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Beware the clicking of FAQs, lest you be locked into an interpretation you disagree with.Eh, it's a toss up mechanically. Either it's light armor and you can use the brawling enchantment with with it, or it's medium and you can use the Defender of the Society trait and hosteling enchantment.
Never rule out the possibility that the devs will make a ruling that removes both of those options.
"A mithral breastplate is counted as light armor, and thus cannot be used with Defender of the Society or Hosteling. However, the Brawling enchantment has a restriction on the enchantment, not the armor itself, and thus cannot be used with a mithral breastplate."
Makes as much sense as some of the other rulings we've seen.
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The others who would rather have a clear understanding, and take the rules as they are, will be happy with a ruling.
You can't take the rules as they are. RAW is really Rules As I Interpret Them. So removing interpretations actually limits tables more than it helps.
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The limitations rule when written was clearly framed in terms of how the armor is used. Mithral lightened the armor so the armor got to be counted as "light" in term of usage, how fast you could move with it, the armor check penalty and so on. It was never intended to be used in terms on how enchantments could be applied to it.
Using similar logic, wouldn't it be impossible to have a +1 returning throwing great sword since great swords are not ranged weapons (even though this particular one clearly is)?
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Sohei begs to differ.
It used to be debated whether or not they got to Flurry in Light.
RAW is really Rules As I Interpret Them. So removing interpretations actually limits tables more than it helps.
I agree with the bold and disagree with the italicized. If we have a FAQ telling how to interpret, then we have unlimited tables ;-)
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Unless the weapon enchantments you describe actually have a limitation written in regards to eligible targets that exclude greatswords, the question is not corollary.The limitations rule when written was clearly framed in terms of how the armor is used. Mithral lightened the armor so the armor got to be counted as "light" in term of usage, how fast you could move with it, the armor check penalty and so on. It was never intended to be used in terms on how enchantments could be applied to it.Using similar logic, wouldn't it be impossible to have a +1 returning throwing great sword since great swords are not ranged weapons (even though this particular one clearly is)?
Throwing(Mithril) allows one to treat the Greatsword(Medium Armor) as though it were a ranged weapon(Light Armor). This allows us to apply Returning(Brawling) despite the weapon(Armor) originally not being valid.
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I agree with the bold and disagree with the italicized. If we have a FAQ telling how to interpret, then we have unlimited tables ;-)
You know, I did mis-speak on that part. It probably does help more than it hurts. However, it limits the main strength of tabletop RPGs, the ability of multiple tables to use the same rule in different ways.
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Beware the clicking of FAQs, lest you be locked into an interpretation you disagree with.Eh, it's a toss up mechanically. Either it's light armor and you can use the brawling enchantment with with it, or it's medium and you can use the Defender of the Society trait and hosteling enchantment.
I'd rather it be one or the other than have to deal with table variation, especially considering how common mithral armor is.
Why is it one or the other? Would it be game breaking to allow mithral armor to qualify as both?
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Why is it one or the other? Would it be game breaking to allow mithral armor to qualify as both?Beware the clicking of FAQs, lest you be locked into an interpretation you disagree with.Eh, it's a toss up mechanically. Either it's light armor and you can use the brawling enchantment with with it, or it's medium and you can use the Defender of the Society trait and hosteling enchantment.
I'd rather it be one or the other than have to deal with table variation, especially considering how common mithral armor is.
How much would a +1 Buoyant Mithral Breastplate cost?
Whichever the GM felt it would, though, for a given understanding of "limitations" it could be argued "light" and, in fact, I'd tend to guess the high price on mithril could permit discounts in some areas, especially as that particular enchantment is about as potent as glamour which... isn't.
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Beware the clicking of FAQs, lest you be locked into an interpretation you disagree with.
Within the context of Pathfinder as a whole, I disagree. I can rule anyway I want at my table regardless of what the rules or the designers say. It would not be the first time I housed-ruled something almost a complete opposite to what the "official" rules stated. If this was the only option to play, then most rules arguments, IMO are just exercises in gaming banter, for personal enlightenment, or for additional perspectives.
However, my focus is with regards to PFS specifically. IMO, table variation regarding the implementation of vague rules that govern actions is different than those that directly govern character building. In the former, one can just perform other actions rather than the one the GM will adjudicate differently than the way you want. However, the latter can actually invalidate an entire character making it [virtually] impossible to play. That is why, IMO, this matter needs some FAQ assistance even if that is not the ruling you want. At least then, you can be assured of consistency from table to table.
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The way I read it is that the limitations clause applies to limitations, not bonuses.
As a result, you get the best of both worlds. Yes, mithral medium armor is medium armor for those things that benefit from medium armor. Yes, mithral medium armor is light armor for those things that benefit from light armor.
I see nothing wrong with this interpretation and have been running it that way since 3.X. Paying for a benefit to count something lighter when beneficial should not create a situation where your otherwise heavy armor cannot be used as heavy armor.
This wouldn't be the first time where you get the best of both worlds.
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How much would a +1 Buoyant Mithral Breastplate cost?Why is it one or the other? Would it be game breaking to allow mithral armor to qualify as both?Beware the clicking of FAQs, lest you be locked into an interpretation you disagree with.Eh, it's a toss up mechanically. Either it's light armor and you can use the brawling enchantment with with it, or it's medium and you can use the Defender of the Society trait and hosteling enchantment.
I'd rather it be one or the other than have to deal with table variation, especially considering how common mithral armor is.
6,250gp. Best of both worlds as Gauss says.
The ambiguity of rules does allow each GM a certain freedom in how to judge rules which lends flexibility and a more tailored experience. Which I agree can be awesome, I found however, that it hindered my own. When I read the rules on mithril armor I found no issue, in my mind the rule was clear cut and free of other interpretation. I was wrong on that regard, but found my error far too late, I had planned my character out and now cannot do as I planned because what I thought was clear cut was not. Which then presents issue. That means every character has to be vetted through the GM and every purposed plan of action as well, that I think, can become cumbersome for the GM. So a clear consensus of rules is good because it gives the structure of the universe in which we play.
Have to agree with this. If nothing else, a clear ruling would let me know if I needed to add mithral to my house rules document.
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limits the main strength of tabletop RPGs, the ability of multiple tables to use the same rule in different ways.
Yea I consider that the main weakness. I consider the main strength is Rule 0 where a GM can willingly run their tables differently, but knowing how one is supposed to run it by the rules is one of the most important things you can know about a game.
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Rule 0 always applies in home games. However, concessions have to be made for organized play, when is when a clear ruling is needed to not invalidate your character.
Without a clear ruling, it's effectively banned because it's not worth taking an option that is subject to interpretation and dealing with table variation.
Yeah, I prefer to have written rules that are as clear and explicit as possible. Otherwise you end up needing to ask the GM about what every single rule means, which rather defeats the purpose of having written down rules in the first place.
Rule 0 leaves plenty of room for house-ruling, is the GM doesn't like the current rules.
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Without a clear ruling, it's effectively banned because it's not worth taking an option that is subject to interpretation and dealing with table variation.
Overrun is effectively banned. I played to 10th level and I don't think I ever had a table rule the same way on my 6 Overrun related feats. I got tired of 15 minute rundown before every game with every new GM so I would adjust to their interpretation of the rules.
Mithral was in the 3.0 SRD, Creating Magic Items section. It isn't an invention of the 3.5 edition. The Mithral Shirt and Elven Chain origins are much earlier, 1st edition D&D had Elven Chain.
I don't know if there were examples given in the DMG (where this would have been found for 3.0).
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Lord Vukodlak, 3.5 is the source for PF yes, but there have been multiple departures from 3.5.
With that said, here is the reference you failed to provide:
The feycraft template can be added only to light or medium armor, or to wooden shields. Even fey that are martially minded enough to construct objects of war favor tactics involving stealth and guerilla warfare. Heavier armor or shields only slow the wearer down in most natural settings, so the fey do not specialize in their manufacture. The only exception is the rare suit of mithral heavy armor, which actually counts as a medium armor because of its construction (see page 284 of the Dungeon Master’s Guide).
So yes, according to the DMG II mithral heavy armor "counts" as medium armor because of it's construction (implied: for the purposes of Feycraft armor).
This is fully compatible with the 'limitation' clause in the mithral description and in no way states that mithral counts as one step lighter for all purposes.
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Except for ONE LINE about armor proficiency it's copied and pasted out of the 3.5 SRD. So how it worked in 3.5 "armor proficiency" aside is very relevant because paizo didn't change anything else.
Perhaps the minor change was by design because Paizo didn't like that aspect of the rule, but wanted to maintain the rest. It could be significant that the example is now missing.
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Except for ONE LINE about armor proficiency it's copied and pasted out of the 3.5 SRD. So how it worked in 3.5 "armor proficiency" aside is very relevant because paizo didn't change anything else.Perhaps the minor change was by design because Paizo didn't like that aspect of the rule, but wanted to maintain the rest. It could be significant that the example is now missing.
There is no (game rule) significance to the removal of the example. The example was omitted for legal reasons. The SRD did not have the example, only the print book, and only the SRD was published with the open license. Therefor, the example is copyrighted and cannot be carried forward. Rather than create a new example they simply omitted one entirely.
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So no general consensus on this issue, each camp firm in their interpretations?
Basically. We just need more FAQ requests. This could easily become the new "Damage Dice Chart" FAQ.
Are there not 4 different charts for that? I would enjoy a clear answer.
They just recently made the FAQ for damage dice.
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Sooo... As Heavy mithral armour counts as medium, shouldn't the mithral component for pricing the armour only cost 4,000 gp?
The purpose of this question is to highlight when mithral lightening actually counts. It is heavy armour, yet treated as medium armour when worn for determining movement penalties, class ability restrictions, etc.
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Sooo... As Heavy mithral armour counts as medium, shouldn't the mithral component for pricing the armour only cost 4,000 gp?
The purpose of this question is to highlight when mithral lightening actually counts. It is heavy armour, yet treated as medium armour when worn for determining movement penalties, class ability restrictions, etc.
You generally use the item's original weight when determining pricing. Otherwise, why would they have listed a heavy armor pricing for mithral at all?
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Sooo... As Heavy mithral armour counts as medium, shouldn't the mithral component for pricing the armour only cost 4,000 gp?
The purpose of this question is to highlight when mithral lightening actually counts. It is heavy armour, yet treated as medium armour when worn for determining movement penalties, class ability restrictions, etc.
You have to price mithral without including its effects. It's not mithral until after you pay the cost.
You have to price mithral without including its effects. It's not mithral until after you pay the cost.Sooo... As Heavy mithral armour counts as medium, shouldn't the mithral component for pricing the armour only cost 4,000 gp?
The purpose of this question is to highlight when mithral lightening actually counts. It is heavy armour, yet treated as medium armour when worn for determining movement penalties, class ability restrictions, etc.
Soooo... It's not Mithral until it's Made!
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I believe the pricing has to do with how much material you are using, that doesn't help the issue at hand. What is changed by the armor change? What does your ETC mean? Does it count for medium for enchantments?
My apologies - I rushed my answer. To clarify, the heavy armour made of mithral encumbers the wearer less, so any abilities the wearer has that would function whilst wearing medium armour will work. Incidentally, this will also apply to heavy armour abilities, and if there is a clash, then whichever ability is more beneficial trumps. This is because the armour is still heavy armour. The best way to look at it is the armour counts as both medium and heavy, and the wearer chooses what to count the armour as for every ability they have where armour has an impact.
In regards to enchantments, if the armour was full plate, it is heavy armour for all enchanting restrictions. The material doesn't change the type of armour, it just affects the wearer's impressions. It IS heavy armour, but it feels like medium armour if it is made of mithral.
I believe the pricing has to do with how much material you are using, that doesn't help the issue at hand. What is changed by the armor change? What does your ETC mean? Does it count for medium for enchantments?My apologies - I rushed my answer. To clarify, the armour encumbers the wearer less, so any abilities the wearer has that would function whilst wearing medium armour will work. Incidentally, this will also apply to heavy armour abilities, and if there is a clash, then whichever ability is more beneficial trumps. This is because the armour is still heavy armour. The best way to look at it is the armour counts as both medium and heavy, and the wearer chooses what to count the armour as for every ability they have where armour has an impact.
In regards to enchantments, if the armour was full plate, it is heavy armour for all enchanting restrictions. The material doesn't change the type of armour, it just affects the wearer's impressions. It IS heavy armour, but it feels like medium armour if it is made of mithral.
That's your interpretation of this. Mine is that mithral Full-plate is now Medium for everything except proficiency. So it no longer works for heavy only, and it can be enhanced only as a medium. Since it now counts as medium for limitations except proficiency.
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So no general consensus on this issue, each camp firm in their interpretations?Basically. We just need more FAQ requests. This could easily become the new "Damage Dice Chart" FAQ.
Mark Seifter confirmed his understanding earlier in this thread of what Mithral's "limitations" should be.
So, for the interim, that would be a good baseline to go off of.
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The bold parts are directly quoted from the mithral description in CRB. The other text I have added to highlight points.
Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. So the armour feels lighter as it only affects the wearers abilities related to wearing the armor Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light. The key word here is treated. So the armour doesn't change categories, the wearer treats the armour as though it was one category lighter. This decrease does not apply to proficiency in wearing the armor. A character wearing mithral full plate must be proficient in wearing heavy armor to avoid adding the armor's check penalty to all his attack rolls and skill checks that involve moving. So if proficiency in heavy armour is required, the armour must be heavy armour, but feel lighter when worn. This reinforces my argument that the armour's weight type does not change [so mithral doesn't make a difference when enchanting] but when worn it feels lighter, hence counting as both its original category and one step lighter, with the player able to get the best of both worlds in regards to character abilities.
The bold parts are directly quoted from the mithral description in CRB. The other text I have added to highlight points.
Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. So the armour feels lighter as it only affects the wearers abilities related to wearing the armor Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light. The key word here is treated. So the armour doesn't change categories, the wearer treats the armour as though it was one category lighter. This decrease does not apply to proficiency in wearing the armor. A character wearing mithral full plate must be proficient in wearing heavy armor to avoid adding the armor's check penalty to all his attack rolls and skill checks that involve moving. So if proficiency in heavy armour is required, the armour must be heavy armour, but feel lighter when worn. This reinforces my argument that the armour's weight type does not change [so mithral doesn't make a difference when enchanting] but when worn it feels lighter, hence counting as both its original category and one step lighter, with the player able to get the best of both worlds in regards to character abilities.
Or it could be interpreted as
Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. So the armour is lighter for limitations like class abilities and other things that specify a type of armor Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light. The key word here is treated. So the armor is treated as one category lighter. So things that only work for heavy armor don't work for mithral full-plate, and things that only work for light armor work for mithral medium. This decrease does not apply to proficiency in wearing the armor. A character wearing mithral full plate must be proficient in wearing heavy armor to avoid adding the armor's check penalty to all his attack rolls and skill checks that involve moving. So if proficiency in heavy armour is required, then proficiency it isn't a limitation. Anyone can wear heavy armors, but if you're not proficient then you take a penalty. This is explaining clearly that this is the case to try and prevent future questions about it.
OK for those that believe mithral breastplate doesn't apply for brawling enchantment, here's a question:
Does the Defender of the Society trait work for mithral breastplate?
It wouldn't.
Mithral armour is a step lighter for all purposes related to the wearer, except one: you still need proficiency in the armour's base type in order to avoid non-proficiency. (Elven Chain is the exception TO this exception, as despite being chainmail it counts as light armour for ALL purposes.)
In the case of Defender of the Society, you are considered to be wearing light armour while wearing a mithral BP, and thus your trait does not activate.
However, a mithral BP is still a BP, and thus medium, for purpose of receiving armour enchantments; brawling doesn't work, but bolstering does.
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Mithral armour is a step lighter for all purposes related to the wearer...
...mithral BP is still a BP, and thus medium, for purpose of receiving armour enchantments...
If you simply read the rules as straightforwardly and logically as possible, you get:
Q: Is "The brawling ability can be only applied to light armor" a limitation?
A: Yes, as by the definition of the word 'limitation'.
Q: Can the Brawling property exist on a mithral medium armor?
A: Once a medium armor is mithral it is treated as light for 'limitations'; there is no clause or caveat attached to this rule. Therefore it is treated as light for qualifying for the 'limitation' on Brawling.
There is no interpretation or explanation required here other than following the definition of words and applying them. Beyond that, how people think the rules should work is where you start to fill out hundreds-of-posts threads.
A bit of history, since elven chain was brought up.
Elven chain was made of no special material, it was simply higher artistry then humans could design, in 1e.
Mithral was simply a hand-waved material that was used in the creation of weapons and armor of +4 enhancement, mithral steel. +3 were special meteoric iron-steel, +1 and +2 just fine steel.
+5 weapons were adamantine steel. +6 weapons were pure adamant.
Since there was no 'upgrading a weapon' in 1E, this worked fine...to make a +4 item you'd need mithral, or adamantine not enchanted as high as it could be.
Carry on!
==Aelryinth
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The best way to determine what is correct is to push the limits and see what is the least ridiculous.
The Armour Master (Fighter Archetype) gains damage reduction at 5th level based on the type of armour he is wearing:
DR 1/- for light armour, DR 2/- for medium armour, or DR 3/- for heavy armour.
Full plate counts as heavy armour unless it is made of mithral. Why would making it of mithral, a superior metal to steel, cause the Armour Master to receive less DR?
There are two main options for interpreting mithral's benefits, ignoring enchantments:
1) Mithral armour counts as one category lighter (minimum light) and only that category.
2) Mithral armour counts as its original category as well as one category lighter (typically light armour counts as just light). The character wearing it chooses the most beneficial category for his armour for each ability he has that is affected by armour type.
According to option 1, the Armour Master would find mithral detrimental to his class ability. Mithral armour protects just as well, so it seems ridiculous to think the class ability should suffer. So option 2 makes more sense.
The other reason would be that it's designed to not work better with mithral, thus encouraging you to wear adamantine, which it DOES stack with.
==Aelryinth
I want the best of both world for paying that stupid amount of Gold if it boils down to some lame check penalty.
Also the fighter wants Adamantine anyways as with armor training he's not concerned with mobility
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A special ability is not a limitation, its an advantage.