Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
|
While the warehouse fire was well deserved, you see aspis agents act pretty despicably in plenty of scenarios.
I recently played a scenario where they had enslaved a tribe of lizardfolk by stealing and their eggs and holding them ransom.
So following the old Indiana Jones analogue... the aspis are pretty much Nazis or work with them.
We do have some pretty good reason to feel such childlike delight, when we can strike back against them (a scenarios where we can strike back at a select number of venture captains seems to be elusive so far).
They're basically the Mob, right?
|
|
| 11 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm really looking forward to the upcoming Aspis scenario. I expect the mission will be multipart:
1. Rescue those kittens from a burning building;
2. Bring candy and treats to terminally ill orphan children in the hospital;
3. Transport a cauldron of plenty to a starving village.
Meanwhile, the pathfinders are given the following missions:
1. Set fire to the pet store so as to divert attention from your breaking in to the church next door.
2. The cleric who runs the children's hospital has a McGuffin of Healing. Convince him that we need it so these 10 rich guys can put it in their vault.
3. Some Aspis agents are trying to feed a village. If you kill them, you can have their stuff.
|
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm getting really tired of the "Pathfinders are evil" nonsense threads, but this one really takes the cake. Aspis are evil. If your GM didn't make that clear it was either because the author assumes that players know that in writing the adventure, or your GM didn't make that clear enough in the fluff of the scenario.
As to Pathfinders being evil? That's usually up to the party, and is decided in how they choose to go about solving the challenges. If you adventure with psychopath PCs, or play with players that don't like RP and just look at PF as a set of mechanics (and solve things in whatever illegal, immoral, or violent way is most expedient), then yeah, you might think that Pathfinders are the bad guys. Pathfinder Society is a NEUTRAL organization. They have good, neutral, and evil members. The Decemvirate doesn't care about your morals as long as you can get the job done well.
|
|
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
Pathfinders= british museum. They will make off with your cultural heritage.
Aspis= Dutch east india company. They will get you addicted to drugs, sell you weapons so you can fight the government trying to stop them, and then sell the government even more weapons so they can put down your rebellion.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
There are two things I can't stand.
1) intolerance
2) the dutch
In case anyone missed it that's a line from one of the Austin Powers movies. I have no strong feelings in any way for or against the dutch.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Pathfinder Society = what the authors and developers design for us.
Aspis Consortium = the way some people play in spite of the design. </tongue partially in cheek>
Seriously: a lot of the way things are portrayed comes down to the style of your GM and, even more, the style of your players. I know some players that embrace the Pathfinder Society lore, and others that look at PFS as basically a tactical wargame; I know others who ignore the Society "fluff" and just use it as a way to play Pathfinder in a big group. Nothing wrong with any of those option, but I daresay the Society will "feel" different in each case.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Recently played a scenario, a few actually, where the Aspis were portrayed as just very successful merchants essentially.
We blew up their warehouse. So with this in mind, and the attitude of many pathfinders.... are we the bad guys here? Because not gonna lie, we seem like the bad guys.
I believe we just played one of these scenarios last night. It all seemed like the Aspis were just honest businessmen. Then the bard used Linguistics to check the warehouse workers' contracts, and my monk popped an elixir of vision to pump her Perception bonus to +27...well, let's just say it wasn't quite as innocent as it seemed.
Doing bad things while maintaining the appearance of trustworthy, ethical people? Now that's some high grade, professional quality evil, right there.
|
Since it's been mentioned that Andoran failed in being the good guys, I'll say that I'd love to see the Silver Crusade fall to the dark side.
Oddly, only some Andorens fell. Most of us are the good guys.
Silver Crusade is what you get when someone who thinks that there are too many factions starts a new faction.
|
Pathfinder Society = what the authors and developers design for us.
Aspis Consortium = the way some people play in spite of the design.
Oh I've given up all pretense. This character right here is my first core character and is a Norgorber (Reaper of Reputation) worshiping mercenary who works for the Aspis Consortium in an 'exchange program' of sorts with The Exchange. How to I play him? Like your average money grubbing (former) Sczarni faction member who does everything for a profit.
And he's not even a murderhobo. He has his very own estate in Cheliax.
|
Since it's been mentioned that Andoran failed in being the good guys, I'll say that I'd love to see the Silver Crusade fall to the dark side.
Fall? I think they've been there the whole time. All those poor, stupid paladins gathering those powerful evil objects together just because someone shiny asked them nicely.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
We are told the Pathfinder Society are the good guys, or well, they are Neutral. We are also told the Aspis are evil bad guys. But not really shown much to back that up.
As an organization, the Pathfinder Society really just comes down to "Do whatever it takes to get it done." Like any organization, including a tidbit like "if you can also manage to help _______, (we could use them later)", isn't really something that an Evil organization wouldn't also do if they are smart.
Since the beginning, they have, as a group, sought to steal anything they think is worth having, its just not really based on GP value, and make it a mission statement to break in and go to places they have no right to or have been officially exiled from, under the idea that they know best.
So far, they seem to be the definition of evil as an organization, ends justify the means, whatever it takes, regardless of who it hurts or offends, and generally tend to use a targets weakness as a method to gain what they want, 90% or more of the time that means theft or thuggery, because no one else is worthy enough, and that includes stealing from good gods.
What we are told and what we are shown are two very, very different things.
|
|
As an organization, the Pathfinder Society really just comes down to "Do whatever it takes to get it done." Like any organization, including a tidbit like "if you can also manage to help _______, (we could use them later)", isn't really something that an Evil organization wouldn't also do if they are smart.
Except the society doesn't let most of its members go evil.
Since the beginning, they have, as a group, sought to steal anything they think is worth having, its just not really based on GP value, and make it a mission statement to break in and go to places they have no right to or have been officially exiled from, under the idea that they know best.
Thats a mater of legality, not morality.
What we are told and what we are shown are two very, very different things.
All fair, but that still doesn't make pathfinders as bad as the aspis, who are apt to slaughter the entire villiage to leave no witnesses to their stealing, or enslaving the entire villiage to dig something out for them.
|
|
PFS doesn't allow Players to PLAY evil, but the organization absolutely endorses it, as long as it doesn't hurt their image. There are scenarios that do say leave no one alive.
I also would say it is both a measure of legality and morality as it demonstrates that the PFS places their goals and desires above everyone else. The desires of the few over the needs of the many.
Something to also consider on the Aspis, its very rare to see them except as direct antagonists to the PF "heroes", which I think taints it a great deal. Not saying the are not evil, just its very difficult to argue in a comparative sense.
|
There is at least one scenario that if failed has you tortured by the Aspis for little more than being Pathfinders.
The Aspis seem to be represented as a more selfish, greedy, and unscrupulous parallel to the Pathfinders.
Yeah. I've never been so happy to have a section of a chronicle sheet crossed out as that one.
|
...
So far, they seem to be the definition of evil as an organization, ends justify the means, whatever it takes, regardless of who it hurts or offends, and generally tend to use a targets weakness as a method to gain what they want, 90% or more of the time that means theft or thuggery, because no one else is worthy enough, and that includes stealing from good gods.
What we are told and what we are shown are two very, very different things.
Point 1: Ends justify the means, is the definition of Chaotic Good.
Point 2: One thing is clear to me, you and I are playing very different games. Sure there has been the occasional questionable mission, but by far the missions have been neutral or even good in nature. From what I remember.
|
|
...
So far, they seem to be the definition of evil as an organization, ends justify the means, whatever it takes, regardless of who it hurts or offends, and generally tend to use a targets weakness as a method to gain what they want, 90% or more of the time that means theft or thuggery, because no one else is worthy enough, and that includes stealing from good gods.
What we are told and what we are shown are two very, very different things.
Point 1: Ends justify the means, is the definition of Chaotic Good.
Point 2: One thing is clear to me, you and I are playing very different games. Sure there has been the occasional questionable mission, but by far the missions have been neutral or even good in nature. From what I remember.
Point 1: Also the definition of Lawful Evil, Lawful Neutral, Chaotic Evil and Chaotic Neutral.
Point 2: Maybe one of the seasons was a little better that all the others?
|
|
Both organizations are grave robbing, murdering, strong arming, meddling organizations, supporting or supported by organized crime, directed by secret leadership to achieve their own shadowy ends.
One just happens to be portrayed as the foil for the other.
Neither would seem to be candidates for sainthood, even if the occasional member could make the claim.
So, basically they are like any other political parties.
|
|
Pretty much. We just are not presented with any Good aligned Aspis Agents, and only occasionally Neutral ones.
The funny thing is, the Aspis Consortium, in some ways, would actually serve the Player Base as a jumping off point better than the Pathfinder Society. You report to your silver or gold agent for a mission, where there are no assumptions/pretensions about morality, and there is a built in ranking system on merit.
The focus is, as a matter of personal achievement, accomplishing an objective while also striving to disprove the Aspis's (still deserved) bad reputation. The issue is, because the Aspis essentially operate by cells rather than a collective army, its very difficult as there are just as many bad apples just out for themselves as there are those just trying to make a name or a buck.
And all to often, those dang Pathfinders get in the way, or, and as they are so likely to do, try to come in after the Aspis has done all the work and steal the reward, (yep, true story).
But unlike the PFS, the Aspis is not generally lead by bumbling idiots, (ie the Venture-Captains whose main purpose is to show their laziness, ineptitude, and anger the PLAYERS Eleminister-style).
Within the Aspis, there are of course, different factions and agendas, some honestly wanting to use the organization for honorable and noble causes, others wanting to study certain groups of ancient lore and relics, and others wanting to open more avenues of "legitimate", um, um business.
But, for everyone that wants to push their own agenda, good or not so much, there are two other agents just in it for the money and power, and tend to give the organization as a whole a bad name.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Both organizations are grave robbing, murdering, strong arming, meddling organizations, supporting or supported by organized crime, directed by secret leadership to achieve their own shadowy ends.
One just happens to be portrayed as the foil for the other.
Neither would seem to be candidates for sainthood, even if the occasional member could make the claim.
So, basically they are like any other political parties.
As in that one is objectively worse than the other but people keep bringing out this line?
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Pretty much. We just are not presented with any Good aligned Aspis Agents, and only occasionally Neutral ones.
The funny thing is, the Aspis Consortium, in some ways, would actually serve the Player Base as a jumping off point better than the Pathfinder Society. You report to your silver or gold agent for a mission, where there are no assumptions/pretensions about morality, and there is a built in ranking system on merit.
The focus is, as a matter of personal achievement, accomplishing an objective while also striving to disprove the Aspis's (still deserved) bad reputation. The issue is, because the Aspis essentially operate by cells rather than a collective army, its very difficult as there are just as many bad apples just out for themselves as there are those just trying to make a name or a buck.
And all to often, those dang Pathfinders get in the way, or, and as they are so likely to do, try to come in after the Aspis has done all the work and steal the reward, (yep, true story).
But unlike the PFS, the Aspis is not generally lead by bumbling idiots, (ie the Venture-Captains whose main purpose is to show their laziness, ineptitude, and anger the PLAYERS Eleminister-style).
Within the Aspis, there are of course, different factions and agendas, some honestly wanting to use the organization for honorable and noble causes, others wanting to study certain groups of ancient lore and relics, and others wanting to open more avenues of "legitimate", um, um business.
But, for everyone that wants to push their own agenda, good or not so much, there are two other agents just in it for the money and power, and tend to give the organization as a whole a bad name.
"Why are you here, Pathfinder!?"
"Sir, I'm here to unveil the secrets of the past!""WHY ARE YOU REALLY HERE?!"
"I CAME HERE BECAUSE THERE ARE NO HOME GAMES WITH ROOM!"
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
"Why are you here, Pathfinder!?"
"Sir, I'm here to unveil the secrets of the past!"
"WHY ARE YOU REALLY HERE?!"
"I CAME HERE BECAUSE THERE ARE NO HOME GAMES WITH ROOM!"
The first time someone told me this, I died a little inside.
Thankfully, I hear it very rarely.
(I'll welcome anyone to the table, but it breaks my fluff-filled little heart to hear someone say that the only reason they're playing a "pathfinder" is that it's a requirement of the campaign, and that they otherwise couldn't care less.)