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Not to be "that guy", but they clarified this in the FAQ. It's only charms and compulsions that exercise mental control. It protects from Dominate, but not from Confusion, for example.
It works against 9th level spells the same way some will argue a 1st level divination, True Strike, completely bypasses Mind Blank, which will negate a Wish.
Let it go. It removes charm effects, which are the least fun branch of spells for PC's to encounter, and the key spells for a group TPK. The spells are powerful but fragile, and its always been that way. I don't have any problems with it.
==Aelryinth
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The various traits feats, spells that give bonuses against demons. Is not the major flaw of the ap. Most later aps have the same. I'm sure the Giantslayers Handbook has some similar anti-giant imo. The Giants AP I would ban Gunslingers because they will never miss the target no matter how protected. Since they target touch AC which is a low number on giants.
It's that the encounters are designed for new players as usual so even with a group that optimizes slightly the encounters if unchanged are easy to beat. It's also not helped that the Mythic Rules don't scale well either. Being Mythic the AP should have been designed from the ground up to be for experienced players who do some optimization imo. This is not the right AP for a novice player and dm to be running to get into Pathfinder.
Please. Charm Person does not cause a TPK. Bad interpretation of Charm Person causes TPK. All Charm Person does is make you consider the Charmer to be your really good friend. It does not turn you against the people you have fought with and trust, unless the environment is such that the characters have reason not to trust each other (ie, evil characters or groups that have interparty conflict).
I would allow a person under the influence of Charm Person to attack the Charmer using non-lethal attacks should that individual continue to attack his or her party. Obviously the situation is a misunderstanding but they are trying to kill each other, and knocking out the Charmer is the best way of preventing them from killing each other.
Dominate Person is the TPK spell, in that it will turn the Dominated individual into an unwilling combatant. And I cannot see why a 1st level spell should allow blanket immunity to that effect. Let us consider a spell of similar effect: Shield. Shield gives a bonus to armor class, and negates the Magic Missile spell - the latter being a spell OF EQUAL LEVEL.
So obviously a Protection from Evil Domination spell would have to be of equal level to Dominate Person (while also giving a +2 to the armor class against evil entities). Oh wait, what is it that I am suggesting? Was it Improved, Greater, and Ultimate Protection from [alignment] which would protect against higher level Charm spells? I do believe it WAS, wasn't it?
@Memorax: What I would do was negate the ability of Gunslingers to use Grit to increase their Touch AC range, and not allow them to use the more advanced firearms. If the only firearm they can use that has a decent range modifier is the Musket, then they're going to have to be within a giant's reach (and thus suffer AoO) to hit that Touch AC.
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@Memorax: What I would do was negate the ability of Gunslingers to use Grit to increase their Touch AC range, and not allow them to use the more advanced firearms. If the only firearm they can use that has a decent range modifier is the Musket, then they're going to have to be within a giant's reach (and thus suffer AoO) to hit that Touch AC.
That's a decent fix. Running Runelords with a player using one. Also somewhat optimized. If I don't double or triple the hp of gaints or large sized creatures they don't stand a chance. I still say if the devs had done a better job with Mythic and optimized the opponents the AP would have been better. With Runelords if I don't the enemies are too damn easy to beat.
Defense has always trumped offense in D@D. MInd Blank protects from divinations up to and including Wish, the ultimate spell in the game, and used to be able to protect from the awareness of deities. It covers an entire school, not a subset of it.
Charm Person and Monster gets the bad guy a defender. Dominate can hit you as soon as level 3, with succubi or vampire spawn. The shift from 4 attackers to 1 blocking another of you and 2 attackers is a major shift that can cause a TPK even without Dominate forcing combat.
They are killer spells and SLA's. There is a reason a poor Will save is the downfall of so many classes. A failed Fort save might weaken or kill you, but a failed WIll save takes someone else out of the fight too.
==Aelryinth
Geas. Because it is a mind-altering effect and the strict pre-FAQ description would provide it with that ability. Which is why I feel the spell should only affect up to level 3 enchantment/charm spells and more powerful versions for more powerful spells.
No one has shown me why a level 1 spell should be able to ignore a Wish spell used to replicate Charm Monster. No one.
Geas. Because it is a mind-altering effect and the strict pre-FAQ description would provide it with that ability. Which is why I feel the spell should only affect up to level 3 enchantment/charm spells and more powerful versions for more powerful spells.
No one has shown me why a level 1 spell should be able to ignore a Wish spell used to replicate Charm Monster. No one.
Because a Wish used to replicate a Magic Missile spell is still defeated by Shield? Wish doesn't make a spell 'more better' just because it's Wish. If there is a spell that defeats another spell, using Wish to replicate the defeated spell doesn't bypass the defense; unless the defense is based on the level of the spell, such as with Globe of Invulnerability.
Just because you don't like the way the rules works, doesn't change the way the rules end up working.
No different than people not liking how Mythic turned out, hasn't changed the way Mythic functions.
Protection from [Alignment] protects against existing Compulsion effects. Thus when you have a PfE up, the original text of PfE would allow the protected individual to get a second save to overcome the compulsion effect and be freed of the Geas. Thus if the Geas was (for instance) "protect the (evil) Wizard Overlord's life" and the person with the Geas was put under PfE... well, you can do the math.
The FAQ does limit the spell's effect so Geas is in theory safe (unless a potent enough rules lawyer goes to town to show it is enough akin to Charm/Dominate to be protected against as well). But it doesn't lessen the fact that PfE on each character would prevent them from being influenced by the 9th level spell Mass Charm Monster.
So you still have a 1st level spell negating a 9th level spell. And that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Does Resist Elements [Fire] negate a 9th level fire damage from Meteor Swarm? No. So why should PfE negate Mass Charm Monster?
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I Say!
things are getting testy now arent they! Whats needed here is a spot of Tea to calm the nerves
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I think this needs to be just dropped, no one is going to agree and everyone is flexing the internet muscle here. Everyone looks and interrupts things differently, we are all only human.
Lets agree to disagree and lets it go as we are derailing the thread with banter that can be kept to PMs or FAQ or other more appropriate threads.
Lets move along to how to use mythic to the best we possibly can
Protection from [Alignment] protects against existing Compulsion effects. Thus when you have a PfE up, the original text of PfE would allow the protected individual to get a second save to overcome the compulsion effect and be freed of the Geas. Thus if the Geas was (for instance) "protect the (evil) Wizard Overlord's life" and the person with the Geas was put under PfE... well, you can do the math.
The FAQ does limit the spell's effect so Geas is in theory safe (unless a potent enough rules lawyer goes to town to show it is enough akin to Charm/Dominate to be protected against as well). But it doesn't lessen the fact that PfE on each character would prevent them from being influenced by the 9th level spell Mass Charm Monster.
So you still have a 1st level spell negating a 9th level spell. And that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Does Resist Elements [Fire] negate a 9th level fire damage from Meteor Swarm? No. So why should PfE negate Mass Charm Monster?
Resist Energy (fire) does prevent fire damage from Meteor Swarm. Meteor Swarm does 24d6 points of fire damage with a minimum damage of 24 and a maximum of 144 for an average of 84. Resist Energy (fire) will protect you from up to 30 points of that fire damage.
Protection from Energy (fire) will protect you from up to 120 points of fire damage, which makes you all but immune to the first casting of Meteor Swarm and Protection from Energy is a 3rd level spell.
Seriously, you need to get off this idea that 9th level spells automatically bypass defenses simply because they're 9th level spells. Wish used to make Magic Missile doesn't defeat Shield. Meteor Swarm doesn't defeat Protection from Energy or Resist Energy. Mass Hold Monster doesn't defeat Freedom of Movement.
Resist Fire will prevent SOME fire damage from Meteor Swarm. It doesn't prevent ALL damage. In addition, a 1st level wizard casting it will not get 30 points of fire resistance (ie, the skill of the wizard or priest casting the spell improves the spell), while a 1st level wizard casting Protection from Evil gets that blanket protection against a level 9 Mass Dominate spell.
You still have not proven your point. Protection from [Alignment] is completely broken. The only realistic solution is the one I have suggested: limit its effect to level 3 or lower charm/dominate type spells, and then have a level 4 Improved, level 7 Greater, and Level 9 Ultimate version to cover higher level spells.
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Here is one round for my high level cleric (who was a straight CRB cleric, human, healing and knowledge domains).
Free action (from Relentless Healing 1st mythic tier ability): Intensified Mythic Heal from a distance of 30 ft (using Faith's Reach 1st mythic tier ability) to get the paladin from -200 hitpoints to positive 100.
Already you're breaking the rules. Even mythic heal caps at 225, and Intensified Spell alters damage dice, which heal doesn't have.
Swift action: Mythic maximized empowered persistent blade barrier (maximized using divine metamastery 3rd tier ability [taken three times] in order to maximize all spells for a minute) placed through the mass of bad guys. Remember, mythic blade barrier is an immediate not a standard. They all make their saves and avoid damage, choose to stay in front of it.
That's a tenth level spell, even with Divine Metamastery. This isn't 3.0 D&D Epic rules, so where did you get the slot?
Standard action: Do another blade barrier in same spot. Same results. (note that the previous round I also did this twice in the same way)
So you have four tenth level spell slots?
At this point my intelligent cloak which casts as a wizard drops enervation on the one enemy who has teleported behind us.
Given the limitations of the Spellcasting legendary ability for legendary items, I sincerely doubt it actually casts as a full wizard. Also, it specifically says that the wielder must activate the spellcasting, so what action did you spend on doing this?
Second standard action: (from burning a mythic point, everyone who's mythic gets this at I think 3rd tier or so). Shape Channel at the mass of bad guys in front of me, deselecting the three party members in melee with them. Regardless of whether they save against the channel, they get pushed back thirty feet. So take 10D6/2 damage from the channel, and then get thrown through 4 mythic empowered persistent maximized blade barriers. Roll your saves twice. DC 35 I think is what it was up to. This killed four of the five bad guys in the fight regardless of whether they made every single save. I think it was something like between 400 and 800 damage to all of them, which none of them were surviving even at full health.
Second tier, actually; it's part of Amazing Initiative. It's worth noting that the extra standard action can't be used to cast spells, though you didn't do that here. I sincerely hope that your opponents were undead, by the by, since Shape Channel's knockback effect specifically says it happens when you damage creatures, and the next thing you did pretty clearly says your character is a positive channeler.
Move action: quick channel just for the hell of it, to heal everyone close to full.
It's the individual power of anything I did, it's the fact that without doing anything cheesy I effectively got to take 6 actions in a single round. Yeah, it burned a half dozen mythic points ... but I had over twenty and this was a boss fight, so that's not even an impressive number of resources burned.
You noted you did this for two rounds, so it's more than that. ;) Also, it means the combat actually lasted for two rounds. When playing high-level rocket tag, even without mythic rules, that's pretty good.
At any rate, your account is pretty questionable by the actual rules involved.
Ugh...Not to defend mythic cheesiness but...
He could have used a rod to empower the blade barrier spells. There's even one given out in the AP. (although it does take a swift action to activate divine metamastery)
Look at alignment channel if you want your channeling to harm evil outsiders.
I do agree with you about the cloak. The spellcasting ability does add spells to the character as spell like abilities and would come from the character's actions. Oddly enough, seems like a pretty minor ability for a legendary item...although I banned those in my campaign.
So for two rounds the cleric could... activate metamastery, cast blade barrier (and bonus a standard action). Then cast 2 barriers and channel energy, all with maximize and empowered if he has a rod. And still use a free action or two to bring up fallen allies.
Not as much as the poster had said, but still pretty good. And fairly easily countered with some movement on the enemies turn.
Immediate actions also use up your next quick action, so if you can't use two of them consecutively...it's just a quick action you can get off on someone else's turn. You don't get multiples.
==Aelryinth
Swift action: Mythic maximized empowered persistent blade barrier ...
That's a tenth level spell, even with Divine Metamastery. This isn't 3.0 D&D Epic rules, so where did you get the slot?
As I said, the divine metamastery ability allows you to apply a metamagic feat (chosen when turned on, which in this case I did at the door as we buffed pre-initiative) to every spell you cast for a minute. So take three off of that level limit, those were prepared in 7th level slots.
Hmmm, I'm still not getting the math here...
Blade Barrier is 6th level. Maximized is +3, Empowered is +2 and Persistent is +2, for a total of 13. Even with Divine Metamastery, you are still at 10th level... were there other feats involved here that you aren't mentioning? If not, even assuming Maximized was your freebie, you can only memorize it as Empowered (8th) or Persistent (8th), but not both.
Swift action: Mythic maximized empowered persistent blade barrier ...
That's a tenth level spell, even with Divine Metamastery. This isn't 3.0 D&D Epic rules, so where did you get the slot?
As I said, the divine metamastery ability allows you to apply a metamagic feat (chosen when turned on, which in this case I did at the door as we buffed pre-initiative) to every spell you cast for a minute. So take three off of that level limit, those were prepared in 7th level slots.
Hmmm, I'm still not getting the math here...
Blade Barrier is 6th level. Maximized is +3, Empowered is +2 and Persistent is +2, for a total of 13. Even with Divine Metamastery, you are still at 10th level... were there other feats involved here that you aren't mentioning? If not, even assuming Maximized was your freebie, you can only memorize it as Empowered (8th) or Persistent (8th), but not both.
Rod of Empower.
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They're always in the box to the left, down, and under those two other, heavier boxes:-)
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They're always in the box to the left, down, and under those two other, heavier boxes:-)We don't speak of what's in those boxes.
Well if they ever start moving or growling lemme know, i gotta guy for that, super cheap, doesn't ask questions:-)
