I want to make the most powerful optimized monk possible. Because I have a fellow player who believes monks are useless and the only good monk is a Sacred Fist Warpriest.
The race is going to be a Kasatha because why not make this hurt worse.
Assume perfect stats.
You generally get more help if you attempt a build yourself, rather than just asking for someone to do the work for you.
Sohei. Nice, simple pure damage.
The sohei has two main abilities that increase its damage compared to the normal monk: It gets weapon training like a fighter (+1-+3, and a limited selection, but still fairly good), and it can flurry in light armor.
The armor might seem like a defensive boost, but it is not past the first few levels (it lets you survive without being MAD or going dex/wis turtle, but at higher level the regular unarmored monks get a few more AC). No, the real advantages is that it opens up equipment options.
The normal unarmored monk has to grab bracers of armor to get an enhancement bonus to AC. But you can get armor, and you also qualify for gloves of dueling (you have weapon training called weapon training and stated to work as weapon training; it qualifies). That is a sweet +2 to attack and damage.
Furthermore, for an unarmed build, you can grab brawling armor now that you can use light armor. That is another +2 to attack and damage. So a sohei can see a total +7 bonus to attack and damage that normal monks can never see. Imagine that on a pummeling build!
Alternatively, you could go with weapons. You are still seeing another +5 with weapon training and gloves of dueling, and you can easily grab a ton of nice weapons that you can 2 hand for power attack bonuses. Maybe a nice reach weapon (if you grab lunge, you can full attack anything in a 45' wide circle; there are other tricky things like fortuitous weapons or pushing assault) or perhaps a nodachi (they count as polearms; enjoy flurrying with 1d10, 18-20/x2 weapon with 2 handed power attack). If you do choose to go with standard weapons, remember- mithral medium armor counts as light for most purposes. Grab a mithral breastplate and close a bit of that AC gap with the unarmored monks, while still murdering with your raw power.
Sohei, Zen Archer, Sensei, Martial Artist, Tetori... all of these make excellent martials with different areas of expertise (damage, range, control, versatility, single-target lockdown).
Monks can be very good specialized characters.
If you're just looking for a guy who punches people while unarmored and does damage, your friend's right, the Sacred Fist is better.
Different Monk archetypes do things a Sacred Fist can't though. You'll never make a Sacred Fist like the Sensei, for example.
I think there a plenty of monk archetypes that'll work - of course, as others said, depends on the role (tactically or otherwise) that you're trying to fill. Assuming we're just crunching munchkin (i.e, trying for a competitive damage output/survivability) then you can do it with several archetypes/race combos. I like humans, for the feat.
okay here's an example:
Unarmed dps: martial artist. dex/wis build. You'll get weapon focus/spec in unarmed strike, but lose stunning fist. Pick a style (snake style is great, if you can get a hold of a +sense motive item. Ridiculous AC, plus retaliatory strikes when you max the feat tree) or just use whatever until you can get pummeling strikes/improved criticals. = roll all your flurry attacks, if any are a crit, you'll usually confirm. all your hits become crits, and you combine them all into one big slap. Damage is pretty impressive - you'll blow through DR even if your ki strikes don't apply.
Don't forget to pick up weapon finesse when you can, and if your gm allows variant rules such as these... http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/feats#TOC-Deadly-Agility-Combat-
...then pick up deadly agility too. Ridonkeylous damage once you get pummeling blow. Of course, you won't be able to sum up your damage with the pummeling blow until something like 9th level, and imp crit until 10th. But even until then, your level 3 human martial artist (assuming dex 16) with just weapon finesse, weapon focus, and deadly agility (1 feat slot open, + monk level 2 bonus feat) will flurry at +6/+6 attack, d6+3 damage. That's as good as any standard dual wielder, in general. By the time you hit 6th, you'll notice the numbers really starting to kick up, especially if you throw in a style or an improved maneuver for some cc. Throw in some bracers of armor- with +1 allocated for the "Brawling" enchantment. (+2 attack/damage with unarmed attacks). Play around with the other couple feats you have. I like snake style, but there are plenty to choose from. Hell, get improved trip: first attack in flurry = trip. the rest: beatdowns... attack of opportunity as punching bag gets up.
lol renegade. They just hate you cause they aint you
Yeah, just had a weapon adept in the party for a game I'm GMing. Used a Kusarigama, had wolf style, and improved trip and combat reflexes. No joke, he controlled the field. Reach weapon, trip bonuses? Bandits couldn't stay on their feet long enough to die standing up.
What level am I starting at?
One of my players is playing a monk, 19th level, he just started and is wrecking face left and right all over my game.
What kind of Monk?
The archetypal unarmed fighting master? They suck.
Only Monk CLASS? Or Monk FLAVOR without the class? Can be done just fine.
Do you want to stay pure monk? If your ok with a dip I'd dip a crusader cleric with a base monk. Get a reach weapon to flurry with thx to crusaders flurry feat and go to town.
While this is a great option, it's worth noting that the Sohei can do it without needing a dip. There are actually a few interesting things you can do with a level of Cleric if a dip is allowed.
Overall I would agree with those that say Sohei is the obvious choice if you want to exploit two-handed power attack with a powerful weapon - Nodachi, unless you want a reach weapon. All the little perks like a point or two of weapon training and using ki strike through your weapon are very handy. The easy access to Mounted Skirmisher and the mount stuff makes for a mounted terror as well.
Going Dual Talent Human can let you pick up both strength and wisdom, which helps with the MADness. Eventually, as the Monk AC bonus increases and wisdom items become available, unarmored can become just as effective for AC, while it allows you to boost your CMD by a ton.
I do not deny this. Makes the sohei look all the better I admit. but I do submit that it gains one very big advantage that is worth it to SOME builds... Flurry of blows can be used to disarm, sunder, or trip with an unarmed strike OR a monk weapon. Ergo a cleric dip with crusaders flurry means you can cherry pick any weapon except for the most exotic of the exotic to attack or CMD with to maximum effect on a moments notice. a worthy consideration. If anyone misses having fast movement or scaling damage with your fist this also makes a decent method.Do you want to stay pure monk? If your ok with a dip I'd dip a crusader cleric with a base monk. Get a reach weapon to flurry with thx to crusaders flurry feat and go to town.While this is a great option, it's worth noting that the Sohei can do it without needing a dip.
Cleric + Fate's Favored + Pearls of Power if needed also means +2/+2 Divine Favor, which is damn nice to have on a Monk. Also, abusing the heck out of Domain(s) - Reform Inquisition makes wisdom amazingly social, for example. Perhaps the biggest potential prize is that the Gentle Rest power from the Repose domain is a beautiful candidate for Domain Strike on a Monk, and has pretty stunning synergy with picking up Medusa's Wrath as a bonus feat at 10. My favorite Monk build is a Nodachi Sohei that does this and also takes Crane Style. So much flying fist and blade... plus Crane is hilariously mean against a staggered foe.
Optimize it to do/be what?
Need more info, OP.
badbird I can see you are most devious and skilled with clerics :)
Cleric/Monk1 and Monk/Cleric1 are two of the coolest synergy classes around. You'd probably like my Hei-Feng Chaos-with-a-capital-C Cleric.
I want to make the most powerful optimized monk possible. Because I have a fellow player who believes monks are useless and the only good monk is a Sacred Fist Warpriest.
The race is going to be a Kasatha because why not make this hurt worse.
Assume perfect stats.
If someone builds it for you, and you don't use it like they would then it still may not turn out well.
Also just go with a zen archer monk. :)
the Classic figthing with his fist thing Sacred fist does better. Give this point to your friend and move on.
If you want to do race cheese i think you can do better than the Four armed guy. Oread or Oni spawn thiefling comes to mind.
But honestly a Sacred fist, pehaps with a 2 level Moms dip is gonna blow you out of the water.
A monk can be decent, but it requires some books outside of the CRB, and the ability to play it well. I would just let this one go. It is not worth the fight IMO.
the Classic figthing with his fist thing Sacred fist does better. Give this point to your friend and move on.
Well it seems like the OP was talking more about a question of the Monk being capable/relevant rather than who was better at unarmed. If level dipping and/or weapons are on the table, things can change quickly. But as a base platform for just punching, yeah the sacred fist is generally better off.
Pretty much I want to prove they are not worthless, though I have preordered the new unleashed book to see what the monk there will have in it.
The reason I chose Kasatha is because they are kind of my new favorite class and Unarmed they wreckface. James Jacobs has said that they get 4 attacks each round but at heavy penalty unless you go Multiweapon Fighting.
Sacred Fist is good no doubt, but it has spells and so is over powered simply through spells in an anti-magic field or no more spells left in the day I don't see it as a better unarmed fighter.
Pretty much I want to prove they are not worthless, though I have preordered the new unleashed book to see what the monk there will have in it.
The reason I chose Kasatha is because they are kind of my new favorite class and Unarmed they wreckface. James Jacobs has said that they get 4 attacks each round but at heavy penalty unless you go Multiweapon Fighting.
Sacred Fist is good no doubt, but it has spells and so is over powered simply through spells in an anti-magic field or no more spells left in the day I don't see it as a better unarmed fighter.
1. First you have to make your friend define what counts as "not worthless" because he might just keep making up excuses.
2. IF you go with the kasatha your friend might say the race is what is good, not the monk, so to remove any excuses you should probably stick to a core race.
3. Even if you can make a good monk that just means you have a good build. That does not make the monk a good class however your friend might just accept any one good build.
Indeed, like I said just a personal favorite and yes Kasatha is a broken race. 4 arms means 4 attacks and well at level 1 that is just OP as all get out.
I keep hearing stories of optimized monks just being really good especially if you had a system mastery to really embelish their good points.
And recently Unarmed fighting has been getting good support. MoMS monk is good for picking up Pummling Style/Charge which are really handy as well as some of the other styles are just very nice. Items have been getting published too to better increase the monk's capabilities.
Qinggong Monk replacing High Jump can pick up Barkskin which makes their AC just insane. Spider Step and Cloud Step are pretty nifty as well though not strictly too good given limited feats.
Sacred Fist is good no doubt, but it has spells and so is over powered simply through spells
Any class with a powerful and limited resource takes a fall if that resource runs out or goes offline. Sacred Fist is no different. Unfortunately the Sacred Fist stripped of magic isn't really that far off from the basic Monk anyhow. Either way, comparing a powerful, specialized archetype of a hybrid class that pretty much rips-off a weaker base class to that base class in it's least developed form is kind of silly.
If you want the Monk to really compete, drag out a powerful Monk archetype and/or abuse a single multiclass dip. If magic and unarmed is the issue of contention, the (overcomplicated) Monk of the Seven Winds gets it's own magic at higher levels that's beastly if you actually work everything right. Other potent options have been mentioned. But running a plain-jane unarmed Monk is just begging to be told that a Sacred Fist could do the exact same thing plus Divine Favor.
Built a monk and i Will be happy to give you some feed back it seems you and i dont really agree om what is good:)
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Some of the better Monk archetypes for a pure monk:
Tetori: The best grappler in the game. Some other classes may have a higher grapple bonus, but nothing can shut down magical escapes like a tetori.
Sensei: Wisdom Based support class. You can be a nightmare of control & debuffs while buffing allies.
Zen Archer: One of the best archers in the game.
Far Strike Monk: Zen archer for thrown weapons.
Sohei: Single class fighter/monk. Weapon Training is so powerful on a monk. If you get an animal companion or mount from feats, Monastic Mount is a huge buff for it. You can also take mounted skirmisher at first level.
Martial Artist: Exploit Weakness gives you amazing versatility, either for a +2 to hit and to bypass all DR and Hardness, or a massive AC boost. On top of that you have access to fighter only feats and immunity to a crapton of status conditions.
Hungry Ghost Monk: Combined with a high crit weapon or pummeling style, you regain Ki every round, or you have pseudo-regeneration from healing every round.
Flowing Monk: Incredible battlefield control and defense.
Kata Master Monk: Swashbuckler Deeds on a Monk chassis.
Drunken Master: Another method of unlimited ki, with some other unique stuff.
Monk of the Four Winds: Elemental Fist makes you a blaster, and Slow time is an amazing ability.
Harrow Warden: Trading Stunning Fist that rarely works because of Fort Saves for Idiot Strike that targets Will Saves makes it much more reliable. Pugwampis suck, and you can do the same thing they do. As you level up, you can change it to bestow curse.
Nimble Guardian (catfolk only): You get wild shape. Enough said.