An alchemist need some tips


Advice

Scarab Sages

We are starting an horrorific/lovecraft-like adventure, and i think the alchemist is one of the class that fits best in such type of campaign. I want nothing OP, but something that works well. Last time i played pathfinder i played a madbomber like alchemist, this time i want to play a Mr. Hyde alchemist, but i don t like vivisectionist( i love throwing bombs).

I want for sure the prestige class Master Chymist for fun.

There are some Houserules for the campain:

HR:

Alchemist
Those who dedicate their lives to the mysteries of chemistry and physiology are
generally only found in the most advanced domains, such as Dementlieu and Darkon (where
many gnomes are attracted to the obscure science). However, the domains of Lamordia and
Paridon are the true home of alchemy in the Land of the Mists. While it is not common even
there, it is at least widely enough known that schools for alchemy have been founded there. In
Nova Vaasa, this type of alchemy is forbidden.
Alchemists should be warned: they are interfering with the very foundations of self
and life. Few alchemists lead happy or long lives.
Mutagen – Upon drinking a mutagen, you must make a Will save (DC 10 + one fifth
your level + Int modifier + 2 per additional discovery applied) or your moral alignment
becomes evil until the mutagen wears off.
Cognatogen, dendrite mutagen – Upon drinking a cognatogen or dendrite mutagen,
you must make a Will save (DC 10 + half your level + Int modifier + 2 per additional
discovery applied) or you suffer a minor Madness effect until the effect wears off. You do not
suffer the ability damage associated with madness. The DC for this madness effect is equal to
the original Will save DC or the normal madness effect, whichever is lower.
Mummification, Nauseating Flesh, Plague Vial (Plague Bringer) – Using these
abilities is cause for a Powers check.
Obviously inhuman – Some discoveries create obviously inhuman changes in your
appearance. In these cases, the initial disposition of any non-evil humanoid (with some
exceptions at the GM’s discretion) is never better than hostile. These discoveries include
Parasitic Twin, Tentacle, Tumour Familiar, Vestigial Arm, and Wings, and the Beastform
mutagen of the Beastmorph archetype. These changes can be hidden with a Disguise check
(as disguising yourself as another species) unless otherwise noted.

Some tips? We start from lv 10.

Scarab Sages

Ah, and i have only 15 points for attributes... adn i really dont know how to put them


Well I am building a alchemist as we speak and the first thing I would recommend is to read this guide.

And once you have done that (or if you already have) I would use this point buy STR 16 DEX 12 CON 12 INT 14 WIS 10 CHA 7. This is before racial modifiers and level increases, I would put my level increase into str and pick a race that buffs int and another stat like con or dex as the only races that buff both STR and INt are lashunta and scaleheart skinwalkers.
I doubt your gm will let you use lashunta but if he does for sure do it and the scaleheart skinwalkers only grants you a STR buff while in beast form and most gms wont let that bonus carry over into polymorph effects (I would argue it does as it is a racial bonus and not a polymorph effect but that's just me) and by level 10 as a melee alchemist you should be polymorphed all the time.

Scarab Sages

fireater wrote:

Well I am building a alchemist as we speak and the first thing I would recommend is to read this guide.

And once you have done that (or if you already have) I would use this point buy STR 16 DEX 12 CON 12 INT 14 WIS 10 CHA 7. This is before racial modifiers and level increases, I would put my level increase into str and pick a race that buffs int and another stat like con or dex as the only races that buff both STR and INt are lashunta and scaleheart skinwalkers.
I doubt your gm will let you use lashunta but if he does for sure do it and the scaleheart skinwalkers only grants you a STR buff while in beast form and most gms wont let that bonus carry over into polymorph effects (I would argue it does as it is a racial bonus and not a polymorph effect but that's just me) and by level 10 as a melee alchemist you should be polymorphed all the time.

Pretty guide. What about a finesse natural weapon alchemist? He is more SAD.


Well I don't do DEX builds on a alchemist (melee ones at least) on a magus yes. I feel even more then a magus alchemists rely on polymorph effects and DEX builds don't really benefit from them a whole lot. To me it breaks down like this low to mid levels STR builds do much more damage, DEX builds have better ac and initiative, at high levels it is damage vs initiative as by this point STR can buy fullplate armor with 0 ACP. but that is just my two cents worth others may disagree.

Scarab Sages

fireater wrote:
Well I don't do DEX builds on a alchemist (melee ones at least) on a magus yes. I feel even more then a magus alchemists rely on polymorph effects and DEX builds don't really benefit from them a whole lot. To me it breaks down like this low to mid levels STR builds do much more damage, DEX builds have better ac and initiative, at high levels it is damage vs initiative as by this point STR can buy fullplate armor with 0 ACP. but that is just my two cents worth others may disagree.

How can i wear a fullplate without ACP?

With the amulet of the mighty fists( agile) i can do the same dmgs ad a strong-based alchemist.

Human Alchemist (Beastmorph) 9/Master Chymist 1
CG Medium humanoid (human)
Str 10, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 7
Feats Brew Potion, Combat Reflexes, Improved Familiar, Lunge, Piranha Strike, Throw Anything, Weapon Finesse, Potion Glutton.
Traits: Pragmatic Activator, Second Chance
Discoveries: Tumor Familiar, Feral Mutagen, Infusion, Extended Potion.

For familiari a Quasit valet archetype with extra iteam sllt feat( in stand of improved initiative) with poisoner's gloves for abusing share spells

What do you think?


#1 Fullplate has a a ACP of 6 there is a trait (Armor Expert) that reduces that by 1, the comfort enchantment reduces it by 1 (or you can go cumfort +2 if you don't have the trait), masterwork (all magic items are masterwork) reduces it by 1, and mithral reduces it by 3 so 1+1+1+3=6-6=0 that is how.
#2 No you don't for the reasons I mentioned before. Let me explain, with a STR build I can use Monstrous Physique II to turn into a four armed gargoyle (one of the best forms to use with this spell) which gives me 6 natural attacks and a +4 STR and a -2 to DEX which means that there is a 6 difference between a STR and DEX builds with this spell (one of the best polymorph spells you get) so 6/2=3x6=18 plus any damage lost form missed attacks do to the lower accuracy. And there aren't any really good DEX polymorph spells the best one is elemental body which gives crap natural attacks. That is why you do less damage.
#3 You have to be a worshiper of Urgathoa to use potion glutton and Urgathoa is a NE god your character is CG you must have one hell of a back story to justify that alignment.
#4 Improved familiars can't use archetypes as they don't get the speak with animal ability that the archetypes replace.
#5 The rest looks fine.

Sovereign Court

fireater wrote:
#1 Fullplate has a a ACP of 6 there is a trait (Armor Expert) that reduces that by 1, the comfort enchantment reduces it by 1 (or you can go cumfort +2 if you don't have the trait), masterwork (all magic items are masterwork) reduces it by 1, and mithral reduces it by 3 so 1+1+1+3=6-6=0 that is how.

Mithril is already masterwork, you do not get the masterwork bonus on top of mithril. However, there are 2 traits of different types that reduce the ACP of armor. Armor Expert (Combat) and Sargavan Guard (Regional).

fireater wrote:
#4 Improved familiars can't use archetypes as they don't get the speak with animal ability that the archetypes replace.

Also, since alchemists have no arcane caster level you may have a hard time swinging improved familiar. The table says "arcane spellcaster level" to determine what improved familiars you qualify for.

Scarab Sages

fireater wrote:
#1 Fullplate has a a ACP of 6 there is a trait (Armor Expert) that reduces that by 1, the comfort enchantment reduces it by 1 (or you can go cumfort +2 if you don't have the trait), masterwork (all magic items are masterwork) reduces it by 1, and mithral reduces it by 3 so 1+1+1+3=6-6=0 that is how.
fireater wrote:
#2 No you don't for the reasons I mentioned before. Let me explain, with a STR build I can use Monstrous Physique II to turn into a four armed gargoyle (one of the best forms to use with this spell) which gives me 6 natural attacks and a +4 STR and a -2 to DEX which means that there is a 6 difference between a STR and DEX builds with this spell (one of the best polymorph spells you get) so 6/2=3x6=18 plus any damage lost form missed attacks do to the lower accuracy. And there aren't any really good DEX polymorph spells the best one is elemental body which gives crap natural attacks. That is why you do less damage.

I don't want to be too cheesy, i promise to my DM

fireater wrote:
#3 You have to be a worshiper of Urgathoa to use potion glutton and Urgathoa is a NE god your character is CG you must have one hell of a back story to justify that alignment.

So accelerated drinker works with extraxts?

fireater wrote:

#4 Improved familiars can't use archetypes as they don't get the speak with animal ability that the archetypes replace.

fireater wrote:

#5 The rest looks fine.

True, i don't read that, so no arcetype

Firebug wrote:
Also, since alchemists have no arcane caster level you may have a hard time swinging improved familiar. The table says "arcane spellcaster level" to determine what improved familiars you qualify for.

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nana?Ultimate-Magic-Ultimate-Combat-Alchemist# 4

Yes i can


Short derail: I think that the investigator might be an even better fit for an horrorific/lovecraft-like adventure. You have an easier time evading those parts of alchemy deemed "evil" and being an observing genius with some tricks up his sleeve could be very helpful.

If you want to be Mr. Hyde with 15PB you should choose at least one stat to "sacrifice". You need Strength and Con to survive melee and you need some int for your alchemy but having it too high increases your check DC when drinking a mutagen. The check itself is a will save. So I would suggest something like:
Str > Con = Wis = Int > Dex > cha

For example:
STR: 16 DEX: 12 CON: 14 INT: 13 WIS: 12 CHA: 8
Or
STR: 16 DEX: 12 CON: 14 INT: 14 WIS: 12 CHA: 7

But you could exchange Con, Int, Wis to taste.

Scarab Sages

Just a Guess wrote:

Short derail: I think that the investigator might be an even better fit for an horrorific/lovecraft-like adventure. You have an easier time evading those parts of alchemy deemed "evil" and being an observing genius with some tricks up his sleeve could be very helpful.

If you want to be Mr. Hyde with 15PB you should choose at least one stat to "sacrifice". You need Strength and Con to survive melee and you need some int for your alchemy but having it too high increases your check DC when drinking a mutagen. The check itself is a will save. So I would suggest something like:
Str > Con = Wis = Int > Dex > cha

For example:
STR: 16 DEX: 12 CON: 14 INT: 13 WIS: 12 CHA: 8
Or
STR: 16 DEX: 12 CON: 14 INT: 14 WIS: 12 CHA: 7

But you could exchange Con, Int, Wis to taste.

Why strenght is better for survivability than dex in melee?

With DEX i have a better AC and a better initiative, if i go first i can get buff early... and with combat reflexes i have tons of AoO

Probably i'm going to attack back of the real front line melee character( a Paladin), with Lunge. The Quasit drinks an buff-like Extract( long arm, barskin, or MONSTROUS PHYSIQUE). With a lot of AoO i can punish all the bad boys moving away, when i'm out of mutagen or mutate use( or with low hp) i can retreat and trhowing BOMBS everywhere, while quasit drinks cure-like extracts.

I really want not to play somenthing Cheesy or OP, but at the same time i want no to fulfill the waste of space role.


Dex is a bit more complicated to pull off. But it can be as good.
You can just swap strength and dex.

Scarab Sages

Just a Guess wrote:

Dex is a bit more complicated to pull off. But it can be as good.

You can just swap strength and dex.

There are another way to get dex damage to natural weapon in stand of amulet of mighty fists( agile)?

Scarab Sages

I can't edit the previous post, but i want to answer. A vomit swarmi infusion driked by the Quasit how works? My character and the familiar vomit 2 swarms?


#1 No accelerated drinker does not work with extracts the only reason potion glutton does is because of that "and other potables" clause. Also there was a FAQ that stated that accelerated drinker does not work with extracts.
#2 As far as I know there is no easier ways to get DEX to damage on natural attacks then a agile amulet.
#3 By RAW share spells does nothing for you as you can't cast spells (extracts do not count as spells). Most GMs I know would let you use it as normal though. But note that it says that you cast the spell on the familiar nowhere does it say you both gain the benefit of the spell. And if your familiar drank the extract well then it would be like he had cast the spell on himself you would gain no benefit as you didn't drink it.

Scarab Sages

fireater wrote:

#1 No accelerated drinker does not work with extracts the only reason potion glutton does is because of that "and other potables" clause. Also there was a FAQ that stated that accelerated drinker does not work with extracts.

#2 As far as I know there is no easier ways to get DEX to damage on natural attacks then a agile amulet.
#3 By RAW share spells does nothing for you as you can't cast spells (extracts do not count as spells). Most GMs I know would let you use it as normal though. But note that it says that you cast the spell on the familiar nowhere does it say you both gain the benefit of the spell. And if your familiar drank the extract well then it would be like he had cast the spell on himself you would gain no benefit as you didn't drink it.

So many mistakes by me, dnd5th ed blows my mind, i mus read something with more attection. So, now probably str is better than dex, but i don't like the idea of Doct. Jekyl having str 16/18. Probably i continue with the dex based build, but i free the feat for improved familiar and the discovery tumor familiar.

Sovereign Court

Osian Oisìn wrote:


Firebug wrote:
Also, since alchemists have no arcane caster level you may have a hard time swinging improved familiar. The table says "arcane spellcaster level" to determine what improved familiars you qualify for.

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nana?Ultimate-Magic-Ultimate-Combat-Alchemist# 4

Yes i can

You just linked a post where SKR says that tumor familiar counts as a familiar for the purposes of feats. I wasn't contesting that. Blackboodtroll goes on to say you can take improved familiar. SKR did not verify that.

The chart for Improved Familiar states that to take a Quasit familiar you have to have to be an Arcane Spellcaster level of 7th.
Not only do you not have an arcane class, the alchemist is specifically not a spellcasting class. See the FAQ for qualifying for feats that require a caster level as an Alchemist. http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9qdk

I was getting around that until recently with my alchemist by using a SLA (Aasimar). With the recent SLA-FAQ change I lost Arcane Strike and Improved Familiar.


Buy lots of Holy Water. Seriously, we were fighting these awful demons and my Wizard figured out that they had resistance or immunity to acid, electricity, cold and fire. They were vulnerable to holy water though and our alchemist had some, added his int bonus to damage and everything. He saved us with cheap consumables when elemental magic failed.


Would you mind providing a link to that FAQ Firebug as that may impact some of my builds. I tried finding it myself but all I can seem to find are the old ones.

Sovereign Court

FAQ wrote:

Spell-Like Abilities, Casting, and Prerequisites: Does a creature with a spell-like ability count as being able to cast that spell for the purpose of prerequisites or requirements?

Only if the pre-requisite calls out the name of a spell explicitly. For instance, the Dimensional Agility feat (Ultimate Combat) has "ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door" as a prerequisite; a barghest has dimension door as a spell-like ability, so the barghest meets the "able to cast dimension door prerequisite for that feat. However, the barghest's dimension door would not meet requirements such as "Ability to cast 4th level spells" or "Ability to cast arcane spells".

http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qow

Scarab Sages

I caompletely change my Char

Detective Dee
Male tengu investigator (empiricist) 9/swashbuckler (inspired blade) 1
N Medium humanoid (tengu)
Init +5; Senses low-light vision; Perception +19
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 26, touch 15, flat-footed 21 (+7 armor, +5 Dex, +4 shield)
hp 67 (10 HD; 9d8+1d10+19)
Fort +7, Ref +16, Will +10 (+4 save vs. illusion and disbelievable effects)
Defensive Abilities trap sense +3; Resist unfailing logic
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 inspired rapier +14/+9 (1d6+6/18-20) or
bite +2 (1d3)
Ranged +1 light crossbow +13 (1d8+1/19-20)
Special Attacks deeds (derring-do, dodging panache, opportune parry and riposte), panache (5), studied combat (+4, 4 rounds), studied strike +3d6
Investigator (Empiricist) Extracts Prepared (CL 9th; concentration +13)
3rd—channel vigor (2), heroism, monstrous physique I[UM]
2nd—alchemical allocation[APG] (3), invisibility, vomit swarm[APG]
1st—anticipate peril[UM] (DC 15), enlarge person (DC 15), heightened awareness[ACG], long arm[ACG] (2), true strike
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 10, Dex 20, Con 12, Int 18, Wis 12, Cha 7
Base Atk +7; CMB +7; CMD 22
Feats Brew Potion, Combat Reflexes, Extra Investigator Talent[ACG], Fencing Grace, Inspired Alchemy[ACG], Weapon Focus (rapier)
Traits accelerated drinker, bruising intellect
Skills Acrobatics +10, Appraise +8, Bluff +8, Craft (alchemy) +13 (+22 to create alchemical items), Diplomacy +8 (+14 to gather information (You can use your Intelligence Modifier instead of Charisma)), Disable Device +17, Disguise +11, Escape Artist +9, Heal +5, Intimidate +17, Knowledge (arcana) +8, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +8, Knowledge (engineering) +8, Knowledge (geography) +8, Knowledge (history) +8, Knowledge (local) +8, Knowledge (nature) +8, Knowledge (nobility) +8, Knowledge (planes) +8, Knowledge (religion) +8, Linguistics +12, Perception +19, Sense Motive +9, Sleight of Hand +9, Spellcraft +10, Stealth +20, Use Magic Device +17; Racial Modifiers +4 Linguistics, +2 Perception, +2 Stealth, ceaseless observation
Languages Common, Dark Folk, Dwarven, Elven, Shadowtongue, Sylvan, Tengu, Undercommon
SQ alchemy (alchemy crafting +9), inspiration (8/day), inspired panache, investigator talents (combat inspiration, infusion, mutagen, quick study, sickening offensive), keen recollection, mutagen (+4/-2, +2 natural armor, 90 minutes), trapfinding +4
Combat Gear elixir of tumbling, poisoner's gloves, potion of ant haul, potion of anticipate peril, potion of barkskin (CL 12th), potion of cat's grace, potion of heroism (CL 5th), potion of invisibility, potion of levitate, potion of life bubble, potion of nap stack, potion of protection from evil, potion of share language, wand of cure light wounds (50 charges), acid (5), alchemical grease (2), alchemist's fire (2), antiplague (2), antitoxin (2), blood-boiling pill, burst jar (5), cytillesh stun vial (3), ghast retch flask (2), holy water (6), meditation tea (2), tangleburn bag (2), tanglefoot bag, weapon blanch (adamantine) (3), weapon blanch (cold iron) (3), weapon blanch (ghost salt) (3), weapon blanch (silver) (3); Other Gear +2 mithral kikko armor, +3 mithral buckler, +1 inspired rapier, +1 light crossbow, crossbow bolts (10), bag of holding i, belt of incredible dexterity +2, cloak of resistance +3, elixir of hiding, elixir of vision, headband of vast intelligence +2, hybridization funnel, alchemy crafting kit, bandolier, bandolier, bedroll, belt pouch, flint and steel, ink, black, inkpen, iron vial (100), mess kit, portable alchemist's lab, pot, soap, torch (10), trail rations (5), waterskin, wrist sheath, spring loaded, 170 gp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Accelerated Drinker You may drink a potion as a move action instead of a standard as long as you start your turn with the potion in your hand.
Alchemy +9 (Su) +9 to Craft (Alchemy) to create alchemical items, can Id potions by touch.
Antitoxin This substance counteracts a specific toxin. If you drink a vial of antitoxin, you gain a +5 alchemical bonus on Fortitude saving throws against poison for 1 hour.
Alchemical Power Component
Like antiplague, this substance can augment certain healing spells.
Neutralize Poison (M): Add +2 on your caster level check to neutralize poison on a target creature. Antitoxin has no effect when you cast the spell on an object.
Ceaseless Observation (Ex) Use INT instead of CHA for gather information (+6)
Combat Inspiration (Ex) Applying inspiration to attacks/saves only costs 1 point.
Combat Reflexes (6 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Fencing Grace Get Dex to dmg with rapiers and +2 CMD vs disarm if you have panache.
Hybridization funnel DC 25 Craft (alchemy) to combine two alchemical splash weapons into one.
Infusion When created an extract can be used by anyone, but takes up a slot until used.
Inspiration (+1d6, 8/day) (Ex) Use 1 point, +1d6 to trained skill or ability check. Use 2 points, to add to attack or save.
Inspired Alchemy You can recreate an extract you consumed during the past hour.
Inspired Panache (Ex) Gain no panache from killing blow, only from rapier crits.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Mutagen This discovery gives the alchemist the mutagen class ability, as described in the Advanced Player's Guide. (This discovery exists so alchemist archetypes who have variant mutagens, such as the mindchemist, can learn how to make standard mutage
Mutagen (DC 18) (Su) Mutagen adds +4 to a physical & -2 to a mental attribute, and +2 nat. armor for 90 minutes.
Panache (Ex) Gain a pool of points that are spent to fuel deeds, regained on light/piercing crit/killing blow.
Poisoner's gloves (2/day) Each glove can be filled with liquid, and deliver with melee touch or natural att.
Potion of ant haul
Potion of anticipate peril
Potion of barkskin
Potion of heroism
Potion of invisibility .
Potion of levitate
Potion of life bubble
Potion of nap stack
Potion of protection from evil
Potion of share language
Mutagen Upon drinking a mutagen, you must make a Will save (DC 10 + one fifth your level + Int modifier + 2 per additional discovery applied) or your moral alignment becomes evil until the mutagen wears off.
Quick Study (Ex) Use studied combat as a swift action.
Sickening Offensive (Ex) Studied strike sickens foe for 1 rd.
Studied Combat (+4, 4 rounds) (Ex) As a swift action, study foe to gain bonus to att & dam for duration or until use studied strike.
Studied Strike +3d6 (Ex) As a free action on a melee hit, end studied combat vs. foe to add precision dam.
Trap Sense +3 (Ex) +3 bonus on reflex saves and AC against traps.
Trapfinding +4 Gain a bonus to find or disable traps, including magical ones.
Unfailing Logic +4 (Ex) +4 save vs. illusion and disbelievable effects

I can use Brew Potion for my DM, becaus he said( and he is probably right), that is pretty ridicoulus investigator can turn extracts but no potions.

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