For some time I pictured a foil or epee when I read rapier in d&d or PF books. Flimsy things with flexible blades.
Then I read some stuff about the different kinds of swords and realized I was wrong. But from how people talk/write about the rapier I sometimes get the impression that they, too, picture the light fencing blades.
Another point that makes me think the pf apier might closer resemble other weapons is, that the rapier could be used for cutting/slashing attack in addition to piercing ones. Which pf doesnt allow.
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PF doesn't allow longswords to pierce either. You're overthinking it.
Also, historical rapiers may have a sharpened edge and can cut a bit, but the cross-section shape of the blade was more of a diamond and really only supported thrusting attacks and couldn't really cut as deeply as other cut-designed swords.
The cutting edge is not my main point. That many players seem to see the rapier as flimsy and unmanly is.
And I think they do because they think about the wrong weapon.
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PF falchions are also not really falchions. They're more like big scimitars.
Not a big deal to me though.
Does it matter? The game rules are what they are. Generally speaking whether a weapon is piercing, bludgeoning, or slashing wont be particularly important after about level 5.
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Rapiers are Rapiers, Sabres are Sabres.
I've seen too many people call a sabre a "Rapier" - they are not the same thing, and barely look alike.
Also, as for the "flimsy" and unmanly... compared to a Norse Broadsword or a Scottish Claymore, then, yes, the Rapier is "flimsy and unmanly".
If a Katana loses to a Longsword in a test to see what sword will break what, and a Katana thoroughly bisects the Rapier, it's a foregone conclusion that Longsword > Rapier as far as total power is concerned.
Add to it that the Rapier is associated with the French, who're just about the flimsiest and "unmanly" culture to ever walk the face of the earth, and it becomes obvious that the Rapier would get the "baby-sword" treatment, especially versus things like a Greatsword.
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A rapier is any sort of "dress sword." The original form was a pointy shortsword; as time went one, it got steadily pointer and longer. At some point, an alternative weapon, the estoc, was created, which was a stabbing only weapon. During the "high fencing era" of the 18th century, the rapier and estoc began to merge, overlap, and converge again without a strong distinction made between the weapons (though some fencing masters had strong opinions). The epee is a sport weapon derived from a late-era rapier influenced by estoc fighting techniques.
The shortsword, "longsword" (actually an arming sword), bastard sword (the actual longsword), rapier, and katana are all pieces of steel that weigh between 2 and 3 lbs and will comfortably penetrate a human ribcage. Many cinematic "swords" are actually rapiers with simplified, sword-style hilts.
The main difference between a rapier and an arming sword is that it has a very narrow point; it has a protective hilt that does not assume the use of any gauntlet heavier than leather; with considerable variation, it can be assumed that about 1/3 to 2/3 of the end of the blade has a sharp edge, though they lack a visible ricasso. Anything too short to reach the ground when pointed at rest is probably a "smallsword," which for our purposes is a shortsword but looks like a fencing sword. Same for "side-swords."
The cut-and-thrust rapier was a prominent weapon at one point. Depending on your interpretation, it could be considered a late-era arming sword or a transitional, hybrid form leading to and diverging from the true rapier. In game terms, if it's used significantly to slash, and especially if it is intended for use by cavalry, it's probably a longsword.
"Rapier" is a German word used to refer to "foreign" Italian, french, and English style fencing weapons. It probably comes from the phrase "dress sword" (robes-epee, or something along those lines). It's a 19th century term. Ultimately, the term epee comes from the Latin spatha.
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Add to it that the Rapier is associated with the French, who're just about the flimsiest and "unmanly" culture to ever walk the face of the earth, and it becomes obvious that the Rapier would get the "baby-sword" treatment, especially versus things like a Greatsword.
Rapiers and greatswords were contemporary weapons. Breaking a 2 lb. rapier with a 5 lb. greatsword would be an impressive feat, especially as both swords were built with some flex and were expected to experience some blade-to-blade contact. If you were going to break a rapier, you would do it the same way you would a greatsword: by stomping on it.
Incidentally, this is the ancestor of the rapier:
Espada ropera "Dress spatha (sword)"
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Add to it that the Rapier is associated with the French, who're just about the flimsiest and "unmanly" culture to ever walk the face of the earth, and it becomes obvious that the Rapier would get the "baby-sword" treatment, especially versus things like a Greatsword.
Is that so much the French or the French nobility? I mean, the French kings were fairly famous for being overly extravagant (to the point that they were famously executed).
All I am saying is that the French continually picked fights with England and Germany over centuries, and fairly much kept the status quo. They were in a century of conflict with England, and they had one of the more famous conquerors in the world (although he got an odd reputation for being small and weak due to the fact that he always stood next to guards that were more akin to brick walls).
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Add to it that the Rapier is associated with the French, who're just about the flimsiest and "unmanly" culture to ever walk the face of the earth, and it becomes obvious that the Rapier would get the "baby-sword" treatment, especially versus things like a Greatsword.
The French being the 'unmanliest' culture to ever walk the face of the earth is very much a twentieth century invention. Prior to the First World War they were almost the scourge of Europe, as lemeres points out above me, they were getting 'stuck in' with at least one of their neighbors just about every generation.
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Anyway, the word "rapier" is German.
Papenheim, Munich and English rapiers say hi. Cut and thrust blades are/ where a thing, widening the base slightly makes a huge difference. Rapiers were about the same weight as arming swords (what dnd has always called long swords for...reasons) and traded cutting power for reach, some more than others, but with that weight and the added leverage of the length you need to be built like popeye to wield one effectively, especially with an off hand parry dagger as was common. But HEMA nerd doesn't really help with RPGs, they abstract things and sometimes throw things out the window entirely to make the game flow.PF doesn't allow longswords to pierce either. You're overthinking it.
Also, historical rapiers may have a sharpened edge and can cut a bit, but the cross-section shape of the blade was more of a diamond and really only supported thrusting attacks and couldn't really cut as deeply as other cut-designed swords.
I have always wondered whether or not the world would be different if D&D used the proper names for weapons.
I've always considered using the proper names for my campaign setting or else just reskinning literally everything save for the most basic of simple weapons.
Anyway, the word "rapier" is German.not quite, it is a French word (rapiere) used by the German sword-teachers to describe a sword that a Frenchman would use the word epee to describe.
Rapier, sans "e," is a German word.
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I have always wondered whether or not the world would be different if D&D used the proper names for weapons.
I can assure you, it would make not a whit of difference to the world, and would barely matter to most players.
Just because they're not the foppish things used in modern fencing doesn't make them not raipiers
Exactly that would make them rapiers. Because those foppish things are foils and epees. And that was my point.
And don't get me wrong a foil or epee with a sharp point can be very much deadly, even with protective clothing on. They just don't look very intimidating.
I've done some epee fencing as a teen and even with the protection worn and the blunt points my bruises used to scare my doctor when she saw them.
But never mind. I thought there might be some kind of agreement about the rapier as is about the longsword (that it's really a armiger sword). But it seems it's not and some really picture rapiers, others picture smallswords, foils or epees. So it might be best to treat it as a category of "swords made for thrusting."
(...)it might be best to treat it as a category of "swords made for thrusting."
I tend to treat most Pathfinder weapons like this. :)
If a character wants to reflavor his longsword as a katana or broad sword or whatever else tickles his fancy, I'm perfectly OK with that.
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Ooh, another argument about historical accuracy in weaponry.
Big rapiers, small rapiers, longswords, shortswords...does scythe matter in this discussion?
(...)it might be best to treat it as a category of "swords made for thrusting."I tend to treat most Pathfinder weapons like this. :)
If a character wants to reflavor his longsword as a katana or broad sword or whatever else tickles his fancy, I'm perfectly OK with that.
I still question why the katana is a separate thing from scimitars (Which work well to represent '1 and 1/2 handed curved swords').
While noting the Japanese sword had a compromise in its curve for some stabbing power, Richard Burton did not hesitate to classify a katana as a scimitar. Older weapons, like the tachi, are scimitars in every respect.
If a Katana loses to a Longsword in a test to see what sword will break what, and a Katana thoroughly bisects the Rapier, it's a foregone conclusion that Longsword > Rapier as far as total power is concerned.Add to it that the Rapier is associated with the French, who're just about the flimsiest and "unmanly" culture to ever walk the face of the earth, and it becomes obvious that the Rapier would get the "baby-sword" treatment, especially versus things like a Greatsword.
Poe'sLaw?
That's the only excuse for this...
Anyways, my rapier is oddly weighted for stop thrusts and heavy parries. The balance is about a full six inches to the front of furniture.
This tends to only be a problem if you don't keep it on point, and lends strength to the parry and thrust. I need a lot less power to deflect (because the forte is so far forward) and to parry my thrusts tends to take a lot more effort than people are expecting allowing blows to power through easily.
I would not recommend this set up for the 'average' swordsman though.