Nimble Striker and Charge / Cleave / Lunge


Rules Questions


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Hello,

Looking for feedback on feat combinations I've working towards on my Catfolk. I'm looking to use the Catfolk racial feat Nimble Striker in conjunction with a Lunge+Cleave or Lunge+Charge combo. The way I read the Nimble Striker benefit "You do not take a –2 penalty to AC when you use the Cleave feat, Lunge feat, or when you charge." is such that the use of any or all of those skills in any legal combination is that no -2AC penalties are incurred from their use, taking what could be a -4AC penalty and and completely wiping out said AC penalty if this racial feat is acquired.

In the group I'm playing with, the GM I'm playing with only wants to negate one of the two AC penalties, for a total of -2AC penalty instead of the entire -4AC penalty, whereas my reading has me at no AC penalty. I'd like a second opinion ,and thanks in advance.


You are correct, if you combine Charge+Lunge or Cleave+Lunge (you cannot combine Cleave+Charge) your AC penalty is zero.

In short, for you, Cleave has a penalty of zero, Lunge has a penalty of zero, and Charge has a penalty of zero. Zero+Zero = Zero.

The feat Nimble Striker does not state to add up the total penalties and then reduce them by 2. That is what your GM is wanting to do.


The word "OR" in in the English language is unfortunately ambiguous, so any ruling would be technically correct based on one such interpretation. I would argue that the feat in this case applies three times, once for each ability as it is used, and thus eliminates all three penalties. I would be completely unsurprised if other GM's ruled otherwise. It may sound a bit obtuse, but interpreting "OR" as exclusive means that the feat could only be applied once if a charging-cleaving-lunge is used, thus leaving you with only one of the three penalties negated.


Yes, but in this particular case the "or" is pretty clearly being used to identify three different recipients of the effect that "You do not take a -2 penalty to AC when you use...".


It's a problem with the English language, that the word "OR" does not explicitly distinguish between its inclusive and exclusive forms, leaving the reader to interpret the meaning from context. Sadly, this means you end up arguing in circles if two readers come to different interpretations. I'm a programmer by trade, so understanding and clarifying the difference is actually really important to my day job. Maybe that makes me a little retentive when it comes to your more colloquial speech, but I've become very aware of the fact that people often don't think about the ambiguity in the word "OR"; what one person means and another interprets can be very different things.

I don't mean to be pedantic, and I agree with you on this ruling. Just saying that I wouldn't be surprised if there are a fair number of GM's out there who disagree.


Obviously we're stuck with the wording provided, but if I take the shortened benefit and expand it into it's longer form you get:

"You do not take a -2 penalty when you use the Cleave feat or when you use the Lunge feat or when you charge."

That to me, means that there is no AC penalty from the use of Cleave, Lunge, or Charge, regardless of any combination thereof (with the exception of the unusable Charge+Cleave combo, to which I was referring with all "legal combinations"). I'd hate to gain a 2AC penalty to a grammar debuff :(

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