Concerning Pax in the Land Rush


Pathfinder Online

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Goblin Squad Member

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I thought if you hadn't voted, GW said you could put your support wherever you wanted?
Disclaimer: Already voted here for TEO. Just wanted to make sure I understood what was/wasn't allowed.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

<Magistry> Toombstone wrote:
Why is this thread suddenly about TEO/T7V? Start another thread if you think there's funny business there.

To answer the question:

Bluddwolf wrote:

A controversy not sparked by UNC!? Now this thread will never break 300 posts before midnight!

That is unless Xeen really gets on a roll!

Where is Qallz when you need him? Oh wait, he only comes out after a list or two are deleted.

Goblin Squad Member

Lol, Nihimon, you admitted it then ninja edited your post to make it sound different.

I will not tell you who told me this. Doesnt matter past that, noone is required to believe me.

Either way, it does not matter if you are doing it. I do not care, as far as I (and GW) am concerned you have the right to do it... so long as they didnt vote for you before.

Goblin Squad Member

THANKS BLUDDWOLF. GEEZ THAT UNC.

Stealing our stuff in game isn't enough, they have to steal threads too

Goblin Squad Member

<Magistry> Toombstone wrote:

THANKS BLUFFWOLF. GEEZ THAT UNC.

Stealing our stuff in game isn't enough, they have to steal threads too

Are you admitting that you are the No Named Alt Op?

Goblin Squad Member

Aleron wrote:

I thought if you hadn't voted, GW said you could put your support wherever you wanted?

Disclaimer: Already voted here for TEO. Just wanted to make sure I understood what was/wasn't allowed.

You are correct

Goblin Squad Member

<Magistry> Toombstone wrote:
Why is this thread suddenly about TEO/T7V? Start another thread if you think there's funny business there.

Because Archanjel was going after Golgotha for doing what I heard his own group was doing.

Which is completely acceptable.

Now Xeen says "Let this thread die."

Goblin Squad Member

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<Magistry> Toombstone wrote:

THANKS BLUDDWOLF. GEEZ THAT UNC.

Stealing our stuff in game isn't enough, they have to steal threads too

Oh no, trust me, I'm not trying to steal this. I can actually sit back and watch the chaos unfold, and I have nothing to do with it.

Perhaps we need a Land Rush Accord?

Goblin Squad Member

Bluddwolf wrote:
Perhaps we need a Land Rush Accord?

How about a no more accords accord

Xeen wrote:
Are you admitting that you are the No Named Alt Op?

Uh swing and a miss :P

Goblin Squad Member

<Magistry> Toombstone wrote:
Bluddwolf wrote:
Perhaps we need a Land Rush Accord?
How about a no more accords accord

The Mother of All Accords, to End All Accords!

Goblin Squad Member

Xeen wrote:
Lol, Nihimon, you admitted it then ninja edited your post to make it sound different.

I'm quite willing to trust that the community knows whom to believe.

Goblin Squad Member

This process isn't going to be perfect, Goblinworks said so themselves. The Rosbelood Accord has gone out of its way to play by the rules and Pax gaming has also done the right thing by playing for Golgotha but not for Fidelis.

Let this thread die, the Devs have better things to do.

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
Xeen wrote:
Lol, Nihimon, you admitted it then ninja edited your post to make it sound different.
I'm quite willing to trust that the community knows whom to believe.

I wouldnt have said "Thanks Nihimon" to your edited post.

Goblin Squad Member

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Xeen wrote:

@ArchAnjel...

Am I mistaken in that... TEO and T7V are both trying to get friendlies into positions near their settlements by helping them with votes? I could have sworn I hear that somewhere... Maybe it was on TS. Not with people who have already voted for either, but with new votes.

TEO is trying to get friendlies into positions near our settlements by helping them with recruitment. We were considering the ability to leverage previously non-votes in such a way, but after hearing the complete spirit of the rules we have decided that such is not in that spirit and thus we decided not to pursue that angle. It was considered, but is not being done. Our aid is through endorsement and diplomacy and that is all.

That being said, I do remember Golgotha as a separate entity. In my opinion, the current actions are in a bit of a grey area but I do not feel it is my position to make a judgement call. As for where the mistake was made, it was a marketing and advertising mistake. In effort to mutually draw players into the Pax gaming organization, the two separate guilds began marketing and identifying themselves as Pax. This brings a sense of unity to the minds of onlooking players and a sense of a larger and more active organization. This branding has now shown itself to be a double-edged sword as that same view of unity is causing damage in the court of public opinion over the fairness of the land rush. It is for this reason that while I will not condemn the actions taken, I can neither defend them. The developers will handle making that decision, and I will respect whichever way they decide. There really are two sides to this story, and both sides have areas where they are right.

Goblin Squad Member

Xeen wrote:
Because Archanjel was going after Golgotha for doing what I heard his own group was doing.

You heard wrong.

"Ryan Dancey" wrote:
The last question we got involves members of a winning Phase I guild who did not vote in the Phase I poll. Technically, these people are free to participate in the Phase II promotion by affiliating themselves with another guild. The temptation to use this exception as a way to create a shadow guild to snag two (or more) spots in the Land Rush will be high, and we strongly urge you not to do so. If you don't plan to play as a member of another guild, we'd ask that you just not participate in Phase II of the land rush.

This is exactly what is going on and what Ryan specifically warned against. Caleth at least, though I doubt he is the only one, clearly stated that he planned to play as a member of Aeternum and was instead told to vote for Golgotha so Pax could snag two spots in the Land Rush. I mean, that is exactly what Ryan asked people not to do and advised us all to use our discretion and best judgment.

Instead, we now see statements like

"Pax Morbis" wrote:
If the developers decide that Golgotha is going against the letter of the rules, then they can tell us.

That's exactly the point, don't you see? The "letter of the rules" was, out of necessity, left somewhat undefined. And because of that, the "letter of the rules" is being gamed in a manner contrary to the spirit of the rules.

At this point, I've had my say. I've made my position known and request that the developers take a close look at what has happened. I trust they will make whatever decision they feel best for the success of their game.

Goblin Squad Member

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TEO ArchAnjel wrote:
At this point, I've had my say. I've made my position known and request that the developers take a close look at what has happened. I trust they will make whatever decision they feel best for the success of their game.

We've already talked with the developers about this exact thing. Ask Ryan. He and I PM'd about it two weeks ago. So did he and Charlie George. Ryan said, and I quote:

"I'm not going to tell you that Golgatha can't be on the leaderboard. I can't and won't put myself into the position of trying to untangle the various organizational structures of the 3rd parties that are going to be a part of our community."

I hesitate to even post that much of our discussion and I hope he doesn't mind.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Pax Rawn wrote:
TEO ArchAnjel wrote:
At this point, I've had my say. I've made my position known and request that the developers take a close look at what has happened. I trust they will make whatever decision they feel best for the success of their game.

We've already talked with the developers about this exact thing. Ask Ryan. He and I PM'd about it two weeks ago. So did he and Charlie George. Ryan said, and I quote:

"I'm not going to tell you that Golgatha can't be on the leaderboard. I can't and won't put myself into the position of trying to untangle the various organizational structures of the 3rd parties that are going to be a part of our community."

I hesitate to even post that much of our discussion and I hope he doesn't mind.

Thanks for that Rawn. Perhaps it would help if you clarified the role that you hold regarding Golgatha and Aeternum, because that is still confusing to me.

Goblin Squad Member

So Pax absorbed Golgotha to win the first land rush and now they are funneling votes to set Golgotha up as a Pax settlement? Is that the result of a secret deal Golgotha made when they joined Pax , that Pax would help you later to get your own settlement , it sure looks that way because that is what you are doing. Good thing you are left to police your own ethics , so you can get away with it.

Goblin Squad Member

I have no role in Aeternum or Golgotha as it relates to PFO. I'm just the leader of Pax gaming itself. Charlie George is the leader of Aeternum, Deacon is the leader of Golgotha, they run the guilds themselves and sit on the Pax gaming Inner Sanctum, sort of a board of directors for the overall Pax gaming Community.

Pax gaming isn't one guild, we're several guilds joined together under a common Community Charter: http://www.paxgaming.com/index.php?wiki/pax-gaming-charter/

Each GM is responsible for running his or her own guild, outside of the Community level affairs.

Goblin Squad Member

Notmyrealname wrote:
So Pax absorbed Golgotha to win the first land rush and now they are funneling votes to set Golgotha up as a Pax settlement? Is that the result of a secret deal Golgotha made when they joined Pax , that Pax would help you later to get your own settlement , it sure looks that way because that is what you are doing. Good thing you are left to police your own ethics , so you can get away with it.

No, the Golgothans did not vote for Aeternum, they're already on the landrush as Maelstrom and The Bloody Hand. You an see their votes on the original poll.

EDIT: I was mistaken, TBH wasn't on the first Landrush. but, at any rate, none of them voted for Aeternum the first go around. Nobody who voted Aeternum on the first landrush can vote for anything other than Aeternum on this landrush. That's in the rules. Anyone who is voting Golgotha is someone who did not vote Aeternum and who spent $100 just like everyone else and can vote for whoever they want.

Goblin Squad Member

And House Karnath. Any Golgothans that voted for Aeturnum in the first land rush are barred from voting elsewhere this time around. There are maybe three of us, and we all did it by mistake. It's why my vote is currently on Aeturnum, which makes roster checks really difficult.

Goblin Squad Member

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Notmyrealname wrote:
So Pax absorbed Golgotha to win the first land rush and now they are funneling votes to set Golgotha up as a Pax settlement? Is that the result of a secret deal Golgotha made when they joined Pax , that Pax would help you later to get your own settlement , it sure looks that way because that is what you are doing. Good thing you are left to police your own ethics , so you can get away with it.

Thats a stack of nonsense. I believe Pax, T7V, and TEO are not using votes that were previously used in the last land rush. None of them would do that.

Golgotha is part of Pax gaming now. They were not before. Golgotha would have a settlement whether they joined Pax Gaming or not.

Goblin Squad Member

Notmyrealname wrote:
So Pax absorbed Golgotha to win the first land rush and now they are funneling votes to set Golgotha up as a Pax settlement? Is that the result of a secret deal Golgotha made when they joined Pax , that Pax would help you later to get your own settlement , it sure looks that way because that is what you are doing. Good thing you are left to police your own ethics , so you can get away with it.

What can you possibly be thinking there? You are ignoring everything that has been written in this thread and some others... How would Golgotha allying with Aeternum increase the number of votes available? No one that voted for Aeternum in the first draft is voting for Golgotha in this one.

Goblin Squad Member

Xeen wrote:

I believe Pax, T7V, and TEO are not using votes that were previously used in the last land rush. None of them would do that.

Thank you for saying that.

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
Xeen wrote:

I believe Pax, T7V, and TEO are not using votes that were previously used in the last land rush. None of them would do that.

Thank you for saying that.

I did say that before, but it was with everything else so was probably hard to see lol.

Goblin Squad Member

Pax Morbis wrote:
And House Karnath. Any Golgothans that voted for Aeturnum in the first land rush are barred from voting elsewhere this time around. There are maybe three of us, and we all did it by mistake. It's why my vote is currently on Aeturnum, which makes roster checks really difficult.
”Ryan Dancey” wrote:
The last question we got involves members of a winning Phase I guild who did not vote in the Phase I poll. Technically, these people are free to participate in the Phase II promotion by affiliating themselves with another guild. The temptation to use this exception as a way to create a shadow guild to snag two (or more) spots in the Land Rush will be high, and we strongly urge you not to do so. If you don't plan to play as a member of another guild, we'd ask that you just not participate in Phase II of the land rush.

The last bold point is key. If you have no plans of being I the same guild as you voted for in the first land rush, you are free to vote for your intended gaming guild in the second land rush.

Goblin Squad Member

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Notmyrealname wrote:
So Pax absorbed Golgotha to win the first land rush and now they are funneling votes to set Golgotha up as a Pax settlement? Is that the result of a secret deal Golgotha made when they joined Pax , that Pax would help you later to get your own settlement , it sure looks that way because that is what you are doing. Good thing you are left to police your own ethics , so you can get away with it.

Morbis and Uffda are the only two Golgothan votes for Aeternum that won Callambea. Those two are in this landrush under Aeternum also.

"Pax" didn't win the first land rush. A guild within Pax did. That guild was Aeternum... And it did so with negligible help from Golgotha. Two votes.

We are abiding by the rules.

And yes, we do police ourselves.

Pax has always been a community of multiple guilds. It started with six guilds in the same game back in 2001. It remains different guilds with different leadership. Those guild leaders collectively oversee the community known as Pax Gaming.

-Areks

Silver Crusade Goblin Squad Member

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As TEO's ambassador to Pax, I have access to some of their forums. They made it super clear that any member who voted for Aeturnum *should not* and *may not* vote for Golgotha. I fully believe that if there is an issue of people voting again, then Pax will fully investigate and handle it internally.

Goblin Squad Member

They would likely kick anyone who did so lol. They are pretty strict with their rules.

Goblin Squad Member

Xeen knows that first hand too. Has it been six months yet? ;)

Goblin Squad Member

Well , Pax should do well in PFO if you can get two settlements now , people will see that you are going to be a strong influence in the future. I guess I will stop stirring the pot to see what comes to the surface.

Goblin Squad Member

Notmyrealname wrote:
Well , Pax should do well in PFO if you can get two settlements now , people will see that you are going to be a strong influence in the future. I guess I will stop stirring the pot to see what comes to the surface.

I'm sure that would be appreciated, and Pax has been, is, and will continue to be up front and as transparent as possible. Those that have taken the time to get to know us on a more than casual level are a better testament of our character than any Paxian ever will be.

Goblin Squad Member

Pax Areks wrote:
Xeen knows that first hand too. Has it been six months yet? ;)

Lol, maybe more, let me see

(not that things have changed much lol)

CEO, Goblinworks

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Pax Rawn wrote:
I hesitate to even post that much of our discussion and I hope he doesn't mind.

That's a selective quote, and that kind of pisses me off. Ask next time before you put my private words into a public forum.

For the record, this is what I told you:

RyanD wrote:

Rawn, thanks for writing.

Let me begin by saying that Pax is exactly the kind of guild, and exactly the kind of people, we want engaged with Pathfinder Online. We are very very happy you've decided to engage with our project.

Let me explain my concerns so that we're both on the same page, and you can tell me if you think there's a problem with Golgatha's participation in the Land Rush promotion.

We are actively reaching out to big meta-game MMO Guilds. I'm not sure how well we'll do at generating engagement but I'm hopeful. You and I both know there are some of those Guilds who are immense - thousands, in some cases tens of thousands, of members. And some of them purport to be and occasionally actually are as chaotic as orks.

If we do manage to get traction with some of those entities I fully expect that one of the things they will try to do is "game" the promotion by setting up shell organizations to try and take and hold multiple spots on the map. It's clearly the best strategic plan at this stage in the game and succeeding could set a group up for a significant, lasting, meaningful advantage throughout Early Enrollment and thus likely persisting into Open Enrollment. In other words, there's a chance that behavior in this promotion could have effects that last for the next 5+ years of the game - before most of its players will even have heard that it exists.

The temptation to attempt to do this I believe will be directly correlated to the impression people have that it is already being done. Being just another group gaming the system has a lower psychological barrier than being the first group to do it. In fact, I originally reached out to Deacon because I essentially got PM'd by people saying exactly that: If Pax is going to get away with this then we feel not only permitted, but obligated to do the same thing, because the downstream benefits are so incredibly immense.

If you look at this situation from the outside, which is what I am doing, and what everyone else who comes to this game will do, it's very hard to say that Golgatha is a separate entity from Pax. While it may be so, and your organizational hierarchy seems built to create that compartmentalization, it's opaque to everyone who matters for this conversation, which is the representatives of other large guilds who may arrive on scene and try to work out how to take best advantage of the promotion. I feel it's reasonable to conclude that they're going to take one look at Pax and Golgatha and presume that's the loophole that is open to swarm the leaderboard.

I'm not going to tell you that Golgatha can't be on the leaderboard. I can't and won't put myself into the position of trying to untangle the various organizational structures of the 3rd parties that are going to be a part of our community. Down that path lies an endless predator/prey feedback loop that I can never hope to "win" and that will only serve to antagonize the people that we are most vested in making happy in this game. It's a losing proposition for everyone.

What I will ask you to do is to consider if Golgatha's participation in the promotion is really in the best interests of the game, and of Pax itself. The Settlements allocated on the Leaderboard are a fraction of the Settlements that will be available once we begin play. Golgatha will have a chance to compete for one of those other spots via in-game activities just like every other organization, and if it is cohesive and strategic and effective it will get one. On the other hand, if someone like Goonswarm shows up and decides to completely game the Leaderboard, Pax itself might find that it has become surrounded by a linked network of hostile forces bent on massive disruption "just for the lulz".

Your community has a chance to set some baseline norms of behavior. I'd ask you to carefully consider your response in that light.

Goblin Squad Member

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Sooooooooo, I really like the concept of context.

Grand Lodge

Nobody said Crowdforging would be easy.

Goblin Squad Member

Ouch! .....

What Ryan is basically asking is: What is to stop a group like Goonswarm coming in with 4000 members, creating 40 different sub divisions, and entering the land rush with 40 proposed settlements of 100 members each?

Goblin Squad Member

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I am still sortoff waiting for Steelwing to show up and immediately take first spot with his corp.

Goblin Squad Member

Bluddwolf wrote:

Ouch! .....

What Ryan is basically asking is: What is to stop a group like Goonswarm coming in with 4000 members, creating 40 different sub divisions, and entering the land rush with 40 proposed settlements of 100 members each?

Not a damn thing.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

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Ravenlute SBC _Prophecy_ wrote:
Bluddwolf wrote:

Ouch! .....

What Ryan is basically asking is: What is to stop a group like Goonswarm coming in with 4000 members, creating 40 different sub divisions, and entering the land rush with 40 proposed settlements of 100 members each?

Not a damn thing.

Well... other than the four hundred thousand dollars it would cost.

Goblin Squad Member

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Disclaimer: The thoughts expressed in this post are my own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of TEO management.

Ryan Dancey wrote:

For the record, this is what I told you:

...
snip
...

That's really enlightening. In the end, Pax chose to do what was in Pax's best interest. Maybe they thought Ryan was wrong, that no one would see the problem with this situation. Maybe they themselves didn't see it as a problem.

Personally, yeah I see it as a problem. Two separate guilds decided to form an alliance; no problem. They created a structure that highlighted the separation of the two guilds; great. But then their leadership started "tampering with the vote" by specifically funneling members of Aeturnum into votes for Golgatha to ensure that Golgatha would be artificially high on the leaderboard to guarantee its success. In my mind, that's a problem.

Clearly, there are those who think it's not an issue. Some have stated that it's an issue for GW to handle; I can't disagree with that. A great deal of trust was placed in the Pax community by Ryan and this is what was done with that trust. I am interested to see how Goblinworks handles this situation and at the same time I feel sad that they have been put into the position of having to do so.

I can see the merit in those PMs that Ryan was getting: "If Pax is going to get away with this then we feel not only permitted, but obligated to do the same thing, because the downstream benefits are so incredibly immense."

Goblin Squad Member

To be fair, the "in the spirit of...." Is a pile of horse turds!

No one is obligated to accurately interpret and then follow the spirit of anything. If GW (Ryan) wants something to happen or not to happen, as one of the Dev Blogs is entitled, "Put it in Writing".

If something can be done, it will be done and probably should be done (because others will likely do it, even if you don't). If GW does not want it to be done, "Make It So!" Prohibit it specifically and be done with it.

Goblin Squad Member

Bluddwolf wrote:
If GW does not want it to be done, "Make It So!"

That's a fair point. If they put the decision in the hands of Pax, it might not go the way they want. Letting Pax choose to claim 2 settlements, in the best of worlds, is going to raise eyebrows and prompt threads like this. At worst, well, hopefully a Pandora's box is not opened of some groups deciding to do the same thing, and other groups feeling unfairly treated before the game is even in alpha.

Goblin Squad Member

CBDunkerson wrote:
Ravenlute SBC _Prophecy_ wrote:
Bluddwolf wrote:

Ouch! .....

What Ryan is basically asking is: What is to stop a group like Goonswarm coming in with 4000 members, creating 40 different sub divisions, and entering the land rush with 40 proposed settlements of 100 members each?

Not a damn thing.
Well... other than the four hundred thousand dollars it would cost.

That should be enough to speedily expand the map...

Grand Lodge

I concur ArchAnjel. It seems that if this is a new form or competitive inter-guild pre-EE PvP competition then it will only follow that every facet of it's face will be tested.

I see this being the first of many such "controversial" topics that will end up enveloping and hopefully enriching the roleplay value of the game However, if it is clear that GW thinks this is an inappropriate move on Pax's part then them must act, otherwise it is VERY likely, if not inevitable that GW will have to rebuild the whole Land-Rush systems as they were simply not designed for balance with this kind of pre-EE nationhood that is purported to allegedly exist.

I understand GW's hesitance to speak out publicly or address it yet, it's perfectly reasonable that they be given time to resolve things as neatly as possibly. It's in their interest to do so in fact, as has been mentioned; The competing CC's Pax is just another competitor right now, but for GW they are paying customers.

Just think about that for a moment, the Land-Rush would very likely go under very serious changes, and possibly delays to account for the new culture the chartered companies have adopted BEFORE week 1 ends.

If this is to be the "new normal" for the leaderboard we all need to seriously consider what that might mean. At the VERY least what it does is push even more lower numbered contestants out of the running, but it stacks up advantage for what would function as a Nation on a Meta level at least from EE onward.

At this point any of the top 5 contenders could divide up and form more "independent" CC's with a still competitive number of votes. Sure they wont each be able to bid as many votes towards their Hex choice, but if they get 3 who really cares?

Goblin Squad Member

I think this is a cool thing GW is doing, allowing some groups to get free settlements. They certainly didn't have to. Best not to bite the hand that feeds you.

Goblin Squad Member

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Ravenlute SBC _Prophecy_ wrote:
I think this is a cool thing GW is doing, allowing some groups to get free settlements. They certainly didn't have to. Best not to bite the hand that feeds you.

There is also a bit of a trap in that as well. A company that gets a "free settlement" will not have the experience of knowing what it takes to actually capture a settlement, which means they are likewise lacking in some knowledge of what is needed to defend one as well.

It is like a champion boxer who gained his championship based on record alone. Not a true champion until after a successful title defense.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

GW originally said the landrush poll here on this forum wasn't going to be used. As the original post illustrates, it's trivial to create sock-puppet accounts here. I think the real landrush should have started after GW had a system to ensure that one account = one vote (pioneer being 1 account, buddy being 2, etc.), but maybe speeding things up by a couple weeks was worth the estimated margin of error. It's pretty likely that the top 3 would have been the same anyway.

Golgotha had no idea what this apparently ad-hoc landrush system would be before they decided to become a member division of a larger community. They wouldn't have done so if they'd thought it could cost them their entire identity, but kludge tends to cause issues, and all we can do is adapt around them. Evolutionary development systems get messy like that.

Goblin Squad Member

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Ryan was clearly aware of this matter that he perceived to be an issue.

PAX was clearly informed of the options that lay before them.
Ryan indicated that he would not reprimand them either way.

PAX made their choice.

Now the greater population of the forums are aware that such an exchange occurred.

PAX got their way, Ryan is dissatisfied but has made his choice.

There are certainly ramifications to this choice, of which the publication of details is only likely to serve to increase the chance that others are going to see this as tacit permission to do the same.

The only opinion I care to share is this:
This matter has already been settled; it should be dropped, as has already been suggested. Whether damage has been done, continuing this conversation will only serve to cause more.

Carry on, or not.

Goblin Squad Member

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Seriously people who complain you really need to understand the differences between a Nation and a State.

Disclaimer: This is Strictly my opinion on this matter not Pax community as a hold.

If GW really want to stop this from happening They should add another rules: something like this,

"No Charter Company of which is part of an establish alliances of Charter company. Whom have establish a settlement, shall be allow to establish another settlement. In this land rush or future land rush"
and with punishment along with it to who break this rules.

Without rules of that nature you cannot stop an alliance from establishing more than 1 settlement. With whom each CC is an pre-establish company prier to joining the alliance, and not a splinter group.

Let me ask you what is the differences between An alliance of CC with a pre-establish settlement join together, and Alliance of CC join together than get separate settlement?

Just my 2 cents

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