I would love to see a magic class that moves completely away from the idea of pre-defined spells. Something more akin to the oWoD Mage system, where you know basic principles and put them together on the fly to cast magic effects.
I would love to see a magic class that moves completely away from the idea of pre-defined spells. Something more akin to the oWoD Mage system, where you know basic principles and put them together on the fly to cast magic effects.
Like word casting?
By the way, also see this thread (which underwent recent Necromancy).
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And I wouldn't mind seeing Word Casting better fleshed out.
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Did you really just claim that a rogue would do better in combat than a tier 1 full caster? Because it really looks like you just did.At mid levels, using chill touch via major magic for touch sneak attacks, with a valet familiar outflank buddy sharing your sneak attacks, yes.Bwuahahahahaha!
I can't even take this seriously.
*shrug* Then don't. Carnivalist rogue with a valet familiar shares teamwork feats and sneak attack dice with the familiar. With outflank plus paired opportunists they both have a +4 to attack and will gain attacks of opportunity on a crit.
At that point you are basically a touch attack hunter with sneak attack.
It's an extremely powerful build despite being on a rogue chassis. It's not as good as a hunter or sacred huntmaster, but it's much stronger than the sum of its parts.
Where is the Carnivalist rogue from???
Also, what is a 'valet familiar'?
*shrug* Then don't. Carnivalist rogue with a valet familiar shares teamwork feats and sneak attack dice with the familiar. With outflank plus paired opportunists they both have a +4 to attack and will gain attacks of opportunity on a crit.
At that point you are basically a touch attack hunter with sneak attack.
It's an extremely powerful build despite being on a rogue chassis. It's not as good as a hunter or sacred huntmaster, but it's much stronger than the sum of its parts.
How is this build "extremely" powerful?
You are still a d8 class with bad saves, still rely on flank to get anything done, lose out on your level 2,4 and 6 rogue talents(these could be feats), heavily slow down your sneak progression, to a point where it progresses even slower as the sneak of a slayer and you furthermore rely on a familier, which will share your problem of low hp.
On top of that, you can only take outflank as your level 7 feat, so the build even starts late.
This build does decent in flanking position, but is horrible if it does not get it. The familiar of a d8 class in "full combat" mode will just get curbstomped all the time.
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Save or sucks with the low DCs you have for devoting build points to STR and less access to higher level spells because you are a full spell level behind? Good luck.Did you really just claim that a rogue would do better in combat than a tier 1 full caster? Because it really looks like you just did.At mid levels, using chill touch via major magic for touch sneak attacks, with a valet familiar outflank buddy sharing your sneak attacks, yes.
And if you are relying on full casting, then all of the resources you spend on EK are wasted.
As opposed to the Eldritch Knight blinding an entire encounter with pyrotechnics or glitterdust before beating the crap out of everything as an enlarged unhittible monstrocity.
Yeah... Rogue has nothing on the EK.
Amazing. Wizards go from dominating the game from level 5 onward to being worse in combat than a ROGUE the moment they go 1 spell level behind and choose to support a secondary stat that has hundreds of ways to buff it through the roof. Who knew?!
Slower access to spells hasn't hurt the Sorcerer and it certainly doesn't hurt the EK. By mid levels the EK has more than enough game breaking magic at his disposal that he'll tear apart any combat he wants to. He is a full caster first and foremost able to leverage his powers as a Wizard(the strongest class in the game) to augment his melee prowess.
The difference is ability scores, spell levels and feats. A single class sorcerer/wizard can easily have a casting stat of 20 at first level. The EK will be pushing for an 18 but will likely have a 16 or 17 because they are devoting build points to str. They are then devoting further class resources that could be going to dc enhancing feats like spell focus to combat, further widening the DC gap. Finally the sorcerer is only one level behind on spell access and has a full caster level. The EK is two levels behind, further lowering the dcs of the spells they cast. An EK casting the highest spell level they have access to will have a dc 5 lower than a single class character. That is enough to make casting a spell that relies on a save a wasted action.
Did anyone see that "Mortal Instruments: City of Bones" movie? It would be cool to have two classes based on that movie. One would be the standard Runic/Rune Warriors that are full up martial class(fighter HD/BA) that get a number runes based on there level that grant ether constant effects(energy resistance, fast healing 1, uncanny dodge, etc.) or spell like effects(bull's strength, shield, heal, etc.). They might also get some bonus feats as well. The other one would be a Rune Caster(Cleric HD/BA) would get more runes and more spell/ability options then the warrior version plus more blasting options.
Did you really just claim that a rogue would do better in combat than a tier 1 full caster? Because it really looks like you just did.At mid levels, using chill touch via major magic for touch sneak attacks, with a valet familiar outflank buddy sharing your sneak attacks, yes.Bwuahahahahaha!
I can't even take this seriously.
*shrug* Then don't. Carnivalist rogue with a valet familiar shares teamwork feats and sneak attack dice with the familiar. With outflank plus paired opportunists they both have a +4 to attack and will gain attacks of opportunity on a crit.
At that point you are basically a touch attack hunter with sneak attack.
It's an extremely powerful build despite being on a rogue chassis. It's not as good as a hunter or sacred huntmaster, but it's much stronger than the sum of its parts.
1)You depend on flanking
2)You depend on melee3)You depend on an SR negates effect
This does not even begin to compare to an EK who will wreak magical carnage before going in for the kill.
The difference is ability scores, spell levels and feats. A single class sorcerer/wizard can easily have a casting stat of 20 at first level. The EK will be pushing for an 18 but will likely have a 16 or 17 because they are devoting build points to str. They are then devoting further class resources that could be going to dc enhancing feats like spell focus to combat, further widening the DC gap. Finally the sorcerer is only one level behind on spell access and has a full caster level. The EK is two levels behind, further lowering the dcs of the spells they cast. An EK casting the highest spell level they have access to will have a dc 5 lower than a single class character. That is enough to make casting a spell that relies on a save a wasted action.
Unless you are going the spell perfection route, wizards won't be burning feats on spell focus.
So wizards start 20 and end at 31 before tomes
EK's start at 17 and end at 28 before tomes
That is a +1-2 difference over a career
Being behind a spell level is another +1
So 2-3 behind on the DC. Yeah avoid the single target save or dies, but that is far from useless.
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Slayer sort of seems to fill the Assassin niche
I would like to see a class that uses music as both offense and defense. I know what your thinking and your going to say we have a bard, But I am talking about completely focused on the supernatural/spell like music effects, no spell casting or skill monkey abilities but still has good skill points. I would say it would be a martial class with fighter HD/BA or at least cleric HD/BA with better combat abilities. The main thing is it would get a bard's bardic music but has a long list of abilities it can learn instead a set list of abilities. It could get abilities like granting allies fast healing, energy resistance, weapon special properties(flaming, ghost touch, etc.), AC/save bonuses, etc. It effect the enemies with confusion, fear, sleep, charm, fatigue, etc. It could use sounds as a weapon, enhance his own weapon strikes, break silence spells, break enchantments, etc. It could enchant music instruments as if it had the craft wondrous item feat. Also using musical instruments as improvised weapons would be nice or even as completely function magical weapons would be nice.
I would like to see a bard archetype that gets rid of bardic music for powers related to art. Such paintings or sculptures that come to life as summing or animate object effects, create illusionary and real objects, pottery that explodes as thrown bombs, summing walls of artworks or discarded/failed pieces, moving through paintings as dimension door or creating pocket dimensions/small demi planes. There is so much potential for this one.
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If someone has already mentioned this I apologize, though for those wanting a magical rogue there is the Advanced Archetypes II rogue archetype Nightmage... which apart from knowing it drops rogue talents for 4 levels of spellcasting, it may or may not be good. I don't own the book and can't get it yet. ^^;
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What I would perhaps offer for a d6 cleric archtype is one that gives of combat ability for greater domain access, perhaps not only additional domains perhaps abilities related to deities.
One thing that always frustrated me was how all clerics are all the same, where a cleric of a deity of love has most everything about them the same as a cleric of a deity of war.
I admit, I also miss how AD&D handled the cleric through that of Spheres and Specialty Priests. That is how the Cleric should be, with varied spellcasting and class abilities.
Perhaps allowing for an archetype that brings a cleric more in line to a wizard, sorcerer, oracle through a class ability similar to that of School Specialty, Bloodline, or Mystery.
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Also I want to see a bard archetype that gets rid of bardic performance and all related abilities to gain investigator Inspiration and perhaps other abilities.
The difference is ability scores, spell levels and feats. A single class sorcerer/wizard can easily have a casting stat of 20 at first level. The EK will be pushing for an 18 but will likely have a 16 or 17 because they are devoting build points to str. They are then devoting further class resources that could be going to dc enhancing feats like spell focus to combat, further widening the DC gap. Finally the sorcerer is only one level behind on spell access and has a full caster level. The EK is two levels behind, further lowering the dcs of the spells they cast. An EK casting the highest spell level they have access to will have a dc 5 lower than a single class character. That is enough to make casting a spell that relies on a save a wasted action.Unless you are going the spell perfection route, wizards won't be burning feats on spell focus.
So wizards start 20 and end at 31 before tomes
EK's start at 17 and end at 28 before tomesThat is a +1-2 difference over a career
Being behind a spell level is another +1So 2-3 behind on the DC. Yeah avoid the single target save or dies, but that is far from useless.
Well, the problem is that you're looking at maximum potential at level 20. Personally, out of the dozens of Pathfinder/D&D games I've been in, I've only ever had one game that actually reached level 20. In my experience most of the hybrid PrCs tend to be passably strong once you're pretty far into the PrC, but take a long to really "come online."
WBL and feats in particular are really hard on the EK, since there's very little overlap between what casters and martial want. Does your EK save money to spend on weapons, armor, and strength-boosting items, or does he use it on rods, scrolls, and intelligence-boosting items? You'll still have (roughly) the same number of feats available, but now you have to cover your combat feats and caster feats. To really make the EK worthwhile, you need to cover both roles. When you're not at max level and WBL it's a lot harder to stretch that far.
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Rhedyn plays mostly in the 9-20 level range.
This discussion went on for quite some time in this thread, I doubt it will be resolved here, and it's a bit of a derail.
I would like to see a class that uses music as both offense and defense. I know what your thinking and your going to say we have a bard, But I am talking about completely focused on the supernatural/spell like music effects, no spell casting or skill monkey abilities but still has good skill points. I would say it would be a martial class with fighter HD/BA or at least cleric HD/BA with better combat abilities. The main thing is it would get a bard's bardic music but has a long list of abilities it can learn instead a set list of abilities. {. . .}
This isn't yet what you want, but Exemplar Brawler is a step in this direction. Would need some more steps in this direction. Now if only they had a Cavalier archetype that did this (Battle Herald), you could single-class qualify for Battle Herald, or even skip it entirely and go single-class all the way being a Marshal type. Exemplar Brawler does the latter, but the flavor isn't right for a Cavalier type. (Inspiring Commander is a 3rd party = Rise Publish archetype that does this, but goes TOO far forward with this -- it replaces your mount, which is often a good idea, but definitely not always.)
I would like to see a bard archetype that gets rid of bardic music for powers related to art. Such paintings or sculptures that come to life as summing or animate object effects, create illusionary and real objects, pottery that explodes as thrown bombs, summing walls of artworks or discarded/failed pieces, moving through paintings as dimension door or creating pocket dimensions/small demi planes. There is so much potential for this one.
Might be a Bard/Alchemist hybrid. Related to this, how about a Mime Bard? Can cast without making a sound (so can use Silent Spell if learned), but cannot cast without motion (so cannot use Still Spell). Trades out spells with the [Sonic] and [Language-dependent] descriptors, but in exchange gets some Illusion spells.
Also I want to see a bard archetype that gets rid of bardic performance and all related abilities to gain investigator Inspiration and perhaps other abilities.
Again, not exactly what you want, but Detective Bard moved a significant distance in this direction, although keeping some of the things you want as part of Bardic Performance rather than replacing Bardic Performance entirely. When I first saw this I thought it was ridiculous, but if you read through a decent amount of this Carrion Crown PbP, you'll see that it actually makes sense -- this detective was doing the Sherlock Holmes thing with an archetype that came out about 4 years before the Advanced Class Guide.
A mime bard has more inter-party conflict potential than any class since the Frenzied Berserker. Tread carefully!
A mime bard would be SUCH an agro magnet!!!!!!!!!!
I would like a class that uses lots of swift action, 1-round buffs and immediate action de-buffs. Like, a master of action economy.
A mime bard and a jester bard would be nice for some classes or at least archetypes.
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I'd like to see a class that's mostly martial with just a hint of magical power, but the magical gift manifests at 1st level and then the character becomes a full-BAB martial.
Right now, the only classes that are "martial with minor magic" start out as completely non-magical and then start casting spells at 4th level, becoming more magical as the game progresses. Or they're 3/4-BAB classes with a handful of (Su) abilities that they eventually get.
What I want to see is a character who becomes an adventurer because he has some sort of magical boon that inspires him to chase his destiny, but his destiny is to be a great warrior instead of a wizard.
Right now, the closest thing we have is either a character that takes a level of a spellcasting class and then immediately multiclasses into a martial class, or a fighter-type with a racial SLA that he gets a lot of mileage out of. And now that racial SLA's don't qualify you for Arcane Strike anymore, those are significantly harder to pull off.
I'd like to see a class that's mostly martial with just a hint of magical power, but the magical gift manifests at 1st level and then the character becomes a full-BAB martial.
Right now, the only classes that are "martial with minor magic" start out as completely non-magical and then start casting spells at 4th level, becoming more magical as the game progresses. Or they're 3/4-BAB classes with a handful of (Su) abilities that they eventually get.
What I want to see is a character who becomes an adventurer because he has some sort of magical boon that inspires him to chase his destiny, but his destiny is to be a great warrior instead of a wizard.
Right now, the closest thing we have is either a character that takes a level of a spellcasting class and then immediately multiclasses into a martial class, or a fighter-type with a racial SLA that he gets a lot of mileage out of. And now that racial SLA's don't qualify you for Arcane Strike anymore, those are significantly harder to pull off.
I'd love to see a martial class that gets a lot of 0th-4th level utility spells, stuff like Endure Elements and Detect poison.
I would like to see more classes that have nothing to do with using magic, fighting, sneaking around, and healing people. Almost all the classes in Pathfinder and D&D (all versions) are variants on the original basic classes from the very early days of D&D.
There are many more things you can do in an rpg than fighting, and many more potentially interesting classes in a world in which magic is real.
I would like to see more classes that have nothing to do with using magic, fighting, sneaking around, and healing people. Almost all the classes in Pathfinder and D&D (all versions) are variants on the original basic classes from the very early days of D&D.
There are many more things you can do in an rpg than fighting, and many more potentially interesting classes in a world in which magic is real.
Uhh... I'm going to need to see an example of what you mean. I don't see a niche for a class that doesn't do anything to assist the party in succeeding.
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A class/Archetype that uses cards, dice, gambling, and luck as a weapon and defense.
A class/archetype that uses money as a weapon and defense.
A princess archetype that grants wild empathy and various other abilities from movies and fairy tales.
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2)A shapeshifter class, no spell casting, d10/full BA with 4+Int skill points or d8/average BA with 6+Int skill points and more special abilities.
3)An "Engineer" class with bombs, various tools/weapons/gadgets, is proficient with all simple weapons, all crossbows, all guns, and tech based weapons.
4)A "Wildling" class that is like Tarzan/jungle girl. Has d10HD/full BA, no spell casting, monk like AC but uses Cha instead of wisdom, adds Cha mod to will saves, good fort and ref saves, 6+Int skill points, and various favored terrain based abilities.
These I highly agree with, and I would like to add my two cents to these ideas.
Shapeshifter While you can theoretically have a spell caster with shapeshifting attributes, I do believe that an actual class who's main focus is shapeshifting is an excellent idea. Perhaps there can be a system similar to the sorcerer's bloodline or the oracle's mysteries, i.e., different ways that the shapeshifter can utilize. Can be themed into the world as odd people with immense determination and dreams. I can see the most likely of the races to follow this path would be half-elves and half-orcs, along with aasimars and teiflings. Examples include:
-Dragon shifter: Allows the shapeshifter to gain energy type resistances, natural attacks, breath attacks, wings for flying, and immense strength; suitable for a mix of melee and ranged attacks, depending on what the player wants.
-Aberrant shifter: Allows the shapeshifter to use some weird abilities, from resistances to various effects (like nauseated or blindness), unique natural attacks (like slam attacks from tentacles), and maybe even more odd abilities.
Engineer Perhaps a more melee version of the gunslinger, though not entirely. Perhaps able to, at later levels, apply unique qualities/abilities to his weapons (from making attacks with guns more likely to make the target bleed to allowing weapons a chance to deal damage while ignoring damage reduction). Races I think could work with this class (in RP themes of course) are humans, and maybe dwarves, half-elves and half-orcs.
Wildling Although we have something like this in the form of the Feral Child druid archetype for humans, I think that this should, honestly, replace that archetype. This is the most likely class that could be a hybrid class-while still having abilities of its own, this class could carry themes from the druid/ranger classes and the monk class. Pretty much any race from areas that have more wilderness than civilization can follow this path.
Again, these three classes are the ones that I personally think Pathfinder could utilize within the game.
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A princess archetype that grants wild empathy and various other abilities from movies and fairy tales.
For the princess with wild empthay, Urban Druid with the Nobility domain.
I'd go with Animal Speaker bard.
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A princess archetype that grants wild empathy and various other abilities from movies and fairy tales.For the princess with wild empthay, Urban Druid with the Nobility domain.I'd go with Animal Speaker bard.
I always wanted to do this, for exactly this type of character. Maybe in Crimson Throne...
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I'd go with Animal Speaker bard.
I would say no, as it has the sucky 'only talk with a single animal type', as in only take to badgers, only talk to foxes, only talk to sparrows, exc.
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I'd go with Animal Speaker bard.I would say no, as it has the sucky 'only talk with a single animal type', as in only take to badgers, only talk to foxes, only talk to sparrows, exc.
But... songbirds! :(
I'd go with Animal Speaker bard.I would say no, as it has the sucky 'only talk with a single animal type', as in only take to badgers, only talk to foxes, only talk to sparrows, exc.
Not quite; Animal Friend only works on a single animal type, but Soothing Performance has no such restrictions.
I like the idea of a gambling/Money/luck oriented character. The quintessential Gambler. I'll try to look at some existing options to add them all together.
I like the idea of a gambling/Money/luck oriented character. The quintessential Gambler. I'll try to look at some existing options to add them all together.
This is exactly what the Sczarni Swindler does. It is so close to being actually a great archetype, but alas, Let Face Decide being a standard action severely hinders it...
I'd like to see a class that's mostly martial with just a hint of magical power, but the magical gift manifests at 1st level and then the character becomes a full-BAB martial.
Right now, the only classes that are "martial with minor magic" start out as completely non-magical and then start casting spells at 4th level, becoming more magical as the game progresses. {. . .}
Give a look at Warrior of the Holy Light and Stonelord Paladin.
Several Monk archetypes do this, especially but not limited to Qinggong Monk.
Ninja does this to some extent with the appropriate Ninja Tricks. Rogue can even do this with the appropriate Talents, but as far as I can tell, the options for Rogue to do this are generally terrible, and Rogues don't make very good martials anyway (although sometimes not bad for a dip).
Battle Herald does this to varying extent depending upon build (you really need to see not just the prestige class page, but also the Battle Herald guide) -- you can choose builds that have limited but significant spellcasting, or builds with none at all (as long as you get the Bardic Performance and Cavalier's Challenge).
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Not quite; Animal Friend only works on a single animal type, but Soothing Performance has no such restrictions.I'd go with Animal Speaker bard.I would say no, as it has the sucky 'only talk with a single animal type', as in only take to badgers, only talk to foxes, only talk to sparrows, exc.
Also the Nature’s Speaker ability gives you extra types of friends as you level. And I think you'd be able to choose slightly broader groups such as "birds" or at least "songbirds" instead of "sparrows" given that "cats" and "snakes" are options and those tend to cover a bit more ground - though this may be subject to table variation.
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I'd like to see a class that's mostly martial with just a hint of magical power, but the magical gift manifests at 1st level and then the character becomes a full-BAB martial.
Right now, the only classes that are "martial with minor magic" start out as completely non-magical and then start casting spells at 4th level, becoming more magical as the game progresses. {. . .}
Give a look at Warrior of the Holy Light and Stonelord Paladin.
Several Monk archetypes do this, especially but not limited to Qinggong Monk.
Ninja does this to some extent with the appropriate Ninja Tricks. Rogue can even do this with the appropriate Talents, but as far as I can tell, the options for Rogue to do this are generally terrible, and Rogues don't make very good martials anyway (although sometimes not bad for a dip).
Battle Herald does this to varying extent depending upon build (you really need to see not just the prestige class page, but also the Battle Herald guide) -- you can choose builds that have limited but significant spellcasting, or builds with none at all (as long as you get the Bardic Performance and Cavalier's Challenge).
Bloodrager has magical abilities at first level, that blossom to casting at 4th.
I like the idea of a gambling/Money/luck oriented character. The quintessential Gambler. I'll try to look at some existing options to add them all together.This is exactly what the Sczarni Swindler does. It is so close to being actually a great archetype, but alas, Let Face Decide being a standard action severely hinders it...
You know, a switch hitter Sczarni swindler might not be the worst idea in the world. + 1/2 rogue level to all attack rolls for 1 minute 3+charisma/day is a very good deal for rogues. Standard Action is of course not ideal, but think of it as required the buff round for divine casters.
Being a fan of Alan Dean Foster's Spellsinger series, I love the idea of a bardic class with access to 9th-level spells. Bring on the spellsingers!
As for the idea of an improved version of the cloistered cleric, a hybrid version of the Mystic Theurge might suffice. Lets call the new class the mystic.
A bard with 9th level magic would be a song mage.
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You know, a switch hitter Sczarni swindler might not be the worst idea in the world. + 1/2 rogue level to all attack rolls for 1 minute 3+charisma/day is a very good deal for rogues. Standard Action is of course not ideal, but think of it as required the buff round for divine casters.I like the idea of a gambling/Money/luck oriented character. The quintessential Gambler. I'll try to look at some existing options to add them all together.This is exactly what the Sczarni Swindler does. It is so close to being actually a great archetype, but alas, Let Face Decide being a standard action severely hinders it...
Even still, the Sczarni swindler gets + 1/2 level to hit for one minute 3+Cha mod per day as a standard action.
An Investigator gets +1/2 level to hit and damage for Int mod rounds unlimited times per day as a move action.
One of the best rogue abilities in print, and an investigator still gets a better version of it.
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Bloodrager has magical abilities at first level, that blossom to casting at 4th.
That's the problem. I'm talking about a class that starts with magical abilities, and then never gets any more.
A Gnome Fighter with an SLA that takes Arcane Strike at 1st level is probably the best example of what I mean. He doesn't get more magic, he just gets better at using the original magical gift he had. Sadly, that's been rules-patched.
A legitimate way to play Bilbo Baggins.
Not magical, not particularly skilled at combat, but sort of... happens to get things right at the right time.
A few archetypes of existing classes get close, but never quite there. As long as the build has access to spells (the archaeologist bard, for instance) it in't right IMO.
A legitimate way to play Bilbo Baggins.
Not magical, not particularly skilled at combat, but sort of... happens to get things right at the right time.
A few archetypes of existing classes get close, but never quite there. As long as the build has access to spells (the archaeologist bard, for instance) it in't right IMO.
An Expert with Action Points?
An Expert with Action Points?A legitimate way to play Bilbo Baggins.
Not magical, not particularly skilled at combat, but sort of... happens to get things right at the right time.
A few archetypes of existing classes get close, but never quite there. As long as the build has access to spells (the archaeologist bard, for instance) it in't right IMO.
And wealth many times that of what is appropriate for his level.
- Best house in a village
- Mithril Chainshirt
- +1(?) Sword of Orc Detection
Bilbo is ballin'.
Uhh... I'm going to need to see an example of what you mean. I don't see a niche for a class that doesn't do anything to assist the party in succeeding.
Define "succeeding." I don't limit that word to combat.
In some campaigns, having a merchant, historian, researcher, or other non-combatant can be a very valuable thing.