What class is the best healer overall - Cleric, Oracle, or Shaman?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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I'm personally fond of Vitalists. :)


My experience has been Oracles of Life, hands down. I ALWAYS play the healer (I like being the healer, don't worry), and I always end up regretting not being an Oracle, because I'm always missing something, or ran out of juice.

What good are some of the minor spells like Remove Disease, Remove Fear, Liberating command, etc, if you didn't ready enough of them to use as needed.

Oracles combine Spontaneous casting with the cleric spell list to become THE perfect reactionary healers. If the player is dedicated to the role, they'll at worst be 1 lvl behind a Cleric's potential to heal globally, but they will always be better then clerics at healing as a reaction (Which is really the most needed out of the two)

Plus, they get more spells per day.


Cleric with scribe scroll.

If you pick healing domain, you can generally keep up with damage being dealt in almost all situations.

The best part is that you only need to spend about a third of your character toward healing, which leaves a lot open for blasting, de/buffing, summoning, etc. etc.

Dark Archive

The Healer(actual class name) from the miniatures handbook. Do nit recall if it was a 3.0 or 3.5 book. Actually, the channel energy feature in PF Lilly makes the original suggestions better but it would nit be unreasonable for a PF healer upgrade to PF standards to likely include the addition of channel energy. Maybe upgrading the animal companion at a lower level also.

Nothing wrong with looking at older editions for inspiration and contemplation of where to go in PF.


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Issac Daneil wrote:

My experience has been Oracles of Life, hands down. I ALWAYS play the healer (I like being the healer, don't worry), and I always end up regretting not being an Oracle, because I'm always missing something, or ran out of juice.

What good are some of the minor spells like Remove Disease, Remove Fear, Liberating command, etc, if you didn't ready enough of them to use as needed.

Oracles combine Spontaneous casting with the cleric spell list to become THE perfect reactionary healers. If the player is dedicated to the role, they'll at worst be 1 lvl behind a Cleric's potential to heal globally, but they will always be better then clerics at healing as a reaction (Which is really the most needed out of the two)

Plus, they get more spells per day.

Prepared casters can leave slots open. A few minutes can get the needed spell easily.

/cevah


What if your main melees are nauseated in battle, and you don't have Remove Sickness rdy? At lower lvls, that can ruin you.


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Being able to deal with disables IMMEDIATELY, is in my experience, the most understated, but most dramatic (and by that I mean most powerful) aspect of being a healer.

Having an enemy use it's group disable, and using my turn to say: 'Nope", is the difference between being the healing cleric everyone snubs, and the driving force behind the unbreakable offense


Even better is a Wizard who sais "Now you are a newt"* to the bad guys, and can enforce it. :-)

I have very rarely encountered a situation where immediate status removal was that important. However, YMMV.

/cevah

EDIT: * or "Now you are my slaves".


I do agree with YMMV, as it seems ours do greatly


Soothing Word is pretty awesome for condition mitigation due to its versatility.

Even better is Saving Finale or the like making sure you don't bogged down in the first place.


I do really like Soothing Word; when a condition is taking away an ally's offensive action, it becomes too much of a problem, and since this spell turns most lock downs into debuffs instead, it's a good panic button spell. Being 2nd level is pretty good too.

Saving finale IS good for a bard, though I imagine other players complaining about you taking away their buffs to help out one guy


Cevah wrote:
I have very rarely encountered a situation where immediate status removal was that important. However, YMMV.

Remove paralysis can prevent a PC from getting coup de graced if used right away. Frightened or panicked are fear conditions that are really important to get rid of right away, otherwise your ally will be out of range. Poison that does damage every round is also important to delay or neutralize ASAP. Most ability damage and lesser conditions like shaken can wait until after combat, especially since lesser restoration takes 3 rounds to cast.


That has been my experience Fergie. My GMs also love to use status effects, so in a single battle I've had to content with a Mummies fear aura, a ghasts paralying touch, and draugr nauseating melees

Hindsight tells me: All Undead, booming them w/ Burst of Radiance more often may have worked faster; but it's ultimately a gamble to see if I can do enough damage, before all of them lock us down, and eat us ala Left 4 Dead


My inclination is toward oracle, but since I've been looking at shaman closer lately I feel they both have pretty similar potential.

The spontaneous nature of oracle though I think wins out somewhat. Spell pages let an oracle for quite cheap nab up spells on the lower level lists that they can cast at a moments notice that don't come up that often (such as mentioned above, my oracle has one for remove sickness, remove paralysis, etc).

In one campaign it got to the point the party was appreciative of this enough they started putting aside their own wealth to help expand the repertoire of spells. Doesn't take long that way for any oracle, not even necessarily a life one, to be able to quickly remove just about any ailment.

Not to mention if you are life oracle, channel/life link are beautiful together for redistributing damage and keeping everyone alive.


If you want to cure large groups of people - an army, for example - nothing beats the witch. One cure per round, and assuming a 12-hour workday, she can deliver more than 7000 cures per day.

In the morning you can fight your battles, and in the afternoon, the witch repairs your army.


Its not even close....a half-elf cleric with the Healing domain can selectively heal, to everyone in the party, in the middle of a battle, the equivalent of 57D6 of damage in one round.

The Exchange

Silver Surfer wrote:
Its not even close....a half-elf cleric with the Healing domain can selectively heal, to everyone in the party, in the middle of a battle, the equivalent of 57D6 of damage in one round.

?

Are you reading the favored class bonus as "in addition to whatever you heal normally with a channel, add another third of that amount to it?"

It's "add 1/3 of a point to the healing done." So at third level putting all the FCBs in that a half-elf cleric would heal for 2d6 + 1.

Also, the healing domain ability only affects spells, not channels.

19th level:
Mind you, channeling and quick channeling with a phylactery for 12d6+6 (selective) twice a round is close to 100 points average, but mass heal would be 190 points each to 19 allies.


The half elf cleric FCB bonus grants +1/3 of a point of healing on Channel Energy. That's +1 hp every 3 levels. Not an extra 1d6.

The Healer's Blessing power from the Healing domain only affects spells, not Channel Energy.

Edit: Investigator'd by Belafon


andreww wrote:
I am always curious why people recommend Aasimar for the life oracle. The half elf loses out on a +2 to a secondary stat but gets to pick the same revelation boosting FCB from Elf, can take Paragon Surge for spontaneous access to whatever removal you might need and can start taking bonus spells with the Human FCB when channelling for HP recovery stops being relevant or effective in the mid to high levels.

Paragon Surge is specifically not an Oracle Spell (for some reason).

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advancedRaceGuide/coreRaces/halfElves.ht ml#_paragon-surge


Cleric spells are Oracle spells.


Cevah wrote:

Witch with the Grand Hex Summon Spirit can get any spell at any time for a bit of cash.

Add in the Major Hex Major Healing with the spell Hex Vulnerability for maximum HP healing.

They also get Cure X, Heal, Remove Blindness/Deafness, Remove Curse, Remove Disease, Raise Dead, Regenerate, Reincarnate, Resurrection, and Summon Monster X.

Restoring stat points is the most difficult, below Heal, but can be done.

/cevah

Except Hex Vulnerability states "harmful Hexes" only. so no you cant use Major healing on the same person twice.


I'm sort of partial to a Dual-Cursed Spirit Guide Oracle (Life Mystery, Life Spirit) with VMC Cleric (Restoration Domain, Self-Perfection variant channeling). The extra two revelations are helpful.

Three channeling pools @ level 7. Two at your character level, one at -6 but gets better as you level. The cleric channeling lets allies ignore a temporary status effect for one whole turn. You can use your Domain ability to remove minor conditions as needed without expending a spell. At higher levels, you can take Versatile Channeler to start using your channeling offensively (take a dip in Envoy of Balance so you can do both at the same time, you aren't losing anything much). The way Envoy of Balance 'Twinned Channeling' class feature reads, anytime you channel (whether cleric or oracle), you can release positive and negative energy.

I chose Irori for this character's god because of the feat Ki Channel (and the Self-Perfection variant channel) and the presence of Ki users in the party.


Dual-cursed and Spirit Guide are incomptible. They both alter mystery bonus class skills.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Deadbeat Doom wrote:
I am now picturing a crazy angel-descended Oracle that worships all deities equally. Cool for the fluff, and awesome for the channel feats. :)

Unfortunately rules rule out that possibility. You can venerate multiple deities and most folk do. But you can only have one as a patron.


Alric Rahl wrote:
Cevah wrote:

Witch with the Grand Hex Summon Spirit can get any spell at any time for a bit of cash.

Add in the Major Hex Major Healing with the spell Hex Vulnerability for maximum HP healing.

They also get Cure X, Heal, Remove Blindness/Deafness, Remove Curse, Remove Disease, Raise Dead, Regenerate, Reincarnate, Resurrection, and Summon Monster X.

Restoring stat points is the most difficult, below Heal, but can be done.

/cevah

Except Hex Vulnerability states "harmful Hexes" only. so no you cant use Major healing on the same person twice.

The post you are responding to was made in March. At that time, Hex Vulnerability just said Hexes, not harmful Hexes. Since then, they changed the rules.


Castilonium wrote:
Dual-cursed and Spirit Guide are incomptible. They both alter mystery bonus class skills.

Technically, that is true. They are incompatible. However, one replaces the bonus skills with all knowledge skills and the other one says you do not receive any bonus skills. Other than that, they are fine. Easy to convince a DM to allow it or easy to just not take Dual-cursed and make due with two less revelations. You'd just be more tight on feats.


I still like the witch doctor shaman of life with Variant Multi-class cleric for all day channel spamming, but it is certainly not the only way to get three pools of significant channel energy.


As a halfling, you can use Lucky Healer to reroll healing and take the better roll - needs one use of adaptable luck though.

On the receiver side, you can profit from Fey Foundling (+2 per heal die) and usually much less from Fast Healer (+Con mod/2, but needs Endurance & Diehard).


thegreenteagamer wrote:
Cleric spells are Oracle spells.

That's not entirely true. Some Oracle spells are not Cleric spells, and this spell is a Cleric spell without being an Oracle spell.

If Paizo intended you to just "know" that Oracles could have it because they listed Cleric, then they would do the same thing for Wiz/Sor, except they specifically list Sorcerer in addition to Wizard. They chose not to list Oracle with Cleric, and they usually do.


By that logic, Oracles cannot cast Cure Light Wounds or really basic staples like Divine Favor.


Cleric spells don't say Oracle for the same reason Sorcerer/Wizard doesn't say Arcanist, and Bard doesn't say Skald.

They don't change the title if it's not in the core book and it's not an entirely new list.

There's like two Oracle only spells, but nothing Cleric only that I can recall.

Frankly I would bet if they knew the pattern they would later be following prior to making the CRB, it would be Sorcerer spells and wizards would happen to cast off the Sorcerer list, or vice-versa.


Honestly, this question relies on a different question entirely:
What level are we talking?

It may not seem like much at a glance, but a single level is the difference between clerics having Heal and Oracles having Heal, and that's a whole spell level before Shamen.


thegreenteagamer wrote:
Frankly I would bet if they knew the pattern they would later be following prior to making the CRB, it would be Sorcerer spells and wizards would happen to cast off the Sorcerer list, or vice-versa.

Don't be ridiculous. Obviously they would have called them WIZARD spells and just said that sorcerers cast off the Wizard list!


Sarcasm Dragon wrote:
thegreenteagamer wrote:
Frankly I would bet if they knew the pattern they would later be following prior to making the CRB, it would be Sorcerer spells and wizards would happen to cast off the Sorcerer list, [b]or vice-versa.[B]
Don't be ridiculous. Obviously they would have called them WIZARD spells and just said that sorcerers cast off the Wizard list!

Reading Comprehension Level Analysis...

...Computing...

...Computing....

Clearly written in paragraph at end to specifically prevent misunderstanding. 97.39% probability of troll.


From the spreadsheet Updated 04Oct2014, I found the following lopsided entries:
Frosthammer .. cleric 3
Embrace Destiny .. oracle 1
Oracle's Burden .. oracle 2
Borrow Fortune .. oracle 3
Oracle's Vessel .. oracle 4
Jungle Mind .. oracle 5
Divine Vessel .. oracle 8
Blood Transcription .. wizard 2
Mnemonic Enhancer .. wizard 4
Mage's Lucubration .. wizard 6

/cevah


I would agree having a control castor be much more helpful as they prevent the damage from happening vs healing it after it already did occur.

I would rather have someone liek that with backup healing than a dedicated healer.


As the data has been gathered for all healing done in every pathfinder game, here are the results*:

- Cleric Spells: 19%
- Channels: 13%
- Other Class Spells: 17%
- Regeneration: 2%
- Wands of Cure Light 49%

As you can see, NPC companion Cure Light Wounds is the best healer amongst them.
For the purpose of this study Infernal healing was counted as Cure Light Wands.

*this study is entirely fictional


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The thing that tends to get ignored on the boards is that the occasional person just really wants to be a "healer". And even if there are more efficient things than healing, that doesn't mean that playing a healer is a bad thing. I think part of this is a reaction to other games where having a "healer" is required and the bitterness of those who have played healers without wanting to be a healer. But just because you personally hate playing a healer doesn't mean that you should ruin the enjoyment of those who do. It is also important to factor in that the amount of healing required is a very complicated function. A group of five with high stats won't need nearly as much healing as a party of three with low stats.

Personally, I had a desire to play a healer and I used a Spirit Guide Life Oracle. And its healing exceeded anything that I ever needed to the point that instead of choosing double Life Spirit, I often went with something else like Flame.


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Errant Mercenary wrote:
As you can see, NPC companion Cure Light Wounds is the best healer amongst them.

My inner rogue weeps a tear each time someone gets cured by a wand, blasting away 15 precious gold. ;(

Finlanderboy wrote:
I would agree having a control castor be much more helpful as they prevent the damage from happening vs healing it after it already did occur.

Yeah, but every strategy has limits. Damage prevention can become difficult if the opponent acts in unexpected ways or is immune to many spells. Wizards rely on understanding and preparing, so they are screwed once they face chaos. I am not convinced a 'god wizard' can handle a protean shapechanger who uses different attacks, immunities and tactics every round...

The Exchange

Suffocate still kills you as long as you breathe. There are some spells that work on everyone. By bestiary rules, proteans can change shape once per day. Change shape does not even give you the full abilities of what you're changing into.

And I'm in the school of damage prevention as opposed to in combat healing. Condition removal? Sure, but not going to waste spells healing unless someone that's essential to win the fight is going down next round if I don't heal.

Why don't you stat up that protean shapechanger. If its a custom made monster, I can also randomly throw up stats that will screw any martial over, like hardness 30, regeneration 15, 70 ac, to discriminate against particular playstyles, which makes it an ineffective guideline.


The most important healing isn't HP. It's conditions and stat damage/drain and negative levels.

For that there's no substitute for a cleric. You can keep slots open and get any spell you need in minutes. Healing is split among too many spells for any spontaneous caster and only the cleric and oracle have all of them on list. The one level access delay doesn't help the oracle either.

Almost anyone can restore HP with wands. Breath of Life and Heal are useful, and lacking them or having later access like a druid is a strike against, but every class with that problem has already flunked on non-HP healing. The extra HP a life oracle can provide isn't worth the delayed spell access and limited spells known for the really indispensable thing a healer should provide.


A shaman isn't spontaneous, can do all that, and can use spirits. Why is a cleric better?

Edit...oh, and hexes that never run out, and wandering spirit to get spells they normally don't have access to...so yeah, how is that better than a shaman?

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

hit points are the cheapest thing to restore that a healer can do.

It's all the other stuff (raise/dead, condition removal/restoration, etc) that is pricey.

Logically, a master healer should want to be able to do the stuff that saves the party the most money.

That's probably going to be the cleric. An Oracle that can't use Cure Blindness/deafness is going to shell out cash that could be used for CLW wands to heal a LOT of HP dmg.

So, it basically comes down to cost effectiveness, and overall, the cleric is probably going to be the best of those, having easiest and fastest access to all the spells that deal with healing more then just straight hit points.

If you just want to draw a line at HIT POINTS...then the life oracle probably wins that contest.

==Aelryinth


Again: Shaman can do it. Why is cleric better?

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

thegreenteagamer wrote:
Again: Shaman can do it. Why is cleric better?

Are you referring to specific archetypes of Shaman, or specific subsets of spirits?

Because I'm just referring to the blah cleric, ignoring domains, with positive channeling, and the blah life oracle taking care of a party.

Not a witch who can heal each member of an army 1/day, which is largely immaterial on the face of things.

If you're saying the blah shaman has full access to all the restorative healing spells as fast as the cleric, then fine.

If you're saying the blah shaman has basic class abilities that out- hit point heal the life oracle for the typical party, that's fine.

==Aelryinth

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

My Life Oracle has been the best white mage I've ever played. Currently running a Core cleric as a counterpoint, will see how that goes.


For in combat healing I like the idea of a Spell Warrior Skald (so everyone can benefit w/o losing spellcasting) in conjunction with a Life Link Oracle or Oradin.

With Celestial Totem, Lesser (given from the Skald's performance) Your life link heals for 5+Level and then you have the oracle/Oradin stand on a Path of Glory For 1+Level in healing every round. If you can setup the battlefield nicely you have effectively 6 + 2 x Level Fast healing to everyone every round spending no actions after the initial setup (Starting performance and casting path of glory).

You could also use a Life Shaman instead of oracle and take the guardian Familiar Archetype Splitting half the damage onto the familiar (who then heals it back with path of glory / it's fast healing).

I Want to try this if I ever play a Gestalt game in the future.


Fine, life shaman, whatever. Has all the good spells you need, some (neutralize poison comes to mind) early, and the versatility that comes with a prepped spellcaster and wandering spirit and hexes to be both offensive and defensive. All the benefits of a cleric, including channeling, and then some.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

So, a life shaman is equivalent to everything a cleric is, plus more besides?

I don't follow the shaman, so is there general agreement on that, or is there some sort of restrictions I'm not familiar with?

==Aelryinth


Aelryinth wrote:

So, a life shaman is equivalent to everything a cleric is, plus more besides?

I don't follow the shaman, so is there general agreement on that, or is there some sort of restrictions I'm not familiar with?

==Aelryinth

He's lacking the spontaneous cure option of a cleric which is somewhat limiting but in return he has enhanced cures and his true spirit ability allows him to quicken healing spells or channels a number of times per day equal to their charisma modifier.

The spirit animal has fast healing and their capstone is the standard negative energy immunity mixed with her ability scores being limited to not dropping below 1 from damage or drain.

And a hex for living only blindsight 30 feet.

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