General Discussion: Kineticist


Rules Discussion

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Liberty's Edge

Sounds like we have a lot more talents incoming, and at least 4+ skills...


It sounds like Redacted is the buffer Mark mentioned he was thinking of implementing at the end of the playtest...


I hope it is true about the class getting 4+int skill points and I also hope that you get more class skills then the playtest.


I'm guessing the chances of being able to get a copy with the mockup cover are pretty much nil.


And it is revealed that the iconic is a kid. Fitting thematically, though technically illegal.


I heard that as well though I am not sure what kind of kineticist I would have say it is more then likely pyro or aether.


Dragon78 wrote:
I heard that as well though I am not sure what kind of kineticist I would have say it is more then likely pyro or aether.

You can see a pic of the kineticist iconic here... too blurry to read anything, but enough to tease the kineticist fanbase immensely.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Milo v3 wrote:
Dragon78 wrote:
I heard that as well though I am not sure what kind of kineticist I would have say it is more then likely pyro or aether.
You can see a pic of the kineticist iconic here... too blurry to read anything, but enough to tease the kineticist fanbase immensely.

Yep, Definitely Pyro.


Yay pyros!

On that note: I got some questions I'd need other folks' opinions on:

My pyro just hit level 6 in PFS and I'm wanting to pick up Flame Jet.

Playtest Document wrote:


You shoot a burst of flame behind you as a standard action,
propelling you up to 60 feet in a straight line, including into the
air (any movement upward costs double). If you end your turn
mid-air, you begin falling on your next turn unless you use flame
jet again.
  • Obviously if the pyro takes a move action to move 30 ft forward and then takes a standard action to flame jet straight up 30 ft, he ends his turn in mid-air, and doesn't fall until his next turn where he gets to use flame jet to avoid falling.
    BUT, what if he uses the flame jet standard action first, and move action to draw a weapon or something afterwards? After the flame jet, he hasn't ended his turn yet as he still has an action left, does he hang in the air or drop down like a rock? If it's the latter, can one simply flame jet up, declare turn over (and give up other actions) and stay in the air?
  • Flame Jet just says the pyro is propelled up to 60 feet in a straight line. That's obviously more limiting than flight which allows one to turn or maneuver in general. However flight involves actual movement with a fly speed and flame jet doesn't. Does flame jet simply propel the pyro from point A to point B with no regards to encumbrance/load? I'm wondering if I can carry others on my back or in my arms and simply propel us 60 feet horizontally or 30 feet upwards. If I can, then the previous question of whether I drop down after flame jetting as my first action becomes DOUBLY important!


Protoman wrote:


  • Obviously if the pyro takes a move action to move 30 ft forward and then takes a standard action to flame jet straight up 30 ft, he ends his turn in mid-air, and doesn't fall until his next turn where he gets to use flame jet to avoid falling.
    BUT, what if he uses the flame jet standard action first, and move action to draw a weapon or something afterwards? After the flame jet, he hasn't ended his turn yet as he still has an action left, does he hang in the air or drop down like a rock? If it's the latter, can one simply flame jet up, declare turn over (and give up other actions) and stay in the air?

Don't think of it as "which action did you use first", think of it as "did you use the action at all?". If you used the action that round to keep yourself in the air, you're in the air in the spot you ended up at (be it because you stayed in one place or moved) until the next round.

Quote:
  • Flame Jet just says the pyro is propelled up to 60 feet in a straight line. That's obviously more limiting than flight which allows one to turn or maneuver in general. However flight involves actual movement with a fly speed and flame jet doesn't. Does flame jet simply propel the pyro from point A to point B with no regards to encumbrance/load? I'm wondering if I can carry others on my back or in my arms and simply propel us 60 feet horizontally or 30 feet upwards. If I can, then the previous question of whether I drop down after flame jetting as my first action becomes DOUBLY important!
  • This one needs Mark's official ruling, since the ability doesn't say anything about weight.


    If you've used telekinetic maneuver to grapple someone, are they now a viable target for telekinetic haul? Can I use my blast on said target? Preferably either lightning, while yelling about unlimited power, or aether, centered on the throat.

    Sovereign Court

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    Per the weight restriction - I asked this before and Mark stated that encumbrance has no impact on the speed you can travel with it. Unlike the air version which acts like flight with the associated weight restrictions.


    super late to the party, but here is some speculation!

    A feat/talent to infuse others; take some burn to let an ally add element damage to melee attacks for rounds/level (remember chrono trigger combo attacks?)

    a feat/talent to augment another's summons; prepare an action to infuse another's summoning spell with elemental energy adding a quick template to the summoned creature

    an ability to attempt control of elementals who match your element(s)

    something to add an extra +x hit/damage of your blasts if you are subject to a matching energy attack in the last round maybe?

    as others have said, looking forward to monk/kineticist rogue/kineticist and cleric/kineticist archetypes too :)


    Harrison wrote:
    Protoman wrote:
  • Obviously if the pyro takes a move action to move 30 ft forward and then takes a standard action to flame jet straight up 30 ft, he ends his turn in mid-air, and doesn't fall until his next turn where he gets to use flame jet to avoid falling.
    BUT, what if he uses the flame jet standard action first, and move action to draw a weapon or something afterwards? After the flame jet, he hasn't ended his turn yet as he still has an action left, does he hang in the air or drop down like a rock? If it's the latter, can one simply flame jet up, declare turn over (and give up other actions) and stay in the air?
  • Don't think of it as "which action did you use first", think of it as "did you use the action at all?". If you used the action that round to keep yourself in the air, you're in the air in the spot you ended up at (be it because you stayed in one place or moved) until the next round.

    Yea that's how I'm planning to interpret as well, though for PFS I'll hopefully keep that kind of thing to a minimum to avoid any lengthy rules discussions.

    Harrison wrote:
    Protoman wrote:
  • Flame Jet just says the pyro is propelled up to 60 feet in a straight line. That's obviously more limiting than flight which allows one to turn or maneuver in general. However flight involves actual movement with a fly speed and flame jet doesn't. Does flame jet simply propel the pyro from point A to point B with no regards to encumbrance/load? I'm wondering if I can carry others on my back or in my arms and simply propel us 60 feet horizontally or 30 feet upwards. If I can, then the previous question of whether I drop down after flame jetting as my first action becomes DOUBLY important!
  • This one needs Mark's official ruling, since the ability doesn't say anything about weight.

    Right. I guess the only precedent I can think of would be if Bladed Dash still moves one 30 feet if encumbered or not.


    I probably missed a lot of details in the past hundred or so pages but has there been any word about a "jedi" archetype?

    I am picturing WIS to AC, start with Kinetic Blade and some class abilities to swift action activiate and indefinetely sustain it but lose access to talents that extend blast ranges and blasts in general have to be taken with extra talents. A slower talent growth but class abilities to take burn to self-haste, a scaling bonus to acrobatics, maybe access to precise strike? also, some limited use/accuracy divination powers would be pretty sweet.


    Another thing i may have missed in the conversation, can you take kinetic blade with slashing grace? if so would you have to choose between manifesting a light finessable weapon or a one hand handed dex to damage weapon or can you use dex to both?


    Torbyne wrote:

    I probably missed a lot of details in the past hundred or so pages but has there been any word about a "jedi" archetype?

    I am picturing WIS to AC, start with Kinetic Blade and some class abilities to swift action activiate and indefinetely sustain it but lose access to talents that extend blast ranges and blasts in general have to be taken with extra talents. A slower talent growth but class abilities to take burn to self-haste, a scaling bonus to acrobatics, maybe access to precise strike? also, some limited use/accuracy divination powers would be pretty sweet.

    The problem I see with that sort of archetype is that the abilities don't tie into each other. It's just a grab bag of magical powers.


    Milo v3 wrote:
    Torbyne wrote:

    I probably missed a lot of details in the past hundred or so pages but has there been any word about a "jedi" archetype?

    I am picturing WIS to AC, start with Kinetic Blade and some class abilities to swift action activiate and indefinetely sustain it but lose access to talents that extend blast ranges and blasts in general have to be taken with extra talents. A slower talent growth but class abilities to take burn to self-haste, a scaling bonus to acrobatics, maybe access to precise strike? also, some limited use/accuracy divination powers would be pretty sweet.

    The problem I see with that sort of archetype is that the abilities don't tie into each other. It's just a grab bag of magical powers.

    i was thinking of it as using elemental energies to fuel the body rather than acting as a conduit to emit energies out. I can certainly see using electricity, air, aether or fire to increase the speed of your movements, number of attacks or acrobatics and Mark brought up earth flowing like sand. In line with keeping the energies closer to you is the loss of long range blasting but faster and longer duration activation of a kinetic blade. WIS to ac i can see as not directly connected unless its the flavour of the class; using monk like meditative training to learn control of energy resulting in similiar defensive insights but the class isnt exactly hurting for AC as is.

    It would also just be a great chassis to play a Jedi like character without going Magus, the current go to for that kind of concept. Likewise it would be a fun way to bring in a Soulblade like character from the old psionic stuff. I know DSP has a soulblade but ive had bad luck finding groups that run with 3rd party products :\


    Torbyne wrote:
    I know DSP has a soulblade but ive had bad luck finding groups that run with 3rd party products :\

    Ask them why they play Pathfinder then, considering the fact that Paizo is a company that started off publishing the Dragon and Dungeon magazines and worked as a 3rd party publisher for years before they released the Pathfinder system, which itself is considered 3rd party to Dungeons and Dragons.

    If they don't want to use 3rd party, why are they even here?


    Tels wrote:
    Torbyne wrote:
    I know DSP has a soulblade but ive had bad luck finding groups that run with 3rd party products :\

    Ask them why they play Pathfinder then, considering the fact that Paizo is a company that started off publishing the Dragon and Dungeon magazines and worked as a 3rd party publisher for years before they released the Pathfinder system, which itself is considered 3rd party to Dungeons and Dragons.

    If they don't want to use 3rd party, why are they even here?

    I know the history, so did the last few GMs i played with, but it was still an issue. Its one of those "it is what it is" things for a lot of people. Im in a new area now and looking for a new group of players, maybe i'll have better luck here. Either way, i still think this class is a great basis for melee oriented archetypes. Fingers crossed!

    Designer

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    Tels wrote:
    Torbyne wrote:
    I know DSP has a soulblade but ive had bad luck finding groups that run with 3rd party products :\

    Ask them why they play Pathfinder then, considering the fact that Paizo is a company that started off publishing the Dragon and Dungeon magazines and worked as a 3rd party publisher for years before they released the Pathfinder system, which itself is considered 3rd party to Dungeons and Dragons.

    If they don't want to use 3rd party, why are they even here?

    The thing of PFRPG is that a group together (or sometimes just the GM, but in my group, we work together) needs to put limits on what gets into the game; they just do, at some level or another. You can't just allow anything that any player or GM found anywhere without limit, or there's going to be huge issues.

    Personally, like you, I think that picking and choosing from among all publishers (yes, including not allowing some stuff from Paizo) is the best option for every group that is skilled enough at picking and choosing to do so in a consistent way that works for the group's current campaign (and has enough time to think about each element), but many groups would rather create a rule of thumb that doesn't require checking each new book as it comes out and just automatically decides for them. And that's where such rules come from. For those groups, it's not personal; it's just about drawing a line that seems natural, and "Paizo only" seems natural to them.


    Tels wrote:
    So, fans of the Kineticst have some work ahead of them... How best do we use the Kineticist to make a team of Power Rangers? Including the Megazord? Perhaps some sort of homebrewed Variant Multiclass Synthesist Summoner that has the special ability to merge together into a Colossoal sized Eidolon?

    Are you high, Claire?


    Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
    Tels wrote:
    So, fans of the Kineticst have some work ahead of them... How best do we use the Kineticist to make a team of Power Rangers? Including the Megazord? Perhaps some sort of homebrewed Variant Multiclass Synthesist Summoner that has the special ability to merge together into a Colossoal sized Eidolon?
    Are you high, Claire?

    If love for the kineticist counts as a drug... then yes.


    i hadnt thought of making power rangers out of them but there should definetley be high fantasy ghostbusters coming out of this book.

    ooh, or a good module where you play hydrokineticists in high risk fire fighting. Maybe you are on the city's payroll and are tasked with clean up and recovery from adventuring parties and the after effects of their visits?


    Obviously missing something here, but can someone please explain why DEX in a key stat.? Is it used for the attack rolls where CON is used for damage?


    That seems logical. They are a class about going pewpew, and not all of their blasts are ranged touch.


    Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

    Yup. It doesn't matter how much damage you do when you hit if you can't hit in the first place.


    So I assume then it is d20+BAB+DEX for hit?


    Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
    Raikoukai wrote:
    So I assume then it is d20+BAB+DEX for hit?

    It is a ranged attack, so yes. If it's a melee attack (such as kinetic blade/fist/whip), you would, barring certain feats, utilize Strength instead.


    Thanks for the help.


    So what Feats would people recommend for the Kineticist?
    I read earlier that 'Deadly Aim' would work but I'm unsure about what others.
    I'm relatively new to Pathfinder & so don't really know the feats that well.
    Any suggestions are much appreciated.


    Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

    Well, honestly, I would personally recommend waiting until Occult Adventures comes out, which will probably have a lot of feats actually designed for the kineticist. I will note, however, that Deadly Aim only works on ranged attacks that don't target touch AC, which means it functions for some kinds of kinetic blasts (like earth or water) but not others (like ice or fire). Point-Blank Shot and Precise Shot are also certainly something to consider.

    Designer

    Raikoukai wrote:

    So what Feats would people recommend for the Kineticist?

    I read earlier that 'Deadly Aim' would work but I'm unsure about what others.
    I'm relatively new to Pathfinder & so don't really know the feats that well.
    Any suggestions are much appreciated.

    Kineticists do so much damage in only one attack that Deadly Aim is usually not increasing your expected damage (while also making your damage less consistent), so I wouldn't recommend it unless you happen to know you'll be getting plenty of support, like a bard. Even then, it still may be a close call.


    well if you are going to sit their and tell us what feats dont work, why not go ahead and tease some new feats from the book?

    Designer

    Torbyne wrote:
    well if you are going to sit their and tell us what feats dont work, why not go ahead and tease some new feats from the book?

    Oh it still works on the final kineticist; I just don't think it's a good choice.


    Not even with the "Flurry of Blasts" that might maybe be in there?


    Lanitril wrote:
    Not even with the "Flurry of Blasts" that might maybe be in there?

    I'm guessing there is some limit to how much damage it can add, maybe each blast only carries a fraction of the bonus damage or only one blast in the flurry gets the extra.


    Torbyne wrote:
    Lanitril wrote:
    Not even with the "Flurry of Blasts" that might maybe be in there?
    I'm guessing there is some limit to how much damage it can add, maybe each blast only carries a fraction of the bonus damage or only one blast in the flurry gets the extra.

    That's plausible. Or maybe deadly aim just in general is bad for people without full bab. Now that I think about it.


    Hey Mark, mind answering a question? (I mean, one more XD) I'm wrapping my head around if kinetic blade can be used to dual wield. Like, creating 2 kinetc blade in the same full attack action. I'd like to finally have an official way of building my zealot, without having to resort to 3pp for the soulknife.

    Silver Crusade

    Sooooo.....

    Foe Throw + non flying foe + tall cliff = ker-splat?


    Mystic_Snowfang wrote:

    Sooooo.....

    Foe Throw + non flying foe + tall cliff = ker-splat?

    Foe Throw will be very fun on bridge and volcano encounters.


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    I dont care if it wrecks my BBEG's plot exposition, if someone foe throws him into a volcano with the same nonchalance as Indiana Jones refusing to get into a sword fight the party wins.


    Torbyne wrote:
    I dont care if it wrecks my BBEG's plot exposition, if someone foe throws him into a volcano with the same nonchalance as Indiana Jones refusing to get into a sword fight the party wins.

    This is one of my goals of life.

    That or at least teaming up with someone with a "brace" weapon and throw them into it.
    which i guess raw doens't really work.. but my gms would probably go for it


    That's really one of the things I love about the Kineticist, it has so much Cool Stuff you get to do without having to spend spell slots to do it. There's a sense of narrative power that you really don't get with classes who are designed for whackin' stuff.


    Ellias Aubec wrote:
    Per the weight restriction - I asked this before and Mark stated that encumbrance has no impact on the speed you can travel with it. Unlike the air version which acts like flight with the associated weight restrictions.

    Thanks Ellias Aubec! I remembered asking that question before and you confirming it but TOTALLY DITZED OUT and forgot about it. WIth your confirmation I eventually found Mark's reply (wow all the way back in October) so that I can reference it if need be in PFS.


    Heh... heh...

    One could totally make a man from Cheliax that works on the water and irrigation system with a unique talent for shooting fireballs and jumping really high...

    This is what happens when he goes for maximum Burn.

    Grand Lodge

    I am playing an Aetherkinestsist, Areokinetesist, Terrakinetiesist (vote for Geo-), and a Hydrokinetesist (well, he's in the works, though I have yet to cast dice).

    One of the things that I truly love about this class is that the elements actually match up. Earth has so long been associated with Acid, and air with lightning, water with cold that it is reliving to see earth meaning earth and so forth. Thank you for that...now to my disruption in the Kinetics:

    I have noticed that there is an innate balance in all of the blasts...except Aetherkinetsism. The Terra- does not allow for touch AC, and Pyro- does not allow to bypass SR, but Aether- requires use of an object to fling, and cannot--simly, mind you--directly effect enemies.


    Rocky MakLoud wrote:

    I am playing an Aetherkinestsist, Areokinetesist, Terrakinetiesist (vote for Geo-), and a Hydrokinetesist (well, he's in the works, though I have yet to cast dice).

    One of the things that I truly love about this class is that the elements actually match up. Earth has so long been associated with Acid, and air with lightning, water with cold that it is reliving to see earth meaning earth and so forth. Thank you for that...now to my disruption in the Kinetics:

    I have noticed that there is an innate balance in all of the blasts...except Aetherkinetsism. The Terra- does not allow for touch AC, and Pyro- does not allow to bypass SR, but Aether- requires use of an object to fling, and cannot--simly, mind you--directly effect enemies.

    Aether is the one element that I think should have received two blasts from the very beginning. An unfocused blast targeting touch AC for half damage (or reduced damage at least), and the blast used in conjunction with an item.

    Using an item allows for finer control of your blast as you infuse the mass of the object with more energy, but you could always just telekinetically punch someone for damage, though it's weaker because there's no real mass behind it. Like using a telekinetic punch is less efficient in the consumption of energy, or something.


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    Plasma blast is inconsistent with the rules for plasma damage in the Technology Guide, where it states plasma weapons deal half-electricity and half-fire. Plasma blast deals half-bludgeoning and half-fire, which doesn't fit with the theme, since plasma is super-heated, electrically-charged (ionized, if you prefer the technical term) gas.


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    I also have a problem with the plasma blast not being actual plasma by the rules....unless the blast is boiling hot blood.

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