My biggest beef is that they didn't leave in the whole "you can't use the base classes if you use a hybrid class" thing.
Indeed. For all their stated love for keeping things clear and simple, they had to go further and give vague instructions as to what stacks and what doesn't if you then multiclass into one of the component classes. It made my GM's head spin, and he just went with the original restriction.
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... and there is a third party theurge base class from Kobold Press that is much more straightforward than some of these. It will certainly fly over better if he discourages level dipping very strongly.
Really interesting thread!!!
Thanks so much for mentioning the Theurge class from Kobold Press. It has proven to be very popular. In fact, the Theurge, and the New Paths Compendium the class comes from have both been very well reviewed :)
Yeah. I skipped a lot. That bites. Glad I didn't go mt for one of my pfs tieflings.
Guessing you haven't been reading the thread in its entirety. PFS characters who already have at least one level in a PrC based on the previous ruling get grandfathered in. So if anything you would be upset you didn't get a character in under the wire on that one.
Buri: My group plays by the playtest rules as it is just too silly to imagine that the classes stack in some respects but not others. But hey, if the SLA ruling is any gauge then maybe Paizo will make a reversal on this as well. ;)
Supposing you actually wanted to rescue the Mystic Theurge prestige class as opposed to going the 3rd party Theurge route or something like that:
{. . .}
Any thoughts on tweaks you'd like to see made to the Prestige Class itself (like say, for instance, in Pathfinder Unchained or one of its companions)?
{. . .}
While I actually overall DON'T like the Spell-Like Ability FAQ, some Prestige Classes need it to be viable, and Mystic Theurge is one of them. My house rule inclination would be to rule that Spell-Like Abilities DON'T substitute for spellcasting unless a Feat or Prestige Class specifically say that they do, but change Mystic Theurge to specifically allow 2nd (or higher) Level Spell-Like Abilities to substitute for 2nd level spellcasting. However, I also don't like that you HAVE to do this to make it viable, so I would also change Mystic Theurge to allow you in if both your Arcane and Divine spellcasting progressions are just 1 Level short of giving you normal 2nd Level spellcasting. This would enable builds where you actually use standard leveling for both spellcasting classes, thus being behind (depending upon the classes) only 2 & 2, 2 & 3, 3 & 2, or 3 & 3 in spellcasting progression even if you had NO Spell-Like Abilities.
(I guess the second part is a lesson to be careful what you wish for.)
Anyone have any more thoughts on ways to make the Mystic Theurge prestige class viable again with only a moderate rebuild?
A Hunter guide appeared recently on the Zenith Games Guide to the Guides, but let's just say I'd like to see more . . .
Also, the Slayer guide mentioned as being in the works a long time ago (back in ACG Playtest days) never showed up, so we need this too.
Of course, hanging over the head of both is uncertainty about when (if ever) an ACG/ACO Errata Pack (which is badly needed) will come out.
i just learned from a few other threads that magical knack doesn't actually increase your caster level, but only increases level-based spell effects like duration.
now i see why a wizard 1/cleric 3 with magical knack isn't a great option for the mystic.
argh.
still a great guide, though.
Depends on the spells you take.i just learned from a few other threads that magical knack doesn't actually increase your caster level, but only increases level-based spell effects like duration.
now i see why a wizard 1/cleric 3 with magical knack isn't a great option for the mystic.
argh.
One can always look into Esoteric Training to get a +3/+1 boost to caster level and spells known in two separate abilities though, no?
And then Magical Knack could offset the +1 class so that the character runs with two full caster levels and only lags behind by 1 spell level on one class.
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i just learned from a few other threads that magical knack doesn't actually increase your caster level, but only increases level-based spell effects like duration.
now i see why a wizard 1/cleric 3 with magical knack isn't a great option for the mystic.
argh.
still a great guide, though.
According to the Paizo PRD Advanced Player's Guide New Rules page that contains Magical Knack, it does increase your caster level (provided that it doesn't go past your Hit Dice). What it DOESN'T do is increase your spells per day, including access to higher level spells.
It is easier to find on the Archives of Nethys Magical Knack page, but you can compare and see that the text is the same (also on d20pfsrd.com, since unlike many traits it didn't have anything they were forced to change for legal reasons).
Well there is one way...
Equipment trick (Sunrod) gives you the ability to cast light spells as one level higher by expending a sunrod as a material component.
Two levels of say Wizard and one of Cleric means you are capable of casting 2nd level Arcane and Divine spells which should let you qualify for MT at level 4. It'll finish out at level 13 giving you effective casting levels of 12 for Wizard, and 11 for Cleric. Which isn't too shabby.
One catch. While RAW, likely not RAI, so it's a rickety slope. Some GMs may ban out and they may errata it. But if you really want it, it is one trick you can do.
Edit: The reason you can't take it at 3rd level is because of the skill rank prerequisite.
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Yeah. I skipped a lot. That bites. Glad I didn't go mt for one of my pfs tieflings.Guessing you haven't been reading the thread in its entirety. PFS characters who already have at least one level in a PrC based on the previous ruling get grandfathered in. So if anything you would be upset you didn't get a character in under the wire on that one.
I actually kind of am. I have a tiefling oracle that would have be perfect for mystic theurge until they nixed the early entry loophole.
MageHunter- I don't claim to the an expert on PF rules, but it seems to me you are right, including the bit about it being RAW but not RAI.
It strikes me as most unlikely that having disallowed early entry via SLA, and really annoying a lot of people in so doing, the powers that be a Paizo would allow another means of early entry.
Do you know of anyone who has had a PFS character approved using this method of early entry? My guess is if yes, it will be disallowed fairly quickly. Don't get me wrong, I like the MT and would like to see them made playable, but I think that is what will happen.
I don't think the Sunrod Equipment Trick is going to do it, but here's an idea that just might work for a highly Wizard-focused Mystic Theurge (until it gets FAQ'ed). Use the Faith Magic Arcane Discovery to get ability to cast a 2nd level divine spell (although it costs a 3rd level Wizard slot, and requires you to get to 7th level as Wizard).
Is AngryWiggles still around?
Why do you think the Sunrod Equipment Trick won't work?
On your idea, that should work imho. The feat does explicitly say it's cast as a divine spell.
It may not be FAQed out of existence.
To get to be a mystic theurge by this method, you would need to take 7 levels of wizard, one of [say] cleric, and then you can be a MT at level 9.
I don't see it as OP at all. Whereas the Sunrod Equipment trick lets you go in at level 4, which may well be OP. And getting to be a MT by taking only 1 level of cleric means that at, say level 10 you would cast as a 9th level wizard, 3rd level cleric, which is must better than 7 and 7 that you would get by taking 3 levels in each class before becoming a MT.
^Nevermind, I missed the existence of Dancing Lantern as a 1st level Cleric/Oracle [Light] spell that could be made to qualify with the Sunrod trick.
Alternatively, I just realized that if you had Heighten Spell for your Wizard casting anyway, you could use Light (the Orison) + 1 level of Heighten Spell + the Sunrod trick (useful if you want your divine class to be Druid or Shaman).
Although arguably since it isn't your actual spellcasting that is 2nd level, but just 1st level spellcasting boosted to 2nd level by use of a Sunrod, it might not be allowed, although the Equipment Trick (Sunrod) feat does say 1 level higher "for all purposes", so maybe Paizo accidentally created another loophole . . . .
The phrase "for all purposes" is clear and unambiguous. I don't think there is any doubt about the RAW.
I also think the loophole will be FAQed out of existence if it starts getting much use. MageHunter has a sharp eye, and maybe should be called LoopholeHunter.
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The phrase "for all purposes" is clear and unambiguous.By that line of thinking it would also require a higher level spell slot.
The spell is treated as one spell level higher (to a maximum of 9th level) for all purposes, including the calculation of saving throw DCs and its ability to overcome sources of magical darkness.
I think you are being pedantic Rysky. And not well.
You always have to consider context when interpreting natural language. To interpret the effects of the feat as allowing you to cast [say] a 1st level spell, consume a sunrod, and it is then treated as a second level spell with the result that you can't cast it because you didn't memorise it as a second level spell, which means that as it hasn't been cast and therefore it is a 1st level spell again, which means...
is uh, a mistake imho. :P
Never played a MT but always thought it would need very careful planning!
I actually kind of am. I have a tiefling oracle that would have be perfect for mystic theurge until they nixed the early entry loophole.Yeah. I skipped a lot. That bites. Glad I didn't go mt for one of my pfs tieflings.Guessing you haven't been reading the thread in its entirety. PFS characters who already have at least one level in a PrC based on the previous ruling get grandfathered in. So if anything you would be upset you didn't get a character in under the wire on that one.
As I posted this over a year and a half ago I stand by my original statement.
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I think you are being pedantic Rysky. And not well.
You always have to consider context when interpreting natural language. To interpret the effects of the feat as allowing you to cast [say] a 1st level spell, consume a sunrod, and it is then treated as a second level spell with the result that you can't cast it because you didn't memorise it as a second level spell, which means that as it hasn't been cast and therefore it is a 1st level spell again, which means...
is uh, a mistake imho. :P
Being pedantic is annoying, isn't it?
You're interpreting that having some specific spells being buffed once by a component that you have to replenish somehow qualifies for early entry, on the basis that it says "for all purposes", but conveniently ignoring that by that logic it should also take up a spell slot higher.
Firstly, I can't take credit for the equipment trick. I heard that from Angry Wiggles.
Secondly, in most cases I would disallow something like this, but in a home game probably allow it out of respect for the concept. To stay fair maybe you have to pick two different casting stats.
I mean otherwise MT is just worthless.
I mean otherwise MT is just worthless.We're just going to disagree on that.
Well ideas I heard were focusing on non-level dependent stuff, or investing in social skills. A Wizard Cleric could pull off buffing. It'll just feel pretty underwhelming for a while.
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Well ideas I heard were focusing on non-level dependent stuff, or investing in social skills. A Wizard Cleric could pull off buffing. It'll just feel pretty underwhelming for a while.I mean otherwise MT is just worthless.We're just going to disagree on that.
It also has the most versatile spell list in the game. Far from worthless.
From the Oxford English Dictionary Online:_
"pedantry
NOUN
[mass noun] Excessive concern with minor details and rules.
logic
NOUN
1Reasoning conducted or assessed according to strict principles of validity."
You are misusing both words Rysky.
You also do not appear to have have understood my last post.
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I think you are being pedantic Rysky. And not well.
You always have to consider context when interpreting natural language. To interpret the effects of the feat as allowing you to cast [say] a 1st level spell, consume a sunrod, and it is then treated as a second level spell with the result that you can't cast it because you didn't memorise it as a second level spell, which means that as it hasn't been cast and therefore it is a 1st level spell again, which means...
is uh, a mistake imho. :P
Being pedantic is annoying, isn't it?
You're interpreting that having some specific spells being buffed once by a component that you have to replenish somehow qualifies for early entry, on the basis that it says "for all purposes", but conveniently ignoring that by that logic it should also take up a spell slot higher.
This is the difficulty of basing our builds on poorly worded rules language. While it is fairly easy to decipher the intention of the text most of the time, we are expected to work off of what it actually reads. Which in this case, does not support our case as well as we would hope.
Currently, to our great pain, the mystic theurge is not supported as well as we would hope.
The equipment trick route can be used only with the most permissive of game masters, and I would not recommend it in most games or in PFS play, despite its legality there. It allows for simply too much table variation.
The faith magic discovery gets us around the low level pains, and can work, but also severely restricts our choices.
For a short time, we had relatively open choices about how to make our characters and have them be competent and competitive. Although most of us were not overly fond of the flavor restrictions imposed by race or domain choices, we could at least play the class.
In recent weeks, I've spent some time attempting to create a prestige class that would work as an alternate option to the mystic theurge, which would fill all of the roles that a theurge should fill, that will ideally alleviate these problems. When I'm fully pleased with the balance of it, you should know more. There are many more sample builds to make. The rules must be bent further to know if there are any holes present.
In the meantime, kobold press has a theurge base class for those of you who want to play a wizard/cleric combination.
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Of course, Kobold Press' Theurge would have even more trouble getting into a PFS game than Equipment Trick (Sunrod) . . . .
^Multitalented and Multitalented Mastery come from a good idea, but the implementation is flawed -- unless you go to epic levels, you wont get much out of this unless you managed to get a couple of classes that have insanely good Favored Class Bonuses, and in that case you aren't taking hit points. If you need this for hit points, better to just spend a feat on Toughness (and it's even partially front-loaded to help you get started). Multitalented actually has some decent alternatives to trade it out for -- one example is the new Multidisciplined alternate racial trait(*), that boosts your caster level for both of your classes by +1 as long as this boost does not go past your total character level (and it should stack with Magical Knack on the class for which you are more behind).
(*)This is from Horror Adventures . . . and now this reminds me that I really need to go back to the additions I have made for Cartmanbeck's/Broken Zenith's Guide to Pathfinder Races, to add Horror Adventures material . . . .