Goblin Squad Member
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| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I remember some discussion about this, back when flags were introduced, and I'm not sure if it has been discussed much since then.
One thing I see missing is the ability to temporarily claim territory, and be able to attack people that do not leave when they are told. This could be used for protecting resourcing operations from unknown players, hide something you have found, or keep players away from a fallen comrade.
Here's how it could work:
1. You target the intruder and press the 'Stand Your Ground' button.
2. A circle is drawn around your character [on the intruder's UI] for 50 meters**(EDIT:: This should be from the point the player was standing when the SYG was issued, it shouldn't move with the player.)
The intruder now has two choices:
A. Leave the area within 30 seconds.
If you do not leave, you can be attacked without reputation shift.
B. press your 'Stand Your Ground' button.
The 'Stander' and the 'Intruder' (and their respective parties) can now fight without loss of reputation or alignment, this is basically a duel.
Limitations:
-Each hex should be split into sub sections, and these subsections should track when players come and go. SYG can only be used on players who enter the subsection after you. This prevents a group from taking over a current operation without consequence.
-It is impossible to SYG near a structure you do not own.
-You cannot SYG in a NPC controlled hex.
-Settlements can choose that in their hex: anyone can SYG, only members can SYG, only kingdom members can SYG, or no-one can SYG.
**Actual value would be determined through playtesting balance. But this should be 50% larger than the longest ranged attack(by a player, not a siege machine).
***not in your party, or company
Also great for killing AFK people without rep loss! =D
I think a mechanic like this isn't necessary as situations like this lead to what Pathfinder Online is really about.
You want the resources, you tell the people to wait until you are done or just leave altogether since you perceive those resources as yours. Disagreements like this could easily escalate into a heated war!
@Robbor, look at first limitation. You wouldn't be able to SYG and AFK if they were there first. And if people are harvesting, you can't SYG them, as they were there first.
Good point! I think the system has it's merits actually!
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Audoucet
You have 30 seconds to move through/out of the area, and SYG is not allowed on roads, as they are NPC protected, and blocking roads is against the laws of the river kingdoms. Any other roads would technically be a player created structure, so again, no SYG unless you own the road.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's not really continuous tracking, more like triggered events. I remember a while back they were talking about splitting hexes into sub-hexes, so it would be tagged on when the player enters the sub-hex with any other communications, as with leaving.
Then you just have a simple check, die player A enter the sub-hex before player B.
I guess if a group of miners/fighters clear a crater and want to start gathering resources they would want to temporarily enforce their claim without all sinking into low rep/alignment because of killing a few people that would try to benefit from their work
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Decius
Mostly keeping undesired players away. And making sure people can 'ninja loot' nodes/corpses. The act of harvesting/looting should take longer than the SYG timer. It doesn't limit criminal behavior, but doesn't let people abuse in a non criminal fashion.
Someone comes up to you and starts spamming chat, or jumping around like an idiot: SYG.
It also functions as a duel system, which many people want.
I think every game I have played there have been players that nobody wanted around, but there was nothing we could do about it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Or you "pay" for the right to own those resources through consequential PvP; essentially you would be "paying Rep" for it.
What is the difference between a system that allows you to pay x Rep to engage in consequence free PvP, or a system that fines you x Rep as the consequence for simply engaging in PvP?
Being high-Rep is great, maintaining a dedication to high-Rep, be that at the cultural, settlement, or individual level is great and respectable. However, as Ryan has stated, being high-Rep probably is not and should not be the goal of the game. Sometimes it will be necessary to sacrifice Rep in the name of "winning". I think securing a resource worth fighting for is one such case.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So when Ryan suggested extreme high-Rep might mean someone is not willing to do the dirty work to make a settlement successful, that did not make sense to you?
The key is balance. Assuming Rep-gain is acquired diachronically (over time) only...and is always acquired...one can act a certain way and average zero Rep loss. With zero net/average Rep loss, one did not "do something wrong" or act in an "objectional" manner. In fact, I bet one can act in ways that in the short term result in Rep-loss, but still, on average, have a positive gain gain. This means they are playing in a positive manner.
To summarize, playing in a objectional manner can be gauged in several ways, synchronically (at any single instance in time) with a Rep below a certain threshold, or diachronically with a net Rep loss. As far as I can see, at no point should Rep loss in general be seen as a negative thing unless at least one of the conditions above are met.
EDIT: Of course, someone judging can always take the average of a time, artificially setting the boarders of the measure on either side of a "loss act"...which is what you are doing when you suggest any loss is questionable behaviour. However, this is a false measure as Rep is intended to gauge playstyle...and no single moment or instance can be held up as the sum of an individuals playstyle any more than a single act in the real world can be viewed as the sum of a person. An average gain is a positive playstyle, no matter the local mins or maxes.
My opinion anyways.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I like your idea that there should be some way to threaten people to get off of your home hexes. I also like the idea that there should be some way that it is possible to actually have to "lose" reputation. Sometimes through weighted, meaningful choices that we have to make on the spot.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Local Chat: Forencith [yells]: "Bringslite! Get off my lawn!!!"
...
...
Forencith's pet, Fido, inflicts 0.2 points of Damage to Bringlite's ankle.
Forencith looses 2 points of Rep for attacking Bringlite.Forencith's pet, Fido, inflicts 0.8 points of Damage to Bringlite's ankle.
Forencith looses 2 points of Rep for attacking Bringlite.Forencith's pet, Fido, inflicts 0.4 points of Damage to Bringlite's ankle.
Forencith looses 2 points of Rep for attacking Bringlite....
...
Forencith gains 8 points of Rep for the last 3 hours of play.
I have played as intended in a positive manner with a net gain of 2 Rep to illustrate.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Or you "pay" for the right to own those resources through consequential PvP; essentially you would be "paying Rep" for it.
What is the difference between a system that allows you to pay x Rep to engage in consequence free PvP, or a system that fines you x Rep as the consequence for simply engaging in PvP?
Being high-Rep is great, maintaining a dedication to high-Rep, be that at the cultural, settlement, or individual level is great and respectable. However, as Ryan has stated, being high-Rep probably is not and should not be the goal of the game. Sometimes it will be necessary to sacrifice Rep in the name of "winning". I think securing a resource worth fighting for is one such case.
The point of the reputation system is to limit griefing and meaningless agression IMHO. SYG would prevent the other way around, which is ninja-stealing for example.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Local Chat: Forencith [yells]: "Bringslite! Get off my lawn!!!"
...
...
Forencith's pet, Fido, inflicts 0.2 points of Damage to Bringlite's ankle.
Forencith looses 2 points of Rep for attacking Bringlite.Forencith's pet, Fido, inflicts 0.8 points of Damage to Bringlite's ankle.
Forencith looses 2 points of Rep for attacking Bringlite.Forencith's pet, Fido, inflicts 0.4 points of Damage to Bringlite's ankle.
Forencith looses 2 points of Rep for attacking Bringlite....
...
Forencith gains 8 points of Rep for the last 3 hours of play.
I have played as intended in a positive manner with a net gain of 2 Rep to illustrate.
Hold on there! #1: How low is my reputation if you are only losing 2 per bite? #2: I have not had my rabies shot, your dog may be infected now...
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Goblin Squad Member
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Reputation loss insinuates that you are doing something wrong.
I don't think I'd go that far.
Being Chaotic and Evil and Low Reputation indicates you've been bad, but only in the aggregate. I don't think it's applicable in each instance.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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@Decius
Mostly keeping undesired players away. And making sure people can 'ninja loot' nodes/corpses. The act of harvesting/looting should take longer than the SYG timer. It doesn't limit criminal behavior, but doesn't let people abuse in a non criminal fashion.
Someone comes up to you and starts spamming chat, or jumping around like an idiot: SYG.
It also functions as a duel system, which many people want.
I think every game I have played there have been players that nobody wanted around, but there was nothing we could do about it.
Why is it a good thing for players to be able to keep undesired characters away without a meaningful cost?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I can see merits to having a small rep hit for issuing a SYG, but it shouldn't be near the rep hit for cold blooded murder. It could also scale with the intruder's reputation, so keeping away low rep players would be small or free.
Agreed with your caveats. And that would give another incentive to being high-Rep, "claims for resources" by high-Rep individuals are cheaper. I would have it comparable though, a high-Rep booting a high-Rep is the same cost as a low-Rep booting a low-Rep.
What I am not sure about...it what rights does a successful SYG give you? I kind of have issue with free kills except in warfare and feuds. I also think one should be able to fight for resources that might be of value to them. What would be your objection to it working as you suggest, with the caveats quoted above...and the person(s) receiving the SYG only gets a half Rep hit for killing the issuer of the SYG?
In this system, it should still work as you suggest, the issuer of the SYG takes some risk...and full responsibility if the offender is willing to fight for rights to the "location". Again, the issuer only takes the very small hit for issuing the SYG (although I would say this hit is per individual), and receiver either leaves or essentially becomes a hostile target to the issuer.
EDIT: Initially I was in 100% disagreement with your suggestion, I am being convinced though...even with our difference in opinion about how Rep would/should work.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What would be your objection to it working as you suggest, with the caveats quoted above...and the person(s) receiving the SYG only gets a half Rep hit for killing the issuer of the SYG?
I never said they would get a rep hit for defending themselves. The SYG is an aggressive action.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What would be your objection to it working as you suggest, with the caveats quoted above...and the person(s) receiving the SYG only gets a half Rep hit for killing the issuer of the SYG?I never said they would get a rep hit for defending themselves. The SYG is an aggressive action.
No, no...say you and I are in rival (yet not at war) settlements. We are both running to claim a resource. We get there but you are able to SYG first. This costs you tiny amount of Rep.
Out choices then:
I leave, you own the location.
I don't leave, and essentially show hostile to you allowing you to kill me Rep free.
I don't leave, and you do not engage...if the location is of value, I should be able to engage you and fight you for it. I am willing to accept some Rep hit since I am the aggressor, but considering you have laid down a SYG, would you say I should take a full Rep hit for killing you and claiming the location once you are dead?
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Goblin Squad Member
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essentially SYG would give non-allies the 'intruder' flag for entering into your small temporarily claimed area (but not for already being there)?
In principle I agree. If you track only people entering after the zone is declared, the coding would be very trivial. This mechanic would make it much easier to guard stuff (afk people, corpses, city, RGO, POI), without making it harder for the raiders/bandits.
I agree there should be a cost - I suggest influence and that the SYG may work on a company level and not a private level.
The potential problem I see is when a company of 50 decide to SYG a larger area, but the '30 sec limit' would likely solve that. The other problem I see is when you make the SYG zone around a "neutral" caster fireballing other "neturals" who then become intruders if they go into melee range with him, but that can also be solved.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Make it like S&D - since it is a very similar mechanic. Faction based trained, which means there is always an opposition faction that can attack you. When used, you get a flag (criminal or heinous don't really fit, so something else) that allows anyone to attack them.
Since it has less utility than S&D (being one outcome is forcing characters to leave the areas as opposed to surrendering items), there would need to be certain differences to the S&D mechanic. Maybe only flag the SYG issuer if they're in a certain proximity to a settlement or POI?
I like the flavour of SYG though. Makes me think of a Cavalier or Knight type character.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The potential problem I see is when a company of 50 decide to SYG a larger area, but the '30 sec limit' would likely solve that. The other problem I see is when you make the SYG zone around a "neutral" caster fireballing other "neturals" who then become intruders if they go into melee range with him, but that can also be solved.
They would only be able to SYG one area all together. They would have to split up into small groups to cover more area. If you had 50 people doing 50 SYG, they would not be able to help each other.
Can you elaborate more on that 2nd part, I'm not following you.
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Goblin Squad Member
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SYG-Man stands next to Fireball-Man (not in the same team), who throws long range spells at Victim-Man. Victim-man runs up to Fireball-Man to retailate; as soon as he can, SYG-Man starts up a SYG around Fireball-Man's postiion, directed at Victim-Man. Victim-Man has the choice of running away, trying to kill Fireball-Man and get out before 30 seconds, or fighting Fireball-Man plus SYG-Man and whatever forces are in either party.
Of course, Fireball-Man in this scenario would take rep hits; I'd expect Fireball-Man to just be a throwaway alt type person. The idea is that SYG-Man can force you into (almost) free combat by pestering/threatening you with long-range attacks from Fireball-Man.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The potential problem I see is when a company of 50 decide to SYG a larger area, but the '30 sec limit' would likely solve that. The other problem I see is when you make the SYG zone around a "neutral" caster fireballing other "neturals" who then become intruders if they go into melee range with him, but that can also be solved.They would only be able to SYG one area all together. They would have to split up into small groups to cover more area. If you had 50 people doing 50 SYG, they would not be able to help each other.
Can you elaborate more on that 2nd part, I'm not following you.
How would this tie into expanding involvement? I am in a party, I throw out a SYG, target attacks me or does not leave and I attack.
Is my "party" now involved?
Is the target's?
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Goblin Squad Member
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SYG-Man stands next to Fireball-Man (not in the same team), who throws long range spells at Victim-Man. Victim-man runs up to Fireball-Man to retailate; as soon as he can, SYG-Man starts up a SYG around Fireball-Man's postiion, directed at Victim-Man. Victim-Man has the choice of running away, trying to kill Fireball-Man and get out before 30 seconds, or fighting Fireball-Man plus SYG-Man and whatever forces are in either party.
Of course, Fireball-Man in this scenario would take rep hits; I'd expect Fireball-Man to just be a throwaway alt type person. The idea is that SYG-Man can force you into (almost) free combat by pestering/threatening you with long-range attacks from Fireball-Man.
If Fireball man is a throw-away, he will be dead before the 30 second timer. Unless this person has spent $100 on training a character that is only going to be used a few times before they become too low rep to be useful. Fringe case, not worth consideration.
If Fireball-man was in a party, they are all being flagged as criminals and losing rep. And would have to jump on Victim-man, losing more rep in order to save Fireball-Man. SYG-man still wouldn't get to attack anything.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I like the idea of this.
How do you see it being abused?
One potential for abuse (mostly applies if the SYG is centered on the person who initiates the SYG, which seems to make sense): A group of players (how many is not important, a few or a lot), all surround you, target you, and press SYG at the same time. You have 30 seconds to leave the area. Maybe you are fast enough, but maybe you are not fast enough to get out of ALL of the SYG areas in that 30 seconds (obviously would depend on lots of factors here). If you’re not fast enough, or you’re in some physically restricted area that prevents you from getting out, they can attack you w/o rep loss.
Perhaps if you’re able to click an acknowledgement that you will comply (e.g., “Yep, I recognize that you have SYG’d me and I’m leaving now”) or that you won’t comply (e.g., your SYG button, as you indicated). If you acknowledge that you’ll leave, but you don’t leave, or if you don’t acknowledge either way, perhaps you suffer some rep loss that continues to accumulate as long as you’re in the area.
Another potential for abuse: A group of folks basically run you out of an area by chasing you down and SYG’ing you when they get close enough. I could envision a situation where 3 or 4 folks chase someone across the map into an ambush or just to annoy them. I’m not sure why someone would do this or find it fun, but I think it’s possible.
A thought: If you SYG an area, as indicated in above posts, if someone comes within 50 meters perhaps they get a little pop-up that shows them that the area has been SYG’d (kind of akin to a virtual “no trespassing” sign posted around the area). I’m not sure this is a good idea, though, because it may indicate you’re near something good, so as a harvester I’m not inclined to do this if I want to try to keep a low profile. In either case, I would NOT want to see any indication of WHO is doing the SYG’ing or HOW many active SYGs there are for an area (from multiple people, for instance). That provides too much information for potential intruders. In addition, these SYG areas would have to expire once the player who created them leaves the area (probably that 50 meter area) to keep folks from SYG’ing huge tracts of land.
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Goblin Squad Member
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One potential for abuse (mostly applies if the SYG is centered on the person who initiates the SYG, which seems to make sense): A group of players (how many is not important, a few or a lot), all surround you, target you, and press SYG at the same time. You have 30 seconds to leave the area. Maybe you are fast enough, but maybe you are not fast enough to get out of ALL of the SYG areas in that 30 seconds (obviously would depend on lots of factors here). If you’re not fast enough, or you’re in some physically restricted area that prevents you from getting out, they can attack you w/o rep loss.
The idea is to make the area reasonable to get out of. Everyone who SYG's you would have to be within this range. You simply pick a direction and run that way.
Perhaps if you’re able to click an acknowledgement that you will comply (e.g., “Yep, I recognize that you have SYG’d me and I’m leaving now”) or that you won’t comply (e.g., your SYG button, as you indicated). If you acknowledge that you’ll leave, but you don’t leave, or if you don’t acknowledge either way, perhaps you suffer some rep loss that continues to accumulate as long as you’re in the area.
That defeats the purpose, the idea is to get someone away from you, they could be scouting. Anyway, as stated above, as long as you leave reasonably soon, you will get out of the no-zone.
Another potential for abuse: A group of folks basically run you out of an area by chasing you down and SYG’ing you when they get close enough. I could envision a situation where 3 or 4 folks chase someone across the map into an ambush or just to annoy them. I’m not sure why someone would do this or find it fun, but I think it’s possible.
The person being chased would arrive in an area first, so they could not be SYD'd by the pursuers.
A thought: If you SYG an area, as indicated in above posts, if someone comes within 50 meters perhaps they get a little pop-up that shows them that the area has been SYG’d (kind of akin to a virtual “no trespassing” sign posted around the area). I’m not sure this is a good idea, though, because it may indicate you’re near something good, so as a harvester I’m not inclined to do this if I want to try to keep a low profile. In either case, I would NOT want to see any indication of WHO is doing the SYG’ing or HOW many active SYGs there are for an area (from...
You don't SYG an area, you SYG against a person. This isn't a mechanic to tell everyone coming into the zone "This is my spot," it is to shoo away specific people. What you are describing is an entirely different mechanic.
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Goblin Squad Member
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How would this tie into expanding involvement? I am in a party, I throw out a SYG, target attacks me or does not leave and I attack.
Is my "party" now involved?
Is the target's?
Just as with a criminal attack on someone, your party is jointly responsible for the attack, and their party can jointly retaliate.
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Goblin Squad Member
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How many times could it be used in a given period?
As many times as you want against unique targets. There would be no reason to use it against the same target over and over again.
What if I use 20 seconds, run out and come back?
Re-entering the area is just the same as not leaving it. The amount of time this zone would persist would be up to the devs.
If the target is individual, how does it work with my party mates?
All your party mates can attack them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My instinct is to not like it because it is another way around the meaningful choice of: I want this area, guy's gear, "he must not pass", etc... but is it worth a loss of reputation?
However, I am finding myself intrigued by it enough to not shoot it down without seeing it discussed further. By better thinkers than myself, of course! :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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My instinct is to not like it because it is another way around the meaningful choice of: I want this area, guy's gear, "he must not pass", etc... but is it worth a loss of reputation?
However, I am finding myself intrigued by it enough to not shoot it down without seeing it discussed further. By better thinkers than myself, of course! :)
On a COMPLETE derailment:
Bringslite, is your name Brings-lite (as in Bringer of Light) or Bring-slite (as in Bringer of Slite/pain/tearing)?
:)
It's just been bugging me for a while so I figured I'd ask :)
sorry all!
</derailment >
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Goblin Squad Member
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My instinct is to not like it because it is another way around the meaningful choice of: I want this area, guy's gear, "he must not pass", etc... but is it worth a loss of reputation?
You can't edit to OP so the updated Idea doesn't exist.
There would be reputation loss, but not nearly the same as straight up murder.
This is not a "road block" tool, you can still walk through the area, you just have to get out of it within the time limit.
I'm not sure how this could be used to obtain someone's gear against their will.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My instinct is to not like it because it is another way around the meaningful choice of: I want this area, guy's gear, "he must not pass", etc... but is it worth a loss of reputation?
However, I am finding myself intrigued by it enough to not shoot it down without seeing it discussed further. By better thinkers than myself, of course! :)
On a COMPLETE derailment:
Bringslite, is your name Brings-lite (as in Bringer of Light) or Bring-slite (as in Bringer of Slite/pain/tearing)?
:)
It's just been bugging me for a while so I figured I'd ask :)
sorry all!
</derailment >
Hmmm... While I admit that I am not always nice, I hope that I am not perceived as a "Bringer of Slights". That would be VERY much counter to how I perceive myself...
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hmmm... While I admit that I am not always nice, I hope that I am not perceived as a "Bringer of Slights". That would be VERY much counter to how I perceive myself...My instinct is to not like it because it is another way around the meaningful choice of: I want this area, guy's gear, "he must not pass", etc... but is it worth a loss of reputation?
However, I am finding myself intrigued by it enough to not shoot it down without seeing it discussed further. By better thinkers than myself, of course! :)
On a COMPLETE derailment:
Bringslite, is your name Brings-lite (as in Bringer of Light) or Bring-slite (as in Bringer of Slite/pain/tearing)?
:)
It's just been bugging me for a while so I figured I'd ask :)
sorry all!
</derailment >
Also counter to how I perceive you based on your posts. Still, names can be deceiving and don't judge a book by it's cover and all that stuff.
;)
Maybe it's Brings-lite as in, Bringer of the Lite Beers? I'd be ok with that right about now...
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hmmm... While I admit that I am not always nice, I hope that I am not perceived as a "Bringer of Slights". That would be VERY much counter to how I perceive myself...My instinct is to not like it because it is another way around the meaningful choice of: I want this area, guy's gear, "he must not pass", etc... but is it worth a loss of reputation?
However, I am finding myself intrigued by it enough to not shoot it down without seeing it discussed further. By better thinkers than myself, of course! :)
On a COMPLETE derailment:
Bringslite, is your name Brings-lite (as in Bringer of Light) or Bring-slite (as in Bringer of Slite/pain/tearing)?
:)
It's just been bugging me for a while so I figured I'd ask :)
sorry all!
</derailment >
Oh, wait. The correct answer is I will bring great pain and suffering on all who dare oppose my interests!
When I am not busy with that, I try and bring my feeble insights here for dissection. ;)
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hmmm... While I admit that I am not always nice, I hope that I am not perceived as a "Bringer of Slights". That would be VERY much counter to how I perceive myself...
Oh, wait. The correct answer is I will bring great pain and suffering on all who dare oppose my interests!When I am not busy with that, I try and bring my feeble insights here for dissection. ;)
Lol
Well, I think you hold your own well against the 'Forum Bandits' (who shall remain unnamed); so you must not be THAT old and feeble :P
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hmmm... While I admit that I am not always nice, I hope that I am not perceived as a "Bringer of Slights". That would be VERY much counter to how I perceive myself...
Oh, wait. The correct answer is I will bring great pain and suffering on all who dare oppose my interests!When I am not busy with that, I try and bring my feeble insights here for dissection. ;)
Lol
Well, I think you hold your own well against the 'Forum Bandits' (who shall remain unnamed); so you must not be THAT old and feeble :P
I am glad that you think so and flattered! I have not really been around that long. Was a lurker for a few months at least.
FYI, my original "handle" (Bringslight) was for the old discussions for the PFRPG when it was being formed. Only posted once or twice, I believe. When I came back for PfO, I could not recall my password. As lazy as I am, I just made a new screen name rather than do the steps to retrieve the old!
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Goblin Squad Member
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My instinct is to not like it because it is another way around the meaningful choice of: I want this area, guy's gear, "he must not pass", etc... but is it worth a loss of reputation?You can't edit to OP so the updated Idea doesn't exist.
There would be reputation loss, but not nearly the same as straight up murder.
This is not a "road block" tool, you can still walk through the area, you just have to get out of it within the time limit.
I'm not sure how this could be used to obtain someone's gear against their will.
Having a "cost" is a good selling point. So (as modified now) it would be about keeping someone out of a PVE or harvesting area. Primarily, at least, preventing them from coming and capitalizing on your work to clear it first?
Although it seems like a limited use system for the work to build, if they had the time/resources, I would get behind it. The radius of effect would need to be larger, wouldn't it?