Slayer seems fairly powerful. They can get studied target, which gives +1-+5 on attack and damage (And at level 7, they can apply this to anyone as a swift action; so this is fairly constant), and they can also get a fair amount of sneak attack as well.
Of course, the fact that they get the ranger combat style feats through their talents is also appealing. You do not need high dex then.
For the 'best' build? Eh, that would be a double weapon. They are the best of both worlds- they can be treated as a light/one handed combo, or they can be used 2 handed. That means they can be used 2handed for when you have to move in the same round. Overall, a nice option for rangers/slayers, who can afford high strength and still TWF.
The other strong methods include pummeling style (unarmed pounce and you smash through DR).
Another interesting method would be to use brawler's unique characteristics. You see, they can flurry with 1 weapon for all attacks like a monk, but their flurry is actually still TWF (as in you get the TWF, and you can take further TWF feats to improve the flurry). This means that, for a 2 level dip, you can flurry with a single weapon (which is a lot cheaper, and thus you can buy a better weapon). Then you might want to focus on a class with full martial weapons (like slayer, for instance) and grab cool monk weapons like the 9 ringed sword or butterfly sword.
With the brawler's flurry, you can get several powerful options. You can 2 hand for 1.5x power attack, and similar advantages to double weapons. Or maybe you can take advantage of the fact that brawlers can use shields and still flurry, and get a ton of AC.
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I also thought about TWF a lot. Here are some thoughts of mine in the intro:
Click me
If you want some more comments about non Shield Slamming stuff, let me know.
TWF combined with natural attacks yields a LOT of damage, assuming you have something like an Amulet of Mighty Fists and/or Sacred Weapon/Sacred Bond active to up both the damage and the bonuses to each attack (remember that while Natural Attacks can be made as part of a non-Flurry Full Attack Action, they don't get iterations like your normal BAB; you simply get one attack per Natural Attack at BAB-5)
TWF can hit and do damage. For rangers, paladins and likely slayers it does the most damage. Even a fighter should not have trouble hitting.
When you say, "that actually works," what are you looking for?
Just a class that can do good damage? Paladin and Ranger/Slayer would be your best bet.
A class that can actually TWF and isn't just an essentially reskinned 2H character? Anything that will let you get more than a single attack even after a move: Mobile Fighter, Two Weapon Warrior, Battle Oracle if you can make it to lvl 20, anything that will get you Pounce such as Barbarian, etc. This way is more fun, but does less damage because of being reliant on a high Dex.
My husband and I played teamwork dual wielding characters that were a fighter/barbarian/rogue combination.
Here's what we learned:
Using the same weapon in each hand lets you apply Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, and Improved Critical to both weapons. My TWF wielded dual wakizashis, but Sawtooth Sabres would do more damage.
Sneak attack makes TWF really effective. Get into flank and apply an extra 1d6 on each attack.
If you don't have a flanking buddy, Gang Up lets you get sneak attack more consistently.
Get Double Slice if your Strength bonus is +3 or higher. Otherwise, don't bother.
Power Attack is not a good trade-off for TWF, because the bonus is always halved on your off-hand.
A one level barbarian dip gives you a quick strength boost and access to the Furious enchantment. Bloodrager would serve the same purpose and give you access to a spell list (so you could use wands without UMD).
In our case, the teamwork feats made these builds devastating. We had Precise Strike at level 1, then picked up Outflank at level 10. Outflank was really the better of the two, especially after my TWF picked up Improved Critical: Hasted, she did 5 attacks a round with a crit threat on 15-20. Any time a crit confirmed, it triggered an AoO from her partner...and Bless Weapon automatically confirms a critical hit against evil foes. It was super effective! :-)
Summary:
TWF requires both STR (to hit and damage) and Dex (minimum 15, 17 for Improved TWF). You can do a monk build (use Flurry instead of TWF) or a TWF ranger build without the Dex. I'd also start looking into the swashbuckler build, too--Slashing Grace should let you drop the STR requirement and focus on Dex.
SIR IDENTITY CRISIS
Stats Str 10 / Dex 17(15+2) / Con 14 / Int 13 / Wis 15 / Cha 8
Trait Adopted (Orc - Tusked) or Adopted (Goblin - Mother's Teeth)
Deity's Favored Weapon Unarmed Strike
Items Amulet of Mighty Fists - Agile
Race Human Racial Heritage - Ratfolk
CL1 Wrp1 Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Bite), Improved Unarmed Strike
CL2 Wrp2
CL3 Wrp3 Two-Weapon Fighting, Feral Combat Training (Bite)
CL4 Wrp4 Dex 18
CL5 Wrp5 Martial Versatility (Feral Combat Training)
CL6 Wrp6 Sharpclaw, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
CL7 Wrp7 Double Slice
CL8 Wrp8 Dex 19
CL9 Wrp9 Greater Weapon Focus, ???
CL10 Wrp10
CL11 Wrp11 ???
CL12 Wrp12 ???, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting | Dex 20
Lv12 Full Attack (with Sacred Weapon active): +12 (1d10+3+Dex)/ +12 (1d10+3+Dex)/ +9 (1d10+3+1/2 Dex)/ +9 (1d10+3+1/2 Dex)/ +9 (1d10+3+1/2 Dex)/ +7 (1d10+3+Dex)/ +7 (1d10+3+Dex)/ +2 (1d10+3+Dex)/ +2 (1d10+3+Dex)
If Multiattack is allowed: +12 (1d10+3+Dex)/ +12 (1d10+3+Dex)/ +12 (1d10+3+1/2 Dex)/ +12 (1d10+3+1/2 Dex)/ +12 (1d10+3+1/2 Dex)/ +7 (1d10+3+Dex)/ +7 (1d10+3+Dex)/ +2 (1d10+3+Dex)/ +2 (1d10+3+Dex)
Basically, any class that gets a lot of static damage modifiers and doesn't care about the damage dice on your weapon is going to be strong for TWF: I'm personally fond of Slayers with Kukris or the two-bladed sword or Brawlers (Fighter archetype, not the hybrid class) with cesti.
Basically, any class that gets a lot of static damage modifiers and doesn't care about the damage dice on your weapon is going to be strong for TWF: I'm personally fond of Slayers with Kukris or the two-bladed sword or Brawlers (Fighter archetype, not the hybrid class) with cesti.
Ah, those brawlers are particularly good. Because they get a combo of abilities that lets them stop enemy movements with AoOs that do a maneuver.
Well, all fighters get access to a feat that does the same thing, but brawlers have earlier access. So really, it is a toss up between brawler and lore warden, since because they can both boost the maneuver to hold down beefier enemies.
It May Sound like madness but i Think a swashbuckler with 2 falcatas May be a fair contender in this sport only need dex and great crits. You Will only use precise strike when charging or moving but that is better than what several of the others Can do on the move.
It May Sound like madness but i Think a swashbuckler with 2 falcatas May be a fair contender in this sport only need dex and great crits. You Will only use precise strike when charging or moving but that is better than what several of the others Can do on the move.
If you are going to spend the exotic weapon feat, why not sawtoothed sabers? They can actually be TWF without too much trouble.
It's pretty simple to make a TWF character that "actually works" now. No crazy hoops to jump through whatsoever. They've confirmed that Brawler's Flurry counts as them having the Two-Weapon Fighting feat of the purposes of qualifying for feat prerequisites.
So all you need is two levels of Brawler and you can TWF with a huge variety of weapons, but only use one actual weapon. So no worries about double the gold expenditure, or splitting feats, or anything like that.
You don't even need to stick with Brawler, since you can pick up later TWF feats manually. You can ever bypass the prereqs by going with a multiclass of Brawler and Ranger, or Brawler and Slayer.
If you multiclass with a class with channel, you can even add in new weapons to your flurry using Crusader's Flurry (I believe so, I know it works with regular Flurry, not 100% that it works with Brawler's Flurry as well).
Well that's a shame. Still, Flurry of Blows does set you to full BAB for the purposes of the Flurry, it just won't let you add more attacks later on. So if you're OK with just getting one extra attack, taking a -1 to your non-Flurry attacks due to a decrease in BAB, and don't think you'll go to the levels in which extra TWF feats would be valuable, you can just dip a level of a class with Flurry.
Slayer, standard or Sword and Board. Mostly Str based preferred.
I've done well up to level 7 so far with Scimitar and Klar. Plan to start in on Horizon Walker starting 8th. Not sure if just for a dip, or all 10 levels. Usually hit +12 with the Sword, and +14 with the shield, for 1d6+13, 14 with shield due to trait, so solid damage.
Shield Slam is disgustingly good indoors. It's like a free Trip fairly often.
Some 3/4 classes - particularly divine ones - can pump up bonuses quite nicely. An Evangelist of Sarenrae with the Heroism domain and Fate's Favored can be adding 8 ab and 6 damage by level 9; an Inquisitor can use judgements and spell buffing to do the same kind of thing. With buffs like that running you can eat a lot of negatives and still chug away effectively with two weapons, even if it's two rapiers.
Doing this kind of thing with a strength build is fairly doable as well if you use the Dual Talent human ability to pump both strength and dexterity right off the bat, since 17dex is really all a TWF build is going to need. Strength has the advantage of grabbing ideal weapons - like a Shizuru Evangelist using a Katana and Cestus.
The main issue with TWFing on 3/4 BaB classes is lack of Feats. TWFing requires a lot of Feats, and most 3/4 BaB classes don't have Bonus Feats, or must choose them from a limited list of "Not TWFing feats (among othe rthings)".
BB those bonuses may not be up as much as they need to be since they are dependent on limited resources. They also eat into spells that could be used for other things.
It May Sound like madness but i Think a swashbuckler with 2 falcatas May be a fair contender in this sport only need dex and great crits. You Will only use precise strike when charging or moving but that is better than what several of the others Can do on the move.
falcata is 19-20 x3 and a dex focused swash can get high enough to hit that the -2 extra(unless effeortless lace works and i am not sure it does for this) is not gonna destroy his to hit chances.
I am not saying i would do it but i think the math says it is a ok idea if damage is the name of the game.Edit: but if i were to do it it would be on a halfling with risky striker.
BB those bonuses may not be up as much as they need to be since they are dependent on limited resources. They also eat into spells that could be used for other things.
I'm not sure how it's really any functionally different than a typical battle Cleric or Inquisitor, other than maybe using domain slots 3 and up to throw Heroism around. Evangelist follows the same rounds/day rules as a Bard, and a Barbarian has a lot less rage in 'em per day than a Cleric has rounds of favor/power available. You can always fall back on just swinging a single weapon around if saving resources.
Feats-wise, strength-based TWF needs 1 and 9 for the basics; Double Slice is pretty marginal compared to bonus damage, but there's room anyhow. Even going double dex-rapiers without a swash dip is doable with 1/3/5/9 (or 1/55/9 if Crusader Cleric), though hardly ideal.
I'm not saying this stuff is optimized or flawless, but it's perfectly functional. In relative terms, a generic power-attacking Barbarian 9 is effectively 3/4BAB with a +2ab bonus from strength. An Evangelist battle Cleric 9 with Heroism and the usual buffs, using sword-and-cestus, is 3/4BAB, -2ab TWF, +2ab+2ab+4ab.
I'm not saying this stuff is optimized or flawless, but it's perfectly functional. In relative terms, a generic power-attacking Barbarian 9 is effectively 3/4BAB with a +2ab bonus from strength. An Evangelist battle Cleric 9 with Heroism and the usual buffs, using sword-and-cestus, is 3/4BAB, -2ab TWF, +2ab+2ab+4ab.
Ok, I understand now, but I got the impression that the OP was looking for optimization, but I dont remember him clarifying what counted as "working" either.
You want
ABSOLUTE
TWF
DOMINATION
????Look no further than the eldritch guardian!
You thought one fighter making 6 attacks was too much rolling? Well, now so does his animal companion!
Oh, but that's still not enough attacks for you? Maybe getting pounce is too much hassle? Maybe you just want to shoot things?
INTRODUCING!
TRENCH FIGHTER TRACY
AND HIS SIDEKICK
MONKEY MORRISYou know what's better than TWF? TWF with double barrels. Times two. Because you've got a monkey. With two pistols. You need to take EWP for pistols with trench fighter anyway, and amateur gunslinger is a combat feat, so quick clear is covered too. And you know what your monkey can have? A prehensile tail (in the form of a tentacle evolution) to help with reloading. You can just grab gun twirling like the pleb fighter you are.
Eh. Pistols, besides being rather expensive, also would not have very much damage coming from the monkey. It lacks the ability to get dex to damage, or to get weapon training/gloves of dueling. Those are all class abilities, not feats.
No, eldritch guardian can do well for TWF, but for a different reason- your familiar can share a good deal of your teamwork feats, since a lot of those are also combat feats.
Think about coordinated charge- it lets you charge as an immediate action when a team mate with the feat charges. Since you are moving outside of your turn, and end up right next to something you want to kill.... this has been called a 'ghetto pounce' in other threads.
Half-Orc Two Weapon Fighter with an Orc Double Axe can be fun.
Sawtoothed Sabres with a 1 level swash dip is the OP method. (This build is the main issue I have with dex to damage.)
besides the dip what class do you use. Because i cant seem to find out how it is OP.
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Sawtoothed Sabres with a 1 level swash dip is the OP method. (This build is the main issue I have with dex to damage.)besides the dip what class do you use. Because i cant seem to find out how it is OP.
The other class doesn't matter - though the build does take several feats to get going. (Exotic/WF:Sabres/Slashing Grace/TWF)
The reason it's OP is because you can entirely dump strength entirely with virtually no penalty and get full dex to damage with both weapons. (Debatable whether Double Slice is required for full dex damage. RAI probably yes - RAW probably no.)
Sawtoothed Sabres with a 1 level swash dip is the OP method. (This build is the main issue I have with dex to damage.)besides the dip what class do you use. Because i cant seem to find out how it is OP.The other class doesn't matter - though the build does take several feats to get going. (Exotic/WF:Sabres/Slashing Grace/TWF)
The reason it's OP is because you can entirely dump strength entirely with virtually no penalty and get full dex to damage with both weapons. (Debatable whether Double Slice is required for full dex damage. RAI probably yes - RAW probably no.)
So you can end up doing ok damage. Without the Tow handed weapon crowd making fun of you. Why is that bad.
I dont like dex to damage but that is because it dosent make sense to me. I dont think it is OP.|
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My only advice is this: if you play anything with a low Will save, it's not a bad idea to NOT dump your Wis (i.e. not a bad idea to retain a Wis of 12 when your bad save is Will). Then get the Cape of Free Will as soon as possible (if your DM will allow). If you have crap loads of feats, like Fighter, take Iron Will.
Anyone can make a class look good on paper. But in fifteen years of playing this game I can tell you that the most annoying thing is to fail a save vs. charm or fear in the first 5 min of a combat that can take up to an hour of game play... so I've come to "accept" characters that cannot pump a maximum amount of damage if they're built to keep their wits about them...
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I have an experimental character right now that is using TWF.
Half-orc Fighter with daggers. He takes just enough dex to qualify for the feats and continues to use Str for to hit and damage.
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Addendum: don't build a character that has a major Will save weakness on the expectation that other party members will protect you or buff you. I am seeing less and less clerics in most partys these days (due in part to the wide variety of other options, but perhaps also due to a shift in gamers' preferences... this may be only anecdotal and localized to my area, but it seems that everyone wants to just pump damage, from the gunslinger to the ranger and all the way to the oracle) i.e. I rarely see gamers take standard actions to cast a buff spell these days, and it makes for slower / harder to win games IMO. If you are playing with a group that understand the old school principles behind this game and build a party able to fill the roles of meatshielding, stealth striking, buffing and behind the line artillery, don't leave that group! :)
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So you can end up doing ok damage. Without the Tow handed weapon crowd making fun of you. Why is that bad.
I dont like dex to damage but that is because it dosent make sense to me. I dont think it is OP.
The damage won't be higher than two-handed combatants (it will be slightly on full attacks -moreso at higher levels - but not that much until said high levels) it's all of the secondary benefits that you get from a high dex. Higher AC (either 3-5 points if your GM allows Celestial Plate, 1-3 points with Celestial Chain), initiative, reflex, manuverability (if you use the Celestial Chain you're faster), more skill benefits (Who cares about climb past level 3? Acrobatics stays relevant) etc.
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The damage won't be higher than two-handed combatants (it will be slightly on full attacks -moreso at higher levels - but not that much until said high levels) it's all of the secondary benefits that you get from a high dex. Higher AC (either 3-5 points if your GM allows Celestial Plate, 1-3 points with Celestial Chain), initiative, reflex, manuverability (if you use the Celestial Chain you're faster), more skill benefits (Who cares about climb past level 3? Acrobatics stays relevant) etc.So you can end up doing ok damage. Without the Tow handed weapon crowd making fun of you. Why is that bad.
I dont like dex to damage but that is because it dosent make sense to me. I dont think it is OP.
But the thing is, it's not higher AC than a shield build, which can be a full TWF or Two-handed build in it's own right. It's also not effectively more maneuverable because you are tied to full attacks. At least a two-hander can deliver a solid hit if they need to move. Reflex is the least important save, and skills are largely irrelevant.
The only real benefits are slightly better AC vs a non-shield build, and better initiative.
The drawbacks are significant, with a required dip, less carry capacity, less feats, and a severe vulnerability to STR damage.
The damage won't be higher than two-handed combatants (it will be slightly on full attacks -moreso at higher levels - but not that much until said high levels) it's all of the secondary benefits that you get from a high dex. Higher AC (either 3-5 points if your GM allows Celestial Plate, 1-3 points with Celestial Chain), initiative, reflex, manuverability (if you use the Celestial Chain you're faster), more skill benefits (Who cares about climb past level 3? Acrobatics stays relevant) etc.So you can end up doing ok damage. Without the Tow handed weapon crowd making fun of you. Why is that bad.
I dont like dex to damage but that is because it dosent make sense to me. I dont think it is OP.
yes all those numbers looks rigth. I am playing a str based brawler in a group with a dex based magus(precise strike as well) and a archer ranger. I am very curious about how far behind i will be:)
But there is also a Brown fur transmuter and he will close the gap a bit i think:)Edit: but my point was that AC, initiative, reflex save and even skills is not among the things that break the game.
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The drawbacks are significant, with a required dip, less carry capacity, less feats, and a severe vulnerability to STR damage.
The dip isn't really a drawback. Swash is probably the best 1 level dip in the game. (Panache & the best deeds in one level? Yes please!) The carry capacity is insignificant. (Pick up the trait for +2 on carry & at 4-5 get a pearl of power for the wiz to cast ant haul on you.) And the strength damage vulnerability is a slight issue - but most of those are touch attacks, and the touch AC will be much better than a str fighter's.
Your dex will be higher than a str figher's strength is. He has to retain a decent dex (at least 12 or his AC will suffer more) but this build can dump the strength down to 7-8ish with few issues. A halfling could dump it further.
As to feats? He gains more than the feat costs. He'll have +4 initiative at low levels, more at higher. +4 initiative is worth a feat. Reflex may be the least important save - but it's certainly not worthless. A +2 bonus costs a feat (probably a poor choice) - but double that should be worth a feat. Etc
I'm not saying that it's a game-breaking combo. It's not. But it is a bit OP.
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As a side note: put some thought into figuring out what kind of terrain favors you, and what doesn't.
You really don't like having to take move actions to get to enemies. Even the other melee warriors don't take as much of a hit from it as you do; if they make only one attack, that's still an attack with a big weapon.
However, in a claustrophobic dungeon with lots of 5ft corridors, you're doing just fine. Just make sure you're at the front of the line. However, as you go up in level, these dungeons become less common, mainly to accomodate monsters that become bigger.
Range-denying battlefield control can also help you; fog and darkness can both force Reach-based enemies to close in, and hamper archers. It's good to know what kind of support you want to ask from the casters.
"Taxi" magic like Telekinetic Charge or Dimension Door, that can deposit you right near enemies in time for you to take full attacks before enemies can react, that's really nice.
Stealth and TWF do have some synergy; ideally, you start combat at very close range, and Stealth can make that happen. As it happens, you're probably playing a class with Stealth as a class skill and a desire for good Dex for prerequisites and other class abilities.
Ok, I understand now, but I got the impression that the OP was looking for optimization, but I dont remember him clarifying what counted as "working" either.
If you really play around with it there are perhaps a few pretty great possibilities...
The Iron Fist - Evangelist Cleric of Iomedae X/ Kata Master of Many Styles 1.
14/16+, 15/17, 14, 10, 14, 8; Dual Talent Human; Fate's Favored & Magical Knack; FCB -> HP.
1. Two-Weapon Fighting
3(Kata Master of Many Styles). Snake Style / +Snake Fang
5. Combat Reflexes
7. Heavy Armor
9. Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
11. Extra Panache
Evanglist + Heroism Domain + Divine Favor for stacked offense.
Temple sword + monk unarmed strike (full strength offhand; eligible for Magic Weapon / Greater Magic Weapon) for two-weapon fighting. All attacks are full strength +inspire courage +divine favor.
Uses mithral fullplate, shield, parry and potentially Cleric buffing for powerful defense, then retaliates like mad on misses.
Can use Swordmaster's Flair (blue sash) to give unarmed strikes +5ft reach.