The Exodus - Choose North, Choose Life


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Goblin Squad Member

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In this case it's about SPACE + TRAVEL time

If it takes on average 10 minutes to get to each settlement from each settlement that is an EXTREMELY confined area.

EVE and Darkfall both took longer than that. EVE does have areas of large inactivity, but a lot of those places are BUFFER zones or no-man's-land. In the original Darkfall there were something like 54,000 people playing, and I can tell you, even half an hour from settlement to settlement is too close. The Darkfall map is about 4 times bigger than the EE map.

77,000 people, in my opinion is too many people, for the OE map. While 10-15% is the AVERAGE on at any one time, individual groups will have higher activity during certain events artificially increasing those numbers during such times. My point, it will seem a lot more crowded than you think.

Goblin Squad Member

Xeen wrote:
Eve has over 500k subs with an average of 35k online at one time. There are massive chunks of empty space.

I hear you, Xeen, but not sure if you can compare player-density so easily. Eve is 3D space, PFO is on a single plane. I agree there will be pockets with much higher playerdensity, but the settlements are spread out very evenly. I am not sure what exactly the equivalent of a settlement is for Eve, but are they comparable in number and the way they are divided across the universe(evenly?). Eve has this 4-faction system, PFO will have an unknown amount of Kingdoms and Alliances.

I may be wrong but I feel that there are less "hubs" in Eve which are spread out more, and then lots and lots of contestable content that will draw players and then a lot of empty space in between.

In PFO you have the hubs spread out very evenly, and then a huge amount of contestable locations like monsters, PoIs, nodes and dungeons, and most importantly, the settlements themselves which are also contestable.

I also think your 1 in 10 number is quit low, but this may be because Eve has so many alt accounts that are just skilling up untill people need to throw more or different ships into the fray. What I remember from the more conventional MMO's is more like 1 in 5 subs for online numbers.

If we would take 1 in 5, then settlements will field around 60 players on average, with my 300 members per settlement average. That is not too bad. Several of these will be crafter Alts no doubt but they are still in the world, and provide content.

Do not forget that founding, building up and protecting a settlement is an important part of the gameplay. The bigger the average settlement-membership is, the more of a peon everyone is in the game. Undoubtedly we will have mega-cities, safety in numbers. But there wil also be many groups who simply want their own place, build it up, protect it. I think more fun is to be had for the average player if the average settlement membership is closer to 300 then when it is a 1000.

So while wilderness hexes may have relatively low playerdensity, it will be the lack of free settlement hexes that will cause a cry for more land at some point (when subs keep rising). And the even spread of these settlements will still cause player interaction in the low density wilderness hexes.

About desolate regions: I think some swathes of land will become more empty and this will have everything to do with the political and economic landscape(always too much food, cropland settlements go bust). GW will undoubtedly tweak things if we get vast desolated areas though, to lure people back. If they fail in this then you would get an broken up game, where entire parts of the map do not interact anymore with eachother, almost like different servers. That can't be good.

Goblin Squad Member

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Being wrote:
I do like the ideas of other megadungeons down the road, but I'd like to explore the Emerald Spire before worrying my homely head about them.

A few megadungeons here and there are okay, but I don't want to see 'raid' mentality to come into PFO. Where you are expected to take part every Saturday night raiding Emerald Spire. It ceases to be fun and more like a chore.

One of the things I like about dungeons that the Devs have stated before was that most dungeons will be one-shots. No repeating until you feel like throwing up.

Goblin Squad Member

I expect clearing Escalations will be kind of like Raids...

Goblin Squad Member

Bigmancheatle wrote:

In this case it's about SPACE + TRAVEL time

If it takes on average 10 minutes to get to each settlement from each settlement that is an EXTREMELY confined area.

EVE and Darkfall both took longer than that. EVE does have areas of large inactivity, but a lot of those places are BUFFER zones or no-man's-land. In the original Darkfall there were something like 54,000 people playing, and I can tell you, even half an hour from settlement to settlement is too close. The Darkfall map is about 4 times bigger than the EE map.

77,000 people, in my opinion is too many people, for the OE map. While 10-15% is the AVERAGE on at any one time, individual groups will have higher activity during certain events artificially increasing those numbers during such times. My point, it will seem a lot more crowded than you think.

10% - 15% is not the average. 10% is top average.

It take 10 minutes to cross 4 hexes that are completely flat and moving in a straight line with no other factors.

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
I expect clearing Escalations will be kind of like Raids...

Yup, I fully expect 'advancement guilds' to have set days and times where everyone is required to log in and clear escalation cycles to gain the special crafting mats or set up gathering stations.

Goblin Squad Member

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Ravenlute SBC _Prophecy_ wrote:
Nihimon wrote:
I expect clearing Escalations will be kind of like Raids...
Yup, I fully expect 'advancement guilds' to have set days and times where everyone is required to log in and clear escalation cycles to gain the special crafting mats or set up gathering stations.

Anything that requires the coordination of dozens of people is going to need scheduling in advance and preparation. Using a regular weekly schedule is of the simplest ways of doing that. Not the most secure in a hostile environment like PFO, naturally, but certainly simple.

Goblin Squad Member

Tuoweit wrote:
Ravenlute SBC _Prophecy_ wrote:
Nihimon wrote:
I expect clearing Escalations will be kind of like Raids...
Yup, I fully expect 'advancement guilds' to have set days and times where everyone is required to log in and clear escalation cycles to gain the special crafting mats or set up gathering stations.

Anything that requires the coordination of dozens of people is going to need scheduling in advance and preparation. Using a regular weekly schedule is of the simplest ways of doing that. Not the most secure in a hostile environment like PFO, naturally, but certainly simple.

True, but for me those are little bit different than the Raids I mentioned above. Those will be different each time. Unlike the Raids you see in Themepark games which are the same each time.

Goblin Squad Member

Hmmm, I think this is a recruiting thread. We probably should not waylay the discussion too much. We can still be respectful even if not universally reciprocated.

Goblin Squad Member

Forencith wrote:
Hmmm, I think this is a recruiting thread. We probably should not waylay the discussion too much. We can still be respectful even if not universally reciprocated.

Unless I'm mistaken, Andius joined UNC and this thread is no longer valid for its OP.

Goblin Squad Member

Ravenlute wrote:
Forencith wrote:
Hmmm, I think this is a recruiting thread. We probably should not waylay the discussion too much. We can still be respectful even if not universally reciprocated.
Unless I'm mistaken, Andius joined UNC and this thread is no longer valid for its OP.

Really? Wow...that is an interesting bit of news. I am glad Andius has found a community and I am glad UNC has taken on the task of defending the oppressed (and not disappointed to hear UNC intends to settle in the North *grin*)

I wish all parties involved the best of luck.

Goblin Squad Member

Ravenlute wrote:
Forencith wrote:
Hmmm, I think this is a recruiting thread. We probably should not waylay the discussion too much. We can still be respectful even if not universally reciprocated.
Unless I'm mistaken, Andius joined UNC and this thread is no longer valid for its OP.

I don't think it was ever a recruitment thread. Andius was just telling good guys to set up camp in the north.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Ravenlute wrote:
Forencith wrote:
Hmmm, I think this is a recruiting thread. We probably should not waylay the discussion too much. We can still be respectful even if not universally reciprocated.
Unless I'm mistaken, Andius joined UNC and this thread is no longer valid for its OP.

I assumed that the UNC accepted the goals of Andius when they incorporated him. There's nothing that suggests to me that Andius changed from his core goals, the ones that caused him to make a very painful break from his own friends.

Goblin Squad Member

Lord Zodd wrote:
I don't think it was ever a recruitment thread. Andius was just telling good guys to set up camp in the north.

More of a de-cruitment thread, really.

Goblin Squad Member

DeciusBrutus wrote:
I assumed that the UNC accepted the goals of Andius when they incorporated him.

Really? I suspect just the opposite - that Andius has done a complete 180 and accepted the goals of the UNC. I also suspect that he will never admit to having done so.

It would be within character for him to have drawn a gathering around him, promising the moon, only to then walk away from them to pursue his own agenda. And there's nothing inherently wrong with misleading people and walking away from one's commitments; it's not evil or anything. I just think it's very telling in regards to his true nature.

Goblin Squad Member

Xeen wrote:
Bigmancheatle wrote:

In this case it's about SPACE + TRAVEL time

If it takes on average 10 minutes to get to each settlement from each settlement that is an EXTREMELY confined area.

EVE and Darkfall both took longer than that. EVE does have areas of large inactivity, but a lot of those places are BUFFER zones or no-man's-land. In the original Darkfall there were something like 54,000 people playing, and I can tell you, even half an hour from settlement to settlement is too close. The Darkfall map is about 4 times bigger than the EE map.

77,000 people, in my opinion is too many people, for the OE map. While 10-15% is the AVERAGE on at any one time, individual groups will have higher activity during certain events artificially increasing those numbers during such times. My point, it will seem a lot more crowded than you think.

10% - 15% is not the average. 10% is top average.

It take 10 minutes to cross 4 hexes that are completely flat and moving in a straight line with no other factors.

Played games with more than a 10% average online.

Most Settlements are less than 4 hexes away, a lot are just 2. So, if you count that as 3, as the settlements would be centered, that is probably going to be 10 minutes, maybe a little longer.

Goblin Squad Member

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DeciusBrutus wrote:
I assumed that the UNC accepted the goals of Andius when they incorporated him.
ArchAnjel wrote:
Really? I suspect just the opposite - that Andius has done a complete 180 and accepted the goals of the UNC. I also suspect that he will never admit to having done so.

Both are wrong, but the first is more wrong then the later. There will most likely be an influence of moderating the former diametrically opposed view points.

There has also been a fair share of not understanding, or intentionally misrepresenting, what the UNC has been saying about our intentions.

Recruiting Andius will show to him, first hand, that our group and the way that we operate were not aligned with his previous beliefs. Any other individuals that follow his path, will discover the same.

Goblin Squad Member

I believe that what I believe is believable to those who believe.

I'm just interested in seeing how all these different companies will react to each other in-game. This is far from the end of the player shuffle.

Goblin Squad Member

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I believe I can't follow WTH is going on with about 90% of you folks.. :)

Goblin Squad Member

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Docora wrote:
I believe I can't follow WTH is going on with about 90% of you folks.. :)

See? 90% of you lot are Chaotic anyway. Stop playing dress up and be true to yourselves, shed that Lawful guise. Join Prophecy.

Goblin Squad Member

ArchAnjel wrote:
DeciusBrutus wrote:
I assumed that the UNC accepted the goals of Andius when they incorporated him.
Really? I suspect just the opposite - that Andius has done a complete 180 and accepted the goals of the UNC. I also suspect that he will never admit to having done so.

Maybe he's just making a big show of the break in order to infiltrate his enemies...

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
ArchAnjel wrote:
DeciusBrutus wrote:
I assumed that the UNC accepted the goals of Andius when they incorporated him.
Really? I suspect just the opposite - that Andius has done a complete 180 and accepted the goals of the UNC. I also suspect that he will never admit to having done so.
Maybe he's just making a big show of the break in order to infiltrate his enemies...

Lol, infiltrate what? The UNC is the most open book company on the PFO forums. We are the only ones with an active policy thread, and we are willing to express our beliefs often. Our goals are focused and simple, we want to steal other people's stuff!!

Transparent Honesty = Spy Proof

Goblin Squad Member

Early on I tried to negotiate a concept with Bluddwolf. It didn't work but …. Still CN is a step too far. Best of lock. And I appreciate what UNC will try to do.

Thread specific, for reasons other than those Andius expressed, K can be a great location. Can I assume that UNC will go for it?

It is the best site to combine highlands and croplands during EE.

Goblin Squad Member

Lam wrote:

Early on I tried to negotiate a concept with Bluddwolf. It didn't work but …. Still CN is a step too far. Best of lock. And I appreciate what UNC will try to do.

Thread specific, for reasons other than those Andius expressed, K can be a great location. Can I assume that UNC will go for it?

It is the best site to combine highlands and croplands during EE.

If recent events should tell you anything, never assume when it comes to the UNC. We like to keep you all guessing.

Goblin Squad Member

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Bluddwolf wrote:
Lol, infiltrate what? The UNC is the most open book company on the PFO forums.
Bluddwolf wrote:
We like to keep you all guessing.

You are so open you must be hiding something! That's how it works right?

Goblin Squad Member

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Bludd you literally just went from "Transparent Honesty = Spy Proof" to "If recent events should tell you anything, never assume when it comes to the UNC. We like to keep you all guessing." with nothing in between.

UNC at K is a gripping hypothetical.

Go for V and become the Emerald Spire Tour company. Whoever has V when the Spire goes live is going to be riiiiiiiiiiiiiiicccchhh and you won't even have to try hard to get their coin.

Goblin Squad Member

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Dakcenturi wrote:
Xeen wrote:
The expansion outside of that will only happen if the game becomes massive... Good luck with that plan.
With as big as the existing Pathfinder fan base already is I don't think this will be a problem. It might take a year or two to grow to the sizes where they would need to expand but I definitely think it will happen.

I'm not sure the popularity of the Pathfinder game is a reliable indication of anything. This is a PvP game where you can lose stuff. That sentence alone will turn away 99.9% of MMO players.

I'm not saying that's a bad thing. It's suppose to be a niche game and would probably break with 100,000 players.

Goblin Squad Member

Rafkin, Why do you think it would break with such numbers? Are you talking about their tech which has to put 100k people in a single world, or do you see devastating gameplay scenarios?

I think the world can expand indefinately, however you may end up with large regions that basically "play with eachother" while they ignore the rest because they are too far apart. I can see this happen when "gaps" start to occur due to unwanted hexes or devastating wars that leave many settlement hexes unsettled, that sorf of thing.

GW could tweak a lot here: make those "gap-areas" interesting again. SO maybe they just never let that happen.

About the tech: I am not sure but I think the hex-system was made to be infinately expandable, just add another server-rack that will handle the new hexes? I also think they have tech that can funnel computing power from racks/hexes that are relatively unused to a rack/Hex that is particularly busy (War, settlement hex, PoI Raid). I could be totally wrong, and I have no clue about stuff like databases and such which must be huge with a game like this.

Silver Crusade Goblin Squad Member

I think he meant break even with 100,000.

Goblin Squad Member

Proxima Sin wrote:

Bludd you literally just went from "Transparent Honesty = Spy Proof" to "If recent events should tell you anything, never assume when it comes to the UNC. We like to keep you all guessing." with nothing in between.

UNC at K is a gripping hypothetical.

Go for V and become the Emerald Spire Tour company. Whoever has V when the Spire goes live is going to be riiiiiiiiiiiiiiicccchhh and you won't even have to try hard to get their coin.

Someone else trying to predict or assume what we might do, and our being transparent about what we intend to do, are two different things. My statements are not at odds with each other.

As for "K" being a good location for Aragon, I don't really see it. Aragon is envisioned as a chaotic / military training camp. Although it will rely on some trade, that is hardly its focus. Aragon, being a Chaotic Neutral settlement, really does not need to be near any particular starting settlement. We will gladly accept good, neutral and or evil characters. We won't be turning away lawful aligned characters at our gates either. They will be equally welcomed to train in Aragon.

"K" is better suited for a trade hub in my opinion. It is also centrally located between the Neutral starter town, and the eventual Good stater town.

Goblin Squad Member

As Bluddwolf has stated neither of us has entirely adopted the other's ideals. There is room within Aragon's plans for us both pursue our personal objectives while cooperating on our common objectives.

Most of what I've learned in UNC this far would only help it's public perception if leaked. UNC has a significant amount more depth to it's objectives and thinking behind the roles it intends to adopt than I had previously assumed.

I wouldn't count on or rule out UNC picking my favorite location but what I would count on is UNC making a tactically sound decision that will offer a great location for a CN settlement as well as any CG groups residing with them.

@ Cheatle. If it took you four hours to cross the Pre-UW Darkfall map did you spend the first three running in circles or just stop for a 15 minute breather every 5 minutes?

http://dargnon.cz/wp-content/gallery/various/quarendel2.jpg

There is the original Darkfall map. The massive continent in the center contains the starter zone for every race. On numerous occasions I had to make the trip from elf lands to human lands. Elf lands being the green area to the west and the cities I went to being on the more western end of it. Human lands being the area to the east and the cities I went to being on the more eastern end. In order to avoid the fire dragon to the center of the map which can't be soloed, I had to go through Alfar lands, the black area in the south.

That trip, on a standard mount, took about 30 minutes. I never made a trip from one corner of the map to the other because there would be no practical reason to do so, and even so anyone going that far would use a portal shard or runestone. But I can't see how it would take any more than an hour if done efficiently.

Goblin Squad Member

Yea, dude, I don't know when you played, but that is absurdly fast to how long it took us when the game launched. 30 minutes?

That is like going from ALberworth to Sanguine

Goblin Squad Member

"Geography[edit]
Darkfall claims to feature one of the largest online worlds of any MMORPG created to date.[11] The Darkfall world consists of a large, central continent named Agon, on which all six racial capitals are found, surrounded by four smaller continents to the north-east, north-west, south-east and south-west. In addition, there are numerous small islands and archipelagos. It was estimated by one of the developers before release that it would take roughly eight hours for a human to run from one end to the other.[citation needed] In reality, the time to cross the main continent is closer to 4 hours,[citation needed] stretching the time to cross the map on a diagonal up to around six.[citation needed] (For comparison, Blizzard's World of Warcraft continent of Eastern Kingdoms is three hours from north to south.)[citation needed]

The world includes a wide range of diverse terrain types, including forest, plain, desert, ice, jungle/tropical, swamp, and wasteland areas. Every part of the Darkfall world has been handmade by the developers and not computer generated.[citation needed] Darkfall developers have stated that any/all terrain can be accessed and traversed by characters possessing the appropriate skills,[citation needed] e.g. mountains may be climbed by those who possess the ability to climb; islands may be reached by swimming."

Darkfall Wiki

There were no Portal Shards or Runestones for travel in Darkfall Online, at least not while I played, which was about the first 7-9 Months.

Goblin Squad Member

That may have been true if you were unmounted and not using the sprint command at all, but the reality of it was mounts were readily available and even sprinting on foot I would imagine faster travel times than what's being listed there. I remember several instances in which we moved players between Sanguine/Heart of Eanna area and Sandbrook within 2-3 minutes during our war with Maru Kage. There was one were I attacked one of their players at the Sandbrook bank before getting jumped by 5 more, and reinforcements from Sanguine arrived in time for us to win the skirmish.

Goblin Squad Member

If you used sprint it made it a little faster, as a matter of fact, sprinting was the same speed as mounts. Still took forever to get anywhere. Maybe you played after some kind of update, but mounts still weren't very fast.

Probably take you weeks running into walls with mounts to up your skill so they would be fast enough to maybe cross a large area in an hour.

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