Martial Revenge


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666bender wrote:

it all depends on items and initiative.

my level 15 can kill in 1 round ANY caster.
he is a lore warden, dip 2 into maneuver master monk.
he took eltritch heritage > arcane > improve familiar (azata) that carry 4 scrolls on her body.
2 are buffs used in regular fights on the fighter.
1 is D-door to get away
and 1 is....anti magic field.

the fighter's initiative is 4 (dex) + 2 (trait) + 4 (imp initiative) = +10. so, he MIGHT win the wizard .
azata cast anti magic field and fly into the wizard.
fighter go in and grapple .
game is over.

If this is all you have then no, you are still losing. That antimagic field also affects you, but I dont think it will ever come into play.


Bob Bob Bob wrote:

Whoa, wait, if you're going Savage Dirty Trick why the @#$% are you using Nauseated? You can get Dazed, the thing almost nothing is immune to and prevents you from taking any actions whatsoever.

As for providing builds, are you kidding me? Nobody has the time to make multiple 20th level wizards just for testing purposes. You can look at the two NPCs on d20pfsrd, there's a few builds floating around in comparison threads, but making builds just for someone else to pick apart... doesn't sound like a lot of fun. I suggest you doing it (making a build) and people can point out any glaring weaknesses in defenses or offense. Because a cleric literally gets access to their entire list, and a wizard only needs to pay for a scroll (blessed book is awesome) to get access to any spell. So you will possibly face every spell.

No creature type is immuned to dazed. I don't even know if any specific creatures are and to my knowledge no magic item exist that allows, but I have not looked over every item in the Ultimate Equipment book either.


Issac Daneil wrote:
Bob Bob Bob wrote:

Whoa, wait, if you're going Savage Dirty Trick why the @#$% are you using Nauseated? You can get Dazed, the thing almost nothing is immune to and prevents you from taking any actions whatsoever.

As for providing builds, are you kidding me? Nobody has the time to make multiple 20th level wizards just for testing purposes. You can look at the two NPCs on d20pfsrd, there's a few builds floating around in comparison threads, but making builds just for someone else to pick apart... doesn't sound like a lot of fun. I suggest you doing it (making a build) and people can point out any glaring weaknesses in defenses or offense. Because a cleric literally gets access to their entire list, and a wizard only needs to pay for a scroll (blessed book is awesome) to get access to any spell. So you will possibly face every spell.

Working on the build now.

I was drawn to Nauseated because of it's line regarding spells specifically. I'm not aware of if there is any special ability where you can cast spells as No action, but in case there was I was preferring Nauseated for it's spell shut down.
However, in the event that there are none, Dazed is a better option, agreed.

Spells at least require an immediate action. The only way I can think of to get a spell of on a dazed caster is if he was using a contingent spell, but the spell has to be 6th level or lower, and it also has to directly affect the caster so he can't set up a summon monster spell to bring in an outsider to cast a spell on him, as an example.


Maze is close range and only useful as ready action in this scenario. Any mounted character worth it's salt counter this with his own ready action using Rhino Charge. At worst, maze provoke a stand off so I'd really not worry about that one.

The wizard could actually get a fast moving mount but good luck casting mounted or while flying, there is a quite a hefty concentration check on that even if the wizard even have the skill ranks in both ride and fly.

Also, I see all this arguments for wizard casting this and that but the fact is that there is an action economy in the game. Each spells is an action, a standard one most the time. It's not like the martial character is not acting on his turn and there is the constant threat for the wizard to be insta impaled by the lance if he drop his guard one second.


Kletus Bob wrote:
The wizard could actually get a fast moving mount but good luck casting mounted or while flying, there is a quite a hefty concentration check on that even if the wizard even have the skill ranks in both ride and fly.

The DC for casting while subject to extremely violent motion caps at DC29 but that relates to trying to cast while subject to an earthquate or similar. Riding a galloping mount caps out at DC24. Riding a mount normally counts a vogorous motion and caps at DC19. These are trivial numbers to hit from the mid levels onwards.

Also I would place bets on the person more likely to have ranks in these skills as being the Int primary spell caster over the 2 skill point class which has little to no use for Int as a stat.


Cavaliers won't be beaten at riding by a wizard and have more than 2 skills point/lvl, even some fighters archetype actually have more.

The wizard also need a suitable combat trained mount or it's a DC20 ride skill on top of these concentration check you mentioned. Not even mentioning handling annimal. That's a lot of skill specialisation for a wizard that is not in other basic skills.

I'd also look at an optimized intimidate build for this kind of fight, which actually meshes well with cavalier cockatrice order. The antagonise feat would make sure the wizard can't ready an action or use teleport ( as it is not an attack ), which will really put a dent in the caster options. Actually, I'm going to look deeper into this, I remember quite a lot of commotion from casters about the initial version of that feat.


Mounts? The Wizard can just teleport close enough to Maze you as a Swift action long before you can try to Antagonize (You're not winning initiative remember?). And even if you do Antagonize the Wizard you are getting Mazed anyway. And by the time you get back, your mount will be dead and the Wizard is now immune to further use of Antagonize.


No ones conceded initiative to the wizard as an automatic thing. Only thing I see is wizard teleporting into the Rhino charge range and getting wacked before even using that swift action as the ready action goes off first.

Anyways, kind of a moot point if you are going to use magic items for initiative on top of the wizard class abilities and prevent any magic items on martial class. It need at least to be no magic items for both opponents.


Limited Wish + Geas + Neutral spellcaster = Profit?


Does your cavalier have Reactionary for +2 Initiative? Improved Initiative for +4? a familiar for another +4 Initiative? Heightened Awareness active for yet another +4 Initiative? A higher dex than your typical wizard? Some other initiative boosting method the wizard is unlikely to have? What if the wizard is a diviner with +1/2 level and taking 20 on initiative?

It isn't that it is impossible to beat a wizard's initiative. But a wizard's survivability and effectiveness depends a lot on going first no matter what opponents he face and who his allies are. So most wizards will invest heavily in initiative, and many characters will find it impossible to beat the wizard's initiative.

If you do win, how do you deal with Astral Projection/Clone? What protections does the cavalier have against scry&die tactics if the wizard comes back with a grudge? Do you have reliable way of returning from death to get your vengeance against a caster that killed you?

The reason players beat casters like Karzoug regularly, is because the GM and AP goes easy on them. And they do so because playing an Int 36 fullcaster is mind boggling and annoying, and has a ridiculously high chance of causing a TPK. There is a difference between having a character that is good at countering typical caster tricks in a real play situation and one who is a mage hunter, who has a career of hunting down and killing full casters permanently, and who lives to tell the tale, and then survives to tell about the ridiculously well prepared casters who tried to hunt the hunter once the hunter started bragging.


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Hey guys, weighing back in as the OP, with my lasting thoughts on all of this:

I had originally wanted to create a character that eschewed magic entirely, while remaining capable of combating mages. Something I wanted to clarify about that statement is that I never expected or demanded that this character (in my case a Mounted Fury Supersitious Human barbarian) be capable of soloing lvl 15+ Full Casters. I would have liked him to, and tried my best to achieve it, but I can see the limits of the idea, and the massive handicaps it self imposes. What I was really aiming for, was a way to counteract mage tactics in what ways I could. This was a Theory, rather then a concept I intended to fully play.

My own character was unable to out initative a Diviner Wizard, and therefore could not begin in Rage to unlock his defenses, or take his action to expose his Blightburn paste to try and counteract Maze. It would be a single instance of; Greater Teleport, Maze w/ Quicken Metamagic rod on Mount. Surprise round i s over. Round 1 begins.

I know this, and despite looking at were-animal rage powers for the edge, winning the initiative was simply not going to happen during that vital moment.
However, is this against a Foresighted Diviner. I do believe that the components I discovered and intended to use would be useful against different types of mages. Likely of lower levels, but that was a drawback I forced on myself. This is me essentially saying: "I didn't expect to win. I tried, but didn't."

What I wanted to bring up though is that there is nothing really wrong with this; it's a trope...if not THE trope of fantasy for magic to become the center stage; it's the Fantastic element that makes Fantasy into Fantasy.
If Pathfinder had had it were magic could be bested, at it's peak, by a merely extraordinary man, I would think that magic was getting underrepresented.

The tricks and arguments that were uncovered by everyone who participated in this thread HAVE helped me figure out how to challenge spell casters, once I allow the handicaps to come off; and that is a lesson for me that I thank you all for.

I also wanted to go out there and say; I don't have a hate on or anything for magic, or harbor a (Ex) fetish; my usual class choice is actually a tame Oracle build centered around one of Golarion's gods, tweaked each time.

Anyways; feel free to have at the topic more, even if I'm not gonna be weighing in as closely anymore. I'll still be interested to see the arguments for either side that come up.


To OP, it's true that whoever strikes first probably win. I can't really help with beating an optimized wizard initiative, but you could certainly get iniativet high enough to at least force a roll so it's not an auto lose. Keep in mind that even with initiative, that wizard needs to strike the very first round before you can ready action. So no buff round, no messing around, as it will allow you to play once and ready action ( my own example with rhino charge )

Also, you are tailoring for a specific dedicated purpose: kill mages. While an optimized wizard specifically designed to tackle your character will probably kill him, I can't see all wizards having everything discussed here, unless it's a nemesis or something.

I also think lots of the invincible wizard mechanic revolves around scrying + teleport or invisibility + fly. Scrying is in my opinion the main threath since it really gives your position, however there is ways to protect against it like a room/tent protected by a thin lead sheet. I even found an interesting debate here for lead armor: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rrfw?Adding-a-thin-sheet-of-lead-to-armor

Also, use the environment and game setting. For example, When I do DM, and without considering your specific case, I found the scrying - teleport very annoying but elected to say that wizards are not rarer than any other class, so theses tricks are common and well known by every city. Banks, major Inns, and most fortifications have protection in my setting, so do nobles on their person, be it basic lead sheets in the wall or stronger magical defenses. In fact, you can't teleport directly in any major city in that setting but that's my take on it. All that to say that It's important to understand that making casters a rare occurence only decuplate their power in any setting, while making them common keep them under control.


The Antimagic Army Design thread should give a few ideas. Also it includes the excellent Curious Case of a Sir Phineas Aldman, a PC story from actual play (3.5 though) with a concept similar to yours.

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