Why (some among) US police behave so violently?


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Liberty's Edge

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thejeff wrote:
And seriously, reread Officer Wilson's description of his encounter with Mike Brown and tell me he's not either hallucinating or drawing on the old racist stereotypes of the giant scary Negro:

If you have ever been violently assaulted then I'll accept that you are the rare individual who is not traumatized by such a brutal event. But for the vast majority of people, a violent beating is not like on TV. First, any hard hit can kill or cripple. Second, it is truly terrifying no matter your training or even if you are armed. I've been violently beaten once and in other conflicts several times and I understand how Office Wilson felt: the fear, the emotions, how fast things happened. He fell back on training: if you feel your life is threatened, shoot. If a criminal flees, shoot.

Fact: Mike Brown roughed up a shopkeeper and robbed him (video evidence and eyewitness). Fact: Officer Wilson was punched by Mike Brown (photo evidence and eyewitness). Officer Wilson was attacked in his car by Mike Brown (DNA evidence and eyewitness). Fact: after the above Officer Wilson shot Mike Brown.

What is amazing to me is that Mike Brown punched a police officer and fought him inside his squad car. Who does that?

Oh yes that's right, a criminal.

I for one am glad that Officer Wilson survived such a violent and deadly encounter. I hope he heals mentally and moves on with the life he preserved (his own).

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
thejeff wrote:
Cameras on police also help to protect them against false accusations of abuse and brutality. If, for example, Darren Wilson's version of his encounter with Brown is true and he had had a camera on, then both Brown's initial attack on him and his final charge at him would have been captured on film and there would have been little to no controversy over it.

A grand jury decided what Officer Wilson said is true. I really do not know any better or more civilized way to determine if a police officer was right or wrong than an impartial jury.

Of course, the very people who claim Officer Wilson is wrong then go and burn down a Little Caesars. Because that shop owner did what exactly? So criminals are mad that a criminal was shot and they react with criminal actions to show how criminal police officers are. It makes less than no sense.

Liberty's Edge

Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
Sometimes you get shot not responding fast enough. (Your reaction time is less than 1+1/2 seconds I hope.)

dying doing their duty:

Ingham County Sheriff's Office Michigan ~ December 7, 2014
Navajo Division of Public Safety Tribal Police ~ November 30, 2014
San Juan Police Department Puerto Rico ~ November 26, 2014
Elmore County Sheriff's Office Alabama ~ November 23, 2014
Leon County Sheriff's Office Florida ~ November 22, 2014

City of Detroit:
Line of Duty Deaths: 229
Aircraft accident: 3
Assault: 4
Automobile accident: 12
Drowned: 1
Duty related illness: 2
Electrocuted: 1
Gunfire: 150
Gunfire (Accidental): 13
Heart attack: 4
Heat exhaustion: 1
Motorcycle accident: 8
Stabbed: 1
Struck by streetcar: 2
Struck by train: 1
Struck by vehicle: 8
Vehicle pursuit: 10
Vehicular assault: 8

By Month
January: 25
February: 19
March: 22
April: 10
May: 18
June: 14
July: 19
August: 25
September: 14
October: 23
November: 21
December: 19

By Gender
Male: 223
Female: 6


Officer Wilson did not have prior knowledge of Mike Browns past behaviors.

You should not, ever, attack a person armed better than you are. It is unwise to fight with a police officer, but often unwise things are all we have to fall back on. Mike Brown made poor choices. Officer Wilson, could have aimed to wound, and not to kill, I hope he received this kind of training. Officer Wilson made poor choices.

Mike Brown is dead.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
Sometimes you get shot while out shopping.

Spoiler:
Detroit Police Department, MI

Fallen Officers

Police Officer Patrick E. Hill
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Saturday, October 19, 2013
Cause: Gunfire (Accidental)

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Rodney Wayne Jones
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Saturday, September 14, 2013
Cause: Duty related illness

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Robert W. Dooley
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Saturday, September 15, 2012
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Charles Edward "Chuck" Armour
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Saturday, June 11, 2011
Cause: Vehicular assault

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Brian Eric Huff
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Monday, May 3, 2010
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Kenneth Lee Daniels
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Wednesday, September 1, 2004
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Matthew E. Bowens
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Monday, February 16, 2004
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Jennifer Timathy-Ann Fettig
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Monday, February 16, 2004
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Scott T. Stewart
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Sunday, August 11, 2002
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Michael T. Scanlon
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Tuesday, February 12, 2002
Cause: Stabbed

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Neil Keith Wells
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Wednesday, April 4, 2001
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Shynelle Marie Mason
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Friday, July 14, 2000
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Richard Daniel Scalf
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Friday, February 5, 1999
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Shawn Phillip Bandy
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Sunday, December 6, 1998
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Patrick Michael Prohm
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Tuesday, January 9, 1996
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Lindora Renee Smith
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Saturday, August 26, 1995
Cause: Vehicle pursuit

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Sergeant Earl Lavelle White
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Saturday, August 26, 1995
Cause: Automobile accident

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Jerry Foster Philpot, II
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Thursday, May 25, 1995
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Benjamin Louis Short
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Friday, March 25, 1994
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Norman E. Spruiel
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Sunday, October 3, 1993
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Richard Michael Leskie
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Monday, July 1, 1991
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Officer Bruce Williams
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Wednesday, December 5, 1990
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Officer Charles L. Pope
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Friday, October 19, 1990
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Rodney L. Bennett
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Monday, May 28, 1990
Cause: Motorcycle accident

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Sherdard Raymund Brison
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Monday, March 5, 1990
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Vikki Elaine Hubbard
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Sunday, March 12, 1989
Cause: Vehicle pursuit

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Charles E. Beasley
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Tuesday, November 22, 1988
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Lieutenant James L. Schmit
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Monday, October 17, 1988
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Frank E. Walls
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Monday, October 17, 1988
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Linda G. Smith
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Saturday, November 28, 1987
Cause: Vehicle pursuit

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Andre Barksdale
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Monday, November 2, 1987
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer John James Fitzpatrick
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Friday, October 9, 1987
Cause: Vehicular assault

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Richard L. Fortin
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Friday, June 19, 1987
Cause: Drowned

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Lieutenant Johnnie C. Shoates
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Sunday, December 7, 1986
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Freddie Lee Jackson
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Monday, October 6, 1986
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Everett Williams, Jr.
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Saturday, September 27, 1986
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Anthony C. Williams
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Sunday, July 20, 1986
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Mark Radden
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Wednesday, February 5, 1986
Cause: Gunfire (Accidental)

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Giacomo "Jack" Buffa
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Wednesday, February 5, 1986
Cause: Gunfire (Accidental)

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Sergeant Michael J. Bossuyt
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Tuesday, March 8, 1983
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer William Green
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Monday, March 29, 1982
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Frank X. Siemion
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Thursday, February 25, 1982
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Chaplain William Paris
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Wednesday, March 3, 1976
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer James B. Watts
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Saturday, March 15, 1975
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Robert John Hogue
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Saturday, December 21, 1974
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Jon A. Ryckman
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Friday, June 28, 1974
Cause: Aircraft accident

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Byron B. Soule, Jr.
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Friday, June 28, 1974
Cause: Aircraft accident

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Brendt L. Stephens
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Saturday, May 25, 1974
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Gerald A. Morrison
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Monday, March 11, 1974
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Edward Pakula, Jr.
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Wednesday, January 16, 1974
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Sergeant Leonard M. Todd
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Wednesday, January 16, 1974
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Sergeant Alvis P. Morris, Jr.
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Monday, November 12, 1973
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Robert T. Moore
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Thursday, November 8, 1973
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Harold E. Carlson
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Saturday, January 27, 1973
Cause: Gunfire (Accidental)

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Robert P. Bradford, Jr.
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Wednesday, December 27, 1972
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Sergeant Gerald James Riley
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Friday, December 8, 1972
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Gilbert T. Stocker
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Monday, July 31, 1972
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer William Schmedding
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Friday, December 31, 1971
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Matron Marta Shanaman
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Sunday, December 12, 1971
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Alonzo Marshall
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Wednesday, September 1, 1971
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Frederick D. Hunter, Jr.
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Thursday, August 26, 1971
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Ulysses Brown
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Friday, August 20, 1971
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Daniel G. Ellis
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Wednesday, February 3, 1971
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Detective Sergeant Joseph K. Siepak
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Tuesday, January 26, 1971
Cause: Automobile accident

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer William G. Wortmann
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Friday, January 15, 1971
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Danny Lee Watson
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Thursday, January 14, 1971
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Joseph M. Soulliere
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Thursday, December 3, 1970
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Glenn E. Smith
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Saturday, October 24, 1970
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer William Slappey
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Wednesday, March 11, 1970
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Richard P. Woyshner
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Saturday, January 24, 1970
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Paul E. Begin
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Saturday, October 25, 1969
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Carter Lee Wells
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Friday, May 23, 1969
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Michael J. Czapski
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Saturday, March 29, 1969
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Stanley Rapaski
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Friday, January 10, 1969
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Ricktor A. Gutowsky
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Thursday, August 15, 1968
Cause: Vehicle pursuit

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Sergeant Edward Wolski, Jr.
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Monday, August 5, 1968
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Jerome J. Olshove
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Tuesday, July 25, 1967
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer John J. Hartenstein
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Thursday, May 4, 1967
Cause: Automobile accident

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Detective William L. Bell
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Sunday, August 14, 1966
Cause: Vehicular assault

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Detective Marlyn W. Bateson
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Sunday, August 14, 1966
Cause: Vehicular assault

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Harold F. Tullke
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Saturday, December 12, 1964
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Thaddeus W. Szczesny
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Saturday, August 22, 1964
Cause: Automobile accident

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer James E. Wolframe
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Saturday, August 22, 1964
Cause: Struck by vehicle

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer John Calandro, Jr.
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Monday, August 19, 1963
Cause: Motorcycle accident

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Sergeant Selwyn C. Adams
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Saturday, March 23, 1963
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Sergeant Stanley Sech
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Sunday, February 24, 1963
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Gordon G. Schneider
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Wednesday, October 10, 1962
Cause: Automobile accident

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer James E. Meeks, Jr.
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Friday, May 20, 1960
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Ronald I. English
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Monday, July 27, 1959
Cause: Vehicle pursuit

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer John B. French
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Thursday, May 15, 1958
Cause: Motorcycle accident

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Detective Lieutenant Harry A. Thom
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Friday, February 14, 1958
Cause: Duty related illness

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Donald W. Coulter
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Saturday, January 11, 1958
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Sidney A. O'Connor
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Tuesday, January 17, 1956
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer George E. Krueger
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Saturday, August 20, 1955
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Detective Erwin W. Schink
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Thursday, March 4, 1954
Cause: Assault

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Arthur E. Meyers
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Tuesday, July 14, 1953
Cause: Motorcycle accident

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Detective Russell Blanchard
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Saturday, March 15, 1952
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Peter G. Huber
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Thursday, February 14, 1952
Cause: Assault

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Stanley J. Jerlecki
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Friday, December 14, 1951
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Stuart H. Loding
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Saturday, June 30, 1951
Cause: Heart attack

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Andreas Mellert, Jr.
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Friday, November 17, 1950
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Joseph G. Meglinske
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Tuesday, July 4, 1950
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Detective Duke Williams
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Friday, December 30, 1949
Cause: Heart attack

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer David I. Bergum
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Thursday, February 17, 1949
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Sergeant Clarence W. Bracy
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Thursday, January 20, 1949
Cause: Struck by vehicle

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Hendrick P. Groeneveld
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Friday, September 24, 1948
Cause: Gunfire (Accidental)

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Sergeant John A. Barringer
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Thursday, August 26, 1948
Cause: Automobile accident

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Henry Joseph Mach
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Sunday, December 21, 1947
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Joseph Salatowski
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Sunday, May 25, 1947
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Sergeant Alphonse H. Kemper
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Wednesday, October 10, 1945
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Leo F. Hilenski
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Tuesday, January 16, 1945
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer John E. Zeh
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Sunday, June 4, 1944
Cause: Motorcycle accident

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Lawrence A. Adam
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Thursday, July 1, 1943
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Mitchell A. Lipinski
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Sunday, June 6, 1943
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Detective Sergeant Joseph P. Husken
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Saturday, April 17, 1943
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Patrolman VanBuren Quarles
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Sunday, January 10, 1943
Cause: Assault

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer John E. Vandenberg
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Saturday, October 26, 1940
Cause: Vehicular assault

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Warren K. Raby
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Friday, June 23, 1939
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Myron Kohler
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Sunday, April 16, 1939
Cause: Automobile accident

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Seymour H. Lawler
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Saturday, March 26, 1938
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Hiram J. Reno
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Saturday, March 26, 1938
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Conrad W. Sippel
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Thursday, August 26, 1937
Cause: Motorcycle accident

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer John R. Sheridan
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Monday, August 9, 1937
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Howard A. Booth
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Friday, July 9, 1937
Cause: Electrocuted

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Andrew H. Edeen
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Sunday, June 28, 1936
Cause: Vehicle pursuit

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Frank J. Winarski
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Saturday, June 20, 1936
Cause: Vehicle pursuit

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Detective Sergeant Edward F. Bayer
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Saturday, January 18, 1936
Cause: Assault

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Louis M. Levine
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Friday, January 17, 1936
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer James C. Harrelson
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Saturday, January 11, 1936
Cause: Gunfire (Accidental)

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Frederick W. Behrend
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Wednesday, December 18, 1935
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Wayne W. Nelson
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Sunday, September 1, 1935
Cause: Struck by vehicle

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Edward C. Sampson
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Saturday, June 24, 1933
Cause: Vehicle pursuit

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Barney Fox
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Thursday, May 25, 1933
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Paul Pawlowski
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Wednesday, December 21, 1932
Cause: Struck by streetcar

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Reed Howard
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Friday, March 25, 1932
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer William F. Konkel
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Monday, January 18, 1932
Cause: Struck by vehicle

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Douglas W. Minton
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Thursday, December 31, 1931
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Wilfred F. Golla
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Saturday, October 24, 1931
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Detective Raymond Mundy
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Tuesday, October 14, 1930
Cause: Vehicle pursuit

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Detective Peter J. Sprott
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Friday, October 10, 1930
Cause: Aircraft accident

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Detective Edward J. Barney
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Thursday, August 7, 1930
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Glen E. Clark
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Sunday, May 11, 1930
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Charles C. McMillan
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Thursday, April 24, 1930
Cause: Struck by vehicle

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Dayton A. Winegar
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Saturday, March 8, 1930
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Lloyd O. Schultz
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Tuesday, November 12, 1929
Cause: Motorcycle accident

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer David E. Coy
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Thursday, October 17, 1929
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer William W. Spencer
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Monday, August 5, 1929
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Arthur L. Pascolini
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Tuesday, July 2, 1929
Cause: Gunfire (Accidental)

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Detective Lieutenant Benjamin F. Smith
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Sunday, February 17, 1929
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Detective Clarence L. Stadler
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Saturday, February 16, 1929
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Ulric A. Johnston
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Saturday, November 10, 1928
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Clarence J. Hans
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Sunday, October 28, 1928
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Peter Helko
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Monday, September 24, 1928
Cause: Vehicle pursuit

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Sergeant George Barstad
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Monday, June 25, 1928
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Fred A. Brumm
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Saturday, April 7, 1928
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Glenn R. Hunter
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Thursday, January 12, 1928
Cause: Gunfire (Accidental)

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Henry G. Puffer
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Tuesday, November 8, 1927
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer William F. Frahm
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Friday, September 30, 1927
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Merlin Ray
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Sunday, July 17, 1927
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer David G. Snell
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Wednesday, March 16, 1927
Cause: Vehicular assault

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Stacey C. Mizner
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Saturday, January 29, 1927
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Sergeant Edward D. Perrin
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Saturday, November 27, 1926
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Valentine M. Lukowiak
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Sunday, November 14, 1926
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Frank W. Reynolds
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Wednesday, September 15, 1926
Cause: Automobile accident

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Earl J. Kobinski
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Friday, July 9, 1926
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Walter L. Darsee
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Friday, June 4, 1926
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Boyd Badour
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Sunday, April 11, 1926
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Raymond Vollertsen
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Tuesday, January 26, 1926
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Andrew Rusinko
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Monday, January 11, 1926
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Herman M. Jolly
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Sunday, November 8, 1925
Cause: Gunfire (Accidental)

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer William E. Wagner
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Thursday, November 5, 1925
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Simeon D. Martin
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Tuesday, September 22, 1925
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Frank Marcinkowski
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Monday, September 7, 1925
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer William F. Hackenbruch
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Monday, July 6, 1925
Cause: Vehicular assault

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Casimir B. Kaliszewski
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Saturday, June 13, 1925
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Elmer M. Cox
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Tuesday, May 5, 1925
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Phelim McDonough
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Wednesday, February 18, 1925
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Fred V. Breslin
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Saturday, October 25, 1924
Cause: Automobile accident

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Detective Frank E. Hage
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Sunday, August 17, 1924
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer William G. Ashworth
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Monday, August 4, 1924
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Albert J. Fink
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Wednesday, April 9, 1924
Cause: Automobile accident

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer William M. Gratton
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Saturday, December 15, 1923
Cause: Automobile accident

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Detective Lieutenant John J. Heffron
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Thursday, October 11, 1923
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Stephen Villaire
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Sunday, September 23, 1923
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Sergeant Thomas J. Collins
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Friday, August 3, 1923
Cause: Automobile accident

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Sergeant Allan O. Linsday
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Thursday, May 3, 1923
Cause: Gunfire

Greenfield Township Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Edward Cerveny
Greenfield Township Police Department
EOW: Tuesday, April 24, 1923
Cause: Struck by vehicle

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Isaac Kruka
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Wednesday, February 7, 1923
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Detective Sergeant Daniel J. Coughlin
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Thursday, January 4, 1923
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Detective Sergeant Charles McKenna
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Saturday, October 28, 1922
Cause: Gunfire (Accidental)

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Otto A. Balk
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Tuesday, November 1, 1921
Cause: Motorcycle accident

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Herbert J. Bischoff
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Sunday, March 13, 1921
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Detective Lieutenant David Morris
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Wednesday, February 2, 1921
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Detective Lieutenant Philip Ellenstein
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Monday, January 31, 1921
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Arthur R. Huhnke
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Monday, November 8, 1920
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Lieutenant Peter F. McGuigan
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Saturday, October 23, 1920
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer William F. Wollborg
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Thursday, August 5, 1920
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Harold G. Roughley
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Monday, May 5, 1919
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Gordon R. Davis
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Monday, July 15, 1918
Cause: Gunfire (Accidental)

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Detective Louis Bomka
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Tuesday, May 14, 1918
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Elmer M. Powers
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Thursday, April 25, 1918
Cause: Vehicular assault

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Henry G. Angell
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Tuesday, December 4, 1917
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Norman F. Towler
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Wednesday, October 17, 1917
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Richard H. Diamond
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Saturday, August 18, 1917
Cause: Gunfire (Accidental)

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Detective Sergeant Emmanuel Roggers
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Tuesday, July 24, 1917
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Lieutenant Samuel C. Marquardt
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Tuesday, May 15, 1917
Cause: Struck by train

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Charles W. Sieger
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Wednesday, April 11, 1917
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Emil R. Schmidt
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Tuesday, February 20, 1917
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Edward M. McLaughlin
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Monday, November 13, 1916
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Leland Alexander
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Friday, May 12, 1916
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer John Gordon
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Friday, January 2, 1914
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Thomas F. Madden
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Tuesday, December 9, 1913
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Warren K. Snow
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Wednesday, November 5, 1913
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Fred Holwedel
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Friday, August 22, 1913
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Charles W. Schoof
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Saturday, July 19, 1913
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer James M. Griffin
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Friday, March 21, 1913
Cause: Struck by vehicle

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Lloyd N. Robinson
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Saturday, July 27, 1912
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Franklin M. Smith
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Thursday, August 24, 1911
Cause: Struck by vehicle

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Henry Walpole
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Wednesday, May 17, 1911
Cause: Heart attack

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer George H. Wilson
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Wednesday, November 13, 1907
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer John F. Daley
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Thursday, November 17, 1904
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Clarence R. Cummings
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Friday, March 25, 1904
Cause: Gunfire (Accidental)

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Charles J. Stewart
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Saturday, September 16, 1899
Cause: Struck by streetcar

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Edward Shoemaker
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Tuesday, March 4, 1890
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Patrolman Albert W. Thayer
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Monday, November 26, 1888
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer Alonzo E. Bullard
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Thursday, November 29, 1883
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer George C. Kimball
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Friday, October 5, 1883
Cause: Gunfire

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer John W. Loveland
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Wednesday, February 14, 1883
Cause: Heart attack

Detroit Police Department, Michigan

Police Officer John Fillion
Detroit Police Department
EOW: Wednesday, July 24, 1878
Cause: Heat exhaustion

Read more: http://www.odmp.org/agency/1000-detroit-police-department-michigan#ixzz3LKy GM7RQ


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Hold on, let me go get a list of every single person killed by type 2 diabetes, cause that's about as relevant as the information you posted.

People die. Police officers are at greater risk of dying than most people. That is not an excuse


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Charlie D. wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Cameras on police also help to protect them against false accusations of abuse and brutality. If, for example, Darren Wilson's version of his encounter with Brown is true and he had had a camera on, then both Brown's initial attack on him and his final charge at him would have been captured on film and there would have been little to no controversy over it.
A grand jury decided what Officer Wilson said is true. I really do not know any better or more civilized way to determine if a police officer was right or wrong than an impartial jury.

No. That is either a complete misunderstanding of the nature of a grand jury or a deliberate fabrication.

A grand jury, based on the presentation of evidence by a prosecutor, was unable to agree to indict Officer Wilson on any particular charge. That's all that happened. That's all we know.

An actual impartial trial would be a good way to determine whether or not Wilson was guilty. But that's not what a grand jury is.

Of course, if there was video of the entire sequence of events, and such video agreed with Wilson's story, then there would have been no need for a grand jury and very likely no or little rioting or protest, because it would have been obvious to all that Brown had attacked and was trying to attack again when he was killed. That clear evidence would very much have been to everyone's advantage, including Darren Wilson's.


5 people marked this as a favorite.

Oh my God, wait I was wrong. Oh, God I didn't realize police officers were at such an enormous risk. Oh, my, God, they get killed just trying to be the best people they can be

Well, now that I know this, it seems obvious that police officers should be allowed to kill anybody they want to, cause, reasons.


5 people marked this as a favorite.

Police officers die in the line of duty, therefore all police shootings are justified?

Good luck with that one.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Charlie D. wrote:
thejeff wrote:
And seriously, reread Officer Wilson's description of his encounter with Mike Brown and tell me he's not either hallucinating or drawing on the old racist stereotypes of the giant scary Negro:

If you have ever been violently assaulted then I'll accept that you are the rare individual who is not traumatized by such a brutal event. But for the vast majority of people, a violent beating is not like on TV. First, any hard hit can kill or cripple. Second, it is truly terrifying no matter your training or even if you are armed. I've been violently beaten once and in other conflicts several times and I understand how Office Wilson felt: the fear, the emotions, how fast things happened. He fell back on training: if you feel your life is threatened, shoot. If a criminal flees, shoot.

Fact: Mike Brown roughed up a shopkeeper and robbed him (video evidence and eyewitness). Fact: Officer Wilson was punched by Mike Brown (photo evidence and eyewitness). Officer Wilson was attacked in his car by Mike Brown (DNA evidence and eyewitness). Fact: after the above Officer Wilson shot Mike Brown.

What is amazing to me is that Mike Brown punched a police officer and fought him inside his squad car. Who does that?

Oh yes that's right, a criminal.

I for one am glad that Officer Wilson survived such a violent and deadly encounter. I hope he heals mentally and moves on with the life he preserved (his own).

It's amazing how many black people make suicidal attacks on police officers. I guess that's just proof how crazy dangerous they are.

I could list a bunch of things said by various witnesses to the Grand Jury and call them facts too, but I'll refrain
Fact: There was a struggle at the car. DNA evidence. Conflicting witness statements as to what actually occurred.
Fact: Michael Brown was shot and killed by Officer Wilson a short time later. Only one or two witnesses agree with Officer Wilson that he was charging at that time. Several claim he was surrendering.

A trial would be a good way to determine what actually happened in a public fashion. It's a shame there won't be one.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Terquem wrote:

Hold on, let me go get a list of every single person killed by type 2 diabetes, cause that's about as relevant as the information you posted.

People die. Police officers are at greater risk of dying than most people. That is not an excuse

While you do that, I'll grab a list of civilians shot by police officers. Oh wait, I can't because they don't report them even though the law requires it. I guess police officers are criminals too. Now who do we trust?

Liberty's Edge

Terquem wrote:

Officer Wilson did not have prior knowledge of Mike Browns past behaviors.

You should not, ever, attack a person armed better than you are. It is unwise to fight with a police officer, but often unwise things are all we have to fall back on. Mike Brown made poor choices. Officer Wilson, could have aimed to wound, and not to kill, I hope he received this kind of training. Officer Wilson made poor choices.

Mike Brown is dead.

Not true. Officer Wilson testified that at first he just ordered Mike Brown off the street. Then he saw the cigars in his hand and it clicked: criminal who robbed a store as he had heard on the police radio.

Also, police officer are not trained to wound. If they shoot, they shoot to kill. It is hard enough to hit center mass in a fight, trying to hit a limb or shoulder is movie only stuff.

Engagement rules are simple for police. If your life or another person's life is threatened, shoot to kill. If a criminal is fleeing, shoot to kill.

The rules are simple because killing another human being is really difficult. You have to overcome a natural aversion to hurting another person. So training is simple and direct and is designed to keep a police officer and innocent civilians alive.

But you are correct. The criminal Mike Brown is dead. And a police officer he assaulted after he assaulted and robbed a store owner is thankfully still alive.


Officer Wilson is capable of determining a person with cigars in his hand (not in the facts at all) is the one and only same individual who robed a cigar store (owner claimed no product was stolen from his store)

Your facts are questionable. I'm done arguing with you.

Not true, my friend, officer M_ B_ went to Bosnia, to train officers with the United Nations peace keeping force, he trained officers in Idaho, Washington, and Colorado.

According to him, he told me, that officers are in fact trained to hit what they are aiming at. They are not trained to "shoot to kill"

Scarab Sages

2 words: Vidja Games


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Terquem wrote:

Officer Wilson is capable of determining a person with cigars in his hand (not in the facts at all) is the one and only same individual who robed a cigar store (owner claimed no product was stolen from his store)

Your facts are questionable. I'm done arguing with you.

His facts are simple. Anything the police said is true. Even if it contradicts things the police said earlier.

A competent prosecutor who actual had an interest in an indictment (or later a conviction) would have had a field day with the differences in the various statements made by Wilson and other police officers, not to mention the shoddy police work.
Instead the prosecution spent their time during the grand jury tearing down the witnesses for the prosecution.

And incorrectly instructing the jury on the relevant law and not correcting that instruction until the very end of the trial. That right there would have been a mistrial in actual court.


Would police work seem as dangerous if we only counted four percent of officers killed on duty?

Liberty's Edge

Terquem wrote:

Officer Wilson is capable of determining a person with cigars in his hand (not in the facts at all) is the one and only same individual who robed a cigar store (owner claimed no product was stolen from his store)

Your facts are questionable. I'm done arguing with you.

Not true, my friend, officer M_ B_ went to Bosnia, to train officers with the United Nations peace keeping force, he trained officers in Idaho, Washington, and Colorado.

According to him, he told me, that officers are in fact trained to hit what they are aiming at. They are not trained to "shoot to kill"

Why are my facts questionable? Here is the source where Officer Wilson made the connection:

http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2014/11/ferguson_grand_jury_decision _highlights_of_testimony_in_michael_brown_shooting.html

Wilson told the grand jury that he initially encountered Brown and a friend walking in a street and told them to move to the sidewalk, drawing an expletive from Brown. Wilson said he noticed that Brown had a handful of cigars, "and that's when it clicked for me" that the men were suspects in a theft at a convenience store reported minutes earlier.

If you can find a report of one police officer shooting to wound based on his or her training I will read it. Here's my understanding:

"When I encounter civilian response to officer-involved shootings, it's very often 'Why didn't they just shoot him in the leg?'" Dr. Bill Lewinski, executive director of the Force Science Institute, told Force Science News in a 2006 interview centered on Paterson's proposed legislation. "When civilians judge police shooting deaths-on juries, on review boards, in the media, in the community-this same argument is often brought forward. Shooting to wound is naively regarded as a reasonable means of stopping dangerous behavior.

"In reality, this thinking is a result of 'training by Hollywood,' in which movie and TV cops are able to do anything to control the outcomes of events that serve the director's dramatic interests. It reflects a misconception of real-life dynamics and ends up imposing unrealistic expectations of skill on real-life officers."

Vice President Joe Biden agrees. When Michael Paladino, president of New York's Detectives Endowment Association, showed him the bill he reportedly scoffed and suggested that it be called the "John Wayne Bill" because of the unrealistic, movie-like sharpshooting skills it demands of officers.

In light of this resurfacing of misguided "shoot-to-wound" thinking, Force Science News is reissuing a "position paper," originally introduced following Paterson's '06 proposed legislation, that discusses why shooting to wound versus shooting to stop is neither practical nor desirable as a performance standard. We hope this information proves useful to you in addressing any shoot-to-wound advocacy that may arise in your jurisdiction.

http://www.pfoa.co.uk/110/shooting-to-wound

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I am done arguing with faceless people on the internet. Many of you deal too much in emotion and not enough in concrete fact. I will leave you to it.

I leave with this. Police officers are in the overwhelming number of cases the men and women following and enforcing the law. Criminals are always men and women breaking it.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Charlie D. wrote:
If a criminal is fleeing, shoot to kill.

I should hope not.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Charlie D. wrote:

I am done arguing with faceless people on the internet. Many of you deal too much in emotion and not enough in concrete fact. I will leave you to it.

I leave with this. Police officers are in the overwhelming number of cases the men and women following and enforcing the law. Criminals are always men and women breaking it.

Hmmm...you seem to be suggesting that police only ever interact with criminals. Someone should tell the courts.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Charlie D. wrote:

Why are my facts questionable?

Because Officer Wilson changed his story.


It is always strange to me that people seem to jump to one side or the other of the coin of police are heroes/police are monsters, so quickly.

Some police officers do heroic things, some police officers do monstrous things, some police officers never do anything but mundane job related things.

And there certainly are some widespread problems with the way some police forces interact with their communities, particularly with black people, that need to change, still doesn't mean every cop is a monster.

And of course on the other hand that doesn't comfort the families of unarmed, nonviolent people who were gunned down with little or no warning and their killers get off scot free without even a trial because they wear a uniform.

In some ways saying this feels a little surreal seeing as it is coming from me of all people, the guy that suffered a completely unprovoked police surprise attack as a teenager and was wounded so badly I still have serious health problems from it 12 years later.

Those cops didn't go to jail or even lose their jobs despite the many witnesses and the ludicrous nature of their assault. I didn't even get the grand jury treatment, the system protected it's own then not the civilians it supposedly exists for.

There was no justice for me. (and by the way, I am not a criminal, I have never even had a speeding ticket)

Still, sometimes the system does work...(the world is complicated)


All those lists don't answer the question of comparable western democracies.....

Why do US police kill 450-1000 a year (depending on who's stats you are looking at) and comparable western democracies significantly less - Australia with 6 being a stand out.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Charlie D. wrote:
Terquem wrote:

Officer Wilson is capable of determining a person with cigars in his hand (not in the facts at all) is the one and only same individual who robed a cigar store (owner claimed no product was stolen from his store)

Your facts are questionable. I'm done arguing with you.

Not true, my friend, officer M_ B_ went to Bosnia, to train officers with the United Nations peace keeping force, he trained officers in Idaho, Washington, and Colorado.

According to him, he told me, that officers are in fact trained to hit what they are aiming at. They are not trained to "shoot to kill"

Why are my facts questionable? Here is the source where Officer Wilson made the connection:

http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2014/11/ferguson_grand_jury_decision _highlights_of_testimony_in_michael_brown_shooting.html

Wilson told the grand jury that he initially encountered Brown and a friend walking in a street and told them to move to the sidewalk, drawing an expletive from Brown. Wilson said he noticed that Brown had a handful of cigars, "and that's when it clicked for me" that the men were suspects in a theft at a convenience store reported minutes earlier.

Your facts are questionable because Wilson's testimony is questionable. Wilson's testimony is not fact. If police officer's testimony was fact, then we could dispense with good chunks of the rest of the justice system.

I do generally agree with you on the "Shoot to Wound" theory.


Charlie D. wrote:
Why are my facts questionable?
Pulp Fiction wrote:

"He fell out of a window."

"That's one way to say it. Another way is, he was thrown out. Another way is, he was thrown out by Marsellus. And even another way is, he was thrown out of a window by Marsellus because of you."


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Charlie D. wrote:
I am done arguing with faceless people on the internet. Many of you deal too much in emotion and not enough in concrete fact. I will leave you to it.

A few things to consider:

  • Contradictory statements =/= concrete facts.
  • Lack of emotion other than relief when regarding unarmed youths being shot down could be construed not as laudable dispassion, but rather as sociopathy.
  • "I'm losing this argument so I refuse to continue" is unlikely to win over undecided bystanders to your viewpoint.


  • 5 people marked this as a favorite.
    Yuugasa wrote:

    It is always strange to me that people seem to jump to one side or the other of the coin of police are heroes/police are monsters, so quickly.

    Some police officers do heroic things, some police officers do monstrous things, some police officers never do anything but mundane job related things.

    And there certainly are some widespread problems with the way some police forces interact with their communities, particularly with black people, that need to change, still doesn't mean every cop is a monster.

    And of course on the other hand that doesn't comfort the families of unarmed, nonviolent people who were gunned down with little or no warning and their killers get off scot free without even a trial because they wear a uniform.

    In some ways saying this feels a little surreal seeing as it is coming from me of all people, the guy that suffered a completely unprovoked police surprise attack as a teenager and was wounded so badly I still have serious health problems from it 12 years later.

    Those cops didn't go to jail or even lose their jobs despite the many witnesses and the ludicrous nature of their assault. I didn't even get the grand jury treatment, the system protected it's own then not the civilians it supposedly exists for.

    There was no justice for me. (and by the way, I am not a criminal, I have never even had a speeding ticket)

    Still, sometimes the system does work...(the world is complicated)

    And this is basically it. It's easy to get bogged down in the details of particular cases and to get offended in arguments of whether all cops are good or bad. That's not really the problem. The system is the problem. The system protects the bad cops and keeps the good cops from breaking ranks.

    We also wind up treating all these abuses as individual cases and treat the lack of proof that a particular case was certainly abuse or murder as proof that it was justified. There's a long distance between Hero Cop and proven murderer. Of all those recently not indicted, some may well fall on either side of the line.

    But it's not about the individuals. It's about the system. The police force in Ferguson for example is bleeding the black population dry with harassment tickets and fines and warrants for minor charges. Without that atmosphere, you don't have the tinder ready to explode, like it did with Brown's death. You have no trust of the police among the community and a police force that views the community as the enemy and a threat.


    Looks like we got us a cop here.


    4 people marked this as a favorite.
    Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

    Ah yes, the old, my unsupported opinions aren't convincing people therefore they're all irrational gambit. Truly it has a long and storied history.

    Frankly, if a cop tells you to do something they don't have the right to do, you don't have to obey. Cops aren't dealing with the scum of the earth all day long. In fact they're dealing with the scum of the earth almost never. Most of the time, they're dealing with traffic violators. Many cops are not corrupt, but until they stop protecting the ones who are, there's no way to tell the difference.


    Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
    Terquem wrote:

    Hold on, let me go get a list of every single person killed by type 2 diabetes, cause that's about as relevant as the information you posted.

    People die. Police officers are at greater risk of dying than most people. That is not an excuse

    While you do that, I'll grab a list of civilians shot by police officers. Oh wait, I can't because they don't report them even though the law requires it. I guess police officers are criminals too. Now who do we trust?

    We are just supposed to believe you on that? Honestly, people say anything and claim they are facts....


    And I'm even happy to go out on a limb and say most cops are not corrupt, most cops are good, hard working men and women just trying to be the best people they can be, hell better than me every day of the week

    But people make mistakes, make poor choices. That's all I was trying to say. When you fail, when you make a mistake, one you could have avoided, but didn't for whatever reason, there should be consequences, you know, other than those we all tend to think are associated with our myths and legends of the after life, but in some cases that might be all there is left to it here.


    Constantine wrote:
    Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
    Terquem wrote:

    Hold on, let me go get a list of every single person killed by type 2 diabetes, cause that's about as relevant as the information you posted.

    People die. Police officers are at greater risk of dying than most people. That is not an excuse

    While you do that, I'll grab a list of civilians shot by police officers. Oh wait, I can't because they don't report them even though the law requires it. I guess police officers are criminals too. Now who do we trust?
    We are just supposed to believe you on that? Honestly, people say anything and claim they are facts....

    It's been widely reported lately First link I found

    This isn't police shootings not reported to the local police, but statistics not passed on to the federal authorities as they are required to be. Though there is no penalty for not doing so.

    Liberty's Edge

    Constantine wrote:
    Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
    Terquem wrote:

    Hold on, let me go get a list of every single person killed by type 2 diabetes, cause that's about as relevant as the information you posted.

    People die. Police officers are at greater risk of dying than most people. That is not an excuse

    While you do that, I'll grab a list of civilians shot by police officers. Oh wait, I can't because they don't report them even though the law requires it. I guess police officers are criminals too. Now who do we trust?
    We are just supposed to believe you on that? Honestly, people say anything and claim they are facts....

    If they report as required, show it. That'll help win people over to your side. It really is that easy.


    Constantine wrote:
    Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
    Terquem wrote:

    Hold on, let me go get a list of every single person killed by type 2 diabetes, cause that's about as relevant as the information you posted.

    People die. Police officers are at greater risk of dying than most people. That is not an excuse

    While you do that, I'll grab a list of civilians shot by police officers. Oh wait, I can't because they don't report them even though the law requires it. I guess police officers are criminals too. Now who do we trust?
    We are just supposed to believe you on that? Honestly, people say anything and claim they are facts....

    No, you don't to have believe me.


    4 people marked this as a favorite.
    Squeakmaan wrote:
    Frankly, if a cop tells you to do something they don't have the right to do, you don't have to obey.

    You don't have to obey, but if they decide you're going to you might wind up dead. Especially if you're black. Especially if there aren't other witnesses. Bear in mind that a cop telling you to do something they don't have the right to tell you to do is the exact kind of cop least likely to respect your rights.

    Also remember that cops can legally lie to you about they can tell you to do.

    You probably won't be killed. Most of the time. Even the vast majority of the time. But in this world, it's your responsibility to manage the situation and deescalate the cop's fear of you.

    Which is insane.


    So, mr Cop Apologist Charlie, nice list of people "dying doing their duty".

    Would you mind post the corresponding list of people killed by police for the same time period?


    thejeff wrote:


    This isn't police shootings not reported to the local police, but statistics not passed on to the federal authorities as they are required to be. Though there is no penalty for not doing so.

    There is never a penalty for the police.

    Except when once in a blue moon a cop does the right thing and exposes the corruption. Then all hell breaks loose.


    1 person marked this as a favorite.

    Why did Charlie go back to cops in the 1920s and 1930s above? That makes no sense.

    To answer the question posed in the topic, as any black man can tell you, "because they can."


    1 person marked this as a favorite.
    Freehold DM wrote:

    Why did Charlie go back to cops in the 1920s and 1930s above? That makes no sense.

    To answer the question posed in the topic, as any black man can tell you, "because they can."

    20s and 30s? Hell, he went back to 1874!


    1 person marked this as a favorite.
    Charlie D. wrote:
    Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
    Sometimes you get shot asking for help.

    And sometimes a twenty-five year old deputy is

    killed on duty pursuing a criminal.

    Violence and death are bummers. They are part of police officers' lives and the police officers accept that fact so that violence and death don't have to be part of most of our lives.

    not seeing the connection here. The cop that shot the guy in SC is an example of paying the price for a bad decision, this death is met with an article on cops being killed in the line of duty and a note on how they take on violence and death so we don't have to?


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    bugleyman wrote:
    Charlie D. wrote:
    If a criminal is fleeing, shoot to kill.
    I should hope not.

    Not for the least because the Supreme Court ruled that unconstitutional in the 1980s


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    Cop breaks woman's eye socket while she is handcuffed in the back of his car, not charged. So apparently, even after you have restrained the suspect you can beat them on video and be found not at fault for anything.


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    Caineach wrote:
    Cop breaks woman's eye socket while she is handcuffed in the back of his car, not charged. So apparently, even after you have restrained the suspect you can beat them on video and be found not at fault for anything.

    Maybe she broke her own eye socket.


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    Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
    Caineach wrote:
    Cop breaks woman's eye socket while she is handcuffed in the back of his car, not charged. So apparently, even after you have restrained the suspect you can beat them on video and be found not at fault for anything.
    Maybe she broke her own eye socket.

    Yeah! Or maybe the police officer's precognition allowed him to see that the woman was one day going to be "a felon," so busting her up was justified!


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    Here is an blog post I like. Many police officers buy into the core idea of broken windows, that low level offenses left prosecuted will lead to more low level offenses until they are normalized and higher level offenses become justifiable because it seems like no one cares. If you apply that to police officers though, how can they justify not looking into accusations against other police officers and yet say that lack of investigation into offenses does not lead to higher incidents of offense?


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    Caineach wrote:
    Cop breaks woman's eye socket while she is handcuffed in the back of his car, not charged. So apparently, even after you have restrained the suspect you can beat them on video and be found not at fault for anything.

    Don't forget, if they bleed on you after you've beaten them, you can charge them with destruction of government property.


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    Irontruth wrote:
    Don't forget, if they bleed on you after you've beaten them, you can charge them with destruction of government property.

    Darn tootin!

    Paizo Glitterati Robot

    Dropping in with a quick reminder that even if you're discussing an issue that can easily and quickly become heated, posts should be civil and adhere to our Community Guidelines. Thanks!

    Liberty's Edge

    2 people marked this as a favorite.
    Caineach wrote:
    Here is an blog post I like. Many police officers buy into the core idea of broken windows, that low level offenses left prosecuted will lead to more low level offenses until they are normalized and higher level offenses become justifiable because it seems like no one cares. If you apply that to police officers though, how can they justify not looking into accusations against other police officers and yet say that lack of investigation into offenses does not lead to higher incidents of offense?

    People never want to believe the worst of themselves or their friends. The broken window is for other people, bad people, not Bob who had your back on that scary call last year or George who covered your Christmas shift for you your first christmas as a married man.


    5 people marked this as a favorite.

    I've said this before, but I think it bears repeating: I believe most police officers are good people doing a very tough job. It's just that, when an officer does take things too far, it's in everyone's best interest for that officer to be held accountable. Right now, there seems to be zero accountability...and that's a problem.

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