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Actually there would be little to nothing in most dragons leavings..as it has been mentioned many times that their stomachs are like hyper efficient furnaces capable of digesting almost anything...
Not much chance for coins..and magic items to survive that trip.
Not at all a biased opinion of one who doesn't want to be compared to owls.
Not at all a biased opinion of one who doesn't want to be compared to owls.Actually there would be little to nothing in most dragons leavings..as it has been mentioned many times that their stomachs are like hyper efficient furnaces capable of digesting almost anything...
Not much chance for coins..and magic items to survive that trip.
Well when owls breath fire..grow extra limbs..live thousands of years develop language and magic, and have a blast furnace for a digestive system...I may consider the comparison a bit more.. :)
Well, they've already developed owlbears. How much longer really before they crack the owldragon?
thats what templates are for.....
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Actually there would be little to nothing in most dragons leavings..as it has been mentioned many times that their stomachs are like hyper efficient furnaces capable of digesting almost anything...
Not much chance for coins..and magic items to survive that trip.
Actually metals and minerals would be the most likely things to survive that trip. Probably bones too. These are the things that survive high efficiency furnaces (for example crematoriums). At high enough temperatures you could melt it, but that would be like having your innards engulfed in Lava (20d6 fire damage per round), since most dragons are not immune to fire damage, it doesn't seem likely they would be able to reach these temperatures.
Magical/Wondrous Items are different. I wouldn't expect scrolls to survive, but wands possibly would (most wands are wood, but some are bone, metal, or even crystal). I would consider wondrous items inside a dragon's stomach to be attended by the dragon, so I'm not sure if they could easily be damaged.
Actually there would be little to nothing in most dragons leavings..as it has been mentioned many times that their stomachs are like hyper efficient furnaces capable of digesting almost anything...
Not much chance for coins..and magic items to survive that trip.Actually metals and minerals would be the most likely things to survive that trip. Probably bones too. These are the things that survive high efficiency furnaces (for example crematoriums). At high enough temperatures you could melt it, but that would be like having your innards engulfed in Lava (20d6 fire damage per round), since most dragons are not immune to fire damage, it doesn't seem likely they would be able to reach these temperatures.
Magical/Wondrous Items are different. I wouldn't expect scrolls to survive, but wands possibly would (most wands are wood, but some are bone, metal, or even crystal). I would consider wondrous items inside a dragon's stomach to be attended by the dragon, so I'm not sure if they could easily be damaged.
Red..gold dragons are immune to fire, and they have hoards full of coins...not strange clumps of coiled or pellet shaped metals..(hmm now thats a idea) and dragons that breath acid..I cannot even imagine what its digestive system must be like.
and as to wonderous items...they dont really have any major defenses per se against fire..acids and whatnot..unless sepcificaly staed in the items description..boots, cloaks..belts etc would either be consumed or rendered otherwise ..unusable.but so long as hoards have piles of nice easily used coinage...the waste leavings concept kinda stinks :)
But just to add this...back in the days of council of wyrms...a dragon's hoard was necessary for it to advance through it age stages..and would have to consume some of it before hibernating and going through a growth spurt ( that may take days..months or years)..and we had to be careful with our breath weapons ..not to destroy items of value..I remember picking through many dead creatures for the shinies...lol
Not a great idea..but it worked for a game mechanic...and also several breeds of dragon actually ate gems and pearls..usually the metallics..so I guess their digestive system can break down gems etc...
Unless the just dig through their droppings for the gems again...talk about recycling..ewww :)
Huh, that's the most plausible answer I never thought of. The hoard is really just the remains of all the humanoids they've eaten over the millennia.If they eat a creature whole, then possibly:
A) They're like owls, and the hoard is likely from their pellets
Couldn't be, dragon stomachs digest darn near everything to fuel their metabolisms
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Red..gold dragons are immune to fire, and they have hoards full of coins...not strange clumps of coiled or pellet shaped metals..(hmm now thats a idea) and dragons that breath acid..I cannot even imagine what its digestive system must be like.
and as to wondrous items...they don't really have any major defenses per se against fire..acids and whatnot..unless specifically stated in the items description..boots, cloaks..belts etc would either be consumed or rendered otherwise ..unusable.
but so long as hoards have piles of nice easily used coinage...the waste leavings concept kinda stinks :)
The fact that we don't find piles of slag could suggest their digestive system doesn't reach those high temperatures.
As far as the acidic dragons go, most acids won't dissolve gold, I think Aqua Regia requires a combination of both Hydrochloric and Nitric Acid to dissolve gold. But even that wouldn't dissolve glass. It would also depend on residence time of the item in the stomach. (Personal question for science Ashtathlon, how regular are you?). Though common Hydrochloric Acid (stomach acid) could cause significant demineralization of bones.
Anyway, the fact that Dragons of all colors/metals/types have a singular source, would suggest that they have similar digestive systems.
Red..gold dragons are immune to fire, and they have hoards full of coins...not strange clumps of coiled or pellet shaped metals..(hmm now thats a idea) and dragons that breath acid..I cannot even imagine what its digestive system must be like.
and as to wondrous items...they don't really have any major defenses per se against fire..acids and whatnot..unless specifically stated in the items description..boots, cloaks..belts etc would either be consumed or rendered otherwise ..unusable.
but so long as hoards have piles of nice easily used coinage...the waste leavings concept kinda stinks :)The fact that we don't find piles of slag could suggest their digestive system doesn't reach those high temperatures.
As far as the acidic dragons go, most acids won't dissolve gold, I think Aqua Regia requires a combination of both Hydrochloric and Nitric Acid to dissolve gold. But even that wouldn't dissolve glass. It would also depend on residence time of the item in the stomach. (Personal question for science Ashtathlon, how regular are you?). Though common Hydrochloric Acid (stomach acid) could cause significant demineralization of bones.
Anyway, the fact that Dragons of all colors/metals/types have a singular source, would suggest that they have similar digestive systems.
Or they dont eat and crap out the treasure.
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But just to add this...back in the days of council of wyrms...a dragon's hoard was necessary for it to advance through it age stages..and would have to consume some of it before hibernating and going through a growth spurt ( that may take days..months or years)..and we had to be careful with our breath weapons ..not to destroy items of...
Humans can eat/dissolve pearls. It's probably the worlds most expensive antacid/calcium supplement, so I would strongly advise against it.
thats what templates are for.....
Stolen.
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Here's my thing about this whole "the hoard is from what they ate" statement: a newly born, just hatched white dragon, arguably one of the weakest of the chromatics (could still kill me so who am I to judge) is a CR 2 monster with triple the normal treasure for such a creature. They are literally born into wealth.
Add in the fact that these creatures must then eat to survive and do so in one of the most inhospitable climates to humanoids known. Their environment is listed as "cold mountains." So, when they hatched did their parent lure in a party of APL 2 PCs with all of their WBL? And even if they did, how then did said dragon fly under the radar to survive all the way to a Young dragon, some 16-25 years, consuming rich dwarf after rich dwarf and somehow not getting slaughtered by said humanoids with the wealth to murder it all that time.
FYI by the time it has aged 16 years it has to have eaten enough victims to have amassed roughly 6000 GP worth of treasure. In cold mountains. Alone. That seems... unlikely.
Okay, I like the conductivity/heat control idea and if it is extrapolated to the other species of dragons it does kinda make sense
Red- Covered above.
White- If the red dragon uses the coins and treasure to pull heat from its body, why wouldn't the white dragon do the same? the dragon collects vast sums of coins and laying on the coins sucks the excess heat out of the dragon's body and it gets more cold and thus more comfortable it does make sense to a point.
Blue- This one is a bit difficult, but I think the dragon's massive bio-electric field could have potential for spontaneous discharge, just like when a red snorts and a jet of fire shoots out, Having massive amounts of highly conductive material on hand to ground the charge rather than shooting bolts of lightning off into the desert to go fry a random caravan would likely be useful, also it lessens accidental widening of the cave by way of blowing open walls.
Green/Black- These two I cannot really think of a reason for wanting to accumulate gold other than basic greed/envy other than possibly not wanting to melt your bed if you are to drool at night.
Nah guys. Im pretty sure its the pellet thing.
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Here's my thing about this whole "the hoard is from what they ate" statement: a newly born, just hatched white dragon, arguably one of the weakest of the chromatics (could still kill me so who am I to judge) is a CR 2 monster with triple the normal treasure for such a creature. They are literally born into wealth.
Well, amphibians, reptiles, birds, and egg-laying mammals all have a cloaca. One opening for their digestive, urinary, and reproductive tracts. If you've ever collected chicken eggs, you'll have learned that they are often covered in chicken excrement. They are literally born into dragon filth. Especially if they keep their eggs in their hoard and raise their young (dragons do that right? If not it's no wonder there are so few of them).
Triple treasure for a CR 2 is what, 1650 GP? That would be 6-7 level 1 basic NPCs. They wouldn't have to be a party, just regurgitate whatever they eat like birds. That being said, medium or smaller dragons probably wouldn't eat medium or smaller creatures whole. They might eat bones like a hyena. So the gear is just leftover stuff they can't eat. If they won't clean up their own pellets or poop, then why would they bother cleaning up after they finished eating?
Have you ever seen hoarders? You know the really really gross homes, thats what we're dealing with here.
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The baby dragons might just get their treasure from their parents as they leave home.
"Here son - take this +1 amulet of mighty fists and this encrusted golden soup bowl and make your way in the world!)"
It's not like it'd put much of a dent in their parents' hoard.
In the His Majesty's Dragon series all the Dragons are quite vain and have a psychological need to look nice and have nice things. To impress who? Other dragons I guess, but they always make it a point to compare and comment themselves to other dragons.
"Ohh that dragon has a fine medallion, well it's nice but nothing compared to my jewel inlaid breastplate."
"Oh that Dragon has a fine crew, well mine has a personal chef and his doesn't."
"No you can't go wearing that raggedy uniform, you need to at least put on the special jacket, cufflinks, and brooch so you look better than the other captains."
They want shined and polished scales, to wear brooches, finely crafted armor, have a well groomed/dressed rider, have the most finely operated and dressed rifle crews.
"I find your horde... alluring. Let's bang okay?"
300 years later, the adventurers finally triumph over the dragon, and find the bones of another dragon mixed into the horde. Hmmm.
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Dragons are references to power, raw power. The know they are capable of enormous things because of their destructive capabilitys, sharp mind etc.
The have seen this, many dragons want to achieve more power as a concept.
However, when they compare human power with their raw power they realize that money-based elements are the base for human power. Wanting to be the most powerful things in the entire world, they will try to be more powerful than any human in every aspect of their life, therefore, having a lot of money and access to everything gold can buy demonstrate that the dragon has reached far more power than any other human could. With this, the dragon has satisfied his desire to probe itself that he is still the best race.
The dragon using this power to activately destroy other powerful human is not the goal, but the dragon wants to know that whatever that poor little humanoid has achieved, it can do it better.
Meanwhile, good based dragons will use this power for their good based goals. Evil based dragons will use it for their own whims, power will always be the main source of proof regardless of their ambitions or goals.
"I find your horde... alluring. Let's bang okay?"
300 years later, the adventurers finally triumph over the dragon, and find the bones of another dragon mixed into the horde. Hmmm.
See book 3 of Jade Regent.
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Council of Wyrms back in 2e tried to tie the size of a hoard to the dragon's ability to increase his age category. It was meant to keep players from spending the hoard instead of expending treasure they got for bedding I imagine though.
I imagine the issues are bedding, greed, love of beauty and the desire to have many things built up around you. Dragons are typically portrayed as spending a lot of their time asleep so its non unreasonable they'd want the things you find beautiful or valuable around you at all times.
I will note I've got a country in my campaign setting that partially moved away from gold to paper money just to stymie chromatic dragons who were about. Dragons didn't like burnable paper money that periodically became worthless paper.
The 3e draconomicon also stated that dragons like to /see/ their wealth. While very intelligent, they're similar to eccentric millionaires who sleep on mattresses stuffed with loot or have a Scrooge McDuck Money Vault as opposed to wanting to invest in businesses with people they think are either trying to get one over on them, or who are incompetent.
And for the Ashiel-style 'solution' of dragons blowing all their loot on dragon-magic items. Having a hoard of a few baubles you wear might be combat effective, but isn't really impressive.
The dragon, for his part, plans only to count all his money and perhaps sort it out into piles. After ridiculing humankind’s theories about God, the dragon gives Grendel a final piece of advice: “seek out gold and sit on it.”
If I were looking for a reason within the logic of the game world, I would say that they're attracted to shiny things, like some bird species (as others have said).
If I were to use dragons in my campaigns (I don't), I wouldn't have them establish hordes. It never made much sense to me.
I KNOW this is the oldest question in the game and I'm sure it's been answered a million ways but I'm wondering if there's a Pathfinder answer. I have searched all through these boards, on the Golarion wiki and on the PFSRD but so far nothing. Does PF have a specific reason for draconic hoards?
Dragons have hoards because, in myths around the world and in many cultures, dragons were examples of evil, power and greed and hoards were used to to tell the tales of how dragons were HUGE examples of those vices.
It made for good storytelling and was/is entrenched in many (but not ALL) cultures. I am GUESSING that is is most influenced by norse myth.
Great wealth has always been a sign of power and influence so naturally it was applied to draconic legends to exemplify their power.
You see, we dragon like to collect things. Most of use like shiny things. Like birds... Some like to keep gold, some like swords, some like gems, some like pretty princess. Some just don't. I hoards weapons, do I need them? No... But I like them, so so so so much! =D
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I KNOW this is the oldest question in the game and I'm sure it's been answered a million ways but I'm wondering if there's a Pathfinder answer. I have searched all through these boards, on the Golarion wiki and on the PFSRD but so far nothing. Does PF have a specific reason for draconic hoards?Dragons have hoards because, in myths around the world and in many cultures, dragons were examples of evil, power and greed and hoards were used to to tell the tales of how dragons were HUGE examples of those vices.
It made for good storytelling and was/is entrenched in many (but not ALL) cultures. I am GUESSING that is is most influenced by norse myth.
Great wealth has always been a sign of power and influence so naturally it was applied to draconic legends to exemplify their power.
This actually makes me think that Paizo missed out on a chance for something really distinct.
Given that golarian is so big on its seven deadly sins thing, they could have come up with two more chromatics and had them represent the vices and make some metallics to represent the virtues.
Like...
Blue dragons are perpetually envious of Red's power.
Red's are intensely prideful.
And so on.
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This actually makes me think that Paizo missed out on a chance for something really distinct.Given that golarian is so big on its seven deadly sins thing, they could have come up with two more chromatics and had them represent the vices and make some metallics to represent the virtues.
Like...
Blue dragons are perpetually envious of Red's power.
Red's are intensely prideful.
And so on.
I sort of agree - but some of the sins would have issues.
1. They're all greed. Even the good ones. That's why they have hoards.
2. Lust? I realize that most dragons can polymorph eventually. (Hence all the half-dragons.) But for the most part Paizo tries to stay PG13 at most. (despite the succubus demon and its grappling) This one could cause issues.
You could probably do the other five without much issue. But the seven virtues would cause even more problems. How can a dragon be the epitome of diligence? How about charity while keeping a hoard? Chastity? They're always found in pairs and said pairs give each other roses etc?
Pride, envy, wrath, sloth, and maybe even gluttony are all doable. But after that... *shrug*
to me at least it seems that dragons seem to personify the Id, and to some degree all the seven deadly sins, or in general personality faults in an otherwise unstoppable intellect. They're the poster child for why these personality traits are bad, because even with all their intellect, they're still getting killed by adventurers.
generally all the dragons have all the seven sins, but each type of dragon seems to emphasize some personality fault or some base instinct winning out over intellect. They embody the Id winning out over the Super Ego on a grand scale, as they are primal power incarnate.
the hoard is merely an material or physical example of their greed.
you have to realize, dragons don't really exist, so anything they appear to do is because we think that's what they would do. So, we think they should be the penultimate example of primal power and all the baser instincts that come with that, so they do.
Also, on the digestive tract thing, but... not every dragon breathes fire, so a white dragon would just freeze anything it eats, right?
I sort of agree - but some of the sins would have issues.
1. They're all greed. Even the good ones. That's why they have hoards.
2. Lust? I realize that most dragons can polymorph eventually. (Hence all the half-dragons.) But for the most part Paizo tries to stay PG13 at most. (despite the succubus demon and its grappling) This one could cause issues.
You could probably do the other five without much issue. But the seven virtues would cause even more problems. How can a dragon be the epitome of diligence? How about charity while keeping a hoard? Chastity? They're always found in pairs and said pairs give each other roses etc?
Pride, envy, wrath, sloth, and maybe even gluttony are all doable. But after that... *shrug*
Ahem, I believe there is the preoccupation with virgin maidens some of the depraved of my kindred have, in myth at least.
In addition, lust need not always be for of a sexual nature; there can be many types of lust- lust for knowledge, lust for fame or recognition, or power, for example, power over people, being one of the most prevalent of them.
to me at least it seems that dragons seem to personify the Id, and to some degree all the seven deadly sins, or in general personality faults in an otherwise unstoppable intellect. They're the poster child for why these personality traits are bad, because even with all their intellect, they're still getting killed by adventurers.
generally all the dragons have all the seven sins, but each type of dragon seems to emphasize some personality fault or some base instinct winning out over intellect. They embody the Id winning out over the Super Ego on a grand scale, as they are primal power incarnate.
the hoard is merely an material or physical example of their greed.
** spoiler omitted **
you have to realize, dragons don't really exist, so anything they appear to do is because we think that's what they would do. So, we think they should be the penultimate example of primal power and all the baser instincts that come with that, so they do.
Also, on the digestive tract thing, but... not every dragon breathes fire, so a white dragon would just freeze anything it eats, right?
I will forgive the slight that you say we are merely figments of your humanoid imaginations, but I must offer a correction on something else- dragons as embodiments of sin is primarily a thing of Western fantasy and the cultures and myths it draws from; other superficially similar creatures like the Chinese dragons will vary. So please give us evil dragons credit where credit is due.
Of course, perhaps you humans are going about the question the wrong way. I mean, who WOULDN'T hoard treasure. Certain, you petty adventurers seem to be packing more loot than even we have in our dragon hoards. And you will face the worst of our kind with intense ferocity, but lo and behold, when a meager rust monster or disenchanter comes scurrying along, you flee as if a fate worse than death awaited you.
Some human theorists may say that the first of my kind were human(oid)s who were so sinful they transformed into our ancestors through some sort of twisted Lamarckian evolution. That theory is just absurd to me; if I heard that from somebody, I'd like to- oh what is the phrase- burn him to a cinder? Or maybe for you weak soft fleshy beings it's more, reach out and punch them?
Because I don't trust banks........
Of course some of the more enlightened of us would like to BE the bank. I certainly wouldn't mind becoming so rich adventurers couldn't come after me!
since it hasn't been shared yet , see some re-imaginings of Dragon hoards. Who says it has to be coins or magic?
since it hasn't been shared yet , see some re-imaginings of Dragon hoards. Who says it has to be coins or magic?I have used the book one before, but now I have a strong desire to use the stuffed animals and the yarn ones. The party's wizard better keep a close eye on his cat familiar or there might be trouble in the yarn one.
Better yet, hoard of cats. Someone find me a swarm template, cats are tiny therefor can be a swarm of 300. (worth ~9gp on the open market. convert a dragon's cash allowance to THAT)
since it hasn't been shared yet , see some re-imaginings of Dragon hoards. Who says it has to be coins or magic?
Im rather fond of the music boxes hoard.
"Why does the sun come up? Or are the stars just pin-holes in the curtain of night?"
This won't sound very scientific of me, but perhaps some mysteries are better left unanswered?
We're talking about a game. I hope. What kind of dragon is more interesting? I like the hoarding dragon. In fact, I like it so much that when I GM I usually make sure that some of the best magic items to be found in the whole campaign will be found (if at all) in a dragon hoard. Not because it is logical, but because of the fantastic and romantic notion of the greedy dragon and his hoard.
If another GM prefers dragons who live spartan, ascetic lives with little regard for material wealth, then he should certainly play them that way.
Are we trying to justify the stereotype or are we asking why the stereotype is so popular? It is popular because of Tolkien.
I can think of many reasons why dragons might hoard and many excellent ones have been proffered above. To some extent, I almost find it more fun when it isn't analyzed in a clinical fashion. Who cares? Or, "because that's how I like 'em!"
If we must come up with a reason, I like a combined, layered, answer. On a very primal, perhaps subconscious level, they just feel compelled to hoard valuables. Maybe there is some mystical connection to the very first dragons.
On another level, it *is* an extension of their personal power. You can't kill and eat everyone. Gold buys influence. Even if you can eat everyone, with enough influence you don't have to. Sure, a dragon's raw strength and arcane prowess can give him an undeniable edge in pulling the strings of power among the "lesser" races, but gold goes even further. A manipulative red dragon might be bribing the power behind the throne. And the power behind the power behind the throne. And the Captain of the Watch. And the Guildmaster of the Thieves' Guild. And the Harbor Master. And the girl who peels potatoes in the King's cousin's scullery. In this way, his power isn't just as far as he can reach with his claws, tail, teeth, wings, breath, spells, etc., but instead goes farther than anyone (besides the dragon) actually realizes. The tendrils of his gold-bought treachery might wind throughout this kingdom and the next, thanks to the weakness and foibles of the mortals with whom he toys.
If that's the case, then we have (to me) a more interesting question: does he manipulate people because he craves power. . . or simply because it entertains him?
What does a dragon do for fun? There's no internet or television. Sure, we might be more scared of a brutal assault, but for a powerful creature that is both evil and a genius, perhaps the slow burn is more satisfying. Dragons live for centuries or millennia. I could see a particularly ruthless and wickedly brilliant dragon setting up the chess pieces to put two good-aligned nations at each other's throats and savoring the payoff as tens of thousands of mortals die, not from dragonfire, but by each other's hands.
It is more complex than any game of chess. It is brilliant. It is evil. It is. . .expensive. Gold can buy many things. If it can buy decades of entertainment and the deaths of untold numbers of self-righteous "lesser" beings, then why *wouldn't* a dragon want gold? Who says he keeps it all? He has to spend it, but he spends it slowly and only where it can do the most "good". And because he is an enterprising beast, he makes sure he keeps some coin flowing back in as well. This also explains why he'd want plenty of smaller coins. Some of the people he is bribing are better bribed with hundreds of silver pieces than with rare works of art.
Because he is vain, brilliant and nigh-immortal, he needs many forms of entertainment. So he'll keep the very best pieces for his own enjoyment. Artwork, sculptures, rare wines, flawless gems, magic items--whether useful, whimsical or just entertaining--they all have a place in his lair.
Better yet, hoard of cats. Someone find me a swarm template, cats are tiny therefor can be a swarm of 300. (worth ~9gp on the open market. convert a dragon's cash allowance to THAT)since it hasn't been shared yet , see some re-imaginings of Dragon hoards. Who says it has to be coins or magic?I have used the book one before, but now I have a strong desire to use the stuffed animals and the yarn ones. The party's wizard better keep a close eye on his cat familiar or there might be trouble in the yarn one.
That my dear Darigaaz is a Catsplosion! 9000 gp of cats is 300,000 cats for 1,000 cat swarms. Perfect for destroying Dwarves...
Long-lived apex predator has stuff. How could it be any other way?
and things
What does a dragon do for fun? There's no internet or television.
This becomes remarkably less of a problem once you learn Greater Scrying.
Of course, learning Greater Scrying is something that comes only with age. Many of the less patient of our kind will prefer to not wait until they are of proper age and instead procure a crystal ball (preferably with all the neat upgrades that makes manipulating watching those curious little mortals so fun.)
Of course, crystal balls don't exactly come cheap. And there you have the real thing many of my kindred gather all that coin for.
What does a dragon do for fun? There's no internet or television.This becomes remarkably less of a problem once you learn Greater Scrying.
Of course, learning Greater Scrying is something that comes only with age. Many of the less patient of our kind will prefer to not wait until they are of proper age and instead procure a crystal ball (preferably with all the neat upgrades that makes
manipulatingwatching those curious little mortals so fun.)Of course, crystal balls don't exactly come cheap. And there you have the real thing many of my kindred gather all that coin for.
But even Greater Scrying just allows you to watch, correct? Surely that isn't as much fun as playing an elaborate game with the mortal kingdoms as pawns? Why be a mere spectator when you can be a participant? Why be a participant when you can be the puppet master?
Edit: I didn't notice the word that was lined out. Perhaps you're agreeing with me?