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So, last week I was playing in PFS and a Oracle pulled out a M size black dragon skeleton (BDS) and used animate dead. This BDS destroyed everything. I asked how he obtained the BDS and he said bones are mundane items and they are in the core book. When I looked through the core book I couldn't find anything on dragon bone materials...
This is my question:
Where can you purchase dragon bones in PFS, are they in a specific book, or what?!
-Thanks!
No you cannot purchase skeletons, and you cannot carry them over from scenario to scenario, he is in error and your GM should have told him so. He is required to have the books at hand for anything his character has so he should be able to show them GM where the Black Dragon skeleton comes from, of course he won't because its not available.
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Hmm, I wonder... if I saw this kind of thing (outright cheating) between a GM and a player and said something to them about it and they both think it's in the rules, but no one has a way of proving it, and they continue on with it, what should I do? Do I go to a VO?
Never attribute to malice what can be attributed to ignorance.
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When I pull up to a table with some of my characters that use lots of different things and tend to be much more complicated than the average character, some DMs just allow me to do whatever. I try my best to police myself as best I can, but I could see people taking advantage of that as well.
Many GMs do not have the time to learn so much new stuff, and let the players do things themselves to keep the game rolling.
I admit I had players convince me about wrong rules when I was brand new that significantly changed the game.
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Whilst its possible ignorance can be involved, the fact that the guy is using Animate dead (which is not the lowest level of spells) means they have some game experience and a fair few scenarios under their belt. More than enough time to know the rules. I lean towards the malice over Ignorance (as BigNorse puts it)
I would hate to see the rest of the backpack he used to just "pull out" the dragon skeleton!
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@bobhope69
Thanks for bringing this up. PFS works best if there is a degree of self policing.
First - players should know what is / isn't allowed. If this fails
Second - there is the GM who should stop mistakes. It is one of the burdens we carry. If this fails as well
Third - there is the community. If it is too egregious then I hope more people will follow this example and either speak out at the table or will post it here
Mike and the VO's can't be everywhere.
So thanks again for posting and I hope you have more fun in the next game
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It's a material component for a spell, with no listed cost. I've been told I CANT take skeletons with me from scenario to scenario because they are mundane items, and don't have a price listed anywhere. So basically, animate dead is almost useless in society play. Thanks for clarifying, I tried to find something saying I couldn't do this, but didn't. This clears it up a bit, I shall no longer make dragons.
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It's a material component for a spell, with no listed cost. I've been told I CANT take skeletons with me from scenario to scenario because they are mundane items, and don't have a price listed anywhere. So basically, animate dead is almost useless in society play. Thanks for clarifying, I tried to find something saying I couldn't do this, but didn't. This clears it up a bit, I shall no longer make dragons.
I'm pretty sure bones are the target of animate dead. Not a cost-less component found in all spell component pouches.
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It's a material component for a spell, with no listed cost. I've been told I CANT take skeletons with me from scenario to scenario because they are mundane items, and don't have a price listed anywhere. So basically, animate dead is almost useless in society play. Thanks for clarifying, I tried to find something saying I couldn't do this, but didn't. This clears it up a bit, I shall no longer make dragons.I'm pretty sure bones are the target of animate dead. Not a cost-less component found in all spell component pouches.
Yep.
PRD
Animate Dead
School necromancy [evil]; Level cleric 3, sorcerer/wizard 4
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (an onyx gem worth at least 25 gp per Hit Die of the undead)
Range touch
Targets one or more corpses touched
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
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Mike and the VO's can't be everywhere.
Being a VO is far far from a guarantee of rules knowledge. One of my local VO's usually has the least rules knowledge at a table, and is asking other players when questions come up. Not saying he's not fun to play with, but if the party wanted to they could stomp him with rules cheating.
Just like GM stars and running a good game. I've played quite a few games now with a five star GM who is mediocre at best. I recently played 2 games with a guy who had never GM'd a game in his life and it was some of the best storytelling I've had in PFS.
My experience is someone's "ranked" expertise has little to do with their actual knowledge or skill at running a game.
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It's a material component for a spell, with no listed cost. I've been told I CANT take skeletons with me from scenario to scenario because they are mundane items, and don't have a price listed anywhere. So basically, animate dead is almost useless in society play. Thanks for clarifying, I tried to find something saying I couldn't do this, but didn't. This clears it up a bit, I shall no longer make dragons.
Quite the contrary. If you carry around the onyx, just wait until after your first fight and presto, you have your undead minions.
Just hope the rest of the party is fine with it. ;)
EDIT: And answered by BNW ... that'll teach me to respond before scanning the full thread.
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It's a material component for a spell, with no listed cost. I've been told I CANT take skeletons with me from scenario to scenario because they are mundane items, and don't have a price listed anywhere. So basically, animate dead is almost useless in society play. Thanks for clarifying, I tried to find something saying I couldn't do this, but didn't. This clears it up a bit, I shall no longer make dragons.
Its not worthless, though it is much less powerful than in a home game. You'll have entire scenarios where there won't be anything worth raising. I can think a of at least two scenarios where the first encounter gives you something so good though that it can nearly solo the rest of the scenario.
The big problem is animate dead requires "an onyx gem worth at least 25 gp per Hit Die of the undead", which means you need a lot of onyx, or you'll be wasting a lot of 25 GP's animating things you may only have for one encounter. If you can get blood money that helps a lot.
Also, try and play more modules. You'd get a lot more value out of animating in a module, much more worth your resource investment, which isn't small by any stretch of the imagination. I suspect a necro spends more on disposables than a gunslinger.
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I can't keep anything animated beyond the one scenario since permanent effects end, and I can't keep skeletons or other corpses from one scenario to the next either. I already know about the onyx cost, because I will have to buy different value onyx gems ahead of time and guess at a creature's HD when I want to raise it. Since here is no price listed for a skeleton, I can't buy it in PFS rules to my understanding, unless someone can post a source stating otherwise. Also, for pulling it out, skeleton is in a sack, sack is in a handy haversack. Move action to retrieve the sack, free action to drop the sack, spilling it's contents, standard action to cast animate dead. It's the only way it's possible to do it in combat without a full corpse being lugged around, which is a hassle and far heavier. As far as consumables go, at least one third of my total GP if not more will have been spent on just onyx by the time the character retires.
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I don't see why you wouldn't be able to pick one up in a scenario and keep it forever.
Well the PFs staff created a list of spells that carry over, and it is a small list to keep things smiple.
Plus you should see all the brouhaha about undead raises/commanding necros teamign with paladins and the silliness of people not gettign along being jerks.
I don't see why you wouldn't be able to pick one up in a scenario and keep it forever.
Items you pick up tend to disappear into a void, confiscated by the pathfinder society no matter how hard you tried to sneak by them with your skills and sold back to you for an enormous price. Trust me, I'd have much better doors and decorations in my house if otherwise.
Actually you can nab pretty much anything as long as its just roleplay and not a mechanical benefit. If I remember right anyway.
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Sumedocin, where do you get the idea that dropping a handy haversack will spill it's contents? The description says you have to put your hand into it and pull out the desired item.
Pretty much it will cost a move action to pull out a bone of the skeleton. At 206 bones, that's a lot of move actions (I'll round up to 200 since who cares about the ear bones). :)
One maybe can get away with it if they come out strung all the bones together like some anatomy models. Good luck asking your party to wait a day or two just manufacture your skelly only to be smashed in the first round of combat.
He said the bones were in a sack, inside the haversack. So, he retrieves the sack with the bones in it, then dumps it out.
Hmm, I wonder... if I saw this kind of thing (outright cheating) between a GM and a player and said something to them about it and they both think it's in the rules, but no one has a way of proving it, and they continue on with it, what should I do? Do I go to a VO?Never attribute to malice what can be attributed to ignorance.
Hey, that's my motto. I hear people say it around me all the time.
Anyways, as long as he has Profession (paleontologist), this seems perfectly sensible to me. As long as the party can hold the enemy back for an hour or so.
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It's a material component for a spell, with no listed cost. I've been told I CANT take skeletons with me from scenario to scenario because they are mundane items, and don't have a price listed anywhere. So basically, animate dead is almost useless in society play. Thanks for clarifying, I tried to find something saying I couldn't do this, but didn't. This clears it up a bit, I shall no longer make dragons.
typically the corpse is one that you either just made... or dig up. It is not one found in a spell component pouch. It is one of those things. So there is no reason you can't use animate dead IN a PFS scenario as long as you use a fresh corpse you either create by killing someone or something, or you find one in a tomb or grave.
Bringing a corpse/skeleton with you as a spell component.. is something you can't do.
He said the bones were in a sack, inside the haversack. So, he retrieves the sack with the bones in it, then dumps it out.
Does Animate Dead specify it re-assembles the body?
No, it does not. In fact, it requires the body to be "mostly intact".
So there you go. At best the necromancer will have a pile of helplessly twitching individual bones.
-j
He said the bones were in a sack, inside the haversack. So, he retrieves the sack with the bones in it, then dumps it out.Does Animate Dead specify it re-assembles the body?
No, it does not. In fact, it requires the body to be "mostly intact".
So there you go. At best the necromancer will have a pile of helplessly twitching individual bones.
-j
That's when you take a point in Craft(Tailoring) or (Taxidermy).
Sure. I suppose the enemy combatants will patiently wait as you take the time to assemble the body?
I mean modern palentologists using powertools, lifting equipment, and teams of helpers take weeks to assemble dinosaur skeletons. I suppose a fantasy character with likely low strength shouldn't have too much trouble putting a dragon body back together in the heat of combat, right?
-j
Sure. I suppose the enemy combatants will patiently wait as you take the time to assemble the body?
Hmm... What if I put points into Perform(Tailoring) instead so I can give them a show while they wait? I mean, I don't want to bore them or anything*. May as well give them and the party a dance and a show and maybe a light dinner while I do all this.
* Okay, unless I can bore them to death. Two birds one stone!
He said the bones were in a sack, inside the haversack. So, he retrieves the sack with the bones in it, then dumps it out.Does Animate Dead specify it re-assembles the body?
No, it does not. In fact, it requires the body to be "mostly intact".
So there you go. At best the necromancer will have a pile of helplessly twitching individual bones.
Interesting interpretation... where do you get the idea that it doesn't?
For that matter where did the 'mostly intact' come from? I'll admit I haven't read much in ultimate magic or ever focused on necromancers... but just going off the Animate Dead spell...
School necromancy [evil]; Level cleric 3, sorcerer/wizard 4
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (an onyx gem worth at least 25 gp per Hit Die of the undead)
Range touch
Targets one or more corpses touched
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance noThis spell turns corpses into undead skeletons or zombies (see the Pathfinder RPG Bestiary) that obey your spoken commands.
The undead can be made to follow you, or they can be made to
remain in an area and attack any creature (or just a specific kind of
creature) entering the place. They remain animated until they are
destroyed. A destroyed skeleton or zombie can’t be animated again.Regardless of the type of undead you create with this spell, you
can’t create more HD of undead than twice your caster level with a
single casting of animate dead. The desecrate spell doubles this limit.The undead you create remain under your control indefinitely.
No matter how many times you use this spell, however, you can
control only 4 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level. If you
exceed this number, all the newly created creatures fall under your
control, and any excess undead from previous castings become
uncontrolled. You choose which creatures are released. Undead you
control through the Command Undead feat do not count toward
this limit.
I suppose there could be some nitpicking with the term 'corpse'... but frankly, skeletons have always been 'held together' by magic, not muscle and cartiledge...
Casting time on the spell is a standard action, and I don't see anything in there about any preparation or planning ahead of time before casting the spell, nor do I see anything about the length of time the corpse was dead. It could be bandit #1 from the last attack... or the bones of the Ancient King of Whatever tomb your in...
/shrug.
I think the issue here, has to do with 'where' he got the skeleton... not just in him animating it.