| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
My favourite useless spell was from 1e, though it made it into 2e almost unchanged: Affect Normal Fires. With a feeble range, feeble area of effect and feeble duration, it made a fire (or in 2e, multiple fires) brighter or dimmer. Not hotter or colder. I have no idea what it was meant to be used for.
I thought it sucked?Now it's so good that GMs will ban it?
Most of the effects are terrible. I didn't say the entire spell and every effect was. The difference in value between 'ignoring difficult terrain for 1 round, usable once' and '5 days of +2 attack and +2 damage that stack with most magical enhancements' is so vast that yes, I think many GM's would ban it. +2's for 5 days make it THE best buff in the early game, far better than any other 1st level spell. For comparison: Divine Favor has range - personal and only lasts 1 minute; Magic Weapon only works on a single weapon with half the effect and lasts 1 min/level. Too powerful can make a spell just as bad as too weak, and Ceremony delivers on both accounts. Paizo seems to agree, in fact, as it is banned in PFS.
"Pathfinder Player Companion: Quests & Campaigns
Equipment: all magic items on pages 30-31 are legal except banner of tactical command, lesser banner of tactical command, diadem of inspiring rule, and horn of plenty; Feats: Expert Trainer is legal; Spells: detect relations is legal; Traits: all traits on pages 18-21 are legal."
In the Quests and Campaigns book, only Detect Relations is legal, which means Ceremony is not.
Again, I'd like to reiterate that it may be a good spell for Clerics or Warpriests, but seems horrible for Oracles, and even if you were a Cleric or Warpriest, you'd have to plan ahead and pick good domains for this one spell, potentially messing up other plans for the character. I won't say it's useless, but I stand firm in my belief that Ceremony is a bad spell and, as written, shouldn't be used by PC's.
Arcane Cannon (Ultimate Combat)... at least for one of its aspects:
The cannon is treated as a conductive weapon... which is by itself pretty useless. Since it's an arcane spell, there aren't much options to it.
Bloodlines are weak, school powers are weak... and no, it doesn't act like the magus' spellstrike... despite being released in Ultimate Combat, which is after Ultimate Magic.
So yeah, Arcane Cannon isn't a bad spell... but its secondary ability is worthless.
Or you use it with siege engines. They cannot be fired every turn anyway.True Strike is a very awkward spell to use. It basically limits you to making one attack every other round, it only affects the first attack made, and it is a personal spell on the spell list of someone who can often avoid making attack rolls entirely.
Until you can make it quickened... Then it becomes something that is quite useful.
Or you combine Truestrike with reach tactics for one of the many gish classes that get the spell, in which case you can often make a truestrike attack every turn.
Also, while it's easy to scorn guidance, I've seen it save people with that crucial +1 at the crucial moment. It should be cast before a suspected inclement combat, not once combat has begun.
Even on a siege engine, most wizards have spells with more range and accuracy than a siege engine.
Overall, you guys are kinda making my point for me. On a straight level 1-8 wizard/sorcerer, true strike is pretty useless. It only becomes useful when...
A. You can quicken it or you cast spells while attacking like the Magus
B. Edge cases where action economy doesn't matter.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
That's the thing though, any wizard worth their salt is going to have quicken later on. So True Strike isn't useless.
This is like the other guy saying Haste is useless. Yes, I suppose when you wanna run away, retreat is better. When you use a spell for what it's meant to do, though, it usually works well. This is a thread for spells that don't.
Or you use it with siege engines. They cannot be fired every turn anyway.
We've suggested this to our rogue player in Skull and Shackles. She's the primary artillerist. If she takes a level of sorcerer with true strike, she could cast it on turns while her crew reloads the engine, then fire it with her +20 mod on the next turn.
B. Edge cases where action economy doesn't matter.
Whether something is an edge case or not often depends on the campaign. If you're just skirmishing in dungeons, true strike may be less useful than if you're adventuring in the wilderness where long distance attacks and concealment may be more of a factor.
That's the thing though, any wizard worth their salt is going to have quicken later on. So True Strike isn't useless.
This is like the other guy saying Haste is useless. Yes, I suppose when you wanna run away, retreat is better. When you use a spell for what it's meant to do, though, it usually works well. This is a thread for spells that don't.
Which is why I specifically said level 1-8, because level 9 is usually the earliest that a wizard will be able to quicken a true strike.
I think in order for a spell to qualify as "most worthless" it shouldn't have any circumstances where it's useful, or requires circumstances that are so contrived that they might as well not exist.
I'd say that True Strike's position of "useful for some builds/circumstances, but not for others" is actually a pretty good balance point for a spell to have.
I think in order for a spell to qualify as "most worthless" it shouldn't have any circumstances where it's useful, or requires circumstances that are so contrived that they might as well not exist.
I'd say that True Strike's position of "useful for some builds/circumstances, but not for others" is actually a pretty good balance point for a spell to have.
I agree, I am just stating that thinking that True Strike is worthless is not really a sign of stupidity, but rather a sign that the player has limited experience. It has a lot of useful cases, but if all you have ever played is wizards in low level campaigns, then you could be forgiven for thinking it is useless.
I think in order for a spell to qualify as "most worthless" it shouldn't have any circumstances where it's useful, or requires circumstances that are so contrived that they might as well not exist.
I'd say that True Strike's position of "useful for some builds/circumstances, but not for others" is actually a pretty good balance point for a spell to have.
That's a pretty high bar to qualify as worthless. Unless the spell is just plain poorly written, there will always be some use for it somewhere that even if rare, don't necessarily require a lot of effort to contrive. There are, on the other hand, a lot of spells that are functionally worthless in that they do work and they do what they are designed to do well enough, but the effort and cost involved in casting the spell versus finding some other solution makes them not worth the effort in most circumstances. Most of the spells in this thread easily fall into this category, which to me is a far more reasonable category to be considering. Badly written spells are just badly written spells and aren't worth talking about beyond the initial mention of them.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm still with the zone of truth folks.
Because of its level, its DC is really, really low (making one wish for the days back where spells' saves were just modifiers (like Save for wands -2).
I imagine it might be useful for dealing with infants or dogs though. I mean, like..
Inquisitor: Rover, did you eat my salted pork.
Dog: *looks like a dog, who can't talk*
Inquisitor: Damnit, even in this, this spell fails!
No wait, not useful there either.
So we're looking at a DC 12+modifier spell, that prevents someone from being untruthful but at the same time offers no compulsion to say the truth. And even then its 'deliberate intentional' lies.
And the subject knows he's under the compulsion.
Alternatively, they could just clam up for like 20minutes and bam, spell times out. Interrogations usually take hours.
So flaws...
1.) Its easy to beat the save. (About a 50-50 for like a 5th level character).
2.) Duration is too short for it to accomplish its goal.
3.) It doesn't compel information, just prevents intentional falsehoods.
4.) Subject is aware of the compulsion, so its not like you can trip him up.
5.) This is a second level cleric spell (who has better stuff) and 2nd level paladin spell (who needs to spend slots on better stuff).
Only way it could be worse is if it had a costly material component.
Attuning your friends to this symbol doesn't help them.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Mind fog has always bothered me, since it's meant to penalize Will saves, and yet requires a Will save to function properly. Therefore, casting it to lower a Will save so you can then hit them with a Will save effect is self-defeating.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
My go to for useless spells used to be Crafter's Fortune, but then someone pointed out the synergy it has if you can summon Pugwampi Gremlins (via the really poor Summoner archetype or from the feat Summon Evil Monster). Yay only having use due to a completely unexpected rules interaction!
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
A few useful spells can become useless depending on the packaging.
Scroll of Darkvision: If you need the spell, you can't read the scroll..
(anything) of Featherfall: If you need the spell and you don't have it known spontaneously or prepared, you can't get it off in time...
In the context of PFS, the Planar Ally series joins the ranks of spells not worth casting.
|
|
I still vote zone of truth, but I nominate Symbol of Striking for a runner up prize.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/spells/symbolOfStriking.h tml#symbol-of-striking
+10 minute casting time.
+It goes away after making a number of AoOs equal to your level (So we're looking at like 10 or so)
+ 300+gp cost (a masterwork weapon is a required component).
+ Unlike a lot of symbol spells, cannot be made permanent, unless this gets grandfathered in by its 'works just like symbol of death' bit.
This spell requires a lot, a lot of forethought.
The only minorly feasible use I can think of is to put it on a door (where it'd act as a short-term guard against lock picking and smashing).
Although I admit the idea of a trap getting to make AoOs against someone trying to disarm it is somewhat funny. I don't think /opening a door/ in and of itself allows for AoOs though.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Symbol of Mirroring could be useful for dealing with ranged enemies at range. Anyone found much use for the Bleed cantrip?
|
5.) This is a second level cleric spell (who has better stuff) and 2nd level paladin spell (who needs to spend slots on better stuff).
Only way it could be worse is if it had a costly material component.
Or if your playing with a DM who doesn't bother to read it and lets things fly. :)
However, I'd actually say the Paladin might be better at this than the Cleric, or anyone else really, just for the fact that they might actually have a decent DC.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Mind fog has always bothered me, since it's meant to penalize Will saves, and yet requires a Will save to function properly. Therefore, casting it to lower a Will save so you can then hit them with a Will save effect is self-defeating.
It's good to cast on a crowd and then select failures for single target save or dies.
The use depends on whether or not you know who fails.
cure light wounds, you are generally better off getting it on a wand because it just isn't worth a 1st level spell slot when most of the classes that have it generally have better things to do with 1st level spell slots.
1d8+5 for a 1st level slot isn't much better than 1d8+1 from a charge of a 1st level wand. essentially, you are blowing a more valuable combat resource for an extra 4 HP one time and to save 15GP.
you are better off using that 1st level slot on entropic shield, obscuring mist, charm person or a similar spell that could either proactively mitigate damage or make an enemy surrender for a bit.
Mind fog has always bothered me, since it's meant to penalize Will saves, and yet requires a Will save to function properly. Therefore, casting it to lower a Will save so you can then hit them with a Will save effect is self-defeating.It's good to cast on a crowd and then select failures for single target save or dies.
The use depends on whether or not you know who fails.
Except how do you know which one passed and which one's failed without metagaming?
If I recall correctly, you can only "sense" it when it is a targeted effect without any obvious visual cues, which mind fog is not.
I agree that most of the spells being listed are actually quite useful at least in the right situations. Even Mind Fog can be used to good effect if it is cast before combat starts, and it has a 30 minute duration.
For instance, if Evil Evan learns that the PCs are approaching his lair he could cast Mind Fog in the antechamber, wait for the PCs to stumble into it, and then have his mooks open the door so he can attack the PCs with some other Will saves. Besides forcing an extra saving throw the Mind Fog affects all of the PCs whereas the SoL spells might hit them one at a time. Anybody who failed the first save is very likely to fail the second save. Casting a single target SoL spell on each PC twice would take a lot longer than letting them walk into Mind Fog and then spamming SoL at them. I mean, it isn't great, but I ended up thinking about reasonable ways to use it after seeing it in a module and thinking, "Man, that's utterly useless!"
Also - Fireball is the greatest spell of all time!!!
Mind fog has always bothered me, since it's meant to penalize Will saves, and yet requires a Will save to function properly. Therefore, casting it to lower a Will save so you can then hit them with a Will save effect is self-defeating.It's good to cast on a crowd and then select failures for single target save or dies.
The use depends on whether or not you know who fails.
Except how do you know which one passed and which one's failed without metagaming?
If I recall correctly, you can only "sense" it when it is a targeted effect without any obvious visual cues, which mind fog is not.
It is not very clear cut.
You could also use it to soften up a crowd for lower DC area spells. Like from a scroll.
Mind fog has always bothered me, since it's meant to penalize Will saves, and yet requires a Will save to function properly. Therefore, casting it to lower a Will save so you can then hit them with a Will save effect is self-defeating.It's good to cast on a crowd and then select failures for single target save or dies.
The use depends on whether or not you know who fails.
Except how do you know which one passed and which one's failed without metagaming?
If I recall correctly, you can only "sense" it when it is a targeted effect without any obvious visual cues, which mind fog is not.
It is not very clear cut.
You could also use it to soften up a crowd for lower DC area spells. Like from a scroll.
In this case I would say a lot depends on how you visualize it all. While there's no RAW either way, I could certainly see someone arguing that a person affected by mind fog would have some visible indications like glazed eyes or generally looking less aware of their surroundings.
|
|
My go to for useless spells used to be Crafter's Fortune, but then someone pointed out the synergy it has if you can summon Pugwampi Gremlins (via the really poor Summoner archetype or from the feat Summon Evil Monster). Yay only having use due to a completely unexpected rules interaction!
Um, Crafter's fortune is an AMAZING spell if your character actually wants to craft things. Sure, crafting sucks mechanically but it can be lots of roleplaying fun and sometimes even mechanically useful.
Its not all about how useful a spell is in combat.
My go to for useless spells used to be Crafter's Fortune, but then someone pointed out the synergy it has if you can summon Pugwampi Gremlins (via the really poor Summoner archetype or from the feat Summon Evil Monster). Yay only having use due to a completely unexpected rules interaction!Um, Crafter's fortune is an AMAZING spell if your character actually wants to craft things. Sure, crafting sucks mechanically but it can be lots of roleplaying fun and sometimes even mechanically useful.
Its not all about how useful a spell is in combat.
All magical crafting types can use Spellcraft, a highly useful skill anyway, so Craft is mostly worthless as it is mostly for mundane items (though some alchemical items can be kinda cool). Per the actual rules for the skill Craft, it takes such a long time to make anything that you may as well just buy whatever it was and be done with it. You're really not saving all that much anyway as it's not like the stuff you make with Craft is super expensive anyway... and craft DCs aren't exactly hard to make anyway as you can take 10 so unless you're a really unskilled crafter, the spell isn't really "amazing." If it at least gave some kind of scaling bonus then I'd say you would have more of a point, as though it would be mostly unnecessary, you could probably have fun with at high level with a magical +30 to craft (like Acute Senses gives for Perception, a much more useful skill!).
|
|
cure light wounds, you are generally better off getting it on a wand because it just isn't worth a 1st level spell slot ...
I must respectfully and emphatically disagree with you on this one. While one should certainly get Cure Light Wounds on a wand, there are good reasons to prepare it. Some are:
* Better action economy. Drawing a wand will be either a Move or Swift action and requires a free hand. Sometimes there are better uses for those actions. For example, the right build could use those two actions to cast two more spells, starting at 1st level.
* Various feats and class abilities only work on a spell you cast, not on a wand. For example, the Life Oracle has revelations that only apply when they cast the spell. For another example, a familiar can deliver a spell cast by its master, but not a spell from a wand. A Witch has both a familiar and the Cure Light Wounds spell.
* Slightly more HP healed past level 1. Only 4 extra HP, but if you are having to do In Combat Healing then someone already messed up and every HP counts.
* Free, vs. nominal 15 gp cost of a wand charge.
* Renewed daily
That said, I totally agree with you that there are usually better 1st level spells to prepare.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It is just worse than normal alarm and the same spell level.
Normal alarm is triggered from invisible creatures too and has a langer duration.
cure light wounds, you are generally better off getting it on a wand because it just isn't worth a 1st level spell slot ...I must respectfully and emphatically disagree with you on this one. While one should certainly get Cure Light Wounds on a wand, there are good reasons to prepare it. Some are:
* Better action economy. Drawing a wand will be either a Move or Swift action and requires a free hand. Sometimes there are better uses for those actions. For example, the right build could use those two actions to cast two more spells, starting at 1st level.
* Various feats and class abilities only work on a spell you cast, not on a wand. For example, the Life Oracle has revelations that only apply when they cast the spell. For another example, a familiar can deliver a spell cast by its master, but not a spell from a wand. A Witch has both a familiar and the Cure Light Wounds spell.
* Slightly more HP healed past level 1. Only 4 extra HP, but if you are having to do In Combat Healing then someone already messed up and every HP counts.
* Free, vs. nominal 15 gp cost of a wand charge.
* Renewed daily
That said, I totally agree with you that there are usually better 1st level spells to prepare.
generally, healing an ally in combat simply buys the enemy an extra turn to take both of you down, or if used on a downed ally, an attack of opportunity the moment the downed ally gets up to negate the penalty to hit for being prone, which generally knocks them back down. and even with heal, you are better off saving healing for after combat when you know you can bring up the character without knowing the spell slot is being negated
heal, might be a good in combat healing spell, and so might breath of life, but i don't see much use for cure light wounds in combat when enemy average DPR is usually twice or more the average healing of a level appropriate cure spell. plus, if the move action is a problem, you can draw the wand as part of a move action, or use quick draw, because a spell eats up the use of a hand too, and because the 15 GP for a wand charge is negligible out of combat
|
|
Ever cast Cure Light Wounds through your familiar before combat? Your familiar then carefully holds the charge. That way, your familiar can do in combat healing.
@Auren "Rin" Cloudstrider: I guess we play very different styles of games. I consider 10th level 'near retirement', so heal doesn't get much action. Magda has prepared Breath of Life for her past 12 adventures, and has yet to cast it to save someone from death. In low level play Cure Light Wounds is a very common in-combat healing spell, and sometimes a very useful one.
Theoretically, In Combat Healing is almost always a bad idea. In practice some In Combat Healing is often wise and sometimes vital. Practice trumps theory.
Ever cast Cure Light Wounds through your familiar before combat? Your familiar then carefully holds the charge. That way, your familiar can do in combat healing.
@Auren "Rin" Cloudstrider: I guess we play very different styles of games. I consider 10th level 'near retirement', so heal doesn't get much action. Magda has prepared Breath of Life for her past 12 adventures, and has yet to cast it to save someone from death. In low level play Cure Light Wounds is a very common in-combat healing spell, and sometimes a very useful one.
Theoretically, In Combat Healing is almost always a bad idea. In practice some In Combat Healing is often wise and sometimes vital. Practice trumps theory.
we used to start at 1st level and retire sometime between 14th and 16th level depending on the adventure. we would spend long periods between 6th and 12th and even if we didn't have the heal spell the whole time, we usually acquired scrolls of it for emergencies and the levels 1-5 we would blaze through, but now, we play savage worlds and have for quite a while. generally, in combat healing in savage worlds isn't possible without some kind of setting specific gear or an arcane background that the setting doesn't disallow
Invisibility Alarm can be used to ward against ONLY invisible creatures, which makes it not entirely worthless.
One interesting use though is that you could use it as the trigger for magical traps instead of a normal alarm. As long as you don't employ anyone naturally invisible you can set it ANYWHERE (even the one hallway in and out) and any scout with Invisibility will set it off. Even though evasion will protect (most) scouts, the alarm still goes off.
Ah but it only last 10 minutes per level.
Making it useful at all requires another spell (permanency)
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
MY PC would have died last night without in combat healing. Were were playing up-tier Silver Mount Collection and I got hit by a VERY hard robot and was brought down from 13 to -13 in one hit. My CON is 14. If someone hadn't hit me with the CLW right then, I would have been dead. As it was, we had still one PC death from that encounter.
There is absolutely a time for in-combat healing - when someone will die without it. Unfortunately, when you get to that time, there is a good chance someone is still going to die anyway.
|
|
MY PC would have died last night without in combat healing. Were were playing up-tier Silver Mount Collection and I got hit by a VERY hard robot and was brought down from 13 to -13 in one hit. My CON is 14. If someone hadn't hit me with the CLW right then, I would have been dead. As it was, we had still one PC death from that encounter.
There is absolutely a time for in-combat healing - when someone will die without it. Unfortunately, when you get to that time, there is a good chance someone is still going to die anyway.
In large part in-combat healing gets a bad rap because so many people build glass cannons. High offense / low defense. Not an inherently bad thing - but it certainly makes combat healing less useful.
If the entire group has better defense, even at the expense of offense, it makes combat healing more valuable. After all, that big beastie will miss a good chunk of the time, so you actually can 'catch up'.
One problem is that it's generally an 'all or nothing' for the whole group. As soon as you have one true 'glass cannon' (especially in melee) - anyone who isn't high offense isn't pulling their weight as the bad guy needs to drop before your group's glass cannon does.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
There's rarely a need for a cleric to memorize cure light wounds (unless he's a neutral who channels negative) as they can just switch out for it though.
In combat healing is, in my experience suboptimal, but so is taking an arrow through the throat or being lit on fire and suplexed down a spike pit by a lava child luchadore.
Suboptimal is one thing. When you look at the spell and say 'this spell really doesn't do what its meant to do at all,' or 'what use does this spell even have?' its different.
The ones I mentioned zone of truth and symbol of striking are like that.
I have to concoct a situation where symbol of striking is useful (where do you need AoOs on a static basis? And it does damage equivalent to a weapon strike. Can't I just build a pressure plate trap with a normal axe instead of expending a spell and a 300gp+ masterwork item on it? Where can I put them that they can't just take a half step to the right to avoid? And it resets for 10minutes after using up my level in AoOs? Why do I want AoOs instead of something bigger for the spell level like a fireball?)
Zone of truth's flaws are obvious.
Cure Light Wounds...heals light wounds. Its like getting hit by an anti-longsword strike. In fact a third level caster of cure light wounds can basically heal back the equal of getting hit by a longsword by a str 16 dude. Its also a useful /attack/ spell in desperate times against the undead. Its a very useful spell.
|
Contributor
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
In regards to the earlier discussion about Mirror Polish: that spell actually excited me more than most of the others in the ACG, since it felt very flavorful... the sort of "utility" spell that I could see someone creating for a reason other than "this will make me a more efficient adventurer". I guess what I'm describing is... verisimilitude? Maybe? It also goes along with the poster who liked Crafter's Fortune because sometimes, you want to be an Actual Crafter(TM). It's a spell that says, "not all spells in the entirety of existence are for adventurers and the people who oppose them". I will freely admit being in the minority who enjoys seeing those appear, though. :D
P.S. I REALLY want to hear the story behind that lava child luchadore example!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
have we all forgotten about BLINK? Duplicates the effects of other third level and lower spells, except it gives you a 20% to waste your spells, 50% to NOT go through that wall you just tried going through, also take a d6 damage for your troubles.
I have NEVER seen a use for this spell that couldn't be accomplished one way or another with another spell that has no chance of failure.
In pathfinder, in 3.5 it allowed sneak attack and thus it or the ring of it was awesome.
Speaking of that: Grease was awesomer in 3.5 as it denied dex too.
|
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
|
Pretty much any d6/level damage spell isn't very good anymore unless you augment it with metamagic or class features. Hp have scaled way up since the days of 1e but the direct damage spells have remained the same or even gotten weaker.
Fireball and lightning bolt were different beasts when there was no cap on the number of dice. A 10th level magic-user averaged 25 hp, and did the same 10d6 we know and love. An 18th level magic-user averaged 34.5 hp, and did 18d6(average 63). That guy had a good chance of dying even if he made the save(cause 0 hp = dead in 1e). Heck the maximum possible hp for Mr. archmage in 1e was 73, if he had a 16+ Con and rolled max on every die(11d4+22con+7). There were deities with less than 100 hp.
Direct damage spells used to be serious business and fight winners all by themselves.