Keeper's Pass - Bandits and Ne'er-do-Wells


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Gol Guurzak wrote:

This raises another point: practice makes perfect. Like an immune system, your PVP skills don't get stronger unless you expose yourself to antigens.

I know I definitely made some mistakes yesterday that I won't make again any time soon.

It's really the only sensible answer I can find to why we tend to stick around for the zerg to show up.

Personally, I'm a believer in GIGO. (Get In, Get Out).

I have the mentality of a raider and am usually not so starved for PvP that I'll let myself be farmed by the zerg when they finally form up an hour or more after the raiding started.

But even being zerged probably instills a lesson or two.

I just prefer lessons that might end in 7 new spells in my inventory.

Goblin Squad Member

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I'm betting this NAP misunderstanding is the source of much of the confusion and conflict...

As for the roleplaying/rollplaying, Cronge I will note that your comment applies equally to tabletop as well as this game. The PFRPG rules are a framework. They can be used for min/max, monty-haul, gank fests just as readily as can this computer game. The roleplaying doesn't come from the framework, it comes from the people. If anything, I see PFO as having an even greater opportunity for RP as the NPCs that would all be run (generally poorly, given the volume) by a single GM are instead run by players in PFO. That I think is a shift in mindset the TT folks need to have as well. If you are playing a gatherer, refiner, crafter, etc. you are an NPC from the TT perspective. Now every NPC in town (other than the Thornguard) can have personalities rather than just the three key ones the GM made notes on the night before.

As for capturing the feel of Golarion--this is pretty much exactly what was in my head when reading the River Kingdoms AP. Right down to the "this is a dangerous place to live" piece. Show me how, in that AP, the common folk were somehow safe from aggression when anywhere except their fortified settlements...

Goblin Squad Member

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On a side note about PvP. I just had a conversation with my wife on how I am now emotionally detached from my toons. I think the detachment came from playing Darksouls obsessively for over a year.

I would say anyone with anxieties of being ganked in PFO should play Darksouls for a few weeks (online) and try to stay human the entire time. PFO would then seem like a vacation :)


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KotC - Erian El'ranelen wrote:
If it were introduced in Open Enrollment, how could it be crowdforged? I'd rather work on rough edges now, with a limited group of people, rather than when the hoped for thousands pour in. We need to establish a culture now of how this will function for PFO, a culture that all major power blocs support, so that we can infuse this culture into players as they join. Any economy that forms now, in an environment with no PvP, would create an unfeasible model when PvP is later switched on because we've then trained all the players that gathering, caravans, etc. are all safe. That would in turn lead to mass-revolt from those that had grown to expect the safety.

Can you imagine 100,000 players discovering that Thornguards didn't fire on people with attacker flags?

At the risk of parroting you... PvP *HAS* to be crowdforged now while there are few of us.

The world is much safer now because Golgotha invited the GMs along on the Hammerfall raid to see how useless Thornguards were.

Given the current community, the results of crowdforging are likely to remain very friendly to self styled non-PvP-ers. Their lives are already safer and more serene than the day EE launched.

Goblin Squad Member

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Erian, just for clarification, here's how I learned of this non-agression pact. A Keepers Pass person -- I won't name him unless he says it's ok -- told me the alliance has a non-agression pact with Golgotha; that when they attack us all we can do is chase them out of the hex. When I asked why we don't simply box them in and kill them, he said we don't do that because we are the good guys. I thought that was pretty ridiculous, but if that's the way it was, then that's the way it was. So when Elsworth attacked me the first night, he was alone and I had every opportunity to kill him, but I just chased him out. BTW, I wasn't with the group from BwG last night that tried to PvP and lost; so I don't know anything about that.

But, at this point, it really doesn't matter to me anymore. I don't see the point of playing this game; I don't see anything whatsoever entertaining or "meaningful" about ganking others or being ganked. I'll let the sociopaths have their game. Mourn Blackhand has also indicated in the forum that he is disillusioned with the game and is leaving. Xilanthus is leaving BwG and moving further north to get away from the ganking. Nyrri might stick around; probably not.

You all are a fine bunch at Keepers Pass and I have also enjoyed our interactions.

Gol, I stand corrected. Sorry for being so touchy.

Paizo Glitterati Robot

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Removed a post and the replies to it. Regardless of disagreements or in-game issues, it is never OK to infer or advocate actual violence or make physical threats on our messageboards.

Goblin Squad Member

Anyone who is leaving BwG due to feeling unsafe, is more than welcome to apply to the safest settlement in the River Kingdoms: Golgotha.

Again, just a grunt here, so I have no say over who gets accepted, but it can't hurt to apply.

We protect our gatherers, and supply our combat-characters with the best possible equipment. We also have experience in strategy and tactics, because that's what we do. Constantly.

I even have recently come into a supply of dupe tier one spells that I would be happy to dole out to new recruits. ;)


Gol Tabomo wrote:

Anyone who is leaving BwG due to feeling unsafe, is more than welcome to apply to the safest settlement in the River Kingdoms: Golgotha.

Again, just a grunt here, so I have no say over who gets accepted, but it can't hurt to apply.

We protect our gatherers, and supply our combat-characters with the best possible equipment. We also have experience in strategy and tactics, because that's what we do. Constantly.

I even have recently come into a supply of dupe tier one spells that I would be happy to dole out to new recruits. ;)

Just to clarify... I'm pretty sure he's talking about spells that are duplicates of ones he already has.

Golgotha has a lot of sharing, and if we can't use something, we pass it to those who can.

Last night I had culture shock in Keeper's Pass when someone was offering to BUY the recipes they needed in chat. I'm not saying we won't ever buy or sell something in Golgotha. Just that the concept *so far* is pretty darn foreign to me.

Goblin Squad Member

By "dupe" i meant, spells that I already had copies of. Lol.

Grand Lodge Goblin Squad Member

Happy to give asylum to anyone from Blackwood Glade until you find a new home. Our settlement is pretty close and our areas are pretty much respected by either side.

Works also if you don't join us. But please send me a message so I know who you are. It would be a big shame if we lose even a single player because of this misunderstanding.

This game has great potential - but it is rough at times - both in regard of how to play as well as in regards where to be at which time.

Goblin Squad Member

Savage Grace wrote:


Just to clarify... I'm pretty sure he's talking about spells that are duplicates of ones he already has.

Golgotha has a lot of sharing, and if we can't use something, we pass it to those who can.

Last night I had culture shock in Keeper's Pass when someone was offering to BUY the recipes they needed in chat. I'm not saying we won't ever buy or sell something in Golgotha. Just that the concept *so far* is pretty darn foreign to me.

For the record, there is a fair amount of sharing in Keeper's Pass. Resources and items pass between our members quite often.

Goblin Squad Member

R_F wrote:

Erian, just for clarification, here's how I learned of this non-agression pact. A Keepers Pass person -- I won't name him unless he says it's ok -- told me the alliance has a non-agression pact with Golgotha; that when they attack us all we can do is chase them out of the hex. When I asked why we don't simply box them in and kill them, he said we don't do that because we are the good guys. I thought that was pretty ridiculous, but if that's the way it was, then that's the way it was. So when Elsworth attacked me the first night, he was alone and I had every opportunity to kill him, but I just chased him out. BTW, I wasn't with the group from BwG last night that tried to PvP and lost; so I don't know anything about that.

But, at this point, it really doesn't matter to me anymore. I don't see the point of playing this game; I don't see anything whatsoever entertaining or "meaningful" about ganking others or being ganked. I'll let the sociopaths have their game. Mourn Blackhand has also indicated in the forum that he is disillusioned with the game and is leaving. Xilanthus is leaving BwG and moving further north to get away from the ganking. Nyrri might stick around; probably not.

You all are a fine bunch at Keepers Pass and I have also enjoyed our interactions.

Gol, I stand corrected. Sorry for being so touchy.

I deeply apologize that message was conveyed to you (I am not sure who it was). That has never been the case. I am sure there was a mis-understanding somewhere there.

Our Non-aggression with Golgotha has and most likely will always be specific to tower hexes and inside settlements. If you are attacked inside a settlement that would be a violation of the agreement. If Golgotha takes a tower owned by parties in the agreement, that would also be a violation. Banditry was never covered and therefore bandits killing travelers and looting the bodies is not a violation of the agreement. With that in mind, we have every right to defend ourselves against such banditry. So you killing Elseworth would have been well within your rights to defend yourself.

I in turn also enjoyed your company and the company of others in BWG. I am sad to see you go.


KOTC WxCougar wrote:
Savage Grace wrote:


Just to clarify... I'm pretty sure he's talking about spells that are duplicates of ones he already has.

Golgotha has a lot of sharing, and if we can't use something, we pass it to those who can.

Last night I had culture shock in Keeper's Pass when someone was offering to BUY the recipes they needed in chat. I'm not saying we won't ever buy or sell something in Golgotha. Just that the concept *so far* is pretty darn foreign to me.

For the record, there is a fair amount of sharing in Keeper's Pass. Resources and items pass between our members quite often.

Yeah, that was the first visit to town for me, so I have no idea if that was typical. In fact, because it was in local chat and not your voice-comms, it could have just been a visitor.


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The biggest problem seems that there is nothing at all for the Bandit to lose that causes them equal frustration or setback. Either they fail to kill someone, in which case they don't care much cause at least they got to PvP a bit, or they kill someone and walk away with any valuable loot. Should someone (or someone's friends) catch up to them and manage to kill them and take their loot back the bandit still barely lost anything of value, especially if they aren't actually valuing their ill-gotten goods much.

So the current situation is such that there is no real deterrent to being a bandit yet. Therefore if you are seeking PvP ideally you should be a bandit. The scale is lopsided in favor of the PvP bandits until systems that making the life of a bandit challenging are implemented.

I'm afraid those adverse to PvP will simply need to wait until some additional systems come on line that may even things out a bit more.

Goblin Squad Member

G&S Thannon Forsworn wrote:

The biggest problem seems that there is nothing at all for the Bandit to lose that causes them equal frustration or setback. Either they fail to kill someone, in which case they don't care much cause at least they got to PvP a bit, or they kill someone and walk away with any valuable loot. Should someone (or someone's friends) catch up to them and manage to kill them and take their loot back the bandit still barely lost anything of value, especially if they aren't actually valuing their ill-gotten goods much.

So the current situation is such that there is no real deterrent to being a bandit yet. Therefore if you are seeking PvP ideally you should be a bandit. The scale is lopsided in favor of the PvP bandits until systems that making the life of a bandit challenging are implemented.

I'm afraid those adverse to PvP will simply need to wait until some additional systems come on line that may even things out a bit more.

Good points.


R_F wrote:

I'll let the sociopaths have their game.

This is a low budget sandbox game. Those "sociopaths" are the content. This will likely never be a big expensive theme park MMO. At best, we might be given better things to combat over (in the future) than what you carry in your inventory. But PvP is BY DESIGN a very big part of what this game was marketed as.

Why does being felled by your fellow players upset you more than being felled by an ogre?

Especially since some random passerby could just walk off with your husk loot from the ogre death?


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Savage Grace wrote:
R_F wrote:

I'll let the sociopaths have their game.

This is a low budget sandbox game. Those "sociopaths" are the content. This will likely never be a big expensive theme park MMO. At best, we might be given better things to combat over (in the future) than what you carry in your inventory. But PvP is BY DESIGN a very big part of what this game was marketed as.

Why does being felled by your fellow players upset you more than being felled by an ogre?

Especially since some random passerby could just walk off with your husk loot from the ogre death?

Because he's in control when it comes to the Ogre. If he fails against the Ogre, it's his own fault whether because he was not properly prepared or that he got too close and caused the engagement. When it comes to spontaneous PvP he loses control, the opposing entity is dictating the encounter and inflicting their will upon him. The negative feeling is even more pronounced when proper planning and outfitting is required to succeed in a PvP fight. It's not the least bit surprising the experience can be negative depending on people's expectations, and it's disingenuous to conflate losing a PvP fight to losing a PvE fight from their point of view.

What's interesting though is that from the Bandit's point of view the experience and outcomes are pretty much the same as engaging in PvE, the opponent is just not an AI. Recognizing that distinction should bring into focus why many find the current scope of PvP and bandit behavior 'problematic' or less than ideal.


G&S Thannon Forsworn wrote:

The biggest problem seems that there is nothing at all for the Bandit to lose that causes them equal frustration or setback. Either they fail to kill someone, in which case they don't care much cause at least they got to PvP a bit, or they kill someone and walk away with any valuable loot. Should someone (or someone's friends) catch up to them and manage to kill them and take their loot back the bandit still barely lost anything of value, especially if they aren't actually valuing their ill-gotten goods much.

So the current situation is such that there is no real deterrent to being a bandit yet. Therefore if you are seeking PvP ideally you should be a bandit. The scale is lopsided in favor of the PvP bandits until systems that making the life of a bandit challenging are implemented.

I'm afraid those adverse to PvP will simply need to wait until some additional systems come on line that may even things out a bit more.

The scales are only in favor of the PvP "bandits" because many (most?) players are largely defying the devs by not grouping and working as cohesive social units, while many of the players who got with the program realized that all those lone wolf players were actually sheep to be sheared.

The only additional system that needs to come online is for other players to get with the program and develop effective cohesive social organization too.

It really is that simple.

And I totally understand wanting to gather or hunt solo. I do it sometimes. I just accept trading added vulnerability for convenience when I do.

Grand Lodge Goblin Squad Member

Savage Grace wrote:


Why does being felled by your fellow players upset you more than being felled by an ogre?

Why does it upset bandits that there are spawn points too close. I haven't heard a single PvEer to say they don't want shrines close by.

Same reason - they are forced to do PvP they don't like. They are deprived their loot because the stupid PvEer just doesn't do what he is supposed to do.

We can argue if it is meaningful or not for a bandit to be able to loot - but the complaint boils down to the same issue - forced to nonconsensual PvP that a player doesn't want.

The real question is - how do we solve the problem that both sides understand each other.

Goblin Squad Member

I didn't want to say anything until I heard back from him, but Phy did just approve my proposal to open up a peaceful conversation with BwG.

Provided there is still anyone left there at this point, I am authorized to negotiate a true "non-aggression" agreement that INCLUDES provisions regarding banditry.

The miscommunication about the tower NA pact was unfortunate, but hopefully it is somewhat obvious that something where we don't engage in banditry (without any sort of recompense) is only beneficial to BwG, and doesn't really benefit Golgotha at all. We are simply out goods/expendables, and we wouldn't have been attacked by BwG members anyway, so there is no upside for us.

That said, I will be starting a new thread about this proposal, as well as sending a personal message to Erian, who i know is the "talky guy". Don't know if he speaks for BwG, or if he is an ally or what, but at the very least, he could help arrange and moderate a sit-down with the appropriate person.

I have been given the go-ahead that as soon as talks begin, to inform Golgotha to cease hunting down by BwG until the talks are concluded. So at the very least, even if we can't come to an agreement, just talking with me will give you a temporary cease-fire.

I look forward to hearing from the appropriate party/parties.

Grand Lodge Goblin Squad Member

I hope people stay - this is a GREAT community. No - I'm the last who says there are no issues - but this is early days and things need to settle down.
I just hope people who felt down will reconsider a day or two later.

Damn - I'm in the process to become Carebear of PFO if I don't stop posting here ...


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Savage Grace wrote:
G&S Thannon Forsworn wrote:

The biggest problem seems that there is nothing at all for the Bandit to lose that causes them equal frustration or setback. Either they fail to kill someone, in which case they don't care much cause at least they got to PvP a bit, or they kill someone and walk away with any valuable loot. Should someone (or someone's friends) catch up to them and manage to kill them and take their loot back the bandit still barely lost anything of value, especially if they aren't actually valuing their ill-gotten goods much.

So the current situation is such that there is no real deterrent to being a bandit yet. Therefore if you are seeking PvP ideally you should be a bandit. The scale is lopsided in favor of the PvP bandits until systems that making the life of a bandit challenging are implemented.

I'm afraid those adverse to PvP will simply need to wait until some additional systems come on line that may even things out a bit more.

The scales are only in favor of the PvP "bandits" because many (most?) players are largely defying the devs by not grouping and working as cohesive social units, while many of the players who got with the program realized that all those lone wolf players were actually sheep to be sheared.

The only additional system that needs to come online is for other players to get with the program and develop effective cohesive social organization too.

It really is that simple.

And I totally understand wanting to gather or hunt solo. I do it sometimes. I just accept trading added vulnerability for convenience when I do.

That's not a solution though. I bring 5 people, so you bring 10, I bring 10 you bring 20, we've just added a social arms race to the conversation, but the core doesn't change; the scales of potential gain and loss are not balanced. If they bring so many guards that you can't be a bandit then you are done and you're now the displeased party.

People will always do what is either convenient and/or efficient. Ultimately communication is a pain if you aren't in a voice chat with folks all the time so it's convenient to just head out on your own. Guarding gatherers on the off chance a bandit might show up is not fun, therefore it is neither convenient nor efficient. Gatherers can't really travel in groups because it's very inefficient, so they often go alone.

On the flip side the bandit suffers from none of these problems, it's just as efficient or convenient to hunt solo or in groups. Unless guards become so prevalent and lethal that it's not worth the hassle. At which point banditry is useless, which is just as bad if not worse.


Please don't lump Golgotha in with the same people who kill afk naked people around starter towns for 20cp. Bluddwolf, UP YOUR GAME. If we find you killing newbies in the 6 hexes around Marchmont we release the Orcs.

Goblin Squad Member

@ Gol Tabomo - Erian is the diplomat and Guardian of Gold for Keepers of the Circle. We are allied to Blackwood Glade. I believe you will want to talk to Mourn Blackhand as he is with Blackwood Glade (he can get you the correct BWG representative to speak to if I am incorrect on the contact for this case).

Goblin Squad Member

Gol Guurzak wrote:
I know I definitely made some mistakes yesterday that I won't make again any time soon.

I think I know one of 'em :)


Thod wrote:
Savage Grace wrote:


Why does being felled by your fellow players upset you more than being felled by an ogre?

Why does it upset bandits that there are spawn points too close. I haven't heard a single PvEer to say they don't want shrines close by.

I haven't heard that complaint. Both players should be cognizant of where shrines are (if that matters to them) and start engagements at (or drag the engagement to) the location they prefer.

Most of my combat (which has been with my gatherer) has been more about establishing territory, so looting time hasn't been an issue for me. I usually just need them to get the message that this isn't a safe place far more than I need their loot.

Goblin Squad Member

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Thannon the downside for Bandits is that banditry is a terrible economic model. In the three or so hours I was down south last night I could have gained far more materials from PvE.

Goblin Squad Member

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Savage Grace wrote:
The scales are only in favor of the PvP "bandits" because many (most?) players are largely defying the devs by not grouping and working as cohesive social units...

BS.

The "good guys" are always at an inherent disadvantage. The murderers get to go wherever they want and pick their fights. The good guys have to be in the right place at the right time and not be detected in order to combat the murderers.

I was under the impression that Reputation was supposed to have a meaningful impact in the game. That doesn't seem to be the case right now, and there's nothing persistent that's worth enough to a Settlement that it can be taken away from them to make them reconsider their actions.


Gol Phyllain wrote:
Thannon the downside for Bandits is that banditry is a terrible economic model. In the three or so hours I was down south last night I could have gained far more materials from PvE.

Seriously. Time spent seeking PvP should be considered a public service.

And by the time others get social cohesiveness we'll likely have outposts/holdings and the contents of some guy's inventory may be small potatoes.

Goblin Squad Member

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I'm fairly sure that I have actually lost money most times I go PvP'ing. And I don't just mean opportunity costs. If you consider every durability point on T2 equipment to be worth a particular amount, I cannot imagine I am coming out ahead.

Goblin Squad Member

Gol Elsworth Sugarfoot wrote:
Please don't lump Golgotha in with the same people who kill afk naked people around starter towns for 20cp. Bluddwolf, UP YOUR GAME. If we find you killing newbies in the 6 hexes around Marchmont we release the Orcs.

I saw no such lumping, and I certainly don't care what your opinion is on the merits of one form of banditry over another. Until there are more meaningful targets, any target will do in this scarcely populated world.

It is also not a matter of trying to avoid dangerous PvP either, I mean, just two of us went into the heart of a well populated PC settlement and attacked. Oh no! We gonna die! Lol, we are immortal, wearing gear we can make while we sleep. What danger?

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

KotC - Erian El'ranelen wrote:

I'm betting this NAP misunderstanding is the source of much of the confusion and conflict...

As for the roleplaying/rollplaying, Cronge I will note that your comment applies equally to tabletop as well as this game. The PFRPG rules are a framework. They can be used for min/max, monty-haul, gank fests just as readily as can this computer game. The roleplaying doesn't come from the framework, it comes from the people. If anything, I see PFO as having an even greater opportunity for RP as the NPCs that would all be run (generally poorly, given the volume) by a single GM are instead run by players in PFO. That I think is a shift in mindset the TT folks need to have as well. If you are playing a gatherer, refiner, crafter, etc. you are an NPC from the TT perspective. Now every NPC in town (other than the Thornguard) can have personalities rather than just the three key ones the GM made notes on the night before.

As for capturing the feel of Golarion--this is pretty much exactly what was in my head when reading the River Kingdoms AP. Right down to the "this is a dangerous place to live" piece. Show me how, in that AP, the common folk were somehow safe from aggression when anywhere except their fortified settlements...

Nope... well the NPCs need a friggin' education about true Pathfinder because it seems like most them have never been the GM before or now that they have the power are playing GM vs. Player and not just running the monsters.

Edit: you can be a commoner all you please... we are the heroes.


Gol Phyllain wrote:
Thannon the downside for Bandits is that banditry is a terrible economic model. In the three or so hours I was down south last night I could have gained far more materials from PvE.

But you still did it and other folks are doing it. If it has not been abandoned for nonviable economic reasons it's still a balance concern and it still impacts the parties involved in a particular encounter and a long term viable solution is still needed.

We should also ask then why are you committing acts of banditry if it's not worth it? Whats the motivation and how does it interact with the people you are encountering?

I would also say that if banditry is not worth it, then it is also broken (or perhaps I should say incomplete), it needs to be valuable in some way but the repercussions also needs to be balanced for the target's benefit (as a reaffirmation of their chosen play-style). Otherwise you just run into the examples I have previously stated.

Just to be clear I hope no one thinks from my part in this discussion that I am adverse to banditry and PvP being game mechanics, I am not. I just think they should mean something and be an actual important choice in play style. However, we are early and a lot of systems have not been released yet so some of this may smooth itself out in time.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

Oh you guys want "meaningful PvP"... how about Rep that recovers once per subscription month. That would change some tunes around here :)

Goblin Squad Member

KOTC WxCougar wrote:
@ Gol Tabomo - Erian is the diplomat and Guardian of Gold for Keepers of the Circle. We are allied to Blackwood Glade. I believe you will want to talk to Mourn Blackhand as he is with Blackwood Glade (he can get you the correct BWG representative to speak to if I am incorrect on the contact for this case).

This is correct with regard to affiliations. However, I am certainly willing to help in any way possible. My interest as a character is in diplomatic solutions to problems. My interest as a player is in keeping good folks around to play this game in the future. So, my "win" button is double-hit today if I can help here.


Nihimon wrote:
Savage Grace wrote:
The scales are only in favor of the PvP "bandits" because many (most?) players are largely defying the devs by not grouping and working as cohesive social units...

I was under the impression that Reputation was supposed to have a meaningful impact in the game.

Reputation does matter, and matters a lot more when the "good guys" aren't solo.

It takes me 42 hours to regain the rep on one successful non-consensual PvP combat encounter, and the prospect of attacker flagging myself for tab targeting by a group is highly likely to cause me to move on and look for someone who hasn't gotten with the program yet.

The current rep mechanic is VERY limiting, and once our PvP windows get cut in half (did the core 6 towers go away today?) the game may get kind of dull.


G&S Thannon Forsworn wrote:
Gol Phyllain wrote:
Thannon the downside for Bandits is that banditry is a terrible economic model. In the three or so hours I was down south last night I could have gained far more materials from PvE.

But you still did it and other folks are doing it. If it has not been abandoned for nonviable economic reasons it's still a balance concern and it still impacts the parties involved in a particular encounter and a long term viable solution is still needed.

We should also ask then why are you committing acts of banditry if it's not worth it? Whats the motivation and how does it interact with the people you are encountering?

I would also say that if banditry is not worth it, then it is also broken (or perhaps I should say incomplete), it needs to be valuable in some way but the repercussions also needs to be balanced for the target's benefit (as a reaffirmation of their chosen play-style). Otherwise you just run into the examples I have previously stated.

Just to be clear I hope no one thinks from my part in this discussion that I am adverse to banditry and PvP being game mechanics, I am not. I just think they should mean something and be an actual important choice in play style. However, we are early and a lot of systems have not been released yet so some of this may smooth itself out in time.

Like everything else in this game, PvP is evolving and has a long way to go.

But the devs have promised that PvP is going to be important, so many of us are engaging in it regularly in order to develop PvP tactics and strategies. Any payoff is in the future and may just be empty sandbox marketing promises.

Goblin Squad Member

Um..reputation has an effect. I haven't been able to step foot inside a town in going on a little over a week. I can't train, every time I feel up my bags from PVE/Gathering, I have to have someone else on to take my items from me to be banked..it sucks. And I did it due to another thread where the word "Lazy" was thrown around way to much. Most bandits don't actually kill you guys enough to get their rep as low as mine. A couple hover over the boarder, but I'm the only one (that I know of) that took the hit to get to -7500. I'm semi-glad I did, because I found a few bugs in the process.

EDIT: to add, alot of the pvp that is being done (not all) is done in a pvp hex. Don't want to pvp? Increase your chances and stay out of a pvp open hex.

Goblin Squad Member

It's worth noting that as a long term EVE player (which has a reputation of being hardcore) the situation in PFO is theoretically far more dangerous than playing in EVE.

- there is no equivalent at all of EVE hisec.

- there is also no equivalent of SOV nullsec which in EVE is even safer than hisec.

- most of PFO is sort of a cross between EVE losec/null/WH space

- in EVE you can dock in a station or AFK cloak and be perfectly safe but not in PFO

- in EVE there are means of reasonably safely traveling and hauling, people rarely lose jump freighters or blockade runners or for that matter interceptors and covops frigates. I have lived in losec in EVE for years and the only time I ever engage in PvP is when I choose to do so

Note this scenario is not necessarily a bad thing but people do need to be aware the devs intend this game to be far more bandit/ganking friendly than games like EVE.

Goblin Squad Member

KotC - Erian El'ranelen wrote:
KOTC WxCougar wrote:
@ Gol Tabomo - Erian is the diplomat and Guardian of Gold for Keepers of the Circle. We are allied to Blackwood Glade. I believe you will want to talk to Mourn Blackhand as he is with Blackwood Glade (he can get you the correct BWG representative to speak to if I am incorrect on the contact for this case).
This is correct with regard to affiliations. However, I am certainly willing to help in any way possible. My interest as a character is in diplomatic solutions to problems. My interest as a player is in keeping good folks around to play this game in the future. So, my "win" button is double-hit today if I can help here.

Per my leader's request, I have sent a private message to Mourn, and I'm awaiting his response. If we need a 3rd party mediator though, I will definitely contact you.


Cronge wrote:
Oh you guys want "meaningful PvP"... how about Rep that recovers once per subscription month. That would change some tunes around here :)

And where will you find content? Don't expect a WoW style theme park on a PFO sandbox budget.

Players *ARE* the content in a sandbox.


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Savage Grace wrote:
G&S Thannon Forsworn wrote:
Gol Phyllain wrote:
Thannon the downside for Bandits is that banditry is a terrible economic model. In the three or so hours I was down south last night I could have gained far more materials from PvE.

But you still did it and other folks are doing it. If it has not been abandoned for nonviable economic reasons it's still a balance concern and it still impacts the parties involved in a particular encounter and a long term viable solution is still needed.

We should also ask then why are you committing acts of banditry if it's not worth it? Whats the motivation and how does it interact with the people you are encountering?

I would also say that if banditry is not worth it, then it is also broken (or perhaps I should say incomplete), it needs to be valuable in some way but the repercussions also needs to be balanced for the target's benefit (as a reaffirmation of their chosen play-style). Otherwise you just run into the examples I have previously stated.

Just to be clear I hope no one thinks from my part in this discussion that I am adverse to banditry and PvP being game mechanics, I am not. I just think they should mean something and be an actual important choice in play style. However, we are early and a lot of systems have not been released yet so some of this may smooth itself out in time.

Like everything else in this game, PvP is evolving and has a long way to go.

But the devs have promised that PvP is going to be important, so many of us are engaging in it regularly in order to develop PvP tactics and strategies. Any payoff is in the future and may just be empty sandbox marketing promises.

I agree and am personally indifferent to the current state, I will work in it and around any aspect of it as needed.

However, I am not going to say that the current state is good enough or ignore that there might be significantly negative ramifications for over indulging in these aspects at this time. Especially when as you have essentially stated there is no real benefit to it currently, which would just validate the naysayers opinions and reinforce negative views of your actions.

I guess I'm saying don't be surprised that people are upset about it, just as you are upset about the lack of PvP. The viewpoints need to be two parts of a whole, not warring philosophies that separate the player-base.

Goblin Squad Member

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Gol Tigari wrote:
Um..reputation has an effect. I haven't been able to step foot inside a town in going on a little over a week. I can't train, every time I feel up my bags from PVE/Gathering, I have to have someone else on to take my items from me to be banked..it sucks.

And yet you still engage in indiscriminate murder regularly. The impact is not meaningful.

Paizo Employee CEO

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Savage Grace wrote:
When Lisa Stevens told us 6 weeks into the game that her PvE character had never been attacked, I think that says that there is plenty of economy building going on

Well, that has now changed. Decius Brutus chased me for around 8 hexes and needed the help of an agro'ed ogre to take me down, but down I went! First death to a player.

I have been chased twice more by Golgathan bandits and each time I managed to escape by casting some spells and using my Stealth of 90 to hide once I had gotten further away.

I expect I will fall prey a few more times in the future and hope that I can learn enough to give a better fight in the future when encountering bandits.

I still say that when my heart is pounding as I realize that bandits are on my trail is one of the most exciting moments in PFO for me. If it happened every day, I would grow weary, but because it only happens rarely, I find it the right spice for my game.

-Lisa

Goblin Squad Member

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It is still early in the game to be judging as to whether it will spin into a PvP gankfest. I will say that leaving too soon will help it become such as that is what the remaining crowd will want.

Do not forget to coordinate with allies and make grievances known among them. The systems are still being brought online to give consequence to overzealous PvP folk. Until then, we must rely more upon each other. Breaking down and quitting now will only cause the game to become that which we do not want.


G&S Thannon Forsworn wrote:
Savage Grace wrote:
G&S Thannon Forsworn wrote:
Gol Phyllain wrote:
Thannon the downside for Bandits is that banditry is a terrible economic model. In the three or so hours I was down south last night I could have gained far more materials from PvE.

But you still did it and other folks are doing it. If it has not been abandoned for nonviable economic reasons it's still a balance concern and it still impacts the parties involved in a particular encounter and a long term viable solution is still needed.

We should also ask then why are you committing acts of banditry if it's not worth it? Whats the motivation and how does it interact with the people you are encountering?

I would also say that if banditry is not worth it, then it is also broken (or perhaps I should say incomplete), it needs to be valuable in some way but the repercussions also needs to be balanced for the target's benefit (as a reaffirmation of their chosen play-style). Otherwise you just run into the examples I have previously stated.

Just to be clear I hope no one thinks from my part in this discussion that I am adverse to banditry and PvP being game mechanics, I am not. I just think they should mean something and be an actual important choice in play style. However, we are early and a lot of systems have not been released yet so some of this may smooth itself out in time.

Like everything else in this game, PvP is evolving and has a long way to go.

But the devs have promised that PvP is going to be important, so many of us are engaging in it regularly in order to develop PvP tactics and strategies. Any payoff is in the future and may just be empty sandbox marketing promises.

I agree and am personally indifferent to the current state, I will work in it and around any aspect of it as needed.

However, I am not going to say that the current state is good enough or ignore that there might be significantly negative ramifications for over indulging in these aspects at this time....

Just like the Hammerfall raid, this week's actions will provide REAL experiences to allow INFORMED crowdforging. Given the state of the community and past PvP crowdforging, I have no doubt it will lead to an environment that is even more safe and serene for non-PvP folk than today's environment.

Considering I have characters that do PvP, AND gathering, crafting, and PvE mob hunting, I really can't lose no matter what happens. I want a game that seems fair, sensible and reasonable, within the framework GW outlined for us.

The beauty of PvP is that anything the devs give me, they've given you. So of course I want it to end up all reasonable and meaningful in the end.

Goblin Squad Member

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Outposts and PoIs will improve the state of PVP immensely.

Raiding an outpost will be more consistently enjoyable and rewarding for the attacker and feel less like a personal assault to the victim than pouncing on gatherers.

Goblin Squad Member

Gol Tabomo wrote:
KotC - Erian El'ranelen wrote:
KOTC WxCougar wrote:
@ Gol Tabomo - Erian is the diplomat and Guardian of Gold for Keepers of the Circle. We are allied to Blackwood Glade. I believe you will want to talk to Mourn Blackhand as he is with Blackwood Glade (he can get you the correct BWG representative to speak to if I am incorrect on the contact for this case).
This is correct with regard to affiliations. However, I am certainly willing to help in any way possible. My interest as a character is in diplomatic solutions to problems. My interest as a player is in keeping good folks around to play this game in the future. So, my "win" button is double-hit today if I can help here.
Per my leader's request, I have sent a private message to Mourn, and I'm awaiting his response. If we need a 3rd party mediator though, I will definitely contact you.

Very good. I stand at the community's service whenever I am needed.

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