Gunslinger and RoF

[Tryn]

Hi,
I really like the concept of the gunslinger but I have a problem with the rate of fire of this class.
I'm one of this players/DMs who like a game which have some realisitic roots to build up.

The gunslinger is a problem here.
Flint lock guns the normal weapons of the gunslinger) had a historical rate of fire around 3-4 round per minute (and that was already fast).
In Pathfinder a gunslinger shots up to 40 round per minute (at level 20 without and magic items 4 per round (6 seconds)).

Did anyone else have an issue with it?
Did anyone has an idea how to "fix" it?

I'm thinking of raising the base damage based on the gunslinger level, so instead of doing 2 attacks each with 1d12+X at level 6 he do one attack with 2d12+X damage (Higher damage due to more precise shooting because of more experience with the weapon)
Which would also fit here would be that this "increased damage" only applies if a full roudn action is used (carefull aim).
If the weapon is used in a standard action the normal weapon damage will be used (shoot from the hip).

Any thoughts on this?

[Bradley Mickle]

Actually, it's a move action to reload. Even with Rapid Reload and the Lightning Reload grit ability, that's 2 shots per round (that lowers the reload to a free action once a round per barrel). So 2 rounds for the 10 rounds in a minute, that's 20 shots.

It's still not ultra-realistic, but that's a highly advanced fighter in the game (being level 11 for lightning reload). Rapid Reload feat makes it a move action. Normally, reloading a one handed weapon firearm is a standard action. Which would knock it down to 5 rounds a minute without that.

[Cyrad]

In the context of realism, I don't have much of a problem with the rate of fire because you're playing fantastical characters. By definition, a 20th level character is capable of things only possible in tall tales and epic poems in our world. In the real world, an extraordinary human peaks at 5th level. The math of the game is centered arouind this. If you want to play a more gritty and realistic campaign, you have the option of making characters not progress beyond 5th level.

My biggest problem has to do with Musket Master. I really hate that archetype. The firearms designer went out of his way to create a trade-off between one-handed and two-handed firarms. Musket Master completely throws all of that out the window. A free-action reloading musket is better than a pistol in every way.

As a result, I created my own house rules for firearms that changes Musket Master so it instead grants the Vital Strike feat line. This gives two-handed firearms the niche of attacking once per round with very powerful shots.

[Bradley Mickle]

Rapid Reload feat on a musket lowers the reload from a Full Round action to a standard action (that provokes an attack of opportunity). With the Lightning Grit, that removes the AoO and lowers it to one free action each round (I read that as not getting it lowered once per round, after that, back to a move action)

Feat:

Lightning Reload (Ex): At 11th level, as long as the
gunslinger has at least 1 grit point, she can reload a single
barrel of a one-handed or two-handed firearm as a swift
action once per round. If she has the Rapid Reload feat or
is using an alchemical cartridge (or both), she can reload
a single barrel of the weapon as a free action each round
instead. Furthermore, using this deed does not provoke
attacks of opportunity.

[Tryn]

@Cyrad: like your house rules and yes the musket master is the reason for this post. :)

[Bradley Mickle]

I'm going to point out that at level 6, a musket master still can only fire once per round unless he has a double-barreled musket. Remember, Rapid Reload of a one handed firearm (which a musket is for a musket master) is still a move action. So that's one shot/round. By giving them Vital Strike, you're actually increasing their damage. Even a level 20 musket master only fires 2x/rnd.

But if you feel it's better to double their damage on the higher first attack rather than letting them roll twice, it's pretty much a wash at level 11 anyway. Of course, with Vital Strike and Rapid Reload feat of a musket, and Lightning Strike, you've given me (as a player) a free 1d12 damage. You have to eliminate Lightning Strike as an ability option too. And at what point does it just become easier to say they can't play the class?

[Cyrad]

Tryn wrote:

@Cyrad: like your house rules and yes the musket master is the reason for this post. :)

Thank you. It's a shame, really. Spamming ranged attacks is such an integral part of the game. Ultimate Combat had a chance to change that with something new, but sadly, not so.

Bradley Mickle wrote:

Rapid Reload feat on a musket lowers the reload from a Full Round action to a standard action (that provokes an attack of opportunity). With the Lightning Grit, that removes the AoO and lowers it to one free action each round (I read that as not getting it lowered once per round, after that, back to a move action)

** spoiler omitted **

Two words: paper cartridges. Alchemical cartridges reduce the reload time by one step, stacking with Rapid Reload. They're a staple for gunslingers.

[Bradley Mickle]

So home rule that you can't lower reload below a swift action. Stacking reload speed decreases does seem a bit extreme.

[Puna'chong]

Bradley Mickle wrote:

So home rule that you can't lower reload below a swift action. Stacking reload speed decreases does seem a bit extreme.

We nearly had to do this for our level 6 Musket Master. He was getting a lot of shots off and they almost always hit, provided he didn't misfire, and the damage he could put out was pretty nasty compared to the other damage dealers in the party. Especially considering he didn't really have to ever move to get his damage off. Thankfully the player got bored of the one-note class and decided to switch to another before long.

I would recommend that Move > Free be changed to Move > Swift > Free. That means that a Musket Master goes:

Full-Round > Standard (Rapid Reload)
Standard > Move (Fast Musket)
Move > Swift (Alchemical/Paper Cartridge)

[Opuk0]

It doesn't need fixing, if anything, reload speeds are wholly unnecessary in a game like Pathfinder. You really can't pull the realism card here, because you're not really here for realism here.

If hitting touch AC is really that much of a problem to you, maybe don't have enemies within the gunslingers first increment? It's not that hard, and there's also a million and one ways to shutdown a gunslinger.

[Puna'chong]

Opuk0 wrote:

It doesn't need fixing, if anything, reload speeds are wholly unnecessary in a game like Pathfinder. You really can't pull the realism card here, because you're not really here for realism here.

If hitting touch AC is really that much of a problem to you, maybe don't have enemies within the gunslingers first increment? It's not that hard, and there's also a million and one ways to shutdown a gunslinger.

Reload speed IS in Pathfinder, though, and it's the way they initially set out to balance guns, along with misfire chance and small range increments. Mechanically, that's required, or else the guns are firing just as many shots as a bow with better accuracy and higher damage. Hitting touch AC is fine, but within certain parties and against certain groups of enemies (especially for APs) the damage can come on fast and hard, with little chance to miss, and a free reload speed exacerbates that.

Not having enemies within the first range increment seems like a bizarre way to try and do every combat with a party, just to keep the gunslinger down. Do we not have melee combat anymore? Is the difference between a +12 and a +10 to hit a touch AC of 14 really that big? And when guns are rare, most monsters and creatures don't have gunslinger-specific trump cards lying around.

[Arrius]

If you're looking for realism, you'd probably notice that static firearm weapon damage is not what you'd exactly call realistic--nor is a Gunslinger sticking with the same weapon without improving it.
It's balanced (or it can be argued to be), but there's the rub: you can't customize your own weaponry under normal design.

To be honest, I don't like how Pathfinder handles technological rules: of all things, it should have the most customization--maybe even a subsystem in line of the Eidolon-Summoner subsystem.

The nearest system I found that fills that niche is the Technological Item creation rules of White Wolf's 3.5 World of Warcraft RPG. Under those rules, you customize your device's properties (damage, range, etc.) by a point system that influences the final cost, with a maximum amount of points per value equal to your 'tinker' level.
Now the system as printed is clunky and needs streamlining, but it can be cleaned up: I'm doing so myself. One can add spell-like effects, and the firearms in question are specified to act as weapons for the purposes of feats and spells.

This is how my post is relevant:

1: Reload Speed:
Muskets (or any two-handed firearm, generally) take 1 standard action to reload under the rules. With the rate of fire, we generally approach the historical rate of reload speed.
One-handed firearms reload at a move action.

This can be modified by feats.

2: Properties:
Due to customization, damage/range/effect escalation has the possibility to be stronger than base weapons--which is not far off. At level 2, the gun would deal 1d6, but one can invest their points for damage for a maximum of 10d6 at level 20 without feats, and a possibly 14d6 with them: for one shot!

This leads to dizzying numbers, so I've established a mechanic for multiple successful attack rolls: They deal 20% more damage per hit.

Although this is not in line with current technological weaponry under PF, this can inspire something in the discussion.

Cyrad wrote:

Thank you. It's a shame, really. Spamming ranged attacks is such an integral part of the game. Ultimate Combat had a chance to change that with something new, but sadly, not so.

What do you have in mind?

[raven1272]

I've had similar issues with firearms. For my own houserules, I've pulled in rules much closer to d20 past (d20 modern).

The short version is that reloading a barrel is 3 full rounds. Rapid reload brings it down to two. However, I raise the damage to double or triple of their listed values.

This brings the spirit of the game to be more inline with history. Guns are used only once or twice a fight. And, they can be deadly. It also makes the vital strike feat chain much more desirable. When you can do 10 or 12 d6/d8 at high levels, that is more like what we think a gun should do.

So, first round burst damage goes up. To balance this, make sure enemies have firearms as well. And, try and use more enemies at once. For example, if a party of 4 all use firearms, and focus on the same target, it will likely die. Make sure the party faces 4-5 armed enemies and then the party is in the same fix.

In my own group, that caused people to avoid gunfghts more. Or, at least they took things more seriously when gacing down a group of thugs that had their guns out first.

[Cyrad]

I'm not going to entangle myself in an argument about realism. This is a fantasy game, after all. If you want a more realistic campaign, limit the levels to 5th level and disallow alchemical cartridges.

The biggest problem I have with firearm rules lies with the fact the designers could not decide whether to have firearms be realistic or fun. In the end, they tried to straddle a mid-point and ultimately made firearms both unfun and unrealistic. Worse is that they attached a broken game mechanic designed to help wizards hit things (touch attacks) to the weapons and gave them to a full BAB martial class.

Arrius wrote:

Cyrad wrote:

Thank you. It's a shame, really. Spamming ranged attacks is such an integral part of the game. Ultimate Combat had a chance to change that with something new, but sadly, not so.

What do you have in mind?

Um, the firearm houserules I made? The ones I pointed out earlier in this thread? Where musket masters get vital strike early?

I thought about making an artificer class that works like your suggestion. The class gets a device they can customize as they level up. It deals more damage and they can attach new effects on it.

[boring7]

A thought occurs regarding double-barreled weapons; if firing the second barrel was a swift action (thus limiting you to one per round, or using them as part of your iterative attacks) would that be too far, just right, or not enough?

[ErisAcolyte-Chaos jester]

I wonder if gunslingers with revolvers could get the option to 'fan the hammer' but at the risk of breaking the gun and with an accuracy penalty. This gives them a massive number of shots(up to the number of loaded chambers on the weapon) but can only be done with a free hand(so no two gun gunslinger shenanigans).

[Azothath]

okay... how to balance out Gunslinger Class in a home game...

#1) rule that the number of free actions in a round is limited by your DEX bonus. This really just means that archers, gunslingers etc need a high dexterity, which is par for the course.
Feats (such as Quickdraw, Two Weapon Fighting) will of course trump this general rule for their specific effect.

#2) when you fire a gun the barrel heats up and expands. This has 2 effects; accuracy decreases and misfires increase.
So this depends on time, firing the gun, the gun cooling down(mass). Let's say that for a pistol every second shot (within a minute or 10 rounds) adds +1 to the penalty or
modifier = -RoundDown[# of shot/(2{pistol}, 3{rifle})] +RoundDown[time since first shot/(10{pistol}, 20{rifle}) rnd]

2a) accuracy: Given the way range increments work (which is about accuracy) the penalty should be divided by the range increment (in 10 ft measures) or RoundDown[modifier/(range increment/10)]. This is going to be minor so I'd handwave it away unless you are doing 4 or more shots per round.

2b) misfire: go with the base penalty.
This basically means that gunslingers will be carrying extra weapons but that IS going to slow down their overall rate of fire. There was a reason wealthy hunters shot, handed the weapon to their porter while the porter handed them a reloaded spare weapon.

clearly adding the magical frost weapon ability will counter any heating issues, so that's a +1 enhancement bonus to make this go away. However, how are you going to successfully light the charge? so I'd say frost adds a +2 to misfire, icy burst a +4 to misfire.

#3) firing ammunition leaves hot cinders in the barrel and if you stick a charge in there guess what - yes, it goes bang. This is why you see old timey gun users putting that rod down the barrel and cleaning it out. A main reason why brass cartridges were a godsend to rate of fire. Thus reloading is a pain in the butt and takes a standard action. This will have a serious impact to the class. While it's realistic for gun usage there are/should be game mechanics around it (see above posts). There should be a magical enhancement (like Adaptive) to get around it. In modern guns this problem is overcome by using brass cartridges.

again, frost/icy burst will negate this problem but has impacts on firing the weapon (see above).

[AwesomenessDog]

To go back to the original question, a way you may to try is just that it takes a fullround to reload, and rapid reload doesn't work on guns, you can fire as a standard and you do it as normal but if you fire as a standard action you only fire one bullet but because you spent a whole round to aim and fire the bullet fires like pummeling style.