He is a god. Gods do not have stats?
He is a god. Gods do not have stats?
I wouldn't mind seeing avatars or aspects of them though ;)
He has whole hell to govern. There are [Countless]devils he can send.
Lawful Evil, Deity, Infinity Stats.
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i need stats for asmodeus is there a actual stat block for him? if not what would it potentially look like?
Paizo writers do not want PCs to be able to participate in standard high fantasy plots, because that might actually involve changing the status quo and making the adventure meaningful, and we cannot have that. So anyone with actual importance to the multiverse gets no stats, and anyone with token importance gets stats clearly telling that the writers do not want you to be able to win.
However, you can use the 3.5 stats for his aspect from the Fiendish Codex II. He's CR 27, and that is theoretically just about right for a greater god - the real deal, not an aspect, of course - almost out of reach of max level PCs, but defeatable if he ever leaves himself open.
Of course, in practice CRs mean next to nothing past level 12-15 and you'll need to seriously tinker with his spell list to avoid him being effectively taken out for good by a Dazing Chain Lightning or something on the first round. Possibly give some Mythic Powers to compensate for overall powerlevel growth in Pathfinder.
Why do you need stats?
What is the situation? It's a role-play encounter, a boss battle or a what if scenario?
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Paizo writers do not want PCs to be able to participate in standard high fantasy plots, because that might actually involve changing the status quo and making the adventure meaningful, and we cannot have that. So anyone with actual importance to the multiverse gets no stats, and anyone with token importance gets stats clearly telling that the writers do not want you to be able to win.
To put a different spin on this:
It's well-known among gamers that "if you give it stats, people will figure out a way to kill it". If Paizo published stats for gods, people would find a rules-legal way to kill them.
That doesn't mean Paizo doesn't want you to do meaningful things, but they want to leave that to the GM. If they published stats for gods, that would reduce the GM's freedom to decide just how all-powerful he wants gods to be. Because you'd always have players talking about "yeah, but you made them more/less powerful than the RAW".
You could seek out the Deities and Demigods 3.5 book. If you use that as a baseline for a god, could work.
My issue is as state above however; stat it, watch it die.
Perhaps the DM intended to make Asmodeus killable?
Not everyone has to follow Golarion's canon to make a good game.
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Of course there are stats. Have fun!
They statted out C'thulu in Bestiary 4 and he's only a CR 30, there's got to be stats for Asmodeus somewhere.
He however comes with the Immortality (Ex) Feature which makes him go back to his tomb so you can never really kill him.
The other Great Old Ones all have it actually, their conditions for return are all different to coincide with their insanity.
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Ah well guess if you wanted to make Asmodeus killable somehow, CR 32-35 sounds about right.
Roughly 900-940 hp guess might as well give him 1000 hp, AC 52, +50 attack bonus, roughly 330 dmg per round,
DC of his abilities 42-45, Good save everywhere so +33-36 for each. Of course toss in regeneration, damage reduction, immunity to most status effects and at least Immune to fire, energy resistance to all energies.
-Of course he is a spellcaster for our purposes, might as well say he knows and can cast every single spells. Feel free to give him all contingencies in the world. Would recommend to simply tweak his spell list to fight your party, after all Asmodeus would have studied them or know about them.
-Magic and artifacts, it is stated that Asmodeus has every items ever made or even items that are going to be made in his vault for our purposes, you can equip Asmodeus with whatever you want.
-As the head honcho of the Nine Hells, Asmodeus can summon any devils, including Archdevils to his side at will. It might give a lot of extra work to stat out archdevils as well, so frankly would stick to summon Duke of Hell at most (Advanced Pit Fiends).
-Asmodeus is also a great smooth talker and has been known to make very tempting offer, that would eventually doom his victim. Even if something is beneficial for the moment,including centuries, remember Asmodeus has no concept of time , being able to live forever, he can just wait it out. Reminder basically that Asmodeus is a trickster god at the core.
Some suggestions to start with --
1) Look at Nocticula's numbers.
2) Double everything - hit dice, stats, etc. Start customizing skills.
3) Spells/SLAs - Asmodeus should be able to cast anything that isn't a [chaos] or [good] subtype spell as a standard action, with no range limitation, without regard to components. Can apply metamagics on the fly (up to you as what to cap it at), and treats any cast spells as the mythic version.
4) Treat any feats as the mythic version where applicable.
5) Expand Nocticula's laundry list of immunities. Give him evasion & stalwart, and if targetted by an effect that doesn't allow a save, that effect is now (Asmodeus's best save) Negates.
6) Give him serious dickery on top of that. Stuff like - he's a god of magic. Any spell uses against him that fails immediately rebounds on the caster. He's a god of fire - he simply ignores fire resistance; immunity halves damage instead. He's a good of deception - perhaps his illusions have a grace period where divination can't pierce them and there's no save allowed to disbelieve. He's a god of slavery - any [charm] or [compulsion] effect he casts ignores immunities (requiring a save as normal), and has a duration of instantaneous (Dismissable).
(Yes, if he hit someone with Irresistable Dance, they would dance for the rest of their life - or until he tells them to stop.)
There's certainly precedent for gods being vanquished (such as Lamashtu slaying and consuming Curchanus and becoming a goddess herself, or Savith - an Azlanti fighter 20/champion 6 - beheading Ydersius) - but it should be a completely daunting task.
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They are when the plot involves putting a god in a position where a group of bad-ass mortals can kill it =P
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They are when the plot involves putting a god in a position where a group of bad-ass mortals can kill it =P
Well, normally the plot also involves some special way -- typically involving the help of other gods -- that the god can be killed by mortals, and not by straight-up hit point attrition. If you want to kill Balder, first get yourself some arrows of mistletoe. If you wan to kill the Eight Immortals, first find where they've hidden their hearts.
Somewhere there's a magical bowling ball that, if dropped on Asmodeus' toe, will kill him. Other stats are irrelevant.
I also recommend not stating Asmodeus, but take a look at paizo's infernal duke or Pazuzu stat block or for something even greater there is Lucifer from FGG.
Paizo writers do not want PCs to be able to participate in standard high fantasy plots, because that might actually involve changing the status quo and making the adventure meaningful, and we cannot have that. So anyone with actual importance to the multiverse gets no stats, and anyone with token importance gets stats clearly telling that the writers do not want you to be able to win.To put a different spin on this:
It's well-known among gamers that "if you give it stats, people will figure out a way to kill it". If Paizo published stats for gods, people would find a rules-legal way to kill them.
That doesn't mean Paizo doesn't want you to do meaningful things, but they want to leave that to the GM. If they published stats for gods, that would reduce the GM's freedom to decide just how all-powerful he wants gods to be. Because you'd always have players talking about "yeah, but you made them more/less powerful than the RAW".
Perhaps the DM intended to make Asmodeus killable?
Not everyone has to follow Golarion's canon to make a good game.
Both are correct: Paizo doesn't want to put stats out that will stomp on individual campaigns' approaches, but individual GMs are certainly empowered by Paizo's intentions to make the gods have whatever stats work for that GM. (Personifying "Paizo" as the general comments on this issue I have seen from the staff).
FatR, you've got a huge chip on your shoulder, haven't you? I dunno, I think it is wise for them not to reveal god stats. People can do whatever they want in home games, I don't think Paizo people are hostile to that notion -- rather they encourage it.
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@ Saldiven - that's basically how Tiamat works in 4E. Each head gets its own action. Other statted up Gods in 4E had other goofy things going on; my personal favorite being Vecna's ability to take an immediate bonus action when a PC spends a hero point.
@ Akerlof - While Golarionverse Gods are crushingly powerful, they aren't actually omnipotent. Granting spells has only a small impact on a creature's personal power (or often has none at all) - look at the Divine Source mythic ability or the various quasi-deities and demigods that have been statted out.
Being able to grant spells is a perk that makes it much easier to get followers and servants, rather than something that actually helps in combat. (Though I house rule demigods to get all of their domain spells as 1/day SLAs, myself; I think Paizo lowballed the capabilities of demigods.)
Also, if the party's managed to force a God into battle (and thus already done something to escape being plot-smote), have the fight just be "it casts infinite spells until you die, the end" is really boring. =P
Bonus domain spell SLAs at the end of each PC's turn could be interesting, though. I do agree that the domains should matter.
Hmmm. (Also, taking my "double Nocticula's numbers" thing, you'd be looking at caster level 60 as a base for every generated effect.)
@ Evil Lincoln - absolutely agreed that Paizo shouldn't stat actual gods. They're far more useful to GMs as relatively undefined forces for the GM to use as he or she pleases.
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I think people often miss the point of godhood. The encounter would actually go something like:
PCs: We've prepared all our lives to remove you from your seat of power, you wretched being!
Godly Creature: *wills PCs out of existence*
Feel free to change that last bit to whatever other horrific consequence you feel may be appropriate.
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Since there are no stats for him, that would be up to you as to how powerful he is.
As for mortals battling gods, what difference does it make if the PCs are mortal or not? It's how powerful you are (CR) that counts, not if you're mortal or not.
There are many immortal creatures in this game in the CR 20 - 30 range with plenty of godlike powers that can easily be used as replacements for deities. Especially creatures with Wish and/or Miracle spell-like abilities. Since Wish and Miracle requires GM discretion to use the greater and open ended portion of them, that means those spells can pretty much accomplish anything regardless of how powerful and crazy it is. With this being the case, personally I would have no need for stats for deities (but I would still like to see them).
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I think people often miss the point of godhood. The encounter would actually go something like:
PCs: We've prepared all our lives to remove you from your seat of power, you wretched being!
Godly Creature: *wills PCs out of existence*Feel free to change that last bit to whatever other horrific consequence you feel may be appropriate.
Some people want to tell a story like God of War, and there's nothing wrong with that.
Some people DON'T want to tell that story, but think gods should be truly omnipotent.
We only run into problems when one group tells the other what to do.
@ Evil Lincoln - absolutely agreed that Paizo shouldn't stat actual gods. They're far more useful to GMs as relatively undefined forces for the GM to use as he or she pleases.
Sigh. And once again, there are reasons I shall never see one of the things I long to. Alas.
Since there are no stats for him, that would be up to you as to how powerful he is.
As for mortals battling gods, what difference does it make if the PCs are mortal or not? It's how powerful you are (CR) that counts, not if you're mortal or not.
There are many immortal creatures in this game in the CR 20 - 30 range with plenty of godlike powers that can easily be used as replacements for deities. Especially creatures with Wish and/or Miracle spell-like abilities. Since Wish and Miracle requires GM discretion to use the greater and open ended portion of them, that means those spells can pretty much accomplish anything regardless of how powerful and crazy it is. With this being the case, personally I would have no need for stats for deities (but I would still like to see them).
Gods are roughly ~ CR 36, per James Jacobs, actually. Just for the record.
@ Evil Lincoln - absolutely agreed that Paizo shouldn't stat actual gods. They're far more useful to GMs as relatively undefined forces for the GM to use as he or she pleases.Sigh. And once again, there are reasons I shall never see one of the things I long to. Alas.
Yes. It's a pity that Intergalactic copyright law prevents you from statting up Asmodeus with whatever numbers you like. Your lifelong ambitions and dreams have been shattered....
I think people often miss the point of godhood. The encounter would actually go something like:
PCs: We've prepared all our lives to remove you from your seat of power, you wretched being!
Godly Creature: *wills PCs out of existence*Feel free to change that last bit to whatever other horrific consequence you feel may be appropriate.
Some people want to tell a story like God of War, and there's nothing wrong with that.
Some people DON'T want to tell that story, but think gods should be truly omnipotent.
We only run into problems when one group tells the other what to do.
I'm not telling anyone what to do. Write your stories however you want. That type of quest arc could certainly be intriguing. I did read the Dragonlance Legends trilogy, after all.
It just seems to me that there is often a disconnect between how people view the powers of gods and how they view those powers once they want to start fighting them.
Yes. It's a pity that Intergalactic copyright law prevents you from statting up Asmodeus with whatever numbers you like. Your lifelong ambitions and dreams have been shattered....@ Evil Lincoln - absolutely agreed that Paizo shouldn't stat actual gods. They're far more useful to GMs as relatively undefined forces for the GM to use as he or she pleases.Sigh. And once again, there are reasons I shall never see one of the things I long to. Alas.
Sarcasm toned down, it is a pity for me and those like me - however minor - that I shan't have what I like.
But I am not against anyone making stats for gods - myself or anyone else. What I was indicating, which was ignored in what feels like the haste to scold, was that I want to see Paizo's take on it. This is what I really would like. They have mentioned the rough CR. They have mentioned that they're able to be defeated. They have statted the creatures that can (under certain circumstances) defeat them. I would like to see them go the whole way. I always have.
EDIT:
I'm not telling anyone what to do.
Actually, intentionally or not, you did, right here:
I think people often miss the point of godhood. The encounter would actually go something like:
PCs: We've prepared all our lives to remove you from your seat of power, you wretched being!
Godly Creature: *wills PCs out of existence*Feel free to change that last bit to whatever other horrific consequence you feel may be appropriate.
By using non-variable language, you indicated that there was only one way for the event to ever play out, hence, indicating that anything else was just incorrect.
Again, it might not be your intent, but that's why it came off that way.
It's a good thing we're not playing a wargame, then.
I was hoping the overdone bits would indicate a bit of humor on my part. *shrug*
Inartful drafting, but not telling you how to run your game.
And that's basically how the fight would go, until people want to start particpating in that fight themselves. Which is the point I was getting at.
Gods are insurmountable powers, not to be trifled with and beyond our mortal comprehension. Well, until I reach 20th level. Then I want to be able to poke them with my stick.
My apologies if I came off as judging one's desire to assault Mt. Olympus. As I said, it's an intriguing storyline. I just find humor in how people view these plot devices and how that changes from time to time.
No prob: I did myself, like, two posts up, as you can see!
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To put a different spin on this:It's well-known among gamers that "if you give it stats, people will figure out a way to kill it". If Paizo published stats for gods, people would find a rules-legal way to kill them.
Well, right, that's the exact point. Why whould people be unable to kill gods?
To take a non-DnD example, Galactic Emperor Palpatine is a waaaaay better-known and setting-important character than any Golarion god. Killing him ahead of schedule will derail the whole storyline that draws people to Star Wars RPGs in the first place. Yet both WEG Star Wars and Star Wars d20 included statblocks for him.
Now, there might be a valid argument about having transcedent divinity in the setting, where gods simply operate on an entirely different level of ability and cognition than mortals, and cannot even be understood unless they deliberately reveal as much about them as a mortal mind can handle.
Golarionverse (or most of the old DnDverses) is not based on this concept. We have a pretty exact description of its metaphysics. The only difference between gods and your common outsiders, sometimes your common mortals, thanks the Mythic rules, is the quantity of power. Qualitatively they are the same. Golarion gods are not transcedent ineffable beings. They are not even living incarnations of concepts, like DnDverse gods sometimes were - in 4E Tiamat WAS greed itself in the draconic shape, and you could erase the whole idea of greed from the multiverse by stabbing her in the face, and there was an adventure path about that - but in PF Asmodeus is not the very idea of tyranny, he's just the most successful tyrant in the world. Golarion gods are not even the type of gods who regardless of their all-too-human fallibility are so absurdly powerful and important that even if they are somehow wrong, they snap their fingers and the multiverse bends backwards to make them right anyway. They are just planar bigshots, they are big and they are bad, but the difference is, again, quantitative. There is no reason why they can be treated like they were in OD&D, where you stabbed Lolth in the face and ransaked her Demonweb Pits.
That doesn't mean Paizo doesn't want you to do meaningful things, but they want to leave that to the GM. If they published stats for gods, that would reduce the GM's freedom to decide just how all-powerful he wants gods to be.
Again, you're missing the fact that Golarion metaphysics are well-defined. Beneath all flashy superpowers and heroic deeds, it is a Lovecraftian atheist multiverse where gods are definitely not above the world's rules. Gods can be made by intent (the Iron Gods' big bad) or lucky accident (Cayden Cailean, Norgorber), gods can be imprisoned (Rovagug), tortured into insanity (Zon-Kuthon) or horribly crippled (Ydersius), and gods can be destroyed (Aroden). I don't see any good reasons why doing any of that should be forever beyond PCs reach. And adjusting a god's charlist so it is more powerful, or less powerful, is far too easier than writing a charlist from scratch. I can do the latter, but I'd much prefer if the game writers saved me some work, that's the whole reason I'm using their products, after all.
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@FatR:
I'm not saying gods can't be killed. I've played in a campaign where we crashed Heaven down from its volcano mountaintop onto the capital city of the gods' empire, and scorched the place thoroughly with the thrusters of their own starship. That was a fun campaign. So please don't take me to be some kind of purist who thinks divinity should be the same in every campaign.
However, part of why gods work as a plot device is that there is a certain air of mystery surrounding them. They aren't nearly as impressive (to me, and to quite a few other people) if you knew their stats.
That doesn't mean you can't handle viewing them; but I'd be disappointed. Some people don't mind finding out Santa isn't real, others do.
Or compare it to a magic trick; for most people it just isn't as magical if you know how it's really done.
So I support Paizo's choice; for me it'd be a letdown to see those stats.
So I support Paizo's choice; for me it'd be a letdown to see those stats.
Aye, that's the rub. I totally respect how you feel - for me, however, the opposite is true. And that's what I was (poorly) alluding to above - I want their stats published, but I submit that there is a reason why it's not - a valid one, i.e. other people have different preferences.
(Not that I mind people having different preferences - it's awesome that our game is so diverse! - but mine is currently not catered to in this regard, and I get that, though, due to being my preferences, I'd prefer differently. I... guess that's tautological, though. :D)
Google dicefreaks. They have a 3.5 netbook Named Gates of Hell. In their Forums there is probably a PF conversion for Asmodeus.
Google dicefreaks. They have a 3.5 netbook Named Gates of Hell. In their Forums there is probably a PF conversion for Asmodeus.
I remember their old site being deleted and replaced with a new one, but it had no where near the old content it did.
I never really liked their conversions, to be honest. The bloated stat blocks were beyond ridiculous.
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/sarcasm
What, Asmodeus CR 36? That's two rounds of combat from a moderately optimized mid-level party, and when I say "moderately optimized" I mean that even chimpanzees could do that, let alone human beings who actually comprehend what 'math' and 'balance' mean.
/sarcasm
/hugs my FC2. Heaps scorn elsewhere/
Google dicefreaks. They have a 3.5 netbook Named Gates of Hell. In their Forums there is probably a PF conversion for Asmodeus.I remember their old site being deleted and replaced with a new one, but it had no where near the old content it did.
I never really liked their conversions, to be honest. The bloated stat blocks were beyond ridiculous.
Yes unfortunately they moved several time. The netbook should still be findable at least though.
You'll have to see their high CRs in context though. They started from DDG builds and integrated ELH rules. Unlike PF, 3.5 had no ceiling. Dicefreaks ceiling i.e. highest level attainable for a mortal was 50 iirc.
I too prefer a lower ceiling (20 or 30) but I applaud Dicefreaks for integrating and fixing up deity rules with epic rules, their god stats, the statting the unstattable manifesto and a great flavorful netbook and setting.
Huh, think I had a post swallowed?
A freshly revived god (as in, the party is right there when it happens) is CR 20.
Defeating him at that fight returns him to dormancy; killing him permanently is a bonus objective for Continuing the Campaign.
So you could conceivable use his CR 20 stat block as a base and start scaling it upwards.
@ Gorbacz - you forgot the harem of deity simulacrums. =P