Why don't fighters take Master Craftsman?


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So, often I see people complain about fighters not having the resources they need to do things. Most of them say you can't fight CR appropriate things because they need magic gear and thus 100% rely on spellcasters to do the things they need to do.

This feat is core and has been available the whole time.
Sure, I guess it's a 3 feat tax to have access to all your important magic items at half cost without needing pesky spellcasters and it does require skill investment.

But per the crafting rules, you can substitute a craft check in place of a spellcraft check. If you're a Lore Warden you can just make a spellcraft check.

Hell, let's look at a fighter build:
human, 20 point buy:
16(18) STR
14 DEX
14 CON
12 INT
10 WIS
8 CHA

So that's 4 skills per level. Max out perception and craft (weapons and armor) along with Profession (tailor) and you can literally make your own magic armor, weapons, and wondrous items. Plus extra skills to put in whatever, unless you don't wanna go human. And there's still favored class.
By 8th level you feasibly have the means to make yourself some of these or even lower level if you just want these.

Not to mention that you can also make your own stat items, cloak of resistance, amulet of natural armor, and even a headband of wisdom to boost those will saves.

Three feats seems like a lot to any other character, but if I choose to just craft a keen weapon instead of taking Improved Critical, and I can also get my magic weapons on the cheap, is that not worth the feat?

Is Craft Wondrous Item not worth taking instead of Iron Will?

Retraining cheese aside, this seems like something that I either missed being a fad, or is something people dismiss completely when dissing on the fighter.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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Hmm...

Have you tried looking at a sampling of common items that such a fighter would want to craft, what the DC to craft them is (after taking into account the +5 for each spell or other requirement not available), and what level the fighter would therefore have to be in order to craft it with a take-10?

I'm speculating that the DCs will be prohibitively high, but I haven't done the research yet.


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The dc's aren't bad. The problem is waiting until 7th level before one can actually take a crafting feat. Master Craftsman can't be taken until 5th level, and then you don't get another feat slot to take a crafting feat until 7th.

I tried this exact route back when the APG was new and let me tell ya it sucked.


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@Jiggy: let's take a look at some.

Cloak of Resistance: Caster level 5, one spell pre-req. So, DC = 5 + 5 + 5 = 15. The Fighter listed above could theoretically Take-10 at first level (Int bonus of + 2 and Craft is a class skill so another +3) but would have to wait until lvl 5 to have the 5 Ranks in a Craft skill.

+1 Keen Long Sword: Caster level 10, one spell pre-req. So, DC = 5 + 10 + 5 = 20. Since Master Craftsman allows the Fighter to count Craft ranks as caster level, he could create this item at lvl 6 at the earliest (this item counts as +2 total bonus). At lvl 6, the Fighter's Craft Weaponsmith skill should be Class Skill +3, Int +2, Ranks +6 = 11. So, he could Take-10 on this one, too.

Wings of Flying: Caster level 10, one spell pre-req. So, DC = 5 + 10 + 5 = 20. Similar difficulty in creating as the sword listed above.

Doesn't seem like the DC's would be all that terribly difficult for most items the Fighter would want. Not, this isn't including the skill boost from the Master Craftsman Feat.

@Darigaaz: That's the bigger issue, really, having to wait until lvl 7 to be able to actually make anything, even though your skill checks would be sufficient to meet the DC with ease much earlier.


It's a great tax that shouldn't exist.

As for skills, you already spend points to get a 12int, something putting a caster already ahead.

And then, to hastily make a +2 str belt p.e. you need a DC of 5+8+5+5= 23
Class skill and +1 from int means you need lvl 9 to make it quickly (2days)

On the other side, a wizard at lvl 3 will have a base +4 to int, so he will have +10 to his spellcraft, +2 from his familiar helping for 22 take 10, 27 with crafter's fortune

And he makes it in 1 day.
6 lvls earlier. 1/2 of the time needed. And without wasting a feat, or skill points.
Or
1 lvl earlier. 1/4 of the time needed. And etc.


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Belt/head band of [stat goes here], CL 8th, craft DC 18. Requires 4 ranks in craft when taking 10, 4 ranks, +3 class skill, +1 INT (proposing the build earlier in the thread) equals a check of 18. You can actually make this check before you can qualify for the feat.

Belt of Physical Might/Headband of Mental Prowess, CL 12th, DC 27. Requires 13 ranks to succeed when taking 10, assuming no other modifiers.

Belt of Physical Perfection/Headband of Mental Superiority, CL 16th, DC 36. Requires a higher INT to achieve without skill focus or other modifiers. 20 ranks + 3 class skill + 1 INT = 34, meaning you need at least a 16 INT, or access to skill boosting magic, feats, or cooperative crafting.

Amulet of Natural Armor, CL 5th, DC 15. Even lower than the stat one, remember your ranks count as your CL. Can be achieved as soon as you take the feat.

Cloak of Resistance, CL 5th, DC 15. Same as the Amulet.

Winged Boots, CL 8th, same as the stat items.

Wings of Flying, CL 10th, DC 20. Requires 6 ranks. Taking 10 +6 ranks +3 class skill +1 INT.

Gloves of Dueling, CL 5th, DC 15. Requires 4 ranks.

Consider the Focused Study Human for access to Skill Focus, which grants +3 then +6 at 10th level for your crafting check, when attempting the perfect stat items.

EDIT: Retraining from Ultimate Campaign can let you gain these feats as soon as 5th level.


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There is also the issue that non-Lore Warden fighters can often be strapped for skill points.

Additionally, some groups like to maintain a sort of role division, which this could violate.

It also might not fit the concept of the character. Not everybody imagines their fighter as craftspeople of legendary skill.


master_marshmallow wrote:

Belt/head band of [stat goes here], CL 8th, craft DC 18. Requires 4 ranks in craft when taking 10, 4 ranks, +3 class skill, +1 INT (proposing the build earlier in the thread) equals a check of 18. You can actually make this check before you can qualify for the feat.

Belt of Physical Might/Headband of Mental Prowess, CL 12th, DC 27. Requires 13 ranks to succeed when taking 10, assuming no other modifiers.

Belt of Physical Perfection/Headband of Mental Superiority, CL 16th, DC 36. Requires a higher INT to achieve without skill focus or other modifiers. 20 ranks + 3 class skill + 1 INT = 34, meaning you need at least a 16 INT, or access to skill boosting magic, feats, or cooperative crafting.

Amulet of Natural Armor, CL 5th, DC 15. Even lower than the stat one, remember your ranks count as your CL. Can be achieved as soon as you take the feat.

Cloak of Resistance, CL 5th, DC 15. Same as the Amulet.

Winged Boots, CL 8th, same as the stat items.

Wings of Flying, CL 10th, DC 20. Requires 6 ranks. Taking 10 +6 ranks +3 class skill +1 INT.

Gloves of Dueling, CL 5th, DC 15. Requires 4 ranks.

Consider the Focused Study Human for access to Skill Focus, which grants +3 then +6 at 10th level for your crafting check, when attempting the perfect stat items.

EDIT: Retraining from Ultimate Campaign can let you gain these feats as soon as 5th level.

So you spend attribute points

Skill points
Extra feat(s)

To make stuff at the QUARTER of speed compared to a caster...


But it's still an option.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Because in most of the discussion you're thinking about, it's about a Theorycraft problem that doesn't nearly come into play as much as it's talked about on the boards.

Quite a few PC fighters are allied with spellcasters who are willing to item craft, and/or the GM plans item drops with more than modicum of forethought.


shroudb wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:

Belt/head band of [stat goes here], CL 8th, craft DC 18. Requires 4 ranks in craft when taking 10, 4 ranks, +3 class skill, +1 INT (proposing the build earlier in the thread) equals a check of 18. You can actually make this check before you can qualify for the feat.

Belt of Physical Might/Headband of Mental Prowess, CL 12th, DC 27. Requires 13 ranks to succeed when taking 10, assuming no other modifiers.

Belt of Physical Perfection/Headband of Mental Superiority, CL 16th, DC 36. Requires a higher INT to achieve without skill focus or other modifiers. 20 ranks + 3 class skill + 1 INT = 34, meaning you need at least a 16 INT, or access to skill boosting magic, feats, or cooperative crafting.

Amulet of Natural Armor, CL 5th, DC 15. Even lower than the stat one, remember your ranks count as your CL. Can be achieved as soon as you take the feat.

Cloak of Resistance, CL 5th, DC 15. Same as the Amulet.

Winged Boots, CL 8th, same as the stat items.

Wings of Flying, CL 10th, DC 20. Requires 6 ranks. Taking 10 +6 ranks +3 class skill +1 INT.

Gloves of Dueling, CL 5th, DC 15. Requires 4 ranks.

Consider the Focused Study Human for access to Skill Focus, which grants +3 then +6 at 10th level for your crafting check, when attempting the perfect stat items.

EDIT: Retraining from Ultimate Campaign can let you gain these feats as soon as 5th level.

So you spend attribute points

Skill points
Extra feat(s)

To make stuff at the QUARTER of speed compared to a caster...

Are you telling me that the feats aren't worth it? Doubtful imo.


An Eldritch guardian with a valet familiar would be a better crafter, yes you lose two more feats, but it doubles your craft rate and makes many critical skills class skills.

Idk. Seems like Eldritch Knight or Magus would be the better crafter, and sense you are already adding magic to your build, you might as well be a spellcaster.


Because in most campaigns the fighter can just buy or find his magic weapon. It is a good feat for fulfilling the trope of the legendary blacksmith's son who forges a blade of legend to slay a terrible beast.
In practice it's usually impractical because the DM would have already supplied something better.
In my games I have weapons forged by non-casters to be special leveling items...but that's just a home fix.
Most of the time it's easier to stroll over to "Ye olde magic shoppe".


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Larkspire wrote:

Because in most campaigns the fighter can just buy or find his magic weapon. It is a good feat for fulfilling the trope of the legendary blacksmith's son who forges a blade of legend to slay a terrible beast.

In practice it's usually impractical because the DM would have already supplied something better.
In my games I have weapons forged by non-casters to be special leveling items...but that's just a home fix.
Most of the time it's easier to stroll over to "Ye olde magic shoppe".

In my home games, I just got rid of the big 6

IMHO: Magic items should be fun, not needed to swing a sword correctly.


@ Shroudb - where are you getting quarter speed from?

Eh, the feat can work. In my Carrion Crown game the ranger (who'd given up spellcasting through an archetype) took master craftsman so that he could work on his own weapons and armor.

It worked out fine for him. The player was thrilled to make his own sun blade. (Not surprisingly, a sun blade is an awesomely brutal weapon to have in Carrion Crown.)

Agreed with LazarX - in most games it's a nonissue. Many fighters wouldn't take master craftsman because one of the actual spellcasters already took crafting feats.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I've had more than one fighter who did take Master Craftsman. The most recent was a Duelist in Kingmaker. It was awesome, I had a room just for my swords.


Rhedyn wrote:

An Eldritch guardian with a valet familiar would be a better crafter, yes you lose two more feats, but it doubles your craft rate and makes many critical skills class skills.

Idk. Seems like Eldritch Knight or Magus would be the better crafter, and sense you are already adding magic to your build, you might as well be a spellcaster.

That's actually an awesome archetype, since the familiar can give you the equivalent of a feat, plus it gives you Alertness.

You can also craft hastily by increasing the DC by 5 more, which isn't much to us already.

Plus the familiar guy there can also aid you, for another +2.

BUILD TIME:

Focused Study Human Eldritch Guardian 10
STR 22 (16 base, +2 racial, +4 item)
DEX 20 (14 base +2 levels +4 item)
CON 14
INT 12
WIS 10
CHA 8

Traits: Defender of the Society, Student of Philosophy/Pragmatic Activator/Bruising Intellect
1) Weapon Focus Craft Wondrous Item, Familiar (Compsognathus); Skill Focus (Perception)
2) Share Training
3) Power Attack
4) Weapon Specialization Weapon Focus
5) Master Craftsman
6) Weapon Specialization
7) Craft Magic Arms and Armor
8) Greater Weapon Focus; Skill Focus (Spellcraft)
9) Critical Focus
10) Cornugon Smash

Wealth Total: 62,000 gp
gear:
Celestial Plate Armor, (12,500)
[http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-armor/specific-magic-shields/celestial-shield]Celestial Shield[/url], (6,670)
Belt of Physical Might +4, (20,000)
+2 keen katana, (9,350)
+3 cloak of resistance (4,500)
+2 amulet of natural armor (4,000)
+2 Headband of Vast Intelligence (Spellcraft)

leftover gp 980

Skills:
Perception +21; Craft Weapons and Armor +17; Bluff/Intimidate/Diplomacy +15; [skill goes here]; Spellcraft +21

At 10th level your base Spellcraft check to craft items is 33 when taking 10. That's enough to craft all of these items in half the time.

You also have plenty of skills to go around.

Weapon Style is pretty generic, uses two handed katana to do damage, at the beginning of the day use your celestial armor + shield to cast overland flight at 8th level which lasts the whole day.

AC is 30(32) (10 base +12 armor +5 DEX +2 natural +1 trait +2 aid another once per round from familiar)
Not including shield.

You can opt for a different weapon like the scimitar and use your shield for an extra +4, for an AC of 34 or 36 when your familiar aids you.


Zhangar wrote:

@ Shroudb - where are you getting quarter speed from?

Eh, the feat can work. In my Carrion Crown game the ranger (who'd given up spellcasting through an archetype) took master craftsman so that he could work on his own weapons and armor.

It worked out fine for him. The player was thrilled to make his own sun blade. (Not surprisingly, a sun blade is an awesomely brutal weapon to have in Carrion Crown.)

Agreed with LazarX - in most games it's a nonissue. Many fighters wouldn't take master craftsman because one of the actual spellcasters already took crafting feats.

quarter speed is due to no hastened and no valet familiar.

to make the dc's for hastened you would need at minimum like 9th lvl for the +2belt p.e.
valet familiar isn't even an option unless you spend another two feats.

and yeah, maybe at the +2belt, the 4 vs 1 day isn't much of a problem. but at the +5 sword the 1 month vs 1 week is huge.


Considering valet familiars just came out, and most spellcasters don't get familiars by default, I wouldn't factor them into normal crafting speed calculations =P

To be honest, on a number of items a master craftsman won't be any worse off than a cleric, sorcerer, or other non-int-based caster.

(Edit: Okay, the cleric actually has a lot of spell access. An oracle would probably be a better example. So I'm guess I'm saying a master craftsman honestly isn't that much worse off when compared to most non-int based spontaneous spellcasters.)


I was toying with this idea once (a melee that crafts his own items).

This may be of some interest (from the Impossible Bloodline for Sorcerers):

"Spontaneous Generation: At 3rd level, you gain Craft Wondrous Item as a bonus feat. In addition, when you craft a magic item (except a potion, a spell-trigger item, or a spell-completion item), you may ignore one spell prerequisite without increasing the creation DC. You can ignore an additional spell prerequisite at 9th, 15th, and 20th levels."

It takes three feats: Skill Focus:Knowledge Engineering (hey why not), the heritage feat, and the improved heritage feat.

But if you are really going all out with this idea (and I think it would be fun and effective, even if not totally optimized).

If I read this feature correctly, I imagine that you pretty much craft items as quickly as a true caster though that isn't exactly spelled out. Plus you can flip between arcane and divine pretty easily.

The spell-trigger and spell-completion things kind of are a downer though.


Criticism:

1. Craft(Weapons) and Craft(Armor) are two separate skills as listed in the CRB.
2. Item Creation feats do not double your WBL. 25% is the guideline for one feat, 50% more if you have multiple.
3. Still doesn't fix the Fighter's issues. When people say the Fighter lacks resources, it's not about the gear. It's about the Fighter needing spells cast on him to do his job competently. A Paladin can heal himself and the Barbarian requires less resources to aid.

In depth:

The Paladin and Barbarian have far better defenses. The Paladin and Barbarian are more unlikely to fail a save and need a spell to fix them. The Paladin heals himself and the Barbarian takes less damage whilst both have comparable ACs.

4. The opportunity cost to do this makes any Martial who chooses not to do this a better addition to the party. "But I can craft gear for the party!"

Ultimate Campaign wrote:
If you are creating items for other characters in the party, the increased wealth for the other characters should come out of your increased allotment.

Of course not following the rules and guidelines will let you play the powerful "I have money class."

Silver Crusade

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....or you could take the Leadership feat and have a cohort that crafts for you...!

Sovereign Court

A Ftr with Master Craftsman is a good option yes.

Max out ONE crafting skill (either armor or weapons)

Buy Headband of Vast Intelligence + 6 to get 3 more craft skills (armorORweapon, jewelry, clothing -- note that Craft is class skill for Ftr not Spellcraft...)

Take Master Craftsman at 5th, Craft Arms and Armor at 7th, Craft Wondrous Items at 9th.

Yes, it costs the Ftr 3 combat feats, but some serious wealth / gear advantage in the long run...

(NOTE: you start with a +2 headband and when you get to 9th level you upgrade it yourself via Craft Wondrous Item)


maybe not 3 feat easy - level 5 master craftsman (weapons) - level 7 create magic arms/armor - level 9 master craftsman (armor) - level 11 master craftsman (bowyer) - level 13 master craftsman (tailor) - level 15 craft wondrous items - level 17 master craftsman (jeweler). mind you I might have read the feat wrong, but I'm pretty sure that master craftsman only allows you to create magic items which you can create with the skill which you are a master craftsman in, and cannot envision how skill at crafting bows can be used to create a magic cloak.

---- also if master craftsman (rules lawyer) works for all wondrous items as well as arms and armor, there is no need for the headband of intellect, the rules for using master craftsman for magic items state that the chosen skill is used for the checks.


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From my understanding of the feat you can't take Master Craftsman more than once, and the feat stipulates that you must use your chosen skill to make the item. IE if you take Craft Magical Arms And Armor you have to choose to specialize in Craft: armor, Craft: weapons, or Craft: bows. Depending on what skill you choose you're utilizing between 50% and 10% of Craft Magical Arms and Armor compared to a normal caster, who pays a feat less than you and only has to worry about spellcraft.
If you take Craft Wondrous Items, your best bet is either Craft: Jewelry/Profession: Jewelsmith or Craft: Clothing/Profession: Tailor, both of which gives you access to less than half the options offered by the feat.

Conversely you can argue that you can use your chosen skill to make ALL skill checks needed with the feat. That makes the feat better (giving you half the advantage of a spellcaster) but many GMs will balk at the idea that your great skill at basketweaving lets you create elixirs, magical incense, a folding boat, a clamor box, an escape ladder, a portable hole, a manual of war or a submarine.


The Eldritch Guardian adds Perception, Spellcraft, and Use Magic Device as class skills, and can gain a valet familiar.

Master craftsman uses your ranks in your skill as your caster level, and it states that you can use it in place of your Spellcraft check, not that you have to.

My build above doesn't bother because he has Spellcraft maxed along with Skill Focus.

The additional wealth means your amulet is only a +1, your cloak is probably only +2, and your weapon is probably only +1 and keen.
Not the end of the wield.

And wealth needs to be adjusted for retaining the first level feat to craft wondrous item at fifth level when he picks up master craftsman.


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I believe Master Craftsman stipulates that you must* use your skill in place of spellcraft?

Quote:
Benefit: Choose one Craft or Profession skill in which you possess at least 5 ranks. You receive a +2 bonus on your chosen Craft or Profession skill. Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats. You can create magic items using these feats, substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your total caster level. You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item.

That in turn leads to the scene where the GM asks why your Craft: Canoe skill lets you make magical headgear.

*edited a typo.


Zhangar wrote:

Considering valet familiars just came out, and most spellcasters don't get familiars by default, I wouldn't factor them into normal crafting speed calculations =P

To be honest, on a number of items a master craftsman won't be any worse off than a cleric, sorcerer, or other non-int-based caster.

(Edit: Okay, the cleric actually has a lot of spell access. An oracle would probably be a better example. So I'm guess I'm saying a master craftsman honestly isn't that much worse off when compared to most non-int based spontaneous spellcasters.)

valet familiar came out AGES ago. it's not one of the new archetypes. it was one of the most common, if not THE most common before familiar folio came out.

considering that both wizard and witch, both main int, have a familiar.
considering that a staggering lot of alchemists take familiar (also int)
and magi being int as well.

then you have the fact that all those, build EVERYTHING out of a single skill (spellcraft) as opposed to master craftsman needing a ton of skills to cover everything, at least 3 that i can count.
Then you enter that a lot of the spells are accessible, so no +5 needed for some of the items, as well as spells like crafter's fortune (+5 to a craft) and etc

the need to spend so many recources outside of your profession just to do something that others do much more easy i simply don't see the point.

similary, one can build a (non-EK) melee wizard. but does he compares to a barbarian? that's more or less the same.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Kudaku wrote:

From my understanding of the feat you can't take Master Craftsman more than once, and the feat stipulates that you must use your chosen skill to make the item. IE if you take Craft Magical Arms And Armor you have to choose to specialize in Craft: armor, Craft: weapons, or Craft: bows. Depending on what skill you choose you're utilizing between 50% and 10% of Craft Magical Arms and Armor compared to a normal caster, who pays a feat less than you and only has to worry about spellcraft.

If you take Craft Wondrous Items, your best bet is either Craft: Jewelry/Profession: Jewelsmith or Craft: Clothing/Profession: Tailor, both of which gives you access to less than half the options offered by the feat.

Conversely you can argue that you can use your chosen skill to make ALL skill checks needed with the feat. That makes the feat better (giving you half the advantage of a spellcaster) but many GMs will balk at the idea that your great skill at basketweaving lets you create elixirs, magical incense, a folding boat, a clamor box, an escape ladder, a portable hole, a manual of war or a submarine.

THIS.

This is why the feat is not taken and considered a trap feat.

You can only enchant items you have the Skill to make.

So, you spend a feat on Magical Craftsman, you spend a feat on Create Magic Arms and Armor or Create Wondrous item, and then you have to pick a Craft skill to put points into.

Resulting in you spending twice the feats of a caster, skill points where they do not, and getting less then half out of the feat that they do.

Paying AT LEAST FIVE TIMES AS MUCH as a spellcaster is why this is considered an unpopular feat.

If it was One Feat (Magical Craftsman (Magic arms and armor) + Another feat (MAgical Craftstman (Wondrous items)), and the crafting thing was thrown wide open...yeah, good feat, a little more pricey then a caster since you'd still have to invest skill points, but useful and believable.

That's not what this is. I can see why they'd want to restrict the feat to one skill (creating non-magical experts who can specialize their crafting skills so high they can make magic items), but from a cost standpoint it's a punch in the gut to non-casters.

==Aelryinth


On top of the issues Kudaku and Aelryinth mentioned (which are already terrible) I'd mention that spellcraft is a far more useful skill than craft. Even if you won't be making a single magic item, spellcraft is something most casters would want to invest in.

Meanwhile, Craft has no purpose beyond making things.


Saldiven wrote:


+1 Keen Long Sword: Caster level 10, one spell pre-req. So, DC = 5 + 10 + 5 = 20. Since Master Craftsman allows the Fighter to count Craft ranks as caster level, he could create this item at lvl 6 at the earliest (this item counts as +2 total bonus). At lvl 6, the Fighter's Craft Weaponsmith skill should be Class Skill +3, Int +2, Ranks +6 = 11. So, he could Take-10 on this one, too.

I may be mistaken, but the feat says ranks count as caster level, not total skill modifier, so the fighter would still need to be level 10 to have the necessary ranks.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I wouldn't say there was anything wrong with doing so. It's how a Bruenor forges an Aegis-Fang for his adopted human son.


eakratz wrote:
Saldiven wrote:


+1 Keen Long Sword: Caster level 10, one spell pre-req. So, DC = 5 + 10 + 5 = 20. Since Master Craftsman allows the Fighter to count Craft ranks as caster level, he could create this item at lvl 6 at the earliest (this item counts as +2 total bonus). At lvl 6, the Fighter's Craft Weaponsmith skill should be Class Skill +3, Int +2, Ranks +6 = 11. So, he could Take-10 on this one, too.
I may be mistaken, but the feat says ranks count as caster level, not total skill modifier, so the fighter would still need to be level 10 to have the necessary ranks.

You are quite right.

So the DC is 25 since his Caster Level is lower.


Would Profession (Blacksmith) not qualify?
At least for arms, armor, headpieces, bracers, and anything else metal.

You could theoretically really cheese it up and take profession (resale) and use that since it doesn't specify that the skill needs to make sense.
Or only be able to make half the stuff, or just make sure that it's made out of metal or something else appropriate for a blacksmith to produce.


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Profession (magic item crafter)?

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Craft (Blacksmith) is used to make common trade good items of metal...pots, pans, hinges, keys, ornamental gates.

The constructions of arms and armor has two specific Craft Skills tied to it.

ANd Magical Artisan specifically cites Craft Skills, not profession skills.

I'm not saying it can't be a useful feat...it can save you 100k on weapon costs over time.
However, the same feat would save a caster 300k on weapon AND armor costs (Wpn/Bow/Armor/Shield), and not require spending ranks on a Craft skill.

It's massively biased against non-casters. Ideally, you'd want to use it to make useful Wondrous ITems on demand...except the variety of them is going to be so wide you aren't going to be able to afford the Craft Ranks to do so.
Example: Wondrous Items: Magic Helms (Craft/Armorsmith), Amulet/Nat ARmor (Crft/Jewelry); Cloak/Belt/Boots/Gloves/Gaunts (Craft/leatherworker); Elixirs/glues/solvents/paints (Craft/Alchemy); Magic Carpets (Craft/Weaving); Crystal Balls/Mirrors (Craft/Glassmaker)

etc etc etc.

==Aelryinth


master_marshmallow wrote:

Would Profession (Blacksmith) not qualify?

At least for arms, armor, headpieces, bracers, and anything else metal.

You could theoretically really cheese it up and take profession (resale) and use that since it doesn't specify that the skill needs to make sense.
Or only be able to make half the stuff, or just make sure that it's made out of metal or something else appropriate for a blacksmith to produce.

No because the CRB flat out states what skills are required.

When crafting armor you can either use Spellcraft(If using normal crafting which gives you a choice) or Craft(Armor) skill as Master Craftsman requires you to.

Weapons is either Craft(Bows) for Magic Bows and Arrows or Craft(Weapons) which lets you do everything else.

Only Craft Wondrous Item is vague in it's applicable skills.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Note that leather armor probably falls under leatherworking, not armorsmith, although I'd probably let it slide, as I'm a softie.

==Aelryinth


Scavion wrote:
eakratz wrote:
Saldiven wrote:


+1 Keen Long Sword: Caster level 10, one spell pre-req. So, DC = 5 + 10 + 5 = 20. Since Master Craftsman allows the Fighter to count Craft ranks as caster level, he could create this item at lvl 6 at the earliest (this item counts as +2 total bonus). At lvl 6, the Fighter's Craft Weaponsmith skill should be Class Skill +3, Int +2, Ranks +6 = 11. So, he could Take-10 on this one, too.
I may be mistaken, but the feat says ranks count as caster level, not total skill modifier, so the fighter would still need to be level 10 to have the necessary ranks.

You are quite right.

So the DC is 25 since his Caster Level is lower.

No, he is mistaken. Keen does not have any caster level prerequisite. Unlike, for instance, Spell Storing.


PRD wrote:

Keen: This ability doubles the threat range of a weapon. Only piercing or slashing melee weapons can be keen. If you roll this property randomly for an inappropriate weapon, reroll. This benefit doesn't stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon (such as the keen edge spell or the Improved Critical feat).

Moderate transmutation; CL 10th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, keen edge; Price +1 bonus.

linky


By default the DC would be 25 since Keen has a CL of 10. However the fighter is able to set a lower caster level for his keen longsword (the CL listed in the books is simply a suggestion unless it's listed under Requirements), the lowest he could set it to is CL 5 (the lowest caster level able to cast Keen Edge, needed for Keen). There's a FAQ on the topic here. If he reduces the CL to 5 the craft DC is 5 (baseline) +5 (CL) +5 (no keen edge) = DC 15.

For what it's worth I am happy that Master Craftsman is in the CRB - it opened up an option not available for non-casters in 3.5. However nonmagical crafting has gotten zero support since the CRB was released and most people would instead avoid the problem by getting a low level SLA and use that caster level to qualify for wholesale crafting feats instead. Unfortunately the recent FAQ on SLAs shuts down that loophole. At the bare minimum Master Craftsman should also work with Brew Potion, Craft Magical Tattoo and Craft Construct.

I've seen a few suggestions on how to tweak Master Craftsman to make it more palatable. One is that you treat your ranks in spellcraft as your caster level, another is that Master Craftsman counts as its own crafting feat for whatever items appropriate to your choice of craft/profession. The latter could lead to a master armorsmith making both magical armor and wondrous helms with a single feat, which seems appropriate.

Chengar Qordath wrote:

On top of the issues Kudaku and Aelryinth mentioned (which are already terrible) I'd mention that spellcraft is a far more useful skill than craft. Even if you won't be making a single magic item, spellcraft is something most casters would want to invest in.

Meanwhile, Craft has no purpose beyond making things.

That is a good point. Spellcraft is far more likely to see use at the table than craft: Armor.


Majuba wrote:
No, he is mistaken. Keen does not have any caster level prerequisite. Unlike, for instance, Spell Storing.

I was referring to the ranks vs skill check modifier, and quoting for reference.


DC for Keen would be 20. 5 base + 10 CL + 5 for missing spell. "Lowering the Caster Level" is a whole mess of nonsense, but regardless it's not a prerequisite.

cnetarian: Everything after the CL is the prereqs. Here's the counter example:

PRD wrote:
Spell Storing: Strong evocation (plus aura of stored spell); CL 12th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, creator must be a caster of at least 12th level; Price +1 bonus.


eakratz wrote:
Majuba wrote:
No, he is mistaken. Keen does not have any caster level prerequisite. Unlike, for instance, Spell Storing.
I was referring to the ranks vs skill check modifier, and quoting for reference.

Not sure what you're saying then. Keen does not require a specific caster level (though +1 requires 3rd), and the feat says use ranks in place of caster level, but also to use the *skill* (not ranks) to make the check. A fighter would not have to be 10th to craft this. 7th would be plenty.

7th also plenty for accelerated belt, due to +2 bonus from master craftsman.


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Majuba wrote:
"Lowering the Caster Level" is a whole mess of nonsense

*Facepalm*


Majuba wrote:
eakratz wrote:
Majuba wrote:
No, he is mistaken. Keen does not have any caster level prerequisite. Unlike, for instance, Spell Storing.
I was referring to the ranks vs skill check modifier, and quoting for reference.

Not sure what you're saying then. Keen does not require a specific caster level (though +1 requires 3rd), and the feat says use ranks in place of caster level, but also to use the *skill* (not ranks) to make the check. A fighter would not have to be 10th to craft this. 7th would be plenty.

7th also plenty for accelerated belt, due to +2 bonus from master craftsman.

Ranks are the skill points contributed to the skill, not the overall modifier. There is no way to have more ranks in a skill than a character has hit dice since the maximum ranks you can have in a skill is equal to your hit dice. The +2 bonus is merely that, a bonus. It has nothing to do with ranks, so it doesn't contribute to caster level.


A shame really, that fighters and everyone else is hosed into a singular choice.

That said, I can't seem to find where Profession (Blacksmith) is as Aelryinth describes.

I'm not saying he's wrong, just that I can't find it. My search-fu may be weak.

Best choice imo would be (Armor) for access to Celestial Plate, Shield, and thus flight for a full 8 hours per day since the armor has a CL of 8. This saves you money on not having to buy Mithral Full Plate and it gives you fight.

House rules can clean up the rest, but alas they do not matter in discussions such as these.

I suppose that answers my original question : "Why don't fighters take Master Craftsman?"

I have hopes that someone like James Jacobs finds this thread and gives us two cents about a house rule as a soft unofficial fix, but there are several other problems that the devs should pay attention to when discussing errata and such.

That satisfies my curiosity, sadly, but it does.

EDIT: Hope is not lost!!!

BUT, I have an actual rules question: Can I use retraining to select the same feat that I have, but if that feat requires a specific choice I would use retraining to change that choice?

My thinking is: I can pay both time and money to switch the feat to a different craft skill that I have ranks into already, and thus be able to use Craft Wondrous Item on other such items since the only difference would be the Master Craftsman feat.

This transposes to something like Weapon Focus- a feat that requires a specific choice. Would switching my feat choice be the same thing as training in a different feat?

Shadow Lodge

My current houserule is that any character with 5 or more ranks in at least one craft skill can take the Craft Arms & Armour and Craft Wondrous Items feats, and use their craft ranks as their caster level when crafting so long as they use a craft skill in which they have 5 or more ranks to create the item.

You still have to invest in more skills than the caster to get full use out of the feats, but at least you don't have to spend an extra feat and you can eventually make the full range of items.

Still needs playtesting. Notably this makes it a better deal for rogues than fighters, since the former have more skills. If this bothers you perhaps let fighters use a single craft skill to make anything under the Arms & Armour category. (Or just give fighters more skill points...)

master_marshmallow wrote:
That said, I can't seem to find where Profession (Blacksmith) is as Aelryinth describes.

The fact that both a Craft (Armour) and Craft (Weapons) skill exist implies that you cannot use Craft (Blacksmith) to create items in both those categories.

eakratz wrote:
Ranks are the skill points contributed to the skill, not the overall modifier. There is no way to have more ranks in a skill than a character has hit dice since the maximum ranks you can have in a skill is equal to your hit dice. The +2 bonus is merely that, a bonus. It has nothing to do with ranks, so it doesn't contribute to caster level.

Yes, so if you had 7 ranks in craft weapons you would take +5 to the DC to create a +3 weapon (which requires caster level 9).

However Keen does not have such a requirement - the caster level merely sets the DC, which you can use your total skill modifier to meet.


I'm playing a fighter in a friend's game now. Very likely I may take Master Crafter because I'm already crafting my own arrows. The problem here being I took craft alchemy and craft bows so my skill ranks are all used up already.

Other than that knowing who an enemy and when I'm going to have to face them makes being able to craft slaying arrows a very nice thing to look forward to.


Majuba wrote:

DC for Keen would be 20. 5 base + 10 CL + 5 for missing spell. "Lowering the Caster Level" is a whole mess of nonsense, but regardless it's not a prerequisite.

cnetarian: Everything after the CL is the prereqs. Here's the counter example:

PRD wrote:
Spell Storing: Strong evocation (plus aura of stored spell); CL 12th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, creator must be a caster of at least 12th level; Price +1 bonus.

that is correct, I botched the linking (too many nested HTML tags) and thought I canceled the post in frustration. I intended to point out the semi-colons and how they separate sections.

type of enchantment ;
caster level of spells cast by the item ;
requirements to place the enchantment on the item ;
price of the enchantment on the item

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