those characters more and do my best to be more like them in whatever aspects of life I admire in them.

Society too often decides to blame media for showing idealized characters instead of teaching people that it's okay to not be a hollywood superstar with super powers. The real solution is to educate young people, not to bash movies, games, porn or whatever for providing the escapism fantasy we want them to provide!


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Lemmy wrote:
And if are going to mention Japan, let's remember that even though rape is a very common theme in Japanese pornography, it's one of the nations with the lowest number of actual occurences of the crime in the world.

No.

It is a country where a very low number of rapes are reported to the police. That is not the same thing at all.
I recall reading a book on sexual offences in Japan and the plight of the victim is... grim. It seems likely that this would lead to a larger percentage of cases of rape being unreported than in countries where rape victims are treated better by the authorities.
I understand in the West Bank in Israel rape victims are sometimes murdered by male members of their own families as the victim has dishonored her family. This sort of practice is certain to lower the number of reports of rape.
Another matter to consider is their is no single definition of rape used by all legal systems. So different countries rape statistics include or exclude some forms of assault.
Most rapes are unreported... everywhere. Nobody knows the exact picture.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
thejeff wrote:
Lemmy wrote:

I still find it funny how the "but it influences people!" crowd never seem to inude themselves in their claims... Nope. It's always everyone else who is too stupid to separate fantasy from reality. "Porn influences people negatively... Not me, because I'm Oh-So-Enlightned, but everyone else, because they are obviously not nearly as smart as my brilliant self!".

Can we stop assuming that people are stupid? They aren't. Most of them might be uncultured, but they aren't stupid. 99% of the world can (and does) tell the difference between fantasy and reality.

I'm so f~&!ing tired of this holier-than-thou atittude...Saying porn causes body image issues and sets unrealistic expectations about sex is like saying The Matrix sets unrealistic expectations for learning kung fu and makes young martial artists feel bad about themselves because they don't look like Hollywood stars and can't dodge bullets!

And if are going to mention Japan, let's remember that even though rape is a very common theme in Japanese pornography, it's one of the nations with the lowest number of actual occurences of the crime in the world.

I still find it funny how the "no influence" crowd pretends everything is binary: either porn causes rape, which is easily disproven, or it has no influence at all. Art and culture influence people. Porn is part of that. As are video games and comic books and everything else. It's nowhere near as simple as "can't tell fantasy from reality" and thinking you're living inside the porn movie. But that doesn't mean there's no influence in how you think about sex or women or what your wants or expectations are.

And I've never said I was immune. Nor do I recall anyone else in this thread or others on similar subjects saying that.

I actually specifically said this earlier:

Yuugasa wrote:

I can tell you though (anecdotal evidence, not worth much)that my own expectations of sex and body image were heavily influenced by porn when I was younger and I essentially copied some porn scenes with equally clueless partners as if it were a manual(a really, really bad manual). I never coerced anyone, but it was pretty bad sometimes.

Growing up in a heavily religious area porn was pretty much all my peer group had to go on and it is for me hard to deny it was an influence(though not the sole influence).

Though perhaps I was the stupidest kid ever and my experience was unique. *shrug* Even now I notice media of all types has an influence on me.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

Okay, so I've been following this thread pretty closely and just had to interject one thing.

Porn does influence people. How could it not?

A good book influences people. Listening to conservative talk radio influences people. Playing RPGs influences people (--just click over to any teacher's thread on using RPGs in the classroom or parents' about teaching their kids to play RPGs). Regularly checking Facebook influences people. Going to church or synagogue every week influences people. We have bodies which have chemical and neurological responses to stimuli. We're not just floating perfectly rational brains. Our daily experiences add up to life experiences and, yes, they do influence us. Our brains actually lay down neural pathways based on life experiences. It can be measured.

Whether porn influences us positively or negatively and to what degree. I think that's what we're trying to figure out.

Silver Crusade Contributor

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Lemmy wrote:
Kalindlara wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
Saying porn causes body image issues and sets unrealistic expectations about sex is like saying The Matrix sets unrealistic expectations for learning kung fu and makes young martial artists feel bad about themselves because they don't look like Hollywood stars and can't dodge bullets!

Just touching on this point.

I'm not disagreeing with your larger point, but mainstream pornography is part of a much larger set of societal influences that cause body image issues. It's not the main culprit - I'd not even say top five - but it's still a part of how society can influence body image.

I'm speaking only about U.S. culture, by the way; I know we have an international community here, and I don't want to speak for other parts of the world. :)

However, I don't think anyone over... I dunno... 14~15 years believes that sex is like porn (even those who never had it), in the same way that they know police work is not like they see it in Lethal Weapon movies. Most people can diferentiate reality from fiction.

And seriously... If someone has issues because fiction portrays attractive and competent characters, then that person has to grow up and learn how to deal with it, even if they will need help for that... Because what's the alternative? Have all fiction only portray characters who are completely average ot below that just so no one feels inadequate?

I've always known for a fact that I'll never be as attractive, competent, charming, smart or overall awesome as my favorite characters... Rather than make me feel bad, all that did was make me admire those characters more and do my best to be more like them in whatever aspects of life I admire in them.

Society too often decides to blame media for showing idealized characters instead of teaching people that it's okay to not be a hollywood superstar with super powers. The real solution is to educate young people, not to bash movies, games, porn or whatever for providing the escapism fantasy we want them...

I don't believe it's as black and white as the terms you're using would suggest. No offense meant, of course. :)

While, as you say, most can clearly see fiction (black) and reality (white), the more that certain specific tropes are reinforced across all of the media we consume, the more likely they are to affect us. So if pornography shows us that the "ideal" woman is thin, busty, and Caucasian, it's just one source.

But if action films, romance films, comedy films, television shows, TV advertisements, print advertisements, product spokeswoman choices, video games, mens' magazines (Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Edition, etc.), womens' magazines (Cosmopolitan, etc.), comic books, and probably some I'm forgetting, all highlight certain traits as "ideal" (thin, busty, Caucasian), those who don't possess an "ideal" body are going to be negatively influenced.

Similarly, while the vast majority would not expect sex to mimic pornography in its entirety, consume enough fantasy, and you may find a little gray in your reality. It may only be subtle things - an unexplained feeling of unfulfillment, or a minor assumption that turns out to be false - but when something is sold to us a certain way for long enough, it does build expectation, just like Pavlov and his bell. It doesn't even necessarily have to involve explicitly sexual tropes. How many men, in this day and age, have been raised on the message that "the nice guy gets the girl"? What happens when the actual girl wants to be... just a friend?

It's not always as generic as "attractive and competent", unfortunately. There are alternatives besides "Hav[ing] all fiction only portray characters who are completely average or(sic) below that just so no one feels inadequate". More diverse representation doesn't mean removing all examples of the previous "default".

Recent events over at Marvel Comics serve as a fine example. We have Kamala Khan, Muslim superhero. There are still many non-Muslim superheroes. We have a female Thor. There are still many male superheroes. We have an African-American Captain America. There are still many Caucasian superheroes. Losing a small slice of the pie to diverse representation doesn't mean that there will be no more "traditional" pie. :)

Aspirational media is excellent, and it's good to have role models. But when no role models ever represent you - when so many of them already represent someone else's reality - that's when concerns arise.

We shouldn't blame the media for our problems - after all, it's both a reflection and a creation of humanity. But, neither should we pretend it has no influence over us whatsoever. :)

I hope you can read all of this. I don't know how these posts get so long. And I hope you find it interesting and thought-provoking. :)

Silver Crusade Contributor

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Do I type that slowly? :)


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Joynt Jezebel wrote:


I am going to have to withdraw my original post.
I had a look at the research. It is a mess of competing claims. One article that seemed better referenced and thorough to me is here http://www.christopherjferguson.com/pornography.pdf.
Contrary to what I thought, the rate of rape in Japan is low. And while porn became more available in the US and Australia in the 90s and 2000s the rate of rape was falling in these countries, much of the time anyway. And the availability of largely unregulated porn on the internet since the 90s hasn't resulted in...

Something to keep in mind if you are comparing incidence of rape in the US versus Japan, is that Japan is very very much behind the West in how incidents of rape are dealt with by the law enforcement community. So rape is probably under-reported and under-prosecuted

attitudes toward rape in Japan

Not that I think porn really has anything to do with Japan's cultural issues with rape. It's probably appropriate to mention here that a lot of pornographic material from Japan that shows up stateside really is not indicative of its popularity in its country of origin.


4 people marked this as a favorite.

I think the problem with suggesting there may be issues with porn is the same as with doing the same to other art forms.

Even if what you are saying is really reasonable and not out there at all you will have some folks who get the message of:

"What this person is really saying is that there is something really wrong with the entertainment I like, and by extension something wrong with me for enjoying it. Well I know I am a good person so f$$% that!"

Even if noone ever even remotely made such a claim you'll still get the occasional strong gut reaction.

*shrug* In my mind the more you like something the more you should pay attention to the potential issues with it, enough people doing so really can help the art grow in a positive direction.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Lemmy wrote:

I still find it funny how the "but it influences people!" crowd never seem to inude themselves in their claims... Nope. It's always everyone else who is too stupid to separate fantasy from reality. "Porn influences people negatively... Not me, because I'm Oh-So-Enlightned, but everyone else, because they are obviously not nearly as smart as my brilliant self!".

Can we stop assuming that people are stupid? They aren't. Most of them might be uncultured, but they aren't stupid. 99% of the world can (and does) tell the difference between fantasy and reality.

I'm so f!@@ing tired of this holier-than-thou atittude...Saying porn causes body image issues and sets unrealistic expectations about sex is like saying The Matrix sets unrealistic expectations for learning kung fu and makes young martial artists feel bad about themselves because they don't look like Hollywood stars and can't dodge bullets!

And if are going to mention Japan, let's remember that even though rape is a very common theme in Japanese pornography, it's one of the nations with the lowest number of actual occurences of the crime in the world.

I posted a peer-reviewed scientific paper that disagrees with you on this very topic in this very thread.

Do you have any thing to backup your claims or is it just a gut feeling?


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Lemmy wrote:
Kalindlara wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
Saying porn causes body image issues and sets unrealistic expectations about sex is like saying The Matrix sets unrealistic expectations for learning kung fu and makes young martial artists feel bad about themselves because they don't look like Hollywood stars and can't dodge bullets!

Just touching on this point.

I'm not disagreeing with your larger point, but mainstream pornography is part of a much larger set of societal influences that cause body image issues. It's not the main culprit - I'd not even say top five - but it's still a part of how society can influence body image.

I'm speaking only about U.S. culture, by the way; I know we have an international community here, and I don't want to speak for other parts of the world. :)

However, I don't think anyone over... I dunno... 14~15 years believes that sex is like porn...

rents pizza delivery vehicle

I am an adult, dammit!

Silver Crusade Contributor

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Freehold DM wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
Kalindlara wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
Saying porn causes body image issues and sets unrealistic expectations about sex is like saying The Matrix sets unrealistic expectations for learning kung fu and makes young martial artists feel bad about themselves because they don't look like Hollywood stars and can't dodge bullets!

Just touching on this point.

I'm not disagreeing with your larger point, but mainstream pornography is part of a much larger set of societal influences that cause body image issues. It's not the main culprit - I'd not even say top five - but it's still a part of how society can influence body image.

I'm speaking only about U.S. culture, by the way; I know we have an international community here, and I don't want to speak for other parts of the world. :)

However, I don't think anyone over... I dunno... 14~15 years believes that sex is like porn...

rents pizza delivery vehicle

I am an adult, dammit!

Do you deliver late-night?

...

Asking for a friend...


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Kalindlara wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
Kalindlara wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
Saying porn causes body image issues and sets unrealistic expectations about sex is like saying The Matrix sets unrealistic expectations for learning kung fu and makes young martial artists feel bad about themselves because they don't look like Hollywood stars and can't dodge bullets!

Just touching on this point.

I'm not disagreeing with your larger point, but mainstream pornography is part of a much larger set of societal influences that cause body image issues. It's not the main culprit - I'd not even say top five - but it's still a part of how society can influence body image.

I'm speaking only about U.S. culture, by the way; I know we have an international community here, and I don't want to speak for other parts of the world. :)

However, I don't think anyone over... I dunno... 14~15 years believes that sex is like porn...

rents pizza delivery vehicle

I am an adult, dammit!

Do you deliver late-night?

...

Asking for a friend...

sets black manliness to old spice guy levels

I do indeed work the night shift.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
MMCJawa wrote:
Joynt Jezebel wrote:


I am going to have to withdraw my original post.
I had a look at the research. It is a mess of competing claims. One article that seemed better referenced and thorough to me is here http://www.christopherjferguson.com/pornography.pdf.
Contrary to what I thought, the rate of rape in Japan is low. And while porn became more available in the US and Australia in the 90s and 2000s the rate of rape was falling in these countries, much of the time anyway. And the availability of largely unregulated porn on the internet since the 90s hasn't resulted in...

Something to keep in mind if you are comparing incidence of rape in the US versus Japan, is that Japan is very very much behind the West in how incidents of rape are dealt with by the law enforcement community. So rape is probably under-reported and under-prosecuted

attitudes toward rape in Japan

Not that I think porn really has anything to do with Japan's cultural issues with rape. It's probably appropriate to mention here that a lot of pornographic material from Japan that shows up stateside really is not indicative of its popularity in its country of origin.

I said something very similar about Japan and rape in a later post of my own. It is impossible for anyone to say absolutely definitively how many rapes occur anywhere, or what causes it.

On Japanese porn, I don't know. Rape is a theme in a lot of Japanese writing and media, and often rape that the woman enjoys once she gets into it. Exactly what is the reason for this, or the degree to which it influences behavior towards women I don't know. I certainly find it disturbing.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Freehold DM wrote:
Kalindlara wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
Kalindlara wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
Saying porn causes body image issues and sets unrealistic expectations about sex is like saying The Matrix sets unrealistic expectations for learning kung fu and makes young martial artists feel bad about themselves because they don't look like Hollywood stars and can't dodge bullets!

Just touching on this point.

I'm not disagreeing with your larger point, but mainstream pornography is part of a much larger set of societal influences that cause body image issues. It's not the main culprit - I'd not even say top five - but it's still a part of how society can influence body image.

I'm speaking only about U.S. culture, by the way; I know we have an international community here, and I don't want to speak for other parts of the world. :)

However, I don't think anyone over... I dunno... 14~15 years believes that sex is like porn...

rents pizza delivery vehicle

I am an adult, dammit!

Do you deliver late-night?

...

Asking for a friend...

sets black manliness to old spice guy levels

I do indeed work the night shift.

* Cues up bad seventies funk-jazz for Freehold.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Rape fantasies are a decidedly odd phenomenon. Both male AND female such. From Bollywood movies marketed to women that sell firmly on "the first underwater rape" - usually thought to be an expression of dealing with guilt and responsibility - to scenes where a man rapes a woman - but she then enjoys it. Odd stuff. I mean, if a man wants to imagine raping a woman, wouldn't it go against the idea if she enjoyed it? Even so, rape fantasies are extremely common. What is quite clear, though, is that there is no obvious increase in sexual crimes with increased access to porn of various stripes. This would be clear independent of uncertain numbers, varying definitions of rape, and so on. If it has an effect, it is apparently not enough to push people past the boundary of sexual crimes in any appreciable numbers.

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Does porn lead to rape? I don't think it's a very answerable question. I also don't think it's the right one.

A more relevant question is does porn contribute to a culture of treating women as objects? Does it's portrayal of sex, women, men feed the urge of men to call out to women they see on the street? Do the members of NAMBLA watch child pornography when they gather together? What's the difference between the hard porn of videos, and the soft porn of NcSoft video games in how they influence the environment?

There's been a very vocal pushback from within the gamer community against the recent self generated reforms in game authorship. I suspect that all of these have some connection with each other.


Maybe I missed it somewhere... But I never saw a porn flick where a man calling out to a woman on the street led to sex or was portrayed as anything positive. Admittedly, I am no connoisseur. I have seen other, decidedly odd, things with that effect in porn, though, so who knows?


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Sissyl wrote:
Maybe I missed it somewhere... But I never saw a porn flick where a man calling out to a woman on the street led to sex or was portrayed as anything positive. Admittedly, I am no connoisseur. I have seen other, decidedly odd, things with that effect in porn, though, so who knows?

A doesn't have to lead directly to B in order to make a point. It is one contributing factor amoung many that contribute to "female bodies exist solely for my enjoyment," mindset of young men.

Disclaimer: 2 points, not every male has this attitude and many (read all) men with this attitude will either deny it or be unaware of it. That doesn't make it not true, and it has been systematically proven true over and over.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I don't see anything wrong with rape fantasies. Humans fantasize about all sorts of thing that we would hate to experience IRL. Just see how many people are excited about the idea of a zombie apocalypse. I doubt any significant number of them would actually enjoy losing their families and friends to undead cannibals... Hell! We're on a forum dedicated to a game of fantasizing about getting into all sorts of violent situations... which oftrn end with the mauling and death of player characters!

That's thr thing about fantasy... It's safe. We can imagine whatever we want and make it pleasing because it has no consequences. I had a girlfriend who enjoyed roleplaying rape... It was... odd, but harmless. We had a safe word, just in case it became too real, but it was never used. She actually complained I was too nice... I guess that's a good thing. :P

Anyway, my point is that fantasy exista specifically so that we can safely experience stuff we can't live through in our lives.There is nothing wrong woth fantasizing about whatever. People only need to be aware that real life doesn't match fantasy (and most people are) and there is nothing wrong with that.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

BTW, every piece of media influences people... But unless someone consumes it in excessive amounts (because anything in excess is harmful), blaming one or another type of media for an increase of negative behavior is foolish at best and dishonest at worse.

All my life I've seen people accuse one thing or another of causing violent or degenerare behavior... RPGs, Rock n' Roll, porn, movies, video games, comics, Harry Potter... None of those ever had anything solid to back up their claims... Millions of people enjoyed all of those and they didn't become any more violent or degenerate than people who didn't.

So, yeah... I simply don't buy the "porn leads to [random negative behavior]" argument. If anything leads to that it most certainly is ignorance, misinformation and poor socio-economical conditions.

anedocal tale:
I know it's just anedoctal evidence... But my teenager life was spent in Brazil. On my first job, I had more than a few coworkers who came from really poor backgrounds and dropped school really early, but even the teenagers among them usually joked about porn saying stuff like "Hah! Too bad those girls 'don't exist' IRL... Well at least that means I don't need a 3ft dick! LOL!". There was always a very clear understanding that what they saw onscreen is nothing like the real thing, nor is it supposed to be. I don't think any of them would say that hurt their self-esteem or confidence. They just enjoyed the fantasy-fulfilling media and then went on to live their life, completely conscious and indiferent to the fact that it doesn't match fiction... Even though they were the perfect example of people who are supposedly influenced by whatever media is being blamed for whatever behavior

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Lemmy wrote:
I don't see anything wrong with rape fantasies. Humans fantasize about all sorts of thing that we would hate to experience IRL. Just see how many people are excited about the idea of a zombie apocalypse. I doubt any significant number of them would actually enjoy losing their families and friends to undead cannibals..

I suspect the main appeal is the total destruction of civil authority. You can pretty much do whatever you want if you're strong enough, despite all the negative connotations of the situation, it's a pretty strong power fantasy. In fact many of the antagonists, and quite a few of the protagonists are people who lose themselves into that fantasy.


BigDTBone wrote:
Lemmy wrote:

I still find it funny how the "but it influences people!" crowd never seem to inude themselves in their claims... Nope. It's always everyone else who is too stupid to separate fantasy from reality. "Porn influences people negatively... Not me, because I'm Oh-So-Enlightned, but everyone else, because they are obviously not nearly as smart as my brilliant self!".

Can we stop assuming that people are stupid? They aren't. Most of them might be uncultured, but they aren't stupid. 99% of the world can (and does) tell the difference between fantasy and reality.

I'm so f!@@ing tired of this holier-than-thou atittude...Saying porn causes body image issues and sets unrealistic expectations about sex is like saying The Matrix sets unrealistic expectations for learning kung fu and makes young martial artists feel bad about themselves because they don't look like Hollywood stars and can't dodge bullets!

And if are going to mention Japan, let's remember that even though rape is a very common theme in Japanese pornography, it's one of the nations with the lowest number of actual occurences of the crime in the world.

I posted a peer-reviewed scientific paper that disagrees with you on this very topic in this very thread.

Do you have any thing to backup your claims or is it just a gut feeling?

Tell me... What do you think is more likely? That those people were (consciously or not) speaking what matches their spiritual beliefs and whatxthey thought the scientists

151 to 200 of 397 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Gamer Life / Off-Topic Discussions / Pornography: Destructive Entertainment? Or Good Times? Somewhere in Between? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.