Golarion: Where's the Mexicans?


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Well, the Chinese considered all non-Chinese to be barbarians, too. So Greek arrogance notwithstanding...

The Greeks considered all other cultures to be barbaric, and then the Romans conquered them. The Romans considered all other cultures but themselves and the Greeks to be barbarians!

==Aelryinth

Paizo Employee Developer

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Turin the Mad wrote:

Arcadia needs a clean break from "humans, humans, everywhere". Why not a lizardfolk Empire, a theocracy of sentient tyrannosaurs or any number of other possibilities instead of " oh, look, more humans / [insert PC race here] ".

If there's a time to take a step into an alien culture that isn't dead set on turning everyone into slime-covered meat snacks (aboleths) or slave labor meat snacks (serpentfolk) but has their own distinct culture, Arcadia is the place.

Considering there's the lizardfolk nation of Droon in southern Garund, we are unlikely to also place one in Arcadia. That said, there are a ton of races that don't yet have a corner of the map to call their own, so it's entirely possible another "monstrous" race will get their own civilization in Arcadia as well as other places on the map.

As to whether Arcadia is the best fit for where alien, monster people live, that's a tricky question. One of the goals of the Pathfinder campaign setting is that there be representation for players of all sorts, and that includes many players who identify as native american (of any number of specific heritages). To insinuate, even unintentionally, that people from Arcadia (read "America") are monster people that you won't be able to easily identify with is less than ideal.

So expect something akin to Tian Xia with Arcadia and our other unexplored continents—many humans of varying ethnicities, as well as a smattering of other races, from elves and dwarves and gnomes to new ones, such as nagaji, wayangs, and samsarans were for the Dragon Kingdoms.


That smacks of willful misinterpretation, not accidental insinuation. And not everyone knows where all the races live, not even us former charter subscribers. ;)

I'll have to check out Droon.

first up on Google: The Secrets of Droon. Amusing.

Dark Archive

MMCJawa wrote:

My own preference for setting, at least gamewise is:

Either throw out every analog and go completely novel with everything, and don't have any fantasy counterpart cultures/nations/etc (which means no Faux Europe).

Or if you are going to have a Faux Europe, go full out and include some version of Asia, Africa, The Americas, etc.

Same, for me. If a setting has a fantasy Africa and fantasy India and fantasy Americas, and yet doesn't have exact analogues for fantasy Rome or France or England or Russia or Byzantium or Greece, it feels weird to me.

Greyhawk, the Realms and Golarion seem to have fantasy Africas and fantasy Egypts and fantasy Persias, and yet no specific fantasy European countries like Germany or Scotland, which kind of makes it feel to me like Egypt and Africa are 'exotic' and 'fair game' to be set alongside countries full of elves, dwarves and orcs, but Constantinople is somehow 'more realistic' than Japan and China and India.

The Exchange

Hi Set! I thought that Galt was our "Fantasy France" equivalent, and that Andoran was sort of like a "Fantasy England" where Oliver Cromwell's side won the English Civil War (at least, the costumes they wear in the artwork seems to suggest this).


The Andoren costumes have much too tight trousers and jackets to be mid-1600s, but they fit pre-French Revolution fashion quite well, so think a century or so later.


Er... Andoran is pretty clearly Fantasy inspired by Early (U.S. of) America (or rather, reflecting modern (U.S. of) American values in an Early (U.S. of) American dressing).

There's even an homage to the famous painting Liberty in the Inner Sea World Guide, in case it wasn't heavy-handed enough - you know, with the consortiums, the Eagle as the divine symbol, and the whole structure of elections and government and even the adventures and ideas presented.

I dunno, seemed pretty straight-forward to me.

(Though it is worth noting that Andoran is not Fantasy America by any stretch. It's clearly a Fantasy Country inspired by (U.S. of) America, rather than being a Fantsay America.)

EDIT: To add a closing parenthesis to my parenthetical, change the paragraphing a little, and to note: the above is, of course, all just opinion and conjecture. It just seemed pretty heavy-handed to me.

Liberty's Edge

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Mark Moreland wrote:
One of the goals of the Pathfinder campaign setting is that there be representation for players of all sorts, and that includes many players who identify as native american (of any number of specific heritages).

I hope that includes those of us who identify as otyughs. ;)

Quote:
To insinuate, even unintentionally, that people from Arcadia (read "America") are monster people that you won't be able to easily identify with is less than ideal.

I don't think anyone meant that Arcadians are across the board "monster people", just that a brand new continent would be a nice place to see some nonhuman societies, Kyonin-style, as well in addition to humans. And that some of those nonhuman societies could also be inspired by real world cultures instead of being just the generic fantasy version of that race. I think it might be similar to what you did with Pahmet dwarves, although I'm not personally familiar with them.


Samy wrote:
Mark Moreland wrote:
One of the goals of the Pathfinder campaign setting is that there be representation for players of all sorts, and that includes many players who identify as native american (of any number of specific heritages).

I hope that includes those of us who identify as otyughs. ;)

Quote:
To insinuate, even unintentionally, that people from Arcadia (read "America") are monster people that you won't be able to easily identify with is less than ideal.
I don't think anyone meant that Arcadians are across the board "monster people", just that a brand new continent would be a nice place to see some nonhuman societies, Kyonin-style, as well in addition to humans. And that some of those nonhuman societies could also be inspired by real world cultures instead of being just the generic fantasy version of that race. I think it might be similar to what you did with Pahmet dwarves, although I'm not personally familiar with them.

Yeah I think that is a given...there will be new races in Arcadia that are not human, some of which have already been introduced (Skinwalkers, Strix,Syrinx) and some of which have been alluded to (A half Sasquatch race mentioned in Sasquatch entry for Mysterious Monsters revisited).


Adam Daigle wrote:
Hayato Ken wrote:
....I do hope it won´t all be somehow conquered and colonized territory....
Don't worry. I'll fight that approach as much as I possibly can. :)

:) I've made my vote clear in previous posts... an AP where the New World conquers the old, complete with disease...


thejeff wrote:
Liz Courts wrote:
Only if you presume that the Azlanti colonists survived.
Or intermarried and their descendents survived.

Do you mean intermarried with other ethnicities or just among themselves? If the former, I believe that those people are called Taldanes. If the latter... I always got the impression that pure-blood Azlanti died with Aroden and that Paizo staked a fair chunk of change on that.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

You can run across several pure blood azlanti during Rise of the Runelords.

==Aelryinth

Silver Crusade Contributor

Aelryinth wrote:

You can run across several pure blood azlanti during Rise of the Runelords.

==Aelryinth

Indeed, although their nationality is technically Thassilonian. :)


Aelryinth wrote:

You can run across several pure blood azlanti during Rise of the Runelords.

==Aelryinth

Hmm. Well, I learned something today. Cool.

I suppose, in the end, there's any number of ways to have a whole village or area survive to the present and recolonize (reconquer?) Avistan. It would make for an interesting AP story... just not necessarily an Arcadian AP story.

Liberty's Edge

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All sounds good, bring on Arcadia, MesoAmerican analogs, Cheliax v Andoran colonies, long lost Azlantis, unexplored lands, strange monster nations and risen exotic dragon gods! I want it all!!!!


So, uh, no one's going to mention the appropriate abbreviation is "where're" instead of "where's"?

('Cause I don't think I'm wrong 'bout the English, though I could be...)

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Technically you could get a conquering army of Azlanti bloods. The fourth? module, where you go into the testing facility...they literally grow Azlanti soldiers in the Wrath complex from tubes. So, yeah, you can bring back the entire Azlanti genetic race if you get control of the facility.

==Aelryinth

Silver Crusade Contributor

Aelryinth wrote:

Technically you could get a conquering army of Azlanti bloods. The fourth? module, where you go into the testing facility...they literally grow Azlanti soldiers in the Wrath complex from tubes. So, yeah, you can bring back the entire Azlanti genetic race if you get control of the facility.

==Aelryinth

Well, not the entire genetic race. More like the tiny, tiny bit of it that's been cloning and recycling itself in there. There's a reason they're not making new Azlanti the "traditional" way, after all. That's how you get morlocks. :)

I'm pretty sure it would be easier to go find a clonepod in Numeria or something.

On top of that, it's probably safe to say that they don't have a grasp of Azlanti culture. They're biological Azlanti... but that's all.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

which is why I noted genetic race, not culture. And stuff in the underdark had a big something to do with Morlocks...and that's if you think the aboleth weren't involved. heh!

==Aelryinth


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If the OP is insterested, here's my Arcadia thread here for some good ideas for Arcadia. This includes a lot of commentary from the devs about some of the things they are keeping in mind. I also have my own setting that takes place in a Caribbean-inspired Renaissance fantasy world, flavored by the Taino and Carib tribes, the European colonies, and modern-day Latin and Caribbean cultures. I designed it specifically so that everyone could play any human ethnicity they desired, especially Hispanic and Native Americans. I've been on hiatus on it for a couple of months due to work and school, but I'm available for ideas and talking if you're down.

Silver Crusade Contributor

Aelryinth wrote:

which is why I noted genetic race, not culture. And stuff in the underdark had a big something to do with Morlocks...and that's if you think the aboleth weren't involved. heh!

==Aelryinth

Right... I was also noting that you don't have enough of the race's genetic material. The "new race" would inbreed into oblivion within a few generations, unless you could find more Azlanti bloodlines to weave back in. So, keep delving into Thassilonian ruins.

And as for morlocks, I was actually thinking of a very specific population. You've read Serpent's Skull, right? Check out Book 5 again. :)

Sovereign Court

There is a map Golarion from a campaign that shows Arcadia being partially conquered by Cheliax, with two different colonies at least.

I like the idea and intend to steal it.

There is a problem too for Andoran colonies : Andoran ships need to go through the Arch of Aroden to reach Arcadia, meaning that in case of war, Cheliax can cut them off the mainland very easily.

French English and Dutch colonies did not have that problem with the Americas.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

I'm fully aware of Serpent's Skull. There's also a LOT of hostile serpent magic in that city.

It's also connected to the rest of the Underdark, and it makes no freaking sense why they are trapped down there when their own territory includes a teleport link back to the city above!!!...

So, I'm going with external magical forces being behind the decline. Especially since Morlocks are monstrous humanoids and don't even have a human subtype anymore...something more then inbreeding is at work!

As for Rise of the Runlords...we have no clue how genetically different the Vat-born children of Wrath are. It's entirely possible that they are all we'd need to start bringing them back, or, at the very least, allow Azlanti traits to pass to the offspring with other humans.

==Aelryinth


Wait... This is about Morlocks now?...

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

You were wondering where the Mexicans were, right? Well...

==Aelryinth


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Odraude wrote:
If the OP is insterested, here's my Arcadia thread here for some good ideas for Arcadia. This includes a lot of commentary from the devs about some of the things they are keeping in mind. I also have my own setting that takes place in a Caribbean-inspired Renaissance fantasy world, flavored by the Taino and Carib tribes, the European colonies, and modern-day Latin and Caribbean cultures. I designed it specifically so that everyone could play any human ethnicity they desired, especially Hispanic and Native Americans. I've been on hiatus on it for a couple of months due to work and school, but I'm available for ideas and talking if you're down.

I just started reading your Arcadia thread and find it very interesting (e.g., your link to the story about Abubakari II of the Mali Empire of West Africa). On Earth I have heard the Olmec heads interpreted popularly as evidence for a prehistoric African presence in what became México, and on Golarion it seems like the Shory would be a likely candidate for another intercultural encounter (after Azlant and before Cheliax / Andoran / Taldor).

I'll post more here or there as I work my way through the thread.

Also, I'm interested in your own setting Odraude. Please do tell us more here, or link to wherever you've already shared it.


Prince with a Thousand Enemies wrote:


Ernest Mueller's question raises a host of questions for me. I think he wants to learn about a region that is analogous to Mexico, but I have no idea what region of the country, or what moment in its history interests him.

Both of...

Sorry, I don't check the forums frequently and since there's no email-update I figured this thread had died once it went quiet the first time.

I'm not as interested in the history as I am in the people, as an ethnic and cultural group. (Obviously IRL the history formed that, but that's not strongly relevant - mainly I want to play characters that are recognizably Hispanic).

I appreciate Diego and Odraude sharing their own takes on the concept...


Ernest Mueller wrote:
recognizably Hispanic

Well, it's certainly not Mexican - not even close, really, but hopefully this idea could be recognizably Hispanic in its origins. While the myths are Guaraní instead of Hispanic in origin, and Brazil (the southern most region is Guaraní) is Lusitanic instead of Hispanic, both Argentina and Paraguay are Hispanic (according to my best understanding), so... linked!

(And besides, I'd really like feedback, if anyone has any...)


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Prince with a Thousand Enemies wrote:
Odraude wrote:
If the OP is insterested, here's my Arcadia thread here for some good ideas for Arcadia. This includes a lot of commentary from the devs about some of the things they are keeping in mind. I also have my own setting that takes place in a Caribbean-inspired Renaissance fantasy world, flavored by the Taino and Carib tribes, the European colonies, and modern-day Latin and Caribbean cultures. I designed it specifically so that everyone could play any human ethnicity they desired, especially Hispanic and Native Americans. I've been on hiatus on it for a couple of months due to work and school, but I'm available for ideas and talking if you're down.

I just started reading your Arcadia thread and find it very interesting (e.g., your link to the story about Abubakari II of the Mali Empire of West Africa). On Earth I have heard the Olmec heads interpreted popularly as evidence for a prehistoric African presence in what became México, and on Golarion it seems like the Shory would be a likely candidate for another intercultural encounter (after Azlant and before Cheliax / Andoran / Taldor).

I'll post more here or there as I work my way through the thread.

Also, I'm interested in your own setting Odraude. Please do tell us more here, or link to wherever you've already shared it.

Once things quiet down on my end. Work + School leave little time to really do much outside of those two.

Liberty's Edge

I'm all for not simply mirroring Earth's history, but I don't want it to be so crazy/out there as to simply be completely utterly new with red skinned people. There are a lot of nations and cultures to draw on for their own empires. Maya/Inca/Aztec sure but also Cahokia, Iroquois, Pueblo, Lakota, Amazonian.

I sent Wes a copy of 1491, wonder if he ever got around to reading it :p


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Aelryinth wrote:

You were wondering where the Mexicans were, right? Well...

==Aelryinth

Greeeat. Now I'm imagining all new and terrible kinds of slurs for morlocks. This post has officially made me a worse person, and once I'm done giggling I'm going to be very disappointed in myself.

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