Does Precise Strike work with Arcane Deed?

[Renlar]

Assuming I have a Magus with "Flamboyant Arcana", can I take "Arcane Deed" for "Precise Stike"?

Flamboyant Arcana:

A magus gains the derring-do and opportune parry and riposte deeds from the swashbuckler’s list of deeds. The magus can spend points from his arcane
pool as panache points to use these deeds and any other deeds he gains from the deed arcana, but he cannot use points from his arcane pool to use deeds from other classes or those gained by feats, nor can he regain points to his arcane pool as a swashbuckler would regain panache points. Effects that add to, reduce the cost of, or otherwise affect panache or grit don’t affect the arcane pool of a magus with this arcana.

Arcane Deed:

When a magus takes this arcana, he can
pick any one deed from the swashbuckler class feature as long as that deed can be used by a swashbuckler of his magus level. The magus can use that deed by using points from his arcane pool as the panache points required for that deed. A magus can take this arcana multiple times, each time
gaining a new deed. The magus must have the flamboyant arcana to select this arcana.

Precise Strike:

At 3rd level, while she has at least 1 panache point, a swashbuckler gains the ability to strike precisely with a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon (though not natural weapon attacks), adding her swashbuckler level to the damage dealt. To use this deed, a swashbuckler cannot attack with a weapon in her other hand or use a shield other than a buckler. She can even use this ability with thrown light or onehanded piercing melee weapons, so long as the target is within 30 feet of her. Any creature that is immune to sneak attacks is immune to the additional damage granted by precise strike, and any item or ability that protects a creature from critical hits also protects a
creature from the additional damage of a precise strike.This additional damage is precision damage, and isn’t multiplied on a critical hit. As a swift action, a swashbuckler can spend 1 panache point to double her precise strike’s damage bonus on the next attack. This benefit must be used before the end of her turn, or it is lost. This deed’s cost cannot be reduced by any ability or effect that reduces the amount of panache points a deed costs (such as the Signature Deed feat).

I suspect that a strict interpretation would be that because Precise Strike specifies "Swashbuckler level" that the answer is 'no'.

Thoughts?

[Xethik]

If this does not work for the Magus, I suspect it would not work for a Daring Champion Cavalier. Which would be odd because it is specifically given to him.

That being said, I see no "treating his Swashbuckler level as his Magus level" so I'm not so sure.

[Renlar]

Xethik wrote:

If this does not work for the Magus, I suspect it would not work for a Daring Champion Cavalier. Which would be odd because it is specifically given to him.

That being said, I see no "treating his Swashbuckler level as his Magus level" so I'm not so sure.

You make a good point about the Daring Champion Cavalier, why explicitly give it to the character if it is useless.

I think this is a pretty good case of RAI, but I'll probably play it safe in PFS unless there is an FAQ or errata.

[pennywit]

One thing I can see ... is that the precise strike deed requires that you have at least 1 panache point. But if you're a magus, you don't have any panache.

[Dispari Scuro]

pennywit wrote:

One thing I can see ... is that the precise strike deed requires that you have at least 1 panache point. But if you're a magus, you don't have any panache.

Flamboyant arcana allows you to treat your arcane pool as panache and use it to accomplish deeds.

At any rate, I've been wondering about this myself. It's probably the best deed to pick up with this magus arcana, assuming it works. It doesn't say you count your level as swashbuckler, though.

Similarly, this is another good deed: "Evasive (Ex): At 11th level, while a swashbuckler has at least 1 panache point, she gains the benefits of the evasion, uncanny dodge, and improved uncanny dodge rogue class features. She uses her swashbuckler level as her rogue level for improved uncanny dodge."

So, the question is, do you count your magus levels as swashbuckler levels, which count as rogue levels? Or are you a "zero level rogue" for the purposes of improved uncanny dodge?

It's also possible the magus arcana only works with deeds you have to spend panache points on, and "passive" ones do not work. But it doesn't quite say that. So how DOES this work, exactly? I would really like a clarification.

[Rylden]

Im building a magus with these same Arcana, and would love some more info on this as well.

[Artanthos]

We would all like a lot of points clarified for the ACG. Quite a few FAQ requests have been submitted with no official response.

A second question regarding Magus and Precise Strike: does function while using spell combat?

[Paulicus]

Is there any reason why Precise strike and spell combat wouldn't work together? PS is passive, unless you mean spending a point to double the damage bonus, but that would only take up your swift action anyway. It's possible I'm missing something though.

FWIW, it seems clear to me that magus levels are supposed to be used as swashbuckler levels for these arcana. Though I admit that PS seems like such an overwhelmingly good choice for an ability like this, that I can't help but wonder if it was overlooked.

My magus is still grabbing it unless it's changed, though ;P

[kestral287]

The only reason Precise Strike + Spell Combat has been up for debate is because some people point to the language that Spell Combat is like Two Weapon Fighting, and thus continue it out to you have a 'weapon' (spell) in your off-hand and are attacking with it (probably) and thus you can't use Precise Strike.

To me it seems pretty clear that it's intended that you can, but I suppose Magus level = Swashbuckler level isn't specifically called out in that way.

[Dispari Scuro]

kestral287 wrote:

The only reason Precise Strike + Spell Combat has been up for debate is because some people point to the language that Spell Combat is like Two Weapon Fighting, and thus continue it out to you have a 'weapon' (spell) in your off-hand and are attacking with it (probably) and thus you can't use Precise Strike.

To me it seems pretty clear that it's intended that you can, but I suppose Magus level = Swashbuckler level isn't specifically called out in that way.

If Dervish Dance works with Spell Combat (which it does), then Precise Strike would. But that assumes that Precise Strike works with Arcane Deed, which isn't clear. It's entirely possible you count at as a level 0 swashbuckler and therefore add 0 damage to your attacks.

Paulicus wrote:

Is there any reason why Precise strike and spell combat wouldn't work together? PS is passive, unless you mean spending a point to double the damage bonus, but that would only take up your swift action anyway. It's possible I'm missing something though.

FWIW, it seems clear to me that magus levels are supposed to be used as swashbuckler levels for these arcana. Though I admit that PS seems like such an overwhelmingly good choice for an ability like this, that I can't help but wonder if it was overlooked.

My magus is still grabbing it unless it's changed, though ;P

Assuming you count as a swashbuckler, it's probably BY FAR the most powerful magus arcana. While most arcana are on the power level of "once a day you can reroll a concentration check," gaining your level to damage is extremely strong. Arcana are one of the most boring things about magus. In a lot of cases I would probably even be happier with a trait, and I generally just get a familiar because it actually does something. The most common build, a bladebound kensai, gives up two arcana and nobody really seems to care. Counting as a swashbuckler would probably make the arcana a no-brainer just due to the huge power and versatility it would have.

[kestral287]

Dispari Scuro wrote:

kestral287 wrote:

The only reason Precise Strike + Spell Combat has been up for debate is because some people point to the language that Spell Combat is like Two Weapon Fighting, and thus continue it out to you have a 'weapon' (spell) in your off-hand and are attacking with it (probably) and thus you can't use Precise Strike.

To me it seems pretty clear that it's intended that you can, but I suppose Magus level = Swashbuckler level isn't specifically called out in that way.

If Dervish Dance works with Spell Combat (which it does), then Precise Strike would. But that assumes that Precise Strike works with Arcane Deed, which isn't clear. It's entirely possible you count at as a level 0 swashbuckler and therefore add 0 damage to your attacks.

Preaching to the choir. I pointed out the Dervish Dance thing in another thread... which basically just turned into people insisting that Dervish Dance + Spell Combat isn't legal. Still.

On the primary subject, the way I read the Flamboyant Arcana/Arcane Deed, you're pretty much just supposed to replace every instance of 'panache' with 'arcane pool' and 'Swashbuckler' with 'Magus'... but that's not explicit, that's my reading. If this doesn't get a 'yes' I'll be shocked, because that'd make me wonder why the Daring Champion is explicitly given Precise Strike without a Cavalier level = Swash level note.

[Artanthos]

kestral287 wrote:

The only reason Precise Strike + Spell Combat has been up for debate is because some people point to the language that Spell Combat is like Two Weapon Fighting, and thus continue it out to you have a 'weapon' (spell) in your off-hand and are attacking with it (probably) and thus you can't use Precise Strike.

To me it seems pretty clear that it's intended that you can, but I suppose Magus level = Swashbuckler level isn't specifically called out in that way.

Any argument against magus level equating to swashbuckler level would be equally applicable to the daring cavalier. It would not be the the first time an archetype was given a useless ability (Titan Mauler), but would be very odd.

[Dispari Scuro]

kestral287 wrote:

Dispari Scuro wrote:

kestral287 wrote:

The only reason Precise Strike + Spell Combat has been up for debate is because some people point to the language that Spell Combat is like Two Weapon Fighting, and thus continue it out to you have a 'weapon' (spell) in your off-hand and are attacking with it (probably) and thus you can't use Precise Strike.

To me it seems pretty clear that it's intended that you can, but I suppose Magus level = Swashbuckler level isn't specifically called out in that way.

If Dervish Dance works with Spell Combat (which it does), then Precise Strike would. But that assumes that Precise Strike works with Arcane Deed, which isn't clear. It's entirely possible you count at as a level 0 swashbuckler and therefore add 0 damage to your attacks.

Preaching to the choir. I pointed out the Dervish Dance thing in another thread... which basically just turned into people insisting that Dervish Dance + Spell Combat isn't legal. Still.

On the primary subject, the way I read the Flamboyant Arcana/Arcane Deed, you're pretty much just supposed to replace every instance of 'panache' with 'arcane pool' and 'Swashbuckler' with 'Magus'... but that's not explicit, that's my reading. If this doesn't get a 'yes' I'll be shocked, because that'd make me wonder why the Daring Champion is explicitly given Precise Strike without a Cavalier level = Swash level note.

My assumption would be the magus does not count as a swashbuckler, but the daring champion does. If it's ruled another way, I would be fine with that. Just means my kensai is going to get a lot more powerful.

[kestral287]

Yeah, that was my point in mentioning Cavalier above. I could see (but would not be happy with) a GM arguing that RAW you don't get the bonus... but I would be incredibly surprised if we got an FAQ handed down saying no, your Swash level is 0 so it sucks to be you. I honestly can't see many GMs saying that either; it'd never crossed my mind until I read this thread.

[Artanthos]

Dispari Scuro wrote:

My assumption would be the magus does not count as a swashbuckler, but the daring champion does. If it's ruled another way, I would be fine with that. Just means my kensai is going to get a lot more powerful.

What is the difference, RAW, in the wording between how the ability is applied to the two classes?

[Dispari Scuro]

Artanthos wrote:

Dispari Scuro wrote:

My assumption would be the magus does not count as a swashbuckler, but the daring champion does. If it's ruled another way, I would be fine with that. Just means my kensai is going to get a lot more powerful.

What is the difference, RAW, in the wording between how the ability is applied to the two classes?

None, but I'm of course not discussing RAW, I'm just saying how I assume they were designed and intended. The daring champion clearly uses it as a core class ability, and is given it directly, and clearly meant to be able to use it. The magus gets it from an ability which, by and large, has very weak and crappy bonuses. If they're intended to count as a swashbuckler, I'll be taking it on every magus I ever make.

[kestral287]

Daring Champion:

Quote:

Panache and Deeds (Ex)

At 4th level, a daring champion gains the swashbuckler's panache class feature, along with the following swashbuckler deeds: dodging panache, opportune parry and riposte, precise strike, and swashbuckler initiative.

Arcane Deed:

Quote:

Benefit(s) When a magus takes this arcana, he can pick any one deed from the swashbuckler class feature as long as that deed can be used by a swashbuckler of his magus level. The magus can use that deed by using points from his arcane pool as the panache points required for that deed. A magus can take this arcana multiple times, each time gaining a new deed.

The major difference is in application. A Daring Champion automatically gets Precise Strike, period. A Magus has to go out of their way no less than three times for it (drop an Arcana on Flamboyant Arcana instead of anything else, drop a second Arcana on Arcane Deed instead of anything else, then pick Precise Strike for the Deed itself). So, there's really not a lot of ground to argue that the Daring Champion wasn't intended to get Precise Strike as a functional tool, because every DC has to get it. But you can argue that Arcane Deed was meant for other deeds and not intended to be used for a Precise Strike Magus.

So, there's wiggle room for RAI to be 'yes to Daring Champion, no to Magus'. It's a tight space to wiggle through though, so good luck.

That said, the wording of the abilities is very similar but not quite the same. Daring Champion "gains the following Swashbuckler deeds: Precise Strike". Magus "can use [Precise Strike]". Fundamentally, no real difference... and more to the point, neither one has any language stating that they treat their levels as Swashbuckler levels. There are differences, but they don't feel like fundamental ones that would affect what the RAW actually says.

[stealthymonkeyman]

Where looking at precise strike only but there are other incredible deeds that make the magus hit more accurately and harder and increases ac. The Magus just got a major power up in ACG why would I ever play a fighter again.

[stealthymonkeyman]

Mind you I would never play a fighter but between nimble, evasive, precise strike and swashbuckler weapon training what more does one need. I can reliably hit as hard as a fighter, have good(not great) AC and I can cast spells, what's not to love. But fighter was always boring anyways not a huge loss.

[kestral287]

Some fun facts about the Magus, Arcane Deed, and the Swashbuckler.

-The Magus can only take deeds, meaning it cannot take Nimble or Swashbuckler Weapon Training
-Thus, the only AC boosting ability that the Magus can get off of Arcane Deed is Dodging Panache. Because this ability is Cha-based, it only works for Eldritch Scions-- the archetype least able to afford spending their Arcane Pool Points on Deeds/Arcanas anyway. The Magus also has pretty much always had an arcana for Int-to-AC for a round, so this is nothing really new beyond the ability to (situationally) avoid full attacks. The Swashbuckler's best survival Deeds avoid damage outright instead of boosting AC (And the Magus gets the really nice one by default).
-Similarly, no Deed can let the Magus hit more accurately without also reducing their damage output. Perfect Thrust is really the only one, by letting you hit Touch AC. The Magus can be hitting Touch AC with their attacks six levels earlier if they want and can afford to be hemorrhaging Pool points. Alternatively, Arcane Accuracy is cheaper for +Int to hit and is available from level 3.
-There is no Deed other than Precise Strike that offers damage augmentation. Bleeding Wound can... but, in a similar vein to the previous notes, the Magus got access to Arcane Edge two levels earlier. Which one is better depends on how stats are spread, though I generally favor Bleeding Wound for being a free action. You could sort-of argue that Deadly Stab is damage augmentation? But... at level 19, anything in melee range of the Magus is probably dead anyway, and Deadly Stab is amusingly unreliable.

On the Fighter, Mutation Warrior is hilariously awesome. Just saying.

[Corwin Illum]

This would be the most powerful thing a magus could do with their arcana. I'd rule your level would be 0.

And I have a kensai bladebound magus as my main character. I'd say "no" but flagging for FAQ

[FrodoOf9Fingers]

Corwin Illum wrote:

This would be the most powerful thing a magus could do with their arcana. I'd rule your level would be 0.

And I have a kensai bladebound magus as my main character. I'd say "no" but flagging for FAQ

Saying something is against the rules because it's too good is not a good reason at all. I really dislike it when the gm spot nerfs things ie been planning my entire character around, and even suffered being the worst party member, and then told that, after all my waiting and suffering, that my character is too good and gets nerfed.

[Midnighter]

Why is Perfect Strike considered too powerful for a Magus but it is deemed ok for a Swashbuckler. The Magus has to burn 2 Arcana and wait until level 6 at the earliest to qualify for the deed whereas the Swashbuckler gets it automatically at level 3. I just don't see what the problem is with a Magus getting this deed and having it work off of his Magus level.

[kestral287]

Midnighter wrote:

Why is Perfect Strike considered too powerful for a Magus but it is deemed ok for a Swashbuckler. The Magus has to burn 2 Arcana and wait until level 6 at the earliest to qualify for the deed whereas the Swashbuckler gets it automatically at level 3. I just don't see what the problem is with a Magus getting this deed and having it work off of his Magus level.

I would assume because the Magus is packing a much better base chassis. Same reason a lot of people (myself included) say that the Daring Champion is better than the Swashbuckler.

That said, Precise Strike solves the exact same issue on all three classes: their normal damage output is mediocre because they're basically forced to one-hand.

[Midnighter]

And still, with Precise Strike at full power, they will pale in comparison to a full caster or archer

[Corwin Illum]

Midnighter wrote:

Why is Perfect Strike considered too powerful for a Magus but it is deemed ok for a Swashbuckler. The Magus has to burn 2 Arcana and wait until level 6 at the earliest to qualify for the deed whereas the Swashbuckler gets it automatically at level 3. I just don't see what the problem is with a Magus getting this deed and having it work off of his Magus level.

2 base reasons:

Magus can cast spells to augment damage.

swashbucklers can't duel wield

Let me start by saying i love the magus, it is by far my favorite class. I also like some level of optomization and power. But some take this just a step or two too far. This ability would be the said step.

Now if this DOES work for magus levels, the "holding a spell in the offhand" argument holds no weight.

What happens if a magus gets this arcana, it works for magus levels, then the magus multiclasses into swashbuckler. What happens with this ability then?

This also doesn't pass the "smell test" when you need to jump through hoops and dig into rulings. Even so, you need to go to RAI to get it to work. Raw, there is nothing about magus levels counting as Swashbuckler. If this does work, i would use it for every magus ever.

A magus can qualify as early as level 3, not level 6, just take extra arcana feat. I probably would do this. This ability is just THAT good.

As for "building your character around it" This just goes to show how powerful this ability is. I'm skeptical that one has built a character around it anyway, the ACG is too new. Or some kind of power leveling. A magus being built around this one arcana would just make this smell more foul.

[Caosbot]

Comparing with other classes, how many damage he will do? more or less?

[robert best 549]

At best it is a 20(or what ever your game caps out at) damage boost on all hits because the deed pumps the damage and for a point it is doubled.

[Revan]

And by 'dig into rulings' you mean 'make a common sense assumption', and by 'jump through hoops', you mean 'make a valid choice for an ability, and assume it isn't non-functional.' You have to use Magus level as Swashbuckler level to determine what deeds you can take; it's not remotely a huge leap to assume that it works that way for using the deeds.

[Caosbot]

All this for +lvl damage or double? Not that only.

[robert best 549]

Caosbot wrote:

All this for +lvl damage or double? Not that only.

Yep that is precisely what this is all about.

[_Ozy_]

As I've pointed out several times in the past, this sort of mistake shows up in other places. The Hexcrafter archetype for the Magus gets the Hex Magus ability at 4th level, which allows you to take a witch Hex and count your magus level as your witch level for that hex.

However, the Hex Arcana ability has no such language regarding level substitution, so barring the single Hex granted from the Hex Arcana ability, no other Hexes would actually work for the Hexcrafter.

So, using the same reasoning regarding RAW, the Hexcrafter just doesn't work. Or you could add a dash of common sense to your RAW.

[kestral287]

Caosbot wrote:

Comparing with other classes, how many damage he will do? more or less?

Before crits and accuracy, it's roughly equivalent to another character with the same strength (and no other damage amplifiers) two-handing and Power Attacking. Crits favor the two-hander much more, unless the Shocking Grasp Spellstrike attack is the one that crits.

Overall it bumps the Magus' damage close to that of straight martials but not quite on par, pre-Spell Combat. Certainly not Barbarian levels, maybe more like Ranger without Favored Enemy.

In terms of damage output of classes with Precise Strike, at most levels it goes Daring Champion -> Magus -> Swashbuckler, assuming the Daring Champion is challenging and the Magus is using a Touch spell.

[Angel Hunter D]

Didn't see anyone post this link yet, it cleared the ambiguity up for me in my post so i figure i should share it here where all the FAQ clicks are.

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ln8z?Can-a-Life-Oracle-with-Channeling-take#30

that post is from a guy who designed a few things in pathfinder, and it basically boils down to "if an ability has the same name it works the same way for everyone who has it, if it was supposed to be different we'd call it something different" (and if you try to finagle about it being arcane deed and not just deed, it grants a deed with no caveats aside from appropriate level) He was using channeling as a specific example, but i don't see why it wouldn't apply to precise strike and arcane deed. What I'm seeing there is that deeds should scale of magus level, even when it says "swashbuckler level" because "arcane deed" gives you a "deed" as a class feature, and since that class feature is given by a class feature (arcana) in your Magus class they scale off of Magus level

[Caosbot]

If they can't use spell combat with precise strike, is the same with dervish dancer feat!

[baradakas]

Just looking at the three class abilities listed in the original post, it is certainly clear that the panache points specifically required by Precise Strike is converted to a requirement for arcane pool points by Arcane Deed. Further, the Swashbuckler levels required by Precise Strike are likewise converted to Magus levels by Arcane Deed.

Nothing in Precise Strike allows such conversions, they are all provided by Arcane Deed. The Magus abilities are granting Swashbuckler abilities and altering them. The Magus levels clearly are used as Swashbuckler levels for Precise Strike.

[WombattheDaniel]

Agreed. Why would they give the Magus Flamboyant Arcana and Arcane Deed and say that he could select any swashbuckler deed if there were any hang-ups? To troll the entire Paizo community?

I think people are reading into this too much. Just take it at face value. Obviously the developers intended that Precise Strike and every other Deed are meant to work together with The Magus' class abilities and functions, as long as they take Flamboyant Arcana, Arcane Deed, and are meeting any other requirements for them (using a light or one-handed piercing weapon, for example).

[Duskblade]

Ya know, after looking at the abilities, I've recently come to the conclusion that the magus can't use deeds like 'precise strike' or 'evasive', and here's why...

The magus doesn't actually have Panache Points.

It says in the abilities that he can use his arcane pool points as panache points to activate the abilities, but nothing actually gives the magus panache points to begin with. Therefore, since his arcane pool can only be used to 'activate' these deeds (by spending them in place of panache points), deeds like evasive and precise strike won't work since they specifically require panache points to work.

[kestral287]

Magus takes Amateur Swashbuckler; problem solved.

On a more serious note, that point's been gone over with a fine-tooth comb. It basically boils down to people who figure the ACG was just edited poorly and the ability is supposed to work as intended and people who don't.

[NikolaiJuno]

Duskblade wrote:

Ya know, after looking at the abilities, I've recently come to the conclusion that the magus can't use deeds like 'precise strike' or 'evasive', and here's why...

The magus doesn't actually have Panache Points.

It says in the abilities that he can use his arcane pool points as panache points to activate the abilities, but nothing actually gives the magus panache points to begin with. Therefore, since his arcane pool can only be used to 'activate' these deeds (by spending them in place of panache points), deeds like evasive and precise strike won't work since they specifically require panache points to work.

It doesn't say anything about activating or spending.

Arcane Deed wrote:

Benefit(s) When a magus takes this arcana, he can pick any one deed from the swashbuckler class feature as long as that deed can be used by a swashbuckler of his magus level. The magus can use that deed by using points from his arcane pool as the panache points required for that deed. A magus can take this arcana multiple times, each time gaining a new deed.

A passive use is still a use.

[Caosbot]

Hey people i found this post from Sean:

Click here!

"The "TWF" aspect of spell combat is that your "off hand attack" is actually a spell you're casting, and isn't a weapon attack, and therefore is irrelevant (and distracting) to the question about how many weapon attacks you get when using spell combat."

If isn't a weapon attack, you can Spell combat+ Spell strike + Precise strike.

[Caosbot]

nobody?

[Entryhazard]

Yes it would work in conjunction with spell combat (although I doubt the precision damage of the deed can be applied to the spell damage), but the crux of the matter is still whether or not magus level counts as swashbuckler level for the purpose of deeds gained with arcane deed

[kestral287]

Entryhazard wrote:

Yes it would work in conjunction with spell combat (although I doubt the precision damage of the deed can be applied to the spell damage), but the crux of the matter is still whether or not magus level counts as swashbuckler level for the purpose of deeds gained with arcane deed

Precise Strike's damage doesn't apply to your spell, no. No spell fits the requirements.

But that's kind of irrelevant because you just cast a touch spell, deliver via Spellstrike, and your precision damage is added to your weapon damage that's inflicted along with the spell.

As for the level thing... my response is the same as it's always been. Look at the Daring Champion.

[BadBird]

It's quite possible - and even probable - that it's intended to work with Magus levels counting as Swashbuckler levels. But since, even without a level clause, Arcane Deed is still perfectly functional for the vast majority of Swashbuckler deeds that people couldn't care less about, it's not possible to extrapolate clear intent like it would be for something like Daring Champion. If it wasn't so massively appealing it would probably just be ignored as an 'oh well that's silly RAW what are you gonna do?' quirk, but with the ability to grab level-to-damage with the most popular Magus builds it will remain a fierce issue until there are words from on high.

[kestral287]

If you're willing to say that the Daring Champion never explicitly getting Cavalier level = Swashbuckler level is an oversight that should be ignored because the RAI is clear, I'd think you'd need to have a very interesting argument to justify that missing the exact same text on the exact same ability was an intentional RAW decision instead of, well, an oversight that should be ignored. We either assume that the devs didn't edit the book properly on the whole or we assume that they didn't edit the book properly in some places and did in others and the result was two identical missing pieces of text that are missing for entirely different reasons.

And actually Arcane Deed falls apart on the second-best Deed too, in that Evasive loses its luster (it actually has a lot of the same problems as Precise Strike). The rest of the Deeds just kind of... suck.

[BadBird]

kestral287 wrote:

If you're willing to say that the Daring Champion never explicitly getting Cavalier level = Swashbuckler level is an oversight that should be ignored because the RAI is clear, I'd think you'd need to have a very interesting argument to justify that missing the exact same text on the exact same ability was an intentional RAW decision instead of, well, an oversight that should be ignored.

Developer: "Hey hold on, letting people plunder a class-defining Swashbuckler ability that's only otherwise available on a Cavalier that gives up their mount seems a little bit much... oh wait, just leave off a level clause so the really OP grabs don't work."

Don't get me wrong, if I had to guess, that's probably not what it was. But it's certainly plausible enough.

kestral287 wrote:

The rest of the Deeds just kind of... suck.

And we come to the crux of the matter.

[Issac Daneil]

I like it; it's not a weapon attack, because it's not a weapon, it has no impact on being considered carrying or wielding a weapon in your off hand.

I believe I've seen an FAQ response that addresses when a feature is being used by another class, and it ruled in favor of "Acting as a X of your Y class level for this ability" was not necessary text; it should always be applicable.

[LoneKnave]

BadBird wrote:

kestral287 wrote:

If you're willing to say that the Daring Champion never explicitly getting Cavalier level = Swashbuckler level is an oversight that should be ignored because the RAI is clear, I'd think you'd need to have a very interesting argument to justify that missing the exact same text on the exact same ability was an intentional RAW decision instead of, well, an oversight that should be ignored.

Developer: "Hey hold on, letting people plunder a class-defining Swashbuckler ability that's only otherwise available on a Cavalier that gives up their mount seems a little bit much... oh wait, just leave off a level clause so the really OP grabs don't work."

Don't get me wrong, if I had to guess, that's probably not what it was. But it's certainly plausible enough.

kestral287 wrote:

The rest of the Deeds just kind of... suck.

And we come to the crux of the matter.

So... they used the same/similar wording (as the cavalier is also missing the level clause) for different intents...?

Are you sure that's what you want to say? Because it doesn't make you look particularly causal.

[BadBird]

LoneKnave wrote:

So... they used the same/similar wording (as the cavalier is also missing the level clause) for different intents...?

Are you sure that's what you want to say? Because it doesn't make you look particularly causal.

I'm saying that just because it was clearly a mistake in one case doesn't in any way prove that it's a mistake in another, even if it might suggest that that is the likely call. I really don't care personally and would guess that it will be ruled to work. I'm just being objective about the difference between "that's unquestionably an error, and intended to work" and "that's quite possibly an error, so dammit it works". That's all. I knew I shouldn't have bothered getting into it in the first place...