my players kingdom makes 87BP profit per month
I think in some respects the rules are broken.
On top only one player was interested in running the math, so he's taking 10 on the Kingdom Rounds.
I have no clue what is a supposed "realistic" income for the kingdom at this stage and how strong the Pitax armies in the next book are.
What are other peoples experiances?
How much of a fight do the armies in the book put up?
I want to give them at least some resistance and make mass combat exiting.
Are you using the AP rules for Armies & Mass Combat or the Ultimate Campaign version?
Are you finishing book 2, Rivers Run Red or book 4, Blood for Blood?
Since I believe most of the mass combat is in book 5, War of the River Kings.
There is a rough Kingdom size range for starting each book after the 2nd, it should be listed in each book at the begining. That might be a better indicator than your BP budget.
Are you using the AP rules for Armies & Mass Combat or the Ultimate Campaign version?
we aren't there yet, but I guess Ultimate Campaign as that is available for everyone without multiplying the AP on dead trees.
Are you finishing book 2, Rivers Run Red or book 4, Blood for Blood?
Since I believe most of the mass combat is in book 5, War of the River Kings.
There is a rough Kingdom size range for starting each book after the 2nd, it should be listed in each book at the begining. That might be a better indicator than your BP budget.
well, BP is what pays for armies not kingdom size.
we are just about done with Blood for Blood.
Well...
The kingdom should be size 100 at a minimum by the start of Book 5. Assuming that's half farms and half mines/quarries/sawmills, that's 50 BP per month before accounting for Economy, which should be around 120ish to cover the high Control DC, producing another 40+ BP per month. That's a total of 90+ BP per month. And it's quite possible to have a much larger kingdom than that.
well, BP is what pays for armies not kingdom size.
Kingdom size provides a much better idea of the State-of-your-Kingdom than your BP surplus, without knowing which Economic system you are using.
Using the Economy in the AP is driven by the sale of magic items.
Using the Economy in Ultimate Campaign is driven by your Tax Rate.
Using the Economy in Ultimate Rulership is as UC but tweeked a little.
Using the Economy in Book of the River Nations is also magic item sales (I believe) but tweeked a little.
Our game is in the middle of BfB, we have 1 Army, and it costs us 20BP a month right now simply to escort a caravan from Olegton to "Ft. Drelev" once a month.
Using rules from Ultimate Campaign, Ultimate Rulership, Ultimate Battle & Book of the River Nations. It is a plain 100 man unit.
Yeah, it's easy to forget that consumption costs for armies are weekly, not monthly, so you pay the army's consumption four times each month, which adds up to quite a bit VERY fast.
Using the Economy in the AP is driven by the sale of magic items.
Using the Economy in Ultimate Campaign is driven by your Tax Rate.
Using the Economy in Ultimate Rulership is as UC but tweeked a little.
Using the Economy in Book of the River Nations is also magic item sales
Yeah, it's easy to forget that consumption costs for armies are weekly, not monthly, so you pay the army's consumption four times each month, which adds up to quite a bit VERY fast.
those are pretty much the reasons why I think BP income is the better indicator than size, it doesn't matter which economic system we use and where those BP come from.
The kingdom should be size 100 at a minimum by the start of Book 5. Assuming that's half farms and half mines/quarries/sawmills, that's 50 BP per month before accounting for Economy, which should be around 120ish to cover the high Control DC, producing another 40+ BP per month. That's a total of 90+ BP per month. And it's quite possible to have a much larger kingdom than that.
ok, so looks like they are not grossly overpowered then
thank you for the inputs
meh, since the AP is designed for income through sale of magic items
taking Kingdom size as the referrence point is actually not helping.
Ultimate Campaign's rules are more balanced, and IMHO more realistic.
Also if you want, you can consider buying both Ultimate Rulership and Ultimate Battle, by Jason Nelson from Legendary Game.
Basically the autor put in those 3rd party books all of his ideas about "Kingdom & Wars" who were cut of during the final editing of the official Ultimate Campaign book.
My understanding is that when KM first came out, there was a lot of complaints about the Economy being driven by the sale of magic items, with all the other Economic modifiers becoming trivial.
So the Economy was changed to make the sale of magic items trivial and the Economic modifiers important.
I'd have thought that most GMs would have abandoned the "Magic Item Economy" as too unrealistic, flawed and prone to being excessively exploited.
It is suggested throughout the AP the the PC's should be about X-level, and their Kingdom should be about roughly Y-size.
But if your still using the "Magic Item Economy" that may be why the rules seem broken to you. I know our game made a lot more sense once we moved to UCam & Ultimate Rulership with some Book of the River Nations and some houserules also.
all true/plausible
but wow many armies where the players expected to be able to afford at the beginning of mass combat? The AP doesnt mention this afik from my first read a while ago.
I somehow expext that the designers had a run of the campaign to adjust the pitax armies accordingly.
But when switching to Ultimate Campign rules the kingdom migh be soo much better or worse off than with the old rules.
The AP suggests a single army, or 1 army per PC (page 19 of WotRK, column 2, under Building An Army).
Armies are incredibly expensive, particularly if you equip them well. Those surplus BP you mentioned would vanish pretty fast.
Large army of fighter 3 humans with improved Armor and improved weapons: 20 BP per week.
My understanding is that when KM first came out, there was a lot of complaints about the Economy being driven by the sale of magic items, with all the other Economic modifiers becoming trivial.
So the Economy was changed to make the sale of magic items trivial and the Economic modifiers important.
Just to nitpick, in UC there is no sale of magic items at all. Magic items generated by settlement buildings can't be turned into BP by players.
See page 213 in UC, Magic Items in Settlements, Emptying Item Slots.
For the "trivial" effect that the sale of magic items has on your Kingdom's Economy.