Dorella Kreeg and Hookmaw Henchman AP3


Rules Questions and Gameplay Discussion


Okay, this has come up due to GreyElephant's PACG series on YouTube. They just finished the Scenario that has Dorella and Hookmaw as one of the henchmen in it, and there seems to be some confusion due to Dorella's check. It is listed as Combat/Arcane 12 (or Arcane/Combat 12). There are a bunch of people on the comments stating that to defeat Dorella, you must use an Arcane Combat check (meaning play an Arcane Attack spell) to succeed at defeating Dorella.

I stated that all of those cards with multiple checks on it are Trait 1 OR Trait 2, and now I'm being told that Mike has said no, this specific card requires you to play an arcane spell to defeat him. I tried the search function on here and couldn't find anything, nor do I ever remember this coming up before but it has been months since AP3 so I may have forgotten it.


If it says Arcane/Combat 12, it means a combat check OR a non-combat arcane check. Period. End of line.

If there isn't anything else in the powers section about special requirements to defeat, then that's all there is to it.


I've got my cards with me, so here is what the check to defeat says:

(Dorella)
Combat
Arcane
12
THEN
(Hookmaw)
Combat
15

So to defeat the Dorella part, you choose Combat or Arcane then have to get a 12.

Rulebook v3 p11 wrote:
Determine Which Die You’re Using. Cards that require a check specify the skill or skills you can use to attempt the check. Each check to defeat or acquire a card lists one or more skills; you may choose any of the listed skills for your check. For example, if a check lists Dexterity, Disable, Strength, and Melee, you may use any one of those skills to attempt your check.

This is no different than any other card where you choose the skill when more than one is listed.

I also find no evidence of Mike saying anything to indicate you must play an arcane spell to beat them, and given that many groups can easily not have any arcane spells, I doubt that would ever be the only way to beat something in PACG.


Yeah, thanks for backing me up. I was 100% sure I was right about that. I think the guy's confusion (the guy who's been messaging me on YT not Tim or Carmen of GreyElephant) is that Mike didn't want to try to force 3 checks on one card so unlike all the other Villains that had an Arcane or Divine check AND a Combat check listed separately as several AP2 Villains do, it got jammed together.

I never doubt what I say on here unless someone goes "Well Mike or Vic said X". Maybe a little when you two do as well.


Rogors Craesby has a Combat 12 THEN Combat/Divine 15, with Divine written under Combat.

But regardless, the rulebook tells you to pick any of the skills listed. This highlights that combat is really like a skill. And you have different ways to perform that skill. Everyone sort of has Combat: Strength and Combat: Melee inherently. Or you can play a card to use another skill in place of the Combat skill.

Its just that usually the non-combat option has a lower target then the combat option. The really weird thing would be if a card said Combat 12 OR Arcane 12, because that would be unnecessary. I'm pretty sure there is no such card that says that.


Dorella says exactly that. Combat or Arcane, both with target of 12.

Unless I'm confused about the point you're making...


Dorella reads as combat or arcane 12, as opposed to combat 12 or arcane 12. And that distinction was what I was trying to get at.

I meant if it actually had the word or typed out. So a box that said combat with 12 in a circle, then the word "or" then a box that said arcane with 12 in a circle.

My point was that such a thing like that would be the odd thing to see, because it would be unnecessary.

Sovereign Court

It has a separate circle for each skill, both with the same check requirement of 12? I don't remember that, but that's odd that they separated the two if they have the same difficulty and it is an OR.


I fear I'm confusing people. Allow me to explain. Dorella and Hookmaw say this:

Check to Defeat
(Dorella)
Combat
Arcane
(12)
THEN
(Hookmaw)
Combat
15

That reads as Combat or Arcane 12 THEN Combat 15.

I was trying to say that if it read as Combat 12 OR Arcane 12 THEN Combat 15, that would be unnecessary, since you don't need the Combat 12 in a separate box from the Arcane 12. It does not read that way, but I was trying to make the point that seeing it that way would be the weird thing, not seeing it how it actually is. I hope that helps clear all that up.


kysmartman wrote:

Yeah, thanks for backing me up. I was 100% sure I was right about that. I think the guy's confusion (the guy who's been messaging me on YT not Tim or Carmen of GreyElephant) is that Mike didn't want to try to force 3 checks on one card so unlike all the other Villains that had an Arcane or Divine check AND a Combat check listed separately as several AP2 Villains do, it got jammed together.

I never doubt what I say on here unless someone goes "Well Mike or Vic said X". Maybe a little when you two do as well.

The person messaging you on YT saying that it has to be an "Arcane Combat Check" is incorrect, as others have stated here.

I can find nowhere where Mike supposedly said this skill check is any different than the hundreds of other skill checks.

You should ask this person that keeps insisting he did to show you the proof (which also will allowing you to show us the proof he/she says exists). Heck, we all may be surprised (but I highly doubt it, and feel that the person may be misinterpreting something).

Sovereign Court

Gotcha Hawk. I misread your last post was all.

I dunno where the person thought that Mike said it worked as having to be Combat AND Arcane in one check, but they are simply wrong.


Wait....someone was WRONG on the internet?? I dont even...

Sovereign Court

csouth154 wrote:
Wait....someone was WRONG on the internet?? I dont even...

First.

Time.
Ever.

Sovereign Court

I know, I'm as shocked as you. Isn't the internet supposed to be a bastion of accuracy and correctness?


Mike mentioned the cards should be encountered exactly the way they are written so problems like this would not happen.

Dorella
to defeat
combat
arcane 12

it does not give the option of what you can use to defeat him.
To clear this up the word "or" should have been placed between them.


Kevin Moore 322 wrote:

Mike mentioned the cards should be encountered exactly the way they are written so problems like this would not happen.

Dorella
to defeat
combat
arcane 12

it does not give the option of what you can use to defeat him.
To clear this up the word "or" should have been placed between them.

The rules have always given very specific instruction to read multiple skills as if they have an "or" between them.

Pathfinder Adventure Card Game Designer

kysmartman wrote:
I stated that all of those cards with multiple checks on it are Trait 1 OR Trait 2, and now I'm being told that Mike has said no, this specific card requires you to play an arcane spell to defeat him.

I don't know who this "Mike" is, but he sounds like he doesn't know what he's talking about.


The ruling from Mike is

Check to defeat
combat (12)
or arcane check (12) with your arcane die.

Then
Combat (15) to defeat


Kevin Moore 322 wrote:

The ruling from Mike is

Check to defeat
combat (12)
or arcane check (12) with your arcane die.

Then
Combat (15) to defeat

Uh...yep.

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