|
It is a nice thought to want to help out your players, however this causes a problem. The cronicles are ment to be uniform so that everyone gets the same stuff. By adding in items that were in the adventure, but not on the chronicle, you have now made that chronicle better. This would be considered by some an unfair advantage or even a custom chronicle that could cause your players problems down the road. While this isn't the exact same situation here are Mike Brock's thoughts on custom chronicles.
Global Organized Play Coordinator
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
If something is encountered in the scenario, can a GM write it on the chronicle sheet?
It seems like items such as ghost salt weapon blanch and adamantine weapon blanch would be useful if characters could acquire them in core from chronicles having them.
Unless it is a spell book or scroll that is scribed or learned, the answer is no.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
|
Thanks for the response Mike. I asked David to throw this question up here after last nights game.
I knew the answer was currently no, but I wanted the idea to be brought to your attention. This is something relatively easy and neat that could be opened up at some point in the future. It would certainly spice up older chronicles for the Core campaign.
Still having tons of fun in Core without it though. Level 5 monk!
|
I also played in that game. It is my understanding that things like ghost salt, and the liquid ice that was found are not listed on the chronicle sheets, because before Core play was introduced those items would be in the Always Available category (assuming one has the proper Additional Resources).
Anyway thanks for your quick reply. Also enjoying playing Core.
|
Global Organized Play Coordinator
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Thanks for the response Mike. I asked David to throw this question up here after last nights game.
** spoiler omitted **
I knew the answer was currently no, but I wanted the idea to be brought to your attention. This is something relatively easy and neat that could be opened up at some point in the future. It would certainly spice up older chronicles for the Core campaign.
Still having tons of fun in Core without it though. Level 5 monk!
That would certainly be cool. Unfortunately, I see it exploited where Gms list things, people then turn around and sell it for gold. Then, people ask that the GM be able to add anything found in game to Chronicle sheets and it just spirals out of control.
|
|
That would certainly be cool. Unfortunately, I see it exploited where Gms list things, people then turn around and sell it for gold. Then, people ask that the GM be able to add anything found in game to Chronicle sheets and it just spirals out of control.Thanks for the response Mike. I asked David to throw this question up here after last nights game.
** spoiler omitted **
I knew the answer was currently no, but I wanted the idea to be brought to your attention. This is something relatively easy and neat that could be opened up at some point in the future. It would certainly spice up older chronicles for the Core campaign.
Still having tons of fun in Core without it though. Level 5 monk!
I would think if it were limited to an entry along the lines of:
Additional access to purchase: Ghost Salt Weapon Blanch (Limit: 1)as an example, then no question on having free stuff to sell, just a limited access to Standard mode Always Available gear that is not Always Available in Core mode.
|
|
Okay, now how am I as the next GM supposed to figure out if the previous GM was correct to put an item onto the sheet, assuming I don't have access to the scenario in question?
Ummm? Is there a reason to distrust the previous GM?
In that case, maybe another document available from Paizo, like the Secondary Success Conditions, called something on the nature of "Core Access Additions to Chronicle Sheets"?
That way, it would be standardized, no need to purchase scenarios you don't want to, and would cover this issue for the older scenarios, from pre-Core.
|
|
Maybe, maybe not. But if someone shows up with a hand-written note that they totally can have an item that they wouldn't otherwise be able to have, when we've been explicitly told in the past not to do that, well, I'd be inclined to disallow it. And they've had a problem with said GMs messing this kind of thing up before, so...
I understand that, really. Still waiting on getting a real chronicle for one of my higher level PCs, although the "custom" chronicle doesn't have anything not on the real chronicle...
And that was why I suggested that Paizo document, since it would be something that any GM could have on hand, to verify any items added from X, Y, or Z scenario.
One of the issues I see for Core is going to be that a lot of stuff won't be listed, due in part to complaints about things like Cloak of Resistance +1 being listed on Tier 7-11 chronicles, so why would they want to use up space listing anything that would already be Always Available?
So, either a separate document to track the items, or a second set of chronicles with non-Core stuff for Core PCs... And I think they have already said no change to chronicles...
|
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
What if, at the start of a scenario that requires extensive travel, the PCs manage to persuade an alchemist or gunslinger or summoner to travel with them and teach them the skills of that class. Can the GM make a note on the Chronicle Sheet that said class is now open to the PCs because they learned it in scenario?
Of course not; that's ridiculous.
My point being that this is the Core Campaign and I had thought one of its purposes was to strip down the game and limit non-Core material. There are already mechanics in place for allowing some non-Core material (wizards learning non-Core spells; non-Core material becoming available if printed on Chronicle Sheet, etc.). Do we really need more?
How many times and how wide do we want to crack open the door to let a few more non-Core items into the game? Open it often enough and wide enough and the only difference between the Core and non-Core games will be the types of characters that can be created at 1st Level.
|
|
What if, at the start of a scenario that requires extensive travel, the PCs manage to persuade an alchemist or gunslinger or summoner to travel with them and teach them the skills of that class. Can the GM make a note on the Chronicle Sheet that said class is now open to the PCs because they learned it in scenario?
Of course not; that's ridiculous.
My point being that this is the Core Campaign and I had thought one of its purposes was to strip down the game and limit non-Core material. There are already mechanics in place for allowing some non-Core material (wizards learning non-Core spells; non-Core material becoming available if printed on Chronicle Sheet, etc.). Do we really need more?
How many times and how wide do we want to crack open the door to let a few more non-Core items into the game? Open it often enough and wide enough and the only difference between the Core and non-Core games will be the types of characters that can be created at 1st Level.
Actually, this was about access to those items from non_Core that would NOT be listed on older chronicle sheets, the stuff that qualifies as mundane, and is therefore "Always Available" in Standard, so it wouldn't be listed on older chronicles, and probably not on newer chronicles.
Things like weapon blanches. Blunt arrows. Bandoliers.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
OK then allow me to spell it out. If you are a wizard and you find a spellbook or scroll of a non core spell, you may learn that spell, even if it is not on the chronicle sheet. If you are a fighter and find a weapon or some armor that is not core you are not allowed to purchase it unless it is on the chronicle sheet. If they disallowed either to get non core stuff unless it was on the chronicle I'd have no problem, but to allow one and not the other is blatant favoritism even if unintended. Be fair please, that's all I ask. Make the rules the same for everyone.
|
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
|
Wizards can get non-Core spells from spellbooks and scrolls. Non-wizards can get also get non-Core spells added to their spell list from scrolls. That was clarified in this blog. It is not just wizards that can expand their spell knowledge in Core.
So really, spellcasters in general have a sometimes-advantage if they encounter other spellbooks or come across non-Core scrolls. Similarly, there exist weapons on chronicle sheets with non-Core enchants (I know of an agile whip on one chronicles), that give martials a sometimes-advantage. As it is, I consider both to be a wash--they end up changing things so slightly that there is no need for alarm.
Furthermore, Steven makes a good point--this playmode is brand new and is still getting all the wrinkles ironed out. I assure you that your concern has been voiced and heard by Mike and John, because it has already been voiced before--as I linked in my last post.
I think the best thing to do now is give Core a little bit of time and see how these concerns actually work in practice.
So far, in all of the Core games I have played or run thusfar, there has been one spellbook with a non-Core spell. It was resolved easily and no one at the table harbored any ill will towards the wizard for scribing it into his book. So, in my experience, it has come up one time and was not the cause of any discomfort. I conclude that for now, there is no need to adjust the system any further.
EDIT: I have played 14 games of Core and run 8 tables thusfar.
|
|
Only spellcasters are getting access to stuff that is not listed on the chronicle. Non spellcasters are limited to purchasing only the exact version of a weapon and only if it is on a chronicle sheet. So you might be able to purchase a +1 Ki focus nine ring broadsword because it's on a chronicle, but you will never be able to get a normal one, or a cold iron one, etc.
Again, it's not really that big of a deal. If I couldn't get access to anything non core I'd be fine with it. It's the fact that spellcasters get special treatment exceptions that rubs me the wrong way. Make the rules uniform for all players and all classes.
|
I think that it is important to point out that it is not all spell casters who get expanded access, in fact, it is really only the wizard. The sorcerer, cleric, druid, and bard get no expanded spell access. This does put my favorite class, the sorcerer, farther behind the wizard in core, but oh well, I guess I will just play sorcerers in standard PFS.
|
Other PCs able to cast spells—spontaneously or from a divine spell list that does not depend on a spellbook—can learn spells they find in scroll form so long as they buy the scroll and expend it to add the spell to her list of legal spells; spontaneous spellcasters must still expend known spell slots in order to learn the spell. These PCs cannot learn non-Core spells from spellbooks.
|
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
|
If it's not that big of a deal to you then you may want to tone down language like this in your posts.
So the decision for core is that spell casters get non-core toys but martials can go !@$# themselves, they don't get access to anything they find. Are you serious? Wow.. just wow, I don't even know how to respond to that.
|
|
If it's not that big of a deal to you then you may want to tone down language like this in your posts.
So the decision for core is that spell casters get non-core toys but martials can go !@$# themselves, they don't get access to anything they find. Are you serious? Wow.. just wow, I don't even know how to respond to that.
It's not a big deal to how the game plays, and won't change much at the table one way or another, but it should be changed. I'd like them to realize that just because they used nice words doesn't make it any less insulting of a ruling to blatantly favor one class over the others.
|
|
Only spellcasters are getting access to stuff that is not listed on the chronicle. Non spellcasters are limited to purchasing only the exact version of a weapon and only if it is on a chronicle sheet.
You do realize this is exactly the same as for standard PFS where wizards get access to spellbooks that are not on the chronicle. This is not core specific. I suggest you take this to the standard campaign board.
|
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It's not a big deal to how the game plays, and won't change much at the table one way or another, but it should be changed. I'd like them to realize that just because they used nice words doesn't make it any less insulting of a ruling to blatantly favor one class over the others.If it's not that big of a deal to you then you may want to tone down language like this in your posts.
So the decision for core is that spell casters get non-core toys but martials can go !@$# themselves, they don't get access to anything they find. Are you serious? Wow.. just wow, I don't even know how to respond to that.
Using nice words is part of having a constructive discussion. No matter how much we disagree with something, expressing ourselves by swearing doesn't help to solve anything.
If this is something that you would like changed, I would recommend starting a constructive dialogue about it. Specifically, I would encourage you to start a new thread for that topic exclusively, because the question originally asked in this thread has already been addressed by campaign leadership.
|
|
you know, I have seen Boon Chronicles listing weapons from Non-Core books... For example, wouldn't Tien Weapon Training open almost any eastern weapon to a Marital PC?
I don't recall a Boon Chronicle offering spells from Non-Core books... Is there one?
Would Clerics be the Marital PCs in Core?
More seriously, @Walter Sheppard:
Wouldn't this be the correct thread to ask for the access mentioned by the first poster, or to have the lack of said non-Core mundane items to have some method of access granted, similar to spellcasters and non-Core spells?
At present, the problem is due to a limitation of the existing scenarios, where anything on the Always Available list, which includes for Standard/Classic PFS, anything in a non-Core book that is mundane, other than firearms and their ammunition, would never have been listed, since the items were, as mentioned, Always Available.
However, for the Core campaign, any non-Core mundane items are no longer on the Always Available list.
Gnoams, understandably, was a bit upset by the double standard currently in use in the Core campaign, where non-Chronicled non-Core spells can still be learned by a Core PC, even though there is no Core documentation for this on the Chronicle.
So, since the GM will already have to annotate the chronicle for special access for spells, is it that much of a further step for them to also annotate access to mundane non-Core materials found?
I could even see putting in purchase limits, limiting access to the number of said item found in the scenario.
I am sure there are volunteers available, I would even volunteer to do it myself, to help research a document, similar in appearance, to the Secondary Success Conditions document, for Non-Core Item Access.
|
|
Personally, I'd prefer to see the Core Campaign take the opposite approach. I'd prefer to see non-Core spells be "unlearnable", non-Core items crossed off Chronicle Sheets and any Boon or Benefit that grants a non-Core item or mechanic eliminated.
I do recognize that I'm just a "player" in this campaign and that our Campaign Leadership is the "GM"; I'm happy to play in the game either way and will gladly abide by whatever its rules are.
However, I do believe the implied social contract of the game is one where the GM clearly explains the rules beforehand, so that each player can decide if the game fits their taste/playstyle/etc. and is something they actually want to play. I just want to know what I'm playing before I play.
I've currently played two different Core Campaign characters and had looked forward to GMing Core Campaign scenarios, but I think I will wait until the Campaign Leadership has had a chance to process and evaluate this (and other) discussions, make their official ruling(s) and communicate everything via an official guide before I get any further involved in Core.
|
|
I think this whole approach can we can get this or that in core is wrong. The whole Core campaign is IMHO already going downhill, just as it starts. Esp., long time players know which spell they can get in which mod and some will make use of it. For a newcomer or non-regular player this is not really something they want to see, and over time will just be driven away.
The announcement of the core campaign made me want to get back into PFS, this drives me away. All the talk about where can I get which non-core item. IMHO a wrong decision from the campaign staff, but this is IMHO.
If you want your goodies play the regular campaign.
I would suggest, if a non-core spell is on the chronicle, and on the chronicle only - you can scribe it into your spellbook or a spellcaster can learn it, in case of those who do not use a spellbook. And that's it. Still open to abuse, but leaves some ambiguity out.
If a non-core ioun stone is on the chronicle, you can buy it. But resonance powers should not work, unless the whole blurb and rules are printed on the chronicle.
If you find a non-core weapon, they should be allowed, and allowed to upgrade.
Just allow the chronicle, and with the new adventures coming out, you can add goodies to the chronicle.
|
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
|
More seriously, @Walter Sheppard:
Wouldn't this be the correct thread to ask for the access mentioned by the first poster, or to have the lack of said non-Core mundane items to have some method of access granted, similar to spellcasters and non-Core spells?
I don't believe so; the question asked by the OP was "is it OK to pencil in items found in the scenario that aren't on the chronicle?" The answer to which, via Brock, is "unless it's a spellbook or a scroll that is learned or scribed, no."
The follow up being, "I disagree with this ruling, it should either be changed to allow items added to chronicles or should be restricted to prevent spellcasters from getting new spells."
If you disagree with an existing ruling, standard practice is to start a 'proposal' type thread and lay out your argument, in hopes of discussing it with campaign leadership.
In this case, however, leadership has basically said that Core is new and that we're still figuring out what works best for it. Given that, making changes like this right out of the gate are not likely to happen. This is why I encourage anyone that has issues with Core at the moment to hold off, play a few games of Core, collect your thoughts, then consider posting proposed changes.
|
|
If you find a non-core weapon, they should be allowed, and allowed to upgrade.
This is where the current issue is.
Right now, other than firearms, any mundane, masterwork, or +1 weapon, are Always Available, and, therefore, won't be listed on the Chronicle sheet, especially for older scenarios.
So, want a fauchard? Not only does it need to be found during a scenario, but it has to be "better" than a +1 fauchard, so it gets listed on the chronicle.
And, although I am not sure, I suspect that it won't be upgradeable in Core, in any case.
|
|
I don't see why non-unique magic weapons wouldn't be upgradeable. If a chronicle has say, a +2 sawtooth sabre on it, I would expect it could be upgradeable, provided you're giving it something out of the CRB. It's not a named item, after all, I don't see why they'd deviate from the Guide on something like this.
|
|
The main problem for Core martials, in order to play with something like a sawtooth sabre, the need to find a +2 or better one, if they find a mwk or +1 sawtooth sabre, those will not be on a chronicle sheet as for the normal play mode those are always available items (assuming one has the proper additional resources, which would still be required if one gets the item on a chronicle sheet in Core).
|
In this case, however, leadership has basically said that Core is new and that we're still figuring out what works best for it. Given that, making changes like this right out of the gate are not likely to happen. This is why I encourage anyone that has issues with Core at the moment to hold off, play a few games of Core, collect your thoughts, then consider posting proposed changes.
While I think it's unlikely that Mike and John will decide to allow mundane items to be written into chronicles, or that they will ever be fully included on chronicles, I do think that it's worth pointing out that people speaking up and explaining their issues with different aspects of Core has already resulted in some significant changes. If people hadn't spoken up about the lack of Golarion specific languages, those wouldn't have been added. If people hadn't spoken up about non-Wizards being able to learn non-Core spells from scrolls, that wouldn't have happened.
Your advice for anyone seeking a change to collect their thoughts is good, because a well formed case in favor of a change is more likely to get attention. I just thought it was worth pointing out that campaign leadership has shown that, when faced with a good enough reason, they are willing to make a change right out of the gate. In fact, in some instances, it might make more sense to make certain changes now.
I don't see a strong enough argument for listing all non-Core mundane items on chronicles. It's a lot of bookkeeping for items that, for the most part, don't have a large mechanical impact (a few weapons and armor excepting). While that does mean they're unlikely to be game breaking, it also means spending a not insignificant amount of time keeping track of them. Plus, not doing that by default means mundane items can be included as special items on future chronicles. Something like including a sawtooth sabre in a scenario centered around the Red Mantis Assassins, or possibly a boon like the several out there which grant a free mundane item instead granting a free mundane item from any source.
|
|
Why is this an issue? Not listed, you don't get it. This is supposed to be a Core campaign, not Core and get all the goodies.
As said, I don't get some of the comments, who are so concerned with access.
If you find a non-core weapon, they should be allowed, and allowed to upgrade.This is where the current issue is.
Right now, other than firearms, any mundane, masterwork, or +1 weapon, are Always Available, and, therefore, won't be listed on the Chronicle sheet, especially for older scenarios.
So, want a fauchard? Not only does it need to be found during a scenario, but it has to be "better" than a +1 fauchard, so it gets listed on the chronicle.
And, although I am not sure, I suspect that it won't be upgradeable in Core, in any case.
|
|
In this case, however, leadership has basically said that Core is new and that we're still figuring out what works best for it. Given that, making changes like this right out of the gate are not likely to happen. This is why I encourage anyone that has issues with Core at the moment to hold off, play a few games of Core, collect your thoughts, then consider posting proposed changes.While I think it's unlikely that Mike and John will decide to allow mundane items to be written into chronicles, or that they will ever be fully included on chronicles, I do think that it's worth pointing out that people speaking up and explaining their issues with different aspects of Core has already resulted in some significant changes. If people hadn't spoken up about the lack of Golarion specific languages, those wouldn't have been added. If people hadn't spoken up about non-Wizards being able to learn non-Core spells from scrolls, that wouldn't have happened.
Your advice for anyone seeking a change to collect their thoughts is good, because a well formed case in favor of a change is more likely to get attention. I just thought it was worth pointing out that campaign leadership has shown that, when faced with a good enough reason, they are willing to make a change right out of the gate. In fact, in some instances, it might make more sense to make certain changes now.
I don't see a strong enough argument for listing all non-Core mundane items on chronicles. It's a lot of bookkeeping for items that, for the most part, don't have a large mechanical impact (a few weapons and armor excepting). While that does mean they're unlikely to be game breaking, it also means spending a not insignificant amount of time keeping track of them. Plus, not doing that by default means mundane items can be included as special items on future chronicles. Something like including a sawtooth sabre in a scenario centered around the Red Mantis Assassins, or possibly a boon like the several out there which...
Main thing I was thinking about was for the group I am going to be doing Core with, online, where we are going to be doing Season 0 & 1 on the road to Eyes with all the right backgrounds, if you know what I mean.
But, since we are staying with the relevant scenarios for Eyes background, none of them will offer much chronicle access for non-Core stuff.
@PeteZero: Some of it harks back to the Potion Sponge question and its relatives. If the source for Potion Sponges is not legal for Core, can you still drink a potion underwater without a problem?
|
|
I would be in favour of allowing non-core items to be added to chronicles with a purchase limit of what was found & unused in the scenario.
My concern would be the increase in bookkeeping for GMs after finishing a long evening of PFS. The potential for abuse in my area wouldn't be a concern at the moment (small & easygoing player base), but I could certainly see it being an issue for others.
|
|
Main thing I was thinking about was for the group I am going to be doing Core with, online, where we are going to be doing Season 0 & 1 on the road to Eyes with all the right backgrounds, if you know what I mean.
But, since we are staying with the relevant scenarios for Eyes background, none of them will offer much chronicle access for non-Core stuff.
Honestly, for a build up to Eyes, this might be a good thing. Especially if you're running for a 6 player group. The difficulty level of it is... less than what it should be with 6 players, all the additional resources, and with advancing to 13th level in the middle of the arc. I don't think any of those were how it was originally meant to run.
Since you're doing the season 0 and 1 scenarios, think of it like time travel. You're running them as they would have been at the time. Even throw in faction missions, if you want.
EDIT: fixed quote block
|
The main problem for Core martials, in order to play with something like a sawtooth sabre, the need to find a +2 or better one, if they find a mwk or +1 sawtooth sabre, those will not be on a chronicle sheet as for the normal play mode those are always available items (assuming one has the proper additional resources, which would still be required if one gets the item on a chronicle sheet in Core).
I imagine going forward, things like these may be included. Hell, new scenarios may even have differing Core Mode Chronicles (with things that would normally be Always Available in Classic mode listed).
In the meantime, the old chronicles are what they are. If you want an agile weapon, I hope you play [redacted] and have [redacted] proficiency.
As an aside, is it even possible to get proficiency in a weapon you pick up? Sawtooth Sabres aren't listed as Exotic Weapons in the CRB, so Exotic Weapon Proficiency(Sawtooth Sabre) wouldn't be a viable feat choice, right?