Small size, Swashbuckler, Tiny Weapon...


Rules Questions


Legitimately, a small sized creature could wield a tiny 2-handed weapon as a one-handed weapon. This much is certain. Now, assuming that this chosen 2-hander was a longspear, what happens?

- Does Swashbuckler's Finesse come into play?
- Does the Small creature gain reach to 10'?

Extra question... If this small creature were to cast reduce person on himself, how would this affect the reach aspect?

Thanks, ladies and gents!

Scarab Sages

By strict RAW Swashbuckler's Finesse doesn't work. Light, One-handed, and Two-Handed are distinct categories that are independent of the size of the wielder. A medium longspear is a two-handed weapon despite the fact that a large create can wield it one-handed. Likewise, a tiny longspear is a two-handed weapon despite the fact that a small creature can wield it one-handed or a medium creature can wield it as a light weapon.

However, the small creature would gain reach with the tiny longspear.

If they cast reduce person, the reach would still apply, but as being tiny they threaten 0 ft. They would be able to attack and threaten at 5' with the longspear.


Rehashing what Imbicatus said.

heyyon wrote:
Legitimately, a small sized creature could wield a tiny 2-handed weapon as a one-handed weapon.

At a -2 penalty for inappropriately sized weapons.

heyyon wrote:

Now, assuming that this chosen 2-hander was a longspear, what happens?

- Does Swashbuckler's Finesse come into play?

Swashbucklers Finesse requires the weapon to be a light or one handed weapon. By strict RAW a longspear is a two handed weapon since it is in the two handed weapon table. This argument has been hashed out in other threads.

heyyon wrote:
Does the Small creature gain reach to 10'?

Does the weapon have reach? Yes. As silly as this sounds, by RAW it gives the small critter 10ft reach.

That said, if a player rocked up at my table saying "hey I got this diminuative longspear, my halfling got 10ft reach!" I would shower them in boulders.

heyyon wrote:

Extra question... If this small creature were to cast reduce person on himself, how would this affect the reach aspect?

Normally a small critter has 0ft reach. with a reach weapon this extends to 5ft. This case is no different

So what do you gain for using a tiny longspear with your small critter? -2 to attacks, decrease in damage dice and a 10ft reach.

Sczarni

A tiny-sized creature wielding a reach weapon merely threatens adjacent squares.

This is spelled out nowhere, but is listed in a couple statblocks, and is intuitively how it should work.

But for those that play "it's not written anywhere, so it's not true", a tiny-sized creature gains no benefit by wielding a reach weapon.


It doesn't matter that the Longspear is a 2-h weapon. What matters is how you wield it. If you wield a dagger one size too big, it counts as a 1-h weapon so you can wield it 2-handed for extra str bonus. Likewise, it no longer counts as light for twf penalties. By the same token, a tiny longspear is wielded as if it were a 1-h weapon by a small creature. It counts as 1-handed for all rules elements concerned with use and wielding; though it still only has the HP, hardness, and other physical stats of a tiny longspear. This only doesn't work when the rules specify "properly sized" weapons (ie. jotungrip only works on 2-h weapons properly sized for you).


Your tiny longspear has the reach and damage of a shortspear but you take a -2 attack penalty wielding it.

Why not just use a shortspear without the attack penalty?


For reference:

See this post or even better see this post.

Scarab Sages

A tiny reach weapon has a reach of 5' greater than the creatures natural reach. To a tiny creature wielding a long spear, that is 0' for natural reach + 5' for the reach weapon for a total of 5'. For a small creature wielding a tiny longspear, that is 5' of natural reach + 5' for the reach weapon for a total of 10'.


Imbicatus wrote:
A tiny reach weapon has a reach of 5' greater than the creatures natural reach. To a tiny creature wielding a long spear, that is 0' for natural reach + 5' for the reach weapon for a total of 5'. For a small creature wielding a tiny longspear, that is 5' of natural reach + 5' for the reach weapon for a total of 10'.

So you're saying a tiny longspear has the same reach as a small longspear. They're the same length?

By this assumption, a longspear sized appropriately for my cat would be exactly as long as a longspear sized appropriately for a dwarf.

You don't see any flaws with that assumption?

James Jacobs said that tiny reach weapons allow a tiny creature to reach an adjacent square. Given that that tiny creature could be right on the edge of its own square (4 tiny creatures fit in a single square), so its reach with a longspear is basically just a few feet longer than its arms.

Put that same tiny longspear in the hands of a small humanoid who can reach, but only just, into the next square and add a few feet and now I don't see that adding up to a reach of 10'. It doesn't fit with what James Jacobs said and it doesn't make sense visually, either - unless that tiny longspear is the exact same length as a small longspear (which makes no sense at all).

RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

Regardless of where it reaches, keep in mind that Weapon Finesse explicitly doesn't work with inappropriately-sized weapons. So have fun using your Str bonus with a tiny-sized creature.

Scarab Sages

DM_Blake wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
A tiny reach weapon has a reach of 5' greater than the creatures natural reach. To a tiny creature wielding a long spear, that is 0' for natural reach + 5' for the reach weapon for a total of 5'. For a small creature wielding a tiny longspear, that is 5' of natural reach + 5' for the reach weapon for a total of 10'.

So you're saying a tiny longspear has the same reach as a small longspear. They're the same length?

By this assumption, a longspear sized appropriately for my cat would be exactly as long as a longspear sized appropriately for a dwarf.

You don't see any flaws with that assumption?

James Jacobs said that tiny reach weapons allow a tiny creature to reach an adjacent square. Given that that tiny creature could be right on the edge of its own square (4 tiny creatures fit in a single square), so its reach with a longspear is basically just a few feet longer than its arms.

Put that same tiny longspear in the hands of a small humanoid who can reach, but only just, into the next square and add a few feet and now I don't see that adding up to a reach of 10'. It doesn't fit with what James Jacobs said and it doesn't make sense visually, either - unless that tiny longspear is the exact same length as a small longspear (which makes no sense at all).

James Jacobs is not a rules guy. His word on Golarion Lore is gospel. His word on rules discussions is just how he would run it in his house rules.

As for the visuals, a Tiny weapon may not be a long as a small one, but is is long enough to add 5 feet of reach. Since it is light enough to be used in one hand, a small character can hold it at the end of the shaft to maximize the reach of the spear.


DM_Blake wrote:
So you're saying a tiny longspear has the same reach as a small longspear. They're the same length?

This is how reach works. It's calculated based on the size and natural reach of the wielder not the weapon's size. A medium creature wielding a large reach weapon has a 10' reach. A medium creature wielding a small reach weapon has a 10' reach. A small creature wielding a medium reach weapon has a 10' reach.

If you want to use a long spear as a Swashbuckler just dip 3 levels into Phalanx Soldier and use a buckler.


A medium Longspear is 8 feet long and allows a medium wielder to attack at 10 feet. A small Longspear is only 4 feet long, but still allows a Small wielder to attack out to 10 feet. By contrast, a Great sword is 5 feet long (longer than a Halfling's Longspear) but a Human can only attack at 5 feet while the Halfling cab attack at 10 feet. It isn't the length of the weapon that matters; its the balance. Reach weapons are balanced for reaching. So a Human wielding a 4 foot Halfling's Longspear can reach because the weapon is balanced for reaching attacks; not because of the length. If it were length that mattered, then a Halfling wielding a 4 foot Medium Bastard Sword should be able to reach because it's the same length as his 4 foot Small Longspear.


Exactly what I expected, but the rules of being below small size are murky. Thanks, folks!

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Small size, Swashbuckler, Tiny Weapon... All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.