Goblin Squad Member
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A companion post to our Verified Traders...
As a public service to those traveling in the southern lands, Keeper's Pass maintains a list of known bandits and ne'er-do-wells* in the region. If you are heading home from gathering, going up the Pass for trade, or just travelling through the area and happen to see these folks, you're best bet is to run away. On the other hand, for those valiant defenders of the common folk that are looking to do some protecting, you might instead run toward them...
As a note, the Keepers of the Circle acknowledge and concur with the 6 River Freedoms, and most particularly in this case that "You have what you hold." We live in a dangerous realm. Act accordingly. Travel in groups if you are concerned for personal safety. The Keepers are happy to assist any traveling to, from, or through our lands and Keeper's Pass offers guard services upon request.
Known Bandits and Ne'er-do-wells
*Do please read the IMPORTANT NOTE regarding Player vs. Character distinctions. I consider all of the folks friends, as Players. If you have a problem with an actual Player's actions or communication, that type of issue must be dealt with in a different manner.
Kudos on the excellent strategy of a would-be trading post announcing that you were surrounded with so many folks preying on travelers to your settlement on a slow weeknight. That's some good publicity and public relations, there.
I join you in urging more mobile nodes travelers to visit Keeper's Pass.
Can I suggest your new settlement slogan?
Keeper's Pass... hey, at least it's not Hammerfall... yet.
Keeper's Pass has become so convenient for me to patrol now that I do all my banking in Hammerfall.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well, now if we want to start talking smack I could bring up that when the Keepers took to the field last night, all the bandits pretty much fled*...or that even with all my advertising of Throrin Axehammer as a rich target for banditry (and even better, he doesn't have a single attack slotted) no one has ever taken him down in near 2 months of gaming with him wandering all over the map...but I'm not on for smack talk.
I'm a realist. Trying to tell folks, "Sure, everything's safe. No worries..." is just a silly strategy because it will never be true. The River Kingdoms are a dangerous place. Not telling folks that would be the disservice. This public service announcement is just informing the masses, both those trying to avoid PvP and those seeking it out. You see Savage Grace on your horizon? If you're looking for a fight, head that way. If not, you've got fair warning to clear out. And there's a reason, after all, the Keepers offer both to meet traders at other locations and to guard incoming travelers. Bandits that can actually take more than lone gatherers? Haven't seen that yet. Of course, that's also because my EBA friends and I need to be doing a better job of guarding folks. And folks need to be looking for guards...
*Admittedly, I unfortunately got on right as Phyllain and others went to bed for the night per my friend Elsworth Sugarfoot's report. But that doesn't make for nearly as good a story.
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Goblin Squad Member
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meh ... guarding is a fruitless exercise. Your guards will stand for hours while the bandits just log in an alt (potentially even a crafter in your own settlement) and go do soemting else then log back in to create some havoc and log out again when they get bored.
It is better to realize the DEVS actually mean for the bandits to create a degree of havoc (even to the extent of agreeing to a SAD mechanic which will eventually make them impossible to avoid) and work with that in mind.
Given that characters built for PvE combat usually have a totally different build to PvP characters (as many of the spells and attacks that work well in PvP are useless in and a waste of time to train for PvE) your best option is never carry much in the way of good loot and run like a little girl unless you outnumber the bandits 2 or 3 to one.
If you actually do outnumber them you then they will likely scarper and you have to catch them which probably means developing good bait tactics but that s for another thread :D
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Goblin Squad Member
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I do not mean guards standing around in some hex waiting. I mean active guards traveling with a merchant or gatherer up from Blackwood Glade or Hammerfall. Travelling alone, while laden with goods, is not a very good strategy, especially for those unprepared to withstand a sneak attack. If there is anything I appreciate about the current bandit activity, it is teaching this lesson to folks early on.
Now, with that said there are other guardian roles that could be filled. Companies could field gatherers and combatants to work together in an area, targeting both the local monsters and the resources. Then when finished they move as a group back to a settlement.
We have been told from the beginning, if you go out alone, you will die. A lot. How then do you answer this? Don't go out alone. This is the ultimate intention of my messages--to encourage people to understand the reality of the River Kingdoms and to act accordingly.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Please add Guurzak to the list.
And its not sufficient to go out in force. Members of BWG were out tonight in a group of 7 and it was insufficient. We were not prepared for PvP and got our proverbial asses handed to us.
The worst part, was that even if we had killed them (repeatedly), it would have done little good. They weren't carrying any items other than their gear, so they stood to lose almost nothing. They were killing for the giggles.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The worst part, was that even if we had killed them (repeatedly), it would have done little good. They weren't carrying any items other than their gear, so they stood to lose almost nothing. They were killing for the giggles.
Its important to realize that if PvPers get bored they just kill each other till new targets appear. Dieing to another player is no big issue for a serious PvP player if anything they are likely to get more annoyed being killed by an Ogre.
The DEVs seem to have made it pretty clear they want to encourage this sort of random encounters and the rep system is designed around neg rep characters being able to log out for a few days and then come back ready to train up and go fight again. Also the game has some awesome PvP spells and attacks that no sane PvE player would bother training as they simply do not work at all on NPCs - meaning PvE combat characters are at a serious disadvantage even if they have no craft/gather skills.
People just need to work with it, return to base regularly and unload, never carry multiple big ticket items at once, run away from PvP when its obvious the enemy is PvP trained, never stop to help a "friend who was caught" as you will just both die, and never never fight unless you seriously outnumber them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yes, those not seeking PvP will have to adapt strategies to avoid it. For transportation of cargo, have haulers that are built for speed and resistance. When hostilities break out, their job is to run. Guards should carry nothing other than their equipment. Or send decoys to draw them off while actual cargo goes another route. For crafters, don't sell your goods to the guards--give them what they need free of charge.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Personally I think it is kinda unfortunate the game has been developed in such a way that dedicated PvP characters are a distinctly different sort of build to an ogre hunter/fighter and the only effective answer to PvP is totally avoid it or dedicate a character completely to it, but as they say "no point arguing with the referee" you have to play the game the way it is.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I was with Stormweaver tonight and if this is what Pathfinder Online is, then I not only won't be paying for it, I won't be playing out my kick starter subscription.
I've been ambushed, killed, looted, and then killed again as soon as I respawned 5 times the last 2 times I've logged in.
I don't see the point of wasting my time or money on a game that I was assured wasn't going to be a PVP only game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I was with Stormweaver tonight and if this is what Pathfinder Online is, then I not only won't be paying for it, I won't be playing out my kick starter subscription.
I've been ambushed, killed, looted, and then killed again as soon as I respawned 5 times the last 2 times I've logged in.
I don't see the point of wasting my time or money on a game that I was assured wasn't going to be a PVP only game.
You also happen to be in the HIGHEST pvp area of the map. If you move up north (far north) I doubt you'd see much pvp.
I've seen PvP happen once. Once since Alpha 8. One time...and I died. It saddens me, but it's self-imposed. Oh, but when the ping goes from 650 to a more reasonable speed (still a couple of months away) I know where to travel to.
Mourn, I would really suggest travelling to a different area of the map and giving it another try.
Now, that kill-loop sounds like it could be a mob spawn issue. Those are horrible. Stealth and run, or just a lucky run, maybe asking someone to meet you, those seem to be the best solutions. I believe the mobs near resurrection shrines is something they are working on.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... then killed again as soon as I respawned 5 times...Mourn, if you can ever get proof of this, I expect some things will shake loose. I don't know what kind of proof he'll need, but Phyllain has tried to make it clear to Golgotha that they shouldn't be doing that.
I am not sure what Phyllain has to do with it or what his real (rather than forum) opinion is but tis pretty common behavior.
We had one new member who had first logged in at Kindleburn about 3 weeks ago but never played till last week who tried to move down to Keepers with her untrained character who claimed she was chased the whole way and killed about 4 or 5 times by the same group.
Husk camping long past the time it would have taken to loot the husk so as to rekill the character trying to get back to collect it is also occurring regularly.
Personally I have no opinions on whether that's good or bad but have been merely pointing out the devs have buit a game that endorses that sort of behavior and there is no point any non-pvP characters complaining about it, they just need to accept its going to happen a lot and deal with it.
People need to also be aware that there are a lot of EVE players coming across and in EVE it is very much the thing in some groups to attack PvE players in the hope they will either change to a PvP play style or quit the game. Either way, player taking up PvE or unsubbing the objective is achieved.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There were people who died multiple times, because if we kill you and are looting your corpse, and you run back to your corpse while we are looting it, we will kill you again so you don't prevent us from looting.
Mourn, the wording of your complaint sounds like you are implying we were spawn camping you, which is patently false. In fact, I can remember for you specifically, you were ambushed and looted (by me) in the non-free-pvp hex at the beginning of the battle. Then when we baited you and some others into coming into the free-pvp hex, you ran ahead of your allies by yourself and got killed again.
After THAT death, I specifically remember Phy telling us not to kill you when you respawned right near us, and we didn't. Not that he needed to expressly say it, because we all know that we don't do that crap. If you don't like dying several times, don't keep running at bandits in an open pvp window hex.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well, I talked to Phy awhile back and asked that we be left alone because we are small he seemed to agree. I guess that is over.
Also, you followed us all the way to Blackwood glade and only stopped because of the Thornguards. Then after a while, I guess long enough for your flags to reset you entered Blackwood Glade and taunted us via chat.
Then you camped right outside of our settlement waiting for us.
You sound like a bunch of punk kids justifying your bad behavior.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I can't speak for the rest of the team, but I actually went back into blackwood glade to get the stuff I had looted off you guys and stored in the bank because I was about to log. :)
I did give you a /wave but not sure what else you mean about taunting in chat.
We are an evil settlement. Of course we are going to do "bad" things. It's part of the game. If you present a juicy target you are going to be robbed. It's nothing personal. Were you the one who was supposed to receive that delivery of several spells and recipes? Is that why you are so upset? I've been looking for blindness/deafness for awhile now, so tell your boy I said thanks.
As to "waiting outside the settlement", last I heard/saw, the rest of the squad was going to go elsewhere to look for a tougher fight. True story.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That wasn't me who said that. I must have missed it while I was taking many many things out of the bank.
Probably a devout Norgorborite who said that one. I'm an Asmodeus guy myself.
But when you said "taunted" I was assuming something more along the lines of a personal attack. Calling an individual out for sucking/being a coward/ just general name calling or something like that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If I believe that I wasn't the one who said the murder comment I'm stupid/lying?
Or if I believe that my interpretation of taunting was more of a personal attack than a general statement about murder, I'm stupid or lying?
What about myself believing my own thoughts is making me stupid or a liar? I don't follow.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It was Phyllain who said it, the one you claimed told you to stop attacking us.
No, don't misquote me. I said Phyllain told us not to spawn camp you. He quite encourages us to kill people and take their stuff. So yeah, I totally believe he said the murder comment. He loves murder.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Sounds like Golgotha had a [s]good[/] evil and productive evening.
I'm sorry that you didn't enjoy the PvP, and knowing Golgotha, they would happily take tribute so that you can avoid it.
Another option would be to reach out to another group and ask for aid or an alliance and see if they could help protect you.
Final option I see is to learn to either avoid PvP (agile feet buff and followthrough foresight gives you a sizeable speed advantage), or to fight the enemy off yourself.
Best of luck to you!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Before you start pointing fingers about taunting in hex chat maybe I should remind you of what sparked that comment? I think it was "little sociopaths need to do things like this I guess."
Additionally one of the people who lives down there, Redmond flynn, has been particularly vial with his sexual and racist comments in whispers to myself and others. I was just going to keep it to myself but if that's the game we are going to play.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think part of the problem is that it takes a really long time to loot a body in the current system. Most of the time people just want their body back (for whatever reason, though I agree some of that is to get 'some' stuff back).
We have a 25% chance of losing equipment every time we die (from mobs or otherwise) a happy medium might be a straight percentage of auto loot to the bandit party that made the kill. Especially since threading is not in yet.
Dying is frustrating whither it is a mob OR bandit; in most cases even if the bandits are being 'respectful' as players and in the spirit of the game emotions are going to be high and literally everything said whither in gest, good humor, whatnot is going to be taken personally and a negative light.
I don't envy the devs for trying to strike a happy balance. I do think the word grief has many different definitions to a lot of people and its unfortunate this game was advertised as 'more than just a gank-fest' when the word gank has so many different meanings.
I know a lot of Keepers are getting upset feeling like they are being 'ganked' when the bandits are just being bandits and looting body's.
For what its worth I sympathize with both sides here since everyone has different features they consider fun. PvPers enjoy killing while PvEers just want to be left alone. I really just want to avoid losing players, especially ones I consider friends.
Mourn, respect to you for coming to the defense of your clanmates. I know you died a lot in that battle. One thing I noticed is many of the people who died ran right back at us after respawning (one of the problems with respawns so close to the death location). Maybe their intention was to run back to Blackwood or leave the battle, but you ended up running right back into us. I don't know if you noticed but the last time you passed we let you get away. But you were still running past us AGAIN. Work on being aware of the map and run in the opposite direction of where the fight was.
On that topic, most people run directly back to their husk and die again. WHY? I guess you don't have anything to lose, but Phy and I had one guy run back 3 times yesterday. Two powerful evil characters are standing right there....
I use exact the same setup for PvE as I do for PvP. No problems.
As people have said, emotions run high in PvP, that's what's so great about it. If you work at it, you will get better and be on the winning side of those emotions, don't expect to defeat the military might of Golgotha on your first try. Learn. Grow stronger.
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Goblin Squad Member
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WE (Goodfellow and I) had traveled down that way as well. Stopped off in Blackroot Glade (or whatever it is called) and saw no one. We pushed further on into Keepers Pass, and finally!!! People!!
Had some fun, got killed twice, stopped off to visit Hall for accolade and in tavern for a mug!
No respawn camping on the part of inhabitants (TSV or KotC), good sportsmanship, and not unexpected.
I'd like to see the option of guards being turned off in PC settlements. and honestly, If someone is willing to raid in the heart of a PC settlement, should there really be a Reputation hit for that? Granted it was only 800 but that was without a kill (and I was at around +6900).
I'd hope that GW decides to only have guards near bank and at respawn shrines.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Quick question to other Golgothans, are any of you using different builds for PvP than you do PvE?
Because I am basically using the exact same setup that I used when we were farming Mordant Spire. If this build can handle literally the most difficult mobs in the game, I don't see how anyone can say that PvE/PvP builds are horribly disparate.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Quick question to other Golgothans, are any of you using different builds for PvP than you do PvE?
Because I am basically using the exact same setup that I used when we were farming Mordant Spire. If this build can handle literally the most difficult mobs in the game, I don't see how anyone can say that PvE/PvP builds are horribly disparate.
I believe stuns are more effective and important in PVP, whereas DPS is more important in PVE because Mobs are tougher (passive defense: HP + Resistances) than PCs.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd hope that GW decides to only have guards near bank and at respawn shrines.
I strongly disagree.
What you seem to want is an ever-vigilant and combat-ready playerbase that are on a constant watch, and in such numbers, that they can effectively create some level of safety in a Settlement. I don't want that game, and I also think such a game will never reach serious membership numbers.
A wealthy and succesfull Settlement should be able to increase their NPC defenses in such a way that they can safeguard their members within their settlements for anything exept a full on Siege. A less succesfull settlement that spends less on guards could be less safe.
*Players* should be the safeguard for anything that happens outside such a settlement, exept for NPC roads where there could be some level of NPC-security(but not much).
If you completely leave Settlement safety to the players, and only protect a tiny area near the Bank with Thornguards, then the game will have lost all purpose to me. Which is work towards a thriving settlement that I can call home, and feel safe in.
It's also a great dichotomy:
Settlement: Home and safe.
Outside Settlement: Exiting and Dangerous.
If it's always Exiting and Dangerous, then you are making a different and much smaller game.
Addressing a couple of points...
1) My characters use the same exact build for PvP and PvE. There may be a day when specializing makes sense, but I'm having fun without specialization.
2) Coming back for your husk is almost a no-brainer. The worst that can happen is you lose durability. When engaged in SOLO PvP over coal gathering I'd say that half my victims manage to kill me coming back for their husk and get some of their loot back. (I'm really not that good, and now I don't have the advantage of surprise). HOWEVER, it's pretty stupid to come back when you're OUTNUMBERED. If you had delicious spells/maneuvers/recipes on your husk (like one victim last night), maybe the risk is worth it (but in hindsight it obviously wasn't worth it last night).
3) Golgothans are urged against SPAWN camping, not HUSK camping. We can be as leisurely as we want about your husks, and what you may not realize is we might not feel it is safe yet to loot it as fast as you might expect. There may be more targets of opportunity that our scouts are informing us of, or we might want to tour the area trying to see if anyone is stealthed up nearby. There is often a lot going on that you don't know about, so your expectations of how we're behaving in your absence can be immensely incorrect.
4) After we know your husk has been looted, there isn't a lot of reason to continually kill you. But if we give you the grace of spotting you, running past you and NOT attacking you and then find you attacking us from behind a minute later, Charlotte, you may not receive that kind of grace in the future.
5) One of my characters is a gatherer, and frankly because we don't get JACKPOT loot like mob hunters do (no recipes/spells/maneuvers), I imagine losing a husk is just the occasional cost of doing business (though a cost I have yet to pay in 2 months of play).
6) PvE Mob hunters already have good reasons to group and have all the tools they need to win/survive/escape banditry.
7) I discovered that banking at Keeper's Pass is even more convenient than banking at Hammerfall. Your tavern helped me get my power back. Plus I get to be helpful and answer people's questions in local chat. I imagine it is only a matter of time until I get group invites to go escalation hunting. Oh, and you even provided me with a trainer to help me carry more of your loot. This character hadn't bothered to train END and Strongback up yet, so thanks.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As my fellow Keeper Huran notes, this is a game of balance.
PvP folks have the balancing act of playing "bad guys" while also remaining good players. If the scales tip too far, I fear we'll get ever more restrictive game mechanics, rather than human judgement, trying to swing things back.
Non-PvP folks have the balancing act of doing their thing (PvE, Crafting, Trade, etc.) while understanding that the PvP aspect of this game is what adds an element of risk to make the reward worthwhile.
For all parties, you are responsible not just for your fun, but for others. That's probably the trickiest thing to do here. Gatherers, you are indeed mobile resource nodes to bandits. That's why they are bandits rather than gatherers. Bandits, you have the harder job because you have to think as Players, not just characters. When you are obviously superior to a target, any sort of banter is probably going to be negative. Offer them tips on how to do better, or just don't talk at all.
All of you, as people not characters, have to work together for a fun game. In that sense this is very much like the tabletop game many of us come from. I'll banter all day with bandits, even while you're smacking Erian around. And of course I'll heartily congratulate anyone that can catch Throrin, since I'm taunting you in my own way with him. Save the taunts for folks that are doing the same back. The flip-side to that is the targets need to refrain from provocation if you aren't willing to take it in return. And if any party devolves to personal attacks, you need to time yourself out (and other parties need to screen cap such). That gets to my statement above that bad player behavior has to be handled different from in-game action to deal with banditry.
I'll be writing up a post later today on "Why I Support PvP" in my Erian's Errantries post. I don't presume it will be any major contribution to the world-wide debate on PvP, but it will encapsulate my own thoughts of the topic specifically regarding PFO.
For this issue in particular, I very much hope that the Everbloom Alliance will do just as Alexander Damocles says above--step up to protect our allies at Blackwood Glade and Hammerfall.
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Goblin Squad Member
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On that topic, most people run directly back to their husk and die again. WHY?
This doesn't relate to this fight - but might shed some light on the thought process.
I had a discussion with one of our members who got killed by a bandit 1on1 and then got killed again 3-10 times in quick sucession. Trying to keep my own members happy I tried to get to the bottom of it.
I asked:
a) Why didn't you get help?
No answer apart of not expecting any (I should also say that person is not on out mumble server - apparently he can't run mumble on his PC)
b) Why didn't you just give up?
A combination of 'nearly' killed the agressor once as well as something I didn't expect. The gatherer had nothing to lose at this stage. So by going back and back and back again he hoped the bandit would just 'give up'
The interesting logic was - the bandit forced the first fight on the gatherer. This was non-consensual for the gatherer. Now the gatherer forces 10 more fights on the bandit - doing non-consesual PVP for the bandit which forces the bandit to either spend the time to kill the gatherer again and again - or to give up his loot.
Interestingly this attitude of 'being stubborn' results in neither side feeling happy about the encounter. Actually I heard about complaints from the bandit after that encounter as well who wanted to have algorithms changed - so in a way the gatherer managed partial success (in his view) as he soured the encounter and took the fun out of it for the bandit.
Unfortunately this might as well lead to an even higher stakes next encounter and into a spiral of negativity.
And anyone who tries to argue - gatherers should get protection and shouldn't gather solo should think again. By the same logic bandits shouldn't kill solo but should get a second helper to pick up the loot and it doesn't matter if you kill close to a shrine as one is killing and one is picking up.
So after going into the why - now the question is - how to solve this issue? I'm contemplating this but have no solution yet.
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In Eve, because we get combat logs that tell us who killed us, it is common to ask and answer questions like what could I do better.
The lack of logs and the crazy long names some of us have make that harder, and so we get forum discussions, instead.